User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:24:34 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The scout rifle was meant to be used by a military scout. It just happens to be a good ranch rifle. With a ten round magazine and a spare ten round magazine carried in the buttstock, just grab it out of the truck and it can handle most rifle situations nicely. Cooper said if you could not afford to have a scout built, just get the Ruger M77 Lightweight 308 and put a low power scope on it. Still good advice, IMHO. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:27:18 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And since then, end of the world and UN army invasion fantasies have driven seemingly 87% of purchases in this forum. With that in mind, dismissing the Scout concept as unrealistic is a bit laughable. Besides, all this mystery UN army has to do is force people to eat from chain restaurants and all of the resistance will be too sick to fight. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:30:13 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not saying he didn't say it, but everything I read said it should kill everything one might face in the wild in North America. Africa wasn't really part of it. pack into a boat, car, or airplane, powerful enough for any targets shot of pachyderms, and easily provisioned throughout the world. It is ideally adapted to the snap shot, and is quite able to group well into the vital zone of a 200-pound target out to around 400 paces… under field conditions.”—The Scout Rifle: Some Simple Principles – Guns & Ammo – July 1988. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:30:18 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/28/ar-15-wielding-man-kills-3-during-okla-home-invasi Now find anyone who shot a Nazi or a dinosaur with a scout rifle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:31:02 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't that dude fire just a few rounds? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:33:34 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cooper was a fuck'n IDIOT, and so were his LAME BRAIN ideas! WINDBAG at best! 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:35:42 AM EDT
[#7]
Always liked them, but didn't know they had an aluminum receiver.
Not sure how I feel about that on a bolt gun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:36:41 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Am I in before me  
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:36:58 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not from a Steyr Scout he didn't |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:38:31 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Always liked them, but didn't know they had an aluminum receiver. Not sure how I feel about that on a bolt gun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:40:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He was too poor to use a SS. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:43:16 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm too poor to buy mags for one! Although with manufacturing moving to alabama I am tempted to finally get an Austrian one. I almost bought the heavier barrel version, I forget the name, the "elite"? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:53:18 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
“It’s most outstanding characteristic is handiness. It is light, compact, and user friendly… It is easy to carry, convenient to pack into a boat, car, or airplane, powerful enough for any targets shot of pachyderms, and easily provisioned throughout the world. It is ideally adapted to the snap shot, and is quite able to group well into the vital zone of a 200-pound target out to around 400 paces… under field conditions.”—The Scout Rifle: Some Simple Principles – Guns & Ammo – July 1988. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not saying he didn't say it, but everything I read said it should kill everything one might face in the wild in North America. Africa wasn't really part of it. pack into a boat, car, or airplane, powerful enough for any targets shot of pachyderms, and easily provisioned throughout the world. It is ideally adapted to the snap shot, and is quite able to group well into the vital zone of a 200-pound target out to around 400 paces… under field conditions.”—The Scout Rifle: Some Simple Principles – Guns & Ammo – July 1988. The usual target size was stated as 200 kilograms, and the rationale usually given was any potential North American game - or threat (recognizing that places like Africa were unique situations). |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:53:46 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you guys would get on the SS train I bet Magpul would release a Pmag!! |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:55:13 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Short of a pachyderm" and "200 lb target" offers quite a gap. Lots of targets between 200 lbs and elephant. The usual target size was stated as 200 kilograms, and the rationale usually given was any potential North American game - or threat (recognizing that places like Africa were unique situations). |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:55:55 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those who deny the qualities of this masterpiece are beyond help. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:58:02 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of the Ruger's advantages is magpul mags |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:58:59 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cooper was a fuck'n IDIOT, and so were his LAME BRAIN ideas! WINDBAG at best! 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 8:59:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of the Ruger's advantages is magpul mags |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 9:01:18 AM EDT
[#20]
The Canadian army scout costs more than the Steyr. Unfortunately only poor people get stuck shooting at tigers and pirates with the same rifle.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 9:05:12 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ha ha you sound like an attorney "short of an elephant" means not as tall as one! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"Short of a pachyderm" and "200 lb target" offers quite a gap. Lots of targets between 200 lbs and elephant. The usual target size was stated as 200 kilograms, and the rationale usually given was any potential North American game - or threat (recognizing that places like Africa were unique situations). Your bit does raise another good point - availability of ammo. This makes the talk of Grendel, etc. a bit of a stretch. I was invited to go on a red stag hunt in Hungary a few years ago. Should I have taken them up on it, a scout rifle would have been easy to import and find ammo for. An AR with a 6.5 would have been more than a challenge. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 9:10:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While Cooper may have been a smart man (I don't know) and may have had some good ideas, his pseudo-intellectual, "look at me, I'm a philosopher!" style of writing was vain, annoying, and turned some good points into egotistical dick beating blather once it hit paper. Reading his writing is painful and reminds me of reading a comic book or cartoon. That was the style of writing the gun rag publishers wanted, so that is what the writers delivered if they wanted to get paid. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 9:12:56 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You know, when I got rid of my last AR, I thought well WTF I have all this 223 ammo, what am I going to shoot it with? I have always liked the concept of a all purpose rifle, and thought the Scout looked cool. So I figured what the hell? You are right, in California I could choose a crippled MSR, a Mini-14, or a bolt action. The bolt action won. Next up, I'm going to get a .308 Scout. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If I lived in CA, that would probably be my favorite too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 9:14:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of the other advantages of the Ruger is if you didn't bring kettlebells, you can still work out.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 9:14:52 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They were cheap. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 9:21:11 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of the other advantages of the Ruger is if you didn't bring kettlebells, you can still work out. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 10:01:02 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's sweet, but... My AR does that very well. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 10:04:26 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a chance to buy one years ago that had been autographed by Jeff Cooper. It was being sold as a used gun, they wanted $2,200 for it. Too rich for my blood. I'm guessing he signed more than one of those rifles back in the day but I wonder what the odds are that rifle you saw is the same one I saw sitting in his lap at that convention? |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 10:09:54 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That (modern variables) is kind of what turned the tide IMO. I don't agree with everything Cooper, but I think he would have been pretty stoked on a 6.5G carbine with an ACOG. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 10:12:47 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only among the |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 10:13:39 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While Cooper may have been a smart man (I don't know) and may have had some good ideas, his pseudo-intellectual, "look at me, I'm a philosopher!" style of writing was vain, annoying, and turned some good points into egotistical dick beating blather once it hit paper. Reading his writing is painful and reminds me of reading a comic book or cartoon. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 10:16:17 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think you are dead on about the variables. A combat tough 1x6 was unheard of when Cooper envisioned the rifle. In the standard position with a ranging reticle you can go from his moving medium range targets to pretty long range easily. I imagine a modern scout rifle as a short action, 18" barreled (suppressor capable), light weight rifle with a detachable magazine and a 1x6 variable scope in 6.5 Creedmore. Or a mini version on one of the Howa mini actions in 6.5 Grendel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 10:27:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why? I don't handicap myself with a goofy rifle. I got reach and lots of it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 10:29:47 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd like to have a scout and put a 1-4x on it |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 10:59:51 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is an excellent choice and really is what will put the forward mount out of business completely. I only really like the scout concept for rifles that can be fed with stripper clips. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 11:02:43 AM EDT
[#36]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 11:04:16 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But can you even pick up that same animal in your long range optic at 30 or so yards in dense brush? Newer 1-6x optics are making this possible but the lower power fixed optics were the mainstay during Cooper's heyday. I prefer 2-7x EER for a scout now. Optic is 4.5-14. 
Here is a deer at 15 yds. 
While a light weight .308 might be just right for some people the scout optic is just so limiting. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 11:14:09 AM EDT
[#38]
I have a Steyr AUG and a Steyr ProHunter 25-06, but no Steyr Scout.
Steyr makes a ProHunter with a 20" barrel which is only 1 inch longer than the Scout and doesn't have the goofy bolt. ETA: And $800 cheaper. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 11:23:44 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some pictures of a moose at 60 yds. Optic is 4.5-14. http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/Reticle/81e487d5.jpg http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/Reticle/681440e5.jpg Here is a deer at 15 yds. http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/Reticle/DSCN0479_zpsjls7hdvy.jpg While a light weight .308 might be just right for some people the scout optic is just so limiting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
But can you even pick up that same animal in your long range optic at 30 or so yards in dense brush? Newer 1-6x optics are making this possible but the lower power fixed optics were the mainstay during Cooper's heyday. I prefer 2-7x EER for a scout now. Optic is 4.5-14. http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/Reticle/81e487d5.jpg http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/Reticle/681440e5.jpg Here is a deer at 15 yds. http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/Reticle/DSCN0479_zpsjls7hdvy.jpg While a light weight .308 might be just right for some people the scout optic is just so limiting. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 11:26:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But, in thread after thread, we read about turning other rifles "into scouts" (impossible, usually, but usually this means "I put a long eye relieve forward mounted scope on it") or how they like the scout concept but the scope is a deal breaker. the weight is a huge feature of the scout concept My 700 pseudo scout missed the weight by about a pound used a 700 Youth in 308 , B square mount , Leupold scout scope , QRW rings , Williams receiver sight , galco ching sling It worked well but a steyr scout , or a model 7 in a aftermarket lightweight stock is a thing of beauty to handle and cannot be appreciated until one holds it in their hands . I have been watching for cheap Model 7 with open sights to do exactly that , add a lightweight stock and small variable scope |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 11:32:45 AM EDT
[#41]
Here is a link to the original scout rifle article. The article was published in September 1985. The October 2014 date is the reprint date.
A scout rifle is nothing more than a relatively light, relatively short bolt action hunting rifle. Forward-mounting the scope makes it different. Cooper cites three advantages over a traditional scope mount: 1) easier stripper clip reloading; 2) less obstructed field of view; 3) easier carrying. All of these "advantages" are questionable. 1) Cooper chose a bolt action because a rifleman shouldn't have to shoot much. Well, then, why do we care about reloading with stripper clips? 2) A scope with a low power (2x or less) low end is perfectly fine for quick, close shots with both eyes open. Moving the scope forward doesn't do much, if anything, for you in this regard. 3) The rifle should be slung most of the time. If you're carrying it with two hands, scope position doesn't matter. People don't walk around carrying a rifle with one hand much at all. That's a silly reason to mount a scope in a sub-optimal position. Shorter, barreled, lighter weight bolt guns with a good scope with low bottom end magnification are awesome. There's just no good enough reason to mount the scope out over the barrel instead of over the receiver. The disadvantages far outweigh the advantages, if there really are even any advantages. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 11:46:05 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
+1 Like him or hate him The guy laid the foundation for pretty much all modern combat shooting Granted yes he did not invent all of it but he recognized it , organized it , and promoted it against extreme institutional inertia for decades . Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
CoC prevents me from ripping you from stem to stern. Like him or hate him The guy laid the foundation for pretty much all modern combat shooting Granted yes he did not invent all of it but he recognized it , organized it , and promoted it against extreme institutional inertia for decades . but there is no doubt, Col. Cooper is the closest thing the gun community has to its own version of Jesus. Hugely influential. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 12:09:24 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For the 87th time, there is no one "scout optic." The fixation on the scope, and the marketing frenzy to take any heavy ass, too long rifle, scoot the scope forward of the breech, and call it a "scout," has jack and shit to do with Cooper, or the concept in question. Cooper called the low power forward mounted scope a "scout scope". |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 12:12:31 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wasnt the Colonel a huge critic of 5.56 for military use? I understand his concept for a scout rifle. Even with today's materials tech, it's hard to have a useful rifle that makes his size and weight constraints, let alone in the 80's. I think sticking to his original specs today does not make much sense, with some of the very good caliber and optics options available out there... the concept could be improved upon. I still kick myself for not snatching up the 1903 Scout I saw in a gun shop for ~$350. Burris EER, ghost ring sights, polymer stock, and a pretty green park job on all the metal. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 12:20:38 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're welcome to that opinion. Cooper called the low power forward mounted scope a "scout scope". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For the 87th time, there is no one "scout optic." The fixation on the scope, and the marketing frenzy to take any heavy ass, too long rifle, scoot the scope forward of the breech, and call it a "scout," has jack and shit to do with Cooper, or the concept in question. Cooper called the low power forward mounted scope a "scout scope". "I acquired a 600 in .308 Win. and fitted it with a Leupold 2X extended-eye-relief telescope. This laid the groundwork for the scout concept now being studied by the conference. . . . . . . . A further feature which distinguishes the modern scout rifle from its predecessors is the telescope sight, but that in a certain particular mode. The modern scout uses a low-power telescope mounted just forward of the magazine well. . . . but there is little doubt in the minds of those who have used the scout telescope concept on snap shots that it is the only proper general-purpose sighting system for a rifle." According to Cooper himself, the forward-mounted scope is the centerpiece of the scout concept. In fact, the forward-mounted scope is the only thing that distinguishes the scout rifle from any other shorter barreled, light bolt action rifle. To dismiss the forward-mounted scope is dismiss the scout concept entirely. Of course, the forward-mounted scope is also the worst part of the concept. Cooper implicitly acknowledged this in his own article when he conceded no one at that time made a suitable scope or mounting system. In other words, the thing that makes a scout rifle a scout rifle is also the thing that makes a scout rifle worse than a regular short, light bolt action. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 12:21:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Go be poor somewhere else.
btw: I was wearing a Rolex when I took this picture. 
.308 Steyr Scout, Aimpoint T2 2moa. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 12:25:06 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is a link to the original scout rifle article. The article was published in September 1985. The October 2014 date is the reprint date. A scout rifle is nothing more than a relatively light, relatively short bolt action hunting rifle. Forward-mounting the scope makes it different. Cooper cites three advantages over a traditional scope mount: 1) easier stripper clip reloading; 2) less obstructed field of view; 3) easier carrying. All of these "advantages" are questionable. 1) Cooper chose a bolt action because a rifleman shouldn't have to shoot much. Well, then, why do we care about reloading with stripper clips? 2) A scope with a low power (2x or less) low end is perfectly fine for quick, close shots with both eyes open. Moving the scope forward doesn't do much, if anything, for you in this regard. 3) The rifle should be slung most of the time. If you're carrying it with two hands, scope position doesn't matter. People don't walk around carrying a rifle with one hand much at all. That's a silly reason to mount a scope in a sub-optimal position. Shorter, barreled, lighter weight bolt guns with a good scope with low bottom end magnification are awesome. There's just no good enough reason to mount the scope out over the barrel instead of over the receiver. The disadvantages far outweigh the advantages, if there really are even any advantages. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 12:25:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Basically, a scout rifle is a very lightweight rifle designed to be friendly and handy for prolonged field use which also had quick-acquisition sights suited for a decent variety of ranges and which is capable of reliably killing game under a certain weight as well as people, and which has some aids to loading, steadying, etc. (like ammo on or in the butt, a speed shooting sling, etc.) while using a cartridge that can be readily obtained worldwide. An AR is longer and heavier and, importantly, bulkier, which is true of other modern combat-oriented self-loaders. Of course, Cooper was not opposed to a self-loading scout rifle action, but it had to, on top of being sturdy and reliable, be sufficiently compact in all three dimensions and light enough for the rifle to make weight, which is a very tall order. I'm not sure that a suitable action has ever been invented. An AR-15 more specifically is lacking in sufficient power to be considered general-purpose. When one understands what its meant to do, and where the arrangement has conceptual flexibility, it is quite sound. A lightweight, general-purpose rifle that is easy to carry all day long is a very nice thing when well-executed. Rifles that are in the realm of his parameters, even if not strictly scout rifles, are a joy to carry. I really like them. If one is not in the habit of going afield and taking his rifle with him then I can see why he would not find much merit in the idea. While it can be shot at the range or used for home defence and the like if one desired, it's not really necessary for the former and less than ideal for the latter. A person who only uses their rifles for those things and has no intent or desire to move beyond that probably doesn't have much use for such a rifle, whether it meets the parameters of a scout rifle or is just on the broader general-purpose rifle category.  It seems many in this thred are getting hung up on "hurr, durr, it ain't a self-loader wit' a 600 round mag!!11!!" Yes, dear boy, I realize that; that was outside the design parameters. Cooper himself made it clear he had zero objection to self-loaders for a scout; it's just that, with the unavoidable extra buttons, knobs, and gas systems that mechanism requires, it made it much harder to make weight.
As stated in the quote above, "a scout rifle is a very lightweight rifle designed to be friendly and handy for prolonged field use". It's primary feature is it's adaptability; it strives to be that one rifle you can grab to take with you in the morning, and use for most any rifle purpose during the day. Is it the perfect combat rifle? No, but it'll do a decent job. Perfect target rifle? No, but again, it'll do a decent job. Perfect varmint rifle? No, but it'll smack a whistlepig on the back 40. Perfect big-game hunting rifle? No, but you know the rest. You could carry your AR, your target rifle, your big game rifle, AND your .22 with you everywhere you go. Or, you could carry a scout, which will do all of the above relatively well, and be light and handy. |
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 12:26:46 PM EDT
[#49]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 6/23/2017 12:33:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My 223 Scout. This is my favorite gun. Nothing else even comes close. 
Quoted: If I lived in CA, that would probably be my favorite too.
Quoted: Sorry to laugh, but it's true. ITT, we find the guys who have zero woodscraft, and no concept of "one clean shot". I'm sure you'd be lost completely if all you had was a Ruger #1. 
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
