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Link Posted: 1/3/2009 5:29:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Quoted:

This is the dumbest lawsuit ever...

Nah, AAC's lawsuit against Ian is much dumber.



Really.

Tell me.
Link Posted: 1/3/2009 5:42:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

This is the dumbest lawsuit ever...

Nah, AAC's lawsuit against Ian is much dumber.



Really.

Tell me.

Read all 38 pages of drama here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=709996
Link Posted: 1/3/2009 6:29:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Found on Google Patent: Dueck Patent



And  . . .  nevermind, that is the surefire patent.
Link Posted: 1/3/2009 9:10:27 PM EDT
[#4]


Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

I wonder why in the Ad. AAC didn't show their entire silencer like they did the SF silencer?



http://i41.tinypic.com/24n1xya.jpg


If I wasn't looking for a conspiracy theory I would suggest that it's because the ad as it exists is much more visually appealing and effective.
http://www.childrenfirst.nhs.uk/teens/images/features/michelle_before-after.jpg

 




Found on Google Patent: Dueck Patent





That's getting absurd.  Everybody in the industry already knows how everybody's can is made.  End users that would be influenced by that advertisement are not going to notice any such details.  



 
Link Posted: 1/4/2009 7:46:40 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I wonder why in the Ad. AAC didn't show their entire silencer like they did the SF silencer?

http://i41.tinypic.com/24n1xya.jpg








If I wasn't looking for a conspiracy theory I would suggest that it's because the ad as it exists is much more visually appealing and effective.



http://www.childrenfirst.nhs.uk/teens/images/features/michelle_before-after.jpg
 


Found on Google Patent: Dueck Patent


That's getting absurd.  Everybody in the industry already knows how everybody's can is made.  End users that would be influenced by that advertisement are not going to notice any such details.  
 


Absurd or not, it is strange that the rear of the AAC can is edited out and there is an entry in the PTO for the feature sourcing to Surefire. When did that feature first appear in an AAC product?



Link Posted: 1/4/2009 3:14:38 PM EDT
[#6]
I dont know when AAC started to use that  feature
But its not a secret that they do
It is shown on there homepage where you can see the half finished cans missing the outertube
So its not like they dont want people to known about it

There has even been a thread about it some time ago  

And of course they know there cans will be xrayèd ,so you cant hide something like that
But if its a Sure fire ,,what will they do about it

Say, see take a look at the can with a baffle stack that we cloned from ops without paying them ,and then cry about others doing the same
Link Posted: 1/5/2009 8:53:27 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:

Absurd or not, it is strange that the rear of the AAC can is edited out and there is an entry in the PTO for the feature sourcing to Surefire. When did that feature first appear in an AAC product?










What is a PTO referred to above?  I assume patnt trade office.
Link Posted: 1/20/2009 7:46:29 AM EDT
[#8]
AAC brought the damaged Surefire suppressor to SHOT Show?

See SMGLee's photos here.
Link Posted: 1/20/2009 7:51:18 AM EDT
[#9]
Classy.
Link Posted: 1/20/2009 11:02:04 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
AAC brought the damaged Surefire suppressor to SHOT Show?

See SMGLee's photos here.



What is the password?

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 7:42:14 PM EDT
[#11]
This is my favorite part, Page 5, section 19-

Defendant AAC denies that it has authority to
post content on the Silencer Talk web site or that it has any control over the
content appearing on the Silencer Talk web site.






















Link Posted: 1/26/2009 8:08:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Wow, thanks for posting that.
Link Posted: 1/27/2009 12:05:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Silencer wars!!!!!

Link Posted: 1/27/2009 3:42:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Are you saying you are actually happy to see me post for once Sean?  If so, you're welcome.  

Link Posted: 1/27/2009 7:04:21 PM EDT
[#15]
Your welcome.

Probably the 1st time that I said that without some level of sarcasm
Link Posted: 1/28/2009 1:26:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Does anyone have any experience with the Surefire L6 LumaMax?
Link Posted: 1/28/2009 2:35:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Does anyone have any experience with the Surefire L6 LumaMax?



WTF . . .  Over!
Link Posted: 1/28/2009 6:11:51 PM EDT
[#18]




Quoted:



Does anyone have any experience with the Surefire L6 LumaMax?



No but 6 weeks ago AAC would have told you it was junk.




 
 
Link Posted: 1/30/2009 1:31:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Would AAC say the same for the M952C? Or the E2E?
Link Posted: 3/29/2009 4:16:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Interesting

looks like some more action on this.

http://www.iptrademarkattorney.com/false_advertising_15_usc_1125a/
Link Posted: 3/30/2009 11:35:44 AM EDT
[#21]




March 24, 2009







SureFire And Advanced Armament Battle It Out In Preliminary Injunction Filings







Santa Ana, CA – Gun suppressor manufacturer SureFire, LLC filed a false advertising lawsuit, in the Central District of California (Santa Ana Division), against Advanced Armament Corp. (“AAC”), details blogged here. Returning fire, AAC then filed its own false advertising counterclaim (copy available here) alleging that SureFire’s representation that its suppressors could withstand the continuous firing of 1,5000 rounds without failure is false and no tests were conducted to support the statements.






Allegedly on December 23, 2008, AAC agreed not to run its advertisement in exchange for SureFire’s agreement not to seek preliminary injunctive relief. AAC also allegedly agreed to provide SureFire’s counsel with copies of modifications to the advertisement for approval prior to publication. But AAC began running a modified version of the allegedly offensive advertisement without seeking SureFire’s prior approval. As a result, SureFire filed an application for preliminary injunction to prevent publication of the modified version of the advertisement. (Preliminary injunction application is available here).





The modified advertisement contains the same pictures, but includes a statement in “fine print…that the SureFire suppressor was ‘FIRED 580 ROUNDS’ and that the AAC suppressor is ‘UNFINISHED/UNFIRED.’” SureFire contends that its suppressor must have been fired more than 580 times and appears to have been both abused and physically manipulated to create the false impression that it suffered a massive structural failure during normal use.” SureFire also asserts “the claim that SureFire’s suppressors use spot-welds is literally false,” as are claims regarding the strength of AAC’s welds compared to those used by SureFire. SureFire uses a series of redundant “tack” welds – which uses molten filler to strongly join seams between metal pieces – and not the weaker “spot” welds – where pressure and a strong electric current effectively melts two overlapping pieces of metal together at the “spot” of application. The AAC suppressor is produced by “fusion” welds, which do not use metal filler but draw metal from the two parts being joined together. According to SureFIre, “fusion” welds are generally weaker than “tack” welds, thereby rendering false AAC’s claims of greater durability.





AAC filed its opposition (copy available here) contending that its claims in the advertisement are not literally false and that the picture of the competitor’s product is not readily identifiable as a SureFire suppressor; therefore, no individualized harm can be shown by SureFire. AAC also contends that it previously used filler material in what it calls “plug welds,” but turned to fusion welds for strength because “a plug weld does not join all abutting metal at the seam, it is not continuous, and as a results, is not as strong.” AAC admits that its advertisement states that spot welded cores “can fatigue, crack, and break under the high-stress environment of semi and full-auto firing,” but denies that its advertisement makes any representations about failure rates for spot welds, even though AAC contends that fusion wells are stronger and more durable.





In its Reply Memorandum (copy available here), SureFire submits the declaration of a metallurgical engineer to rebut AAC’s contention that SureFire’s “tack” welds are the same thing as “spot” welds. The engineer’s declaration distinguishes between filler incorporated “tack” welds and spot welds – which exclude filler, and contends that ACC’s advertisement’s “Spot-Welded” designation of SureFire’s suppressor is literally false. SureFire further argues that AAC’s contention that SureFire’s suppressor is not as strong as the AAC’s welds is false because AAC has failed to do any comparative testing prior to making such claim, only relying on the “common sense” of AAC’s declarant. AAC’s implied assertion that its fusion welds cannot “fatigue, crack, and break under the high-stress environment of semi and full-auto firing” is also contested by the engineer because any weld can break. SureFire also contends that the comparative product is readily identifiable as a SureFire suppressor because its distinctive single weld ring on the outer tube is depicted in the picture. SureFire also submits evidence from Internet forums where users identify the product as a SureFire suppressor.





AAC filed an ex-parte application for leave to file a surreply, which the Court denied. Fireworks are sure to fly at the hearing on the motion for preliminary injunction, which is set to be heard on April 13, 2009. The case is SureFire, LLC v. Advanced Armament Corp., SACV 08-1405 DOC (C.D. Cal. 2008).














April 13 is gonna be an interesting day for someone.

Link Posted: 3/31/2009 5:03:20 PM EDT
[#22]
How about we make today interesting?  I haven't converted any of the 78 pages to pictures to upload but here's an excerpt:



Q:  Was it your idea? [the ad]



A:  No.



Q:  Was it Kevin Brittingham's idea?



A:  I'm not sure whose idea it was.



Q:  Who is Andy Sapp [ph]?



A:  He's AAC's graphic designer



Q:  Do you know if Mr. Sapp was involved in the creation of this ad?



A:  He was.



Q:  Who else was involved in the creation of this ad?



A:  Cara Brittingham



Q:  Anybody else?



A:  No.



Q:  Was Kevin Brittingham involved?



A:  Yes.



Q:  And yourself?



A:  Yes.



Q:  What was the initial concept of the ad?
Q:  Where do you work?



A:  I work at home.



Q:  Oh, and where is home?



A:  Massachusetts.



Q:  Okay.  Do you actually put things together there?



A:  No.



Q:  Okay.  How much time do you spend in Georgia versus Massachusetts?



A:  Probably, in Georgia, less than 10 days a year.



Q:  But you were there the day they shot these photos?



A:  Yes.



Q:  Did you travel there specifically because they were shooting the photos?



A:  No.



Q:  When you took that trip, were you aware they were going to be doing that project?



A:  No.
10 days a year huh?
Link Posted: 3/31/2009 6:12:51 PM EDT
[#23]

Link Posted: 3/31/2009 6:29:57 PM EDT
[#24]

Copy and paste the following into your browser if the links don't work.  You need a PDF reader. You can get Adobe's PDF reader 8.0 for free from adobe.com





http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=9a8b8522307f29e3af924764f9977b1d3374faf84491a3f05be6ba49b5870170



http://www.mediafire.com/file/tqdjngngimn/Silvers Depo 1.pdf





http://www.mediafire.com/file/wrd2q2mkavd/Silvers Depo 2.pdf
 
Link Posted: 4/1/2009 8:11:52 AM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 4/2/2009 5:15:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Remember, a SF AND an AAC were both tested at the same time that G5 was destroyed on the end of the 416.  You can guess why AAC did not post their silencer's performance OR that of the SF can.




Link Posted: 4/6/2009 11:00:43 AM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 4:05:37 PM EDT
[#28]
SMACK!  





April 13, 2009



SureFire LLC denied Preliminary Injunction against AAC.





SureFire LLC had filed a lawsuit claiming false advertising, by way of the Lanham Act.



A United States District Judge denied their motion for a Preliminary Injunction. Here are some quotes:



Whether The Statements Were Deceptive – Per the above reasoning, the Court finds that SureFire has not shown a likelihood that it will succeed on this element of the claim. Because SureFire has not successfully demonstrated a likelihood that AAC's advertisement was deceptive, it is unnecessary to consider this element of the Lanham Act.



The Court again reiterates that SureFire has not made a strong showing that the advertisement contains false statements, the advertising misleads consumers, or that it will suffer injury as a result of the advertisement.



The Court finds that SureFire has not shown a robust likelihood of success...



Here is the full document:



http://www.silencertalk.com/docs/SF.PDF




Its an interesting turn of events.  Not unexpected.
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 6:02:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 6:40:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Very true Mr. Larue.



SMACK . . . .  the sound of money leaving the litigant's hand and hitting the lawyer's desk to encourage more .








I pilfered this off TOS.  Interesting photos that was posted to show the different cans that have welded encaps like the surefire.
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 6:55:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 12:49:38 PM EDT
[#32]
It was obvious to me that it was a SF can right away.  Too bad for SureFire.
Link Posted: 4/17/2009 4:20:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Just ran across this . . . Interesting take on surefire's decision to file suit:





Surefire must be questioning its decision to file a lawsuit that – unlike the advertisement at issue – unequivocally identified its product as the one pictured in the advertisement and brought more attention to it than the advertisement itself.



Posted On: April 15, 2009 by Milord A. Keshishian


Surefire Loses Preliminary Injunction Motion Against Advanced Armament’s Silencer Advertising








Santa Ana, CA – The court denied Surefire’s preliminary injunction motion and silenced its attempt to shoot down Advanced Armament’s silencer advertising. (Motion details blogged here). The court quickly pointed out that the accused advertisement doesn’t make any reference to Surefire and the pictured suppressor is not readily identifiable as a Surefire product. Surefire must be questioning its decision to file a lawsuit that – unlike the advertisement at issue – unequivocally identified its product as the one pictured in the advertisement and brought more attention to it than the advertisement itself. Indeed, Surefire submitted discussions from weapon forums that referenced the lawsuit and the advertisement at issue.





The alleged four false statements at issue were: “(1) the SureFire suppressor shown uses spot welds; (2) SureFire’s spot welds are not as strong as the fusion welds used by AAC; (3) SureFire’s spot welds are likely to fail during normal semi-automatic and full-automatic firings; and (4) AAC’s suppressors are more durable than suppressors like the SureFire suppressor shown.” The court determined that the statements were not literally false on their face or by necessary implication because the suppressor cannot be positively identified as Surefire’s. As a result, the court also found that Surefire could not evidence actual injury because the non-comparative statements cause injury to all competitors and “none is more likely to suffer from the offending broadcasts than any other.” Thus, Surefire could not show a likelihood of success on the merits or significant hardship if the preliminary injunction was not granted. The case is SureFire, LLC v. Advanced Armament Corp., SACV 08-1405 DOC (C.D. Cal. 2008).






Link Posted: 4/18/2009 5:34:34 AM EDT
[#34]
Link Posted: 4/18/2009 9:02:10 AM EDT
[#35]
It is preliminary, but it says a lot about how the judge views their claims and the potential for success of those claims.
Link Posted: 4/20/2009 2:37:55 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Remember, a SF AND an AAC were both tested at the same time that G5 was destroyed on the end of the 416.  You can guess why AAC did not post their silencer's performance OR that of the SF can.



Are you saying that there was a test  where the G5 was destroyed on the end of the 416
,but the AAC can and Surefire can did go through the test ?

There has been some test of Surefire cans +AAC cans on ST ..the results are up for everyone to read
but no test like the G5 did fail in
Link Posted: 4/20/2009 2:36:24 PM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 4/20/2009 5:16:05 PM EDT
[#38]



Quoted:



Quoted:

Remember, a SF AND an AAC were both tested at the same time that G5 was destroyed on the end of the 416.  You can guess why AAC did not post their silencer's performance OR that of the SF can.







Are you saying that there was a test  where the G5 was destroyed on the end of the 416

,but the AAC can and Surefire can did go through the test ?



There has been some test of Surefire cans +AAC cans on ST ..the results are up for everyone to read

but no test like the G5 did fail in
Yes, I was told the AAC didn't pass and the SF did.  





 
Link Posted: 4/20/2009 6:18:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Remember, a SF AND an AAC were both tested at the same time that G5 was destroyed on the end of the 416.  You can guess why AAC did not post their silencer's performance OR that of the SF can.



Are you saying that there was a test  where the G5 was destroyed on the end of the 416
,but the AAC can and Surefire can did go through the test ?

There has been some test of Surefire cans +AAC cans on ST ..the results are up for everyone to read
but no test like the G5 did fail in
Yes, I was told the AAC didn't pass and the SF did.  

 


Is that just hearsay/rumor /somebody told me  ,or do you have a link to something??
Link Posted: 4/20/2009 6:26:25 PM EDT
[#40]
Link Posted: 4/20/2009 7:19:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
<snip>
Is that just hearsay/rumor /somebody told me, or do you have a link to something??  


I'm sure the incident in question would be easy to recreate...





do you mean the "hearsay/rumor /somebody told me"part  

Or are you going to do the test with a AAC can + a SF can side by side
Let some people who dislikes you be witness and video record it
The SF can HAD to survive + The AAC HAD to die  

Your own words "I'm sure the incident in question would be easy to recreate.."

Come on people love destructive testing ,,you have the $$ and finding some to be witness wont be a problem  ,,some would for sure want to

Edited for late night misspelling
Link Posted: 4/21/2009 6:23:58 AM EDT
[#42]







Quoted:
Quoted:






Quoted:



<snip>



Is that just hearsay/rumor /somebody told me, or do you have a link to something??  

I'm sure the incident in question would be easy to recreate...




do you mean the "hearsay/rumor /somebody told me"part  



Or are you going to do the test with a AAC can + a SF can side by side



Let some people who dislikes you be witness and video record it



The SF can HAD to survive + The AAC HAD to die  
Your own words "I'm sure the incident in question would be easy to recreate.."



Come on people love destructive testing ,,you have the $$ and finding some to be witness wont be a problem  ,,some would for sure want to
Edited for late night misspelling



He made noise about blowing up an AAC can about 2 years ago and never did, or at least didn't post about it.   I doubt he'll change his mind now, but I wish he would.  I like seeing stuff get broken.





ETA: I even offered to be a witness.
 
Link Posted: 4/21/2009 6:39:34 AM EDT
[#43]
Link Posted: 4/21/2009 6:47:35 AM EDT
[#44]
Mr LaRue, was this a first amendment case?



Was the first amendment mentioned in the arguments?



Was Ian's speech protected by the first amendment?
Link Posted: 4/21/2009 6:59:59 AM EDT
[#45]
Link Posted: 4/21/2009 7:06:19 AM EDT
[#46]



Quoted:



Quoted:

Mr LaRue, was this a first amendment case?



Was the first amendment mentioned in the arguments?



Was Ian's speech protected by the first amendment?




I was speaking my opinion.   You'll note that I wrote "I named it ..."



And of course everybody knows that opinions are like a**holes, and everybody's got one.













...and they all stink.



I would have been real interested if a 1a argument had been raised...



 
Link Posted: 4/21/2009 7:16:28 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Very true Mr. Larue.

SMACK . . . .  the sound of money leaving the litigant's hand and hitting the lawyer's desk to encourage more .

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8223/weldexamples.jpg

I pilfered this off TOS.  Interesting photos that was posted to show the different cans that have welded encaps like the surefire.


Also shows distinct differences.  I could see confusing #1 and #5, or #2 and #3, but #4 is distinctly different from the others.  I'd recognize it as a SureFire can if I were a suppressor shopper.  Not sure if the judge is going to buy that though.

Surefire should pull a Mag and trademark the basic shape (and distinctiveness) of their product.
Link Posted: 4/21/2009 7:20:35 AM EDT
[#48]



Quoted:



Surefire should pull a Mag and trademark the basic shape (and distinctiveness) of their product.




Too late...I've already trademarked black metal cylinders.



 
Link Posted: 4/21/2009 7:39:33 AM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 4/21/2009 7:41:07 AM EDT
[#50]





Quoted:





Quoted:
Quoted:




Quoted:


Mr LaRue, was this a first amendment case?





Was the first amendment mentioned in the arguments?





Was Ian's speech protected by the first amendment?






I was speaking my opinion.   You'll note that I wrote "I named it ..."





And of course everybody knows that opinions are like a**holes, and everybody's got one.














...and they all stink.





I would have been real interested if a 1a argument had been raised...  






The fact the it was a Freedom of Speech issue won't likely be seen on the board, for this very reason.  





"Why did you beat your dog ?"  





"Well, it wasn't his barking that bothered me ... he was waking the neighbors."




It's not a 1a issue.  It's a bullshit lawsuit, but that doesn't make it a violation of the BoR.  I say this as a huge civil liberties supporter.





This was not protected for the same reason that Roe vs Wade is a bullshit decision.
 
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