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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:42:28 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Lithium batteries can react badly, looks like this was one of those times. 
ETA: Page 2 is all mine!!! |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:44:00 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I bet you a pay check it was lithium batteries that got compromised and water got in them somehow........ever seen what happens when you touch raw lithium to water? And being in a tight cylinder like that it acted like a gun barrel. Guarantee that is what happened.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAM
EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAM I appreciate all the ideas, But i cant see water as one of the solutions. I have not been in water lately and not since this set of batteries. It has been rained on in the last 15 yrs, but not in a couple months anyways. I am pretty sure it is also water proof. Come to think of it, I dont even think I have built up a good sweat recently. 
This was arcing and sparking. Reminded me of thermite, but quick as shit! It was sparking then blew, I got hit with all that crap and was bent over looking at my legs for damage control when the sneaky bastard almost made me shit my pants. 
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:44:02 AM EDT
[#3]
WTF!
Good documentation on what happened, |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:45:12 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
He is pretty lucky that this happened in an aluminum body flashlight. Would a G2 have jacked up his hand? A G2 Nitrolon would probably have melted vented/failed before it shot any parts around at high velocity, making it potentialy much safer. The burns would have sucked, but the flashlight body had more than enough foot pounds to have been lethal if it had hit the OP in the right spot. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:45:28 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
He is pretty lucky that this happened in an aluminum body flashlight. Would a G2 have jacked up his hand? The G2 lights have an aluminum sleeve in them that is actually very sturdy. I'm guessing that a similar event with a G2 would have resulted in very similar circumstances...possibly even less drama as the polymer threads may have given way sooner than the aluminum ones did, leading to less built up pressure and a less spectacular event. Again, that's a guess, as I don't know what, if any, difference there is in the failure point for the threads that hold the tailcap on the aluminum lights versus the polymer lights. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:49:52 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: IBKJEHAWIH In Before Keith J explains how and why it happened. It blowed the fuck up. That is what it did.  Stored energy is stored energy. The CR123 experienced what is called an internal short. Then the cell "ran away" once the heat built up, it started self discharging. This caused rapid heating. The electrolyte in these cells is flammable . It is mixed with a powerful oxidizer. Not a good thing to get hot as it then wants to catch fire. Or explode as was the case here. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:52:50 AM EDT
[#7]
It's definitely the lithium batteries and/or halogen bulb that went. There's nothing that can cause that type of explosion from regular electronics.
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:54:26 AM EDT
[#8]
Daym, and I have a Surefire x300 on my Glock! Never knew I had so much firepower in the palm of my hand!
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:54:38 AM EDT
[#9]
So when is the lawsuit going to be filed ?
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:54:55 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Lithium batteries can react badly, looks like this was one of those times. contact surefire, they will at least replace the light. glad no one got hurt |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:55:01 AM EDT
[#11]
Damn.
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:55:18 AM EDT
[#12]
Ah, vent and flame. RC guys have been aware of this stuff for quite some time. I saw a 4s2p pack go up after a crash-looked like a welding arc and completely destroyed the plane...
If it's any comfort, you have that same battery chemistry in your cell phone, laptop, bluetooth earpiece and tons of other gadgets. Keep them out of the heat-140 or so and some cells go bang... |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:56:13 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Quoted: I bet you a pay check it was lithium batteries that got compromised and water got in them somehow........ever seen what happens when you touch raw lithium to water? And being in a tight cylinder like that it acted like a gun barrel. Guarantee that is what happened. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAMEDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAM I appreciate all the ideas, But i cant see water as one of the solutions. I have not been in water lately and not since this set of batteries. It has been rained on in the last 15 yrs, but not in a couple months anyways. I am pretty sure it is also water proof. Come to think of it, I dont even think I have built up a good sweat recently. This was arcing and sparking. Reminded me of thermite, but quick as shit! It was sparking then blew, I got hit with all that crap and was bent over looking at my legs for damage control when the sneaky bastard almost made me shit my pants. Yeah, I'm thinking the theory of mixing old/new batteries or ones with dissimilar charges perhaps is the culprit. Either way, those lithium batteries store up a shit load of energy and lookout if it ever discharges rapidly. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:57:11 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: I bet you a pay check it was lithium batteries that got compromised and water got in them somehow........ever seen what happens when you touch raw lithium to water? And being in a tight cylinder like that it acted like a gun barrel. Guarantee that is what happened. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAMEDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxhW7TtXIAM So, lithium battery + cut + water = Glock like behavior  Old Painless, you want a project that goes BOOM (just Kidding) |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:59:55 AM EDT
[#15]
tag for fear
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Posted: 11/5/2009 6:59:58 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Great documentation of the incident  Oh, lord. He has set a new standard of evidence. Everyone is now screwed from this point on. HAH Video frames FTW! |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:00:29 AM EDT
[#17]
I think I need to reconsider having a surefire in my pocket however. Man if that was in a front pocket I hate to think what might have happened and in the winter I carry a Surefire in my pocket quite a bit with 123s.
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:00:35 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Ah, vent and flame. RC guys have been aware of this stuff for quite some time. I saw a 4s2p pack go up after a crash-looked like a welding arc and completely destroyed the plane... If it's any comfort, you have that same battery chemistry in your cell phone, laptop, bluetooth earpiece and tons of other gadgets. Keep them out of the heat-140 or so and some cells go bang... Lithium chemistries have issues with run-away because of the very thin separators and flammable electrolytes. But CR123 and lithium ion/polymer have different chemistries, the only common element is lithium. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:01:38 AM EDT
[#19]
Tag
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:03:21 AM EDT
[#20]
I didn't even know that was possible. I guess now, I know. It makes sense though. Incredible documentation!
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:03:49 AM EDT
[#21]
IB87GN
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:05:04 AM EDT
[#22]
Damn. Maybe I better re-think keeping one of those on my headboard about 8 inches from the top of my head. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:05:40 AM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:05:49 AM EDT
[#24]
holy shit, that's the worst (best) surefire KB yet
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:05:50 AM EDT
[#25]
So basically you had an unregistered NFA destructive device???
 
Hide your dog, the ATF will be there shortly. Sarcasm for all the others who don't know. 
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:08:28 AM EDT
[#26]
Glad the monster under the back seat of my Prius is NMH...
I'm not familiar with the voltage of CR123s, but do lithium 1.5 volt AA batteries have this same potential, or is there too little there to be much of a problem? |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:09:39 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Are your batteries as ancient as that box appears to be, or do you just reuse it? I don't know if old batteries would matter or not, but that was my first thought. This, they haven't used that box for a number of years. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:10:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Now imagine that happening in your NVGs while you're wearing them.
ETA: I'm sure surefire will make it right. Their customer services with me has always been top-drawer. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:10:56 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Quoted: IBKJEHAWIH In Before Keith J explains how and why it happened. It blowed the fuck up. That is what it did. Stored energy is stored energy. The CR123 experienced what is called an internal short. Then the cell "ran away" once the heat built up, it started self discharging. This caused rapid heating. The electrolyte in these cells is flammable . It is mixed with a powerful oxidizer. Not a good thing to get hot as it then wants to catch fire. Or explode as was the case here. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:12:44 AM EDT
[#30]
Tag for response from Surefire.
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:12:53 AM EDT
[#31]
Can't believe I made it to page two. IBTFFB
In Before The Fenix Fanboys.
Seriously, as a longtime Surefire user, I can't wait to hear the SF response. Their service is excellent and I'm sure they'll want you to box up everything and send it to them to be checked out. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:12:54 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are your batteries as ancient as that box appears to be, or do you just reuse it? I don't know if old batteries would matter or not, but that was my first thought. This, they haven't used that box for a number of years. 5 Yrs maybe? I bought four or five boxes. They are supposed to have good shelf life. ETA: Email was sent to Surefire. I will update as I get a reply. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:13:36 AM EDT
[#33]
awesome.
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:14:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Lithium batteries can react badly, looks like this was one of those times. Lithium is what can make a meth lab explode. I have heard of this with batteries which were not designed for flashlights being used, but those are surefire batteries...... I would guess that the batteries were just a little too old for the task at hand. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:14:37 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Glad the monster under the back seat of my Prius is NMH... I'm not familiar with the voltage of CR123s, but do lithium 1.5 volt AA batteries have this same potential, or is there too little there to be much of a problem? Yes. This is an old topic and has happened many times over at candlepowerforums with li-ion batteries. His light is a multi battery light. Looks like a 2 123A cell. If the cells were not similar in power such as replacing a single one he could have a much higher likelihood of this happening as well. Make sure when you put cells into your light that they are not damaged, cut, dented, and they are both the same height (think bullet setback). If you don't want to deal with this and as an added precaution check the voltage of both cells it's recommended to use a single cell in an EDC light sometimes as some people do fear this happening. I check my batteries for physical defects and always replace both at the same time. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:16:05 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are your batteries as ancient as that box appears to be, or do you just reuse it? I don't know if old batteries would matter or not, but that was my first thought. This, they haven't used that box for a number of years. 5 Yrs maybe? I bought four or five boxes. They are supposed to have good shelf life. ETA: Email was sent to Surefire. I will update as I get a reply. Does your box state 10 year shelf life? I think some surefire boxes did. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:16:31 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Lithium batteries can react badly, looks like this was one of those times. Lithium is what can make a meth lab explode. I have heard of this with batteries which were not designed for flashlights being used, but those are surefire batteries...... I would guess that the batteries were just a little too old for the task at hand. Any spark combined with a diethy-ether-enriched atmosphere is a recipe for a fireball. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:17:33 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Great documentation of the incident +1 in your video still shots .. i could not help it.. I kept trying to see ghosts. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:17:42 AM EDT
[#39]
Yea, CR123's do that.
Alkalines? Not so much. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:18:10 AM EDT
[#40]
wow i have never seen nor heard of this from surefire, last year we had a officer safety warning about some generic 123's that some agency in pa were using they had some horrible accidents lights exploding while riding in the pouch couple of officers got burned pretty bad on the back and sides. m3 taclights exploding while on their duty weapons. we were told to use nothing but surefire or streamlight 123's after that.
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:19:32 AM EDT
[#41]
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and predict that this will be a looooong and interesting thread.
Now I'm worried that my SureFire by the bed is gonna spontaneously combust and burn the fucking HOUSE DOWN. 
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:21:26 AM EDT
[#42]
How hard would it be to photoshop the word Glock on that flashlight????
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:23:25 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Lithium batteries can react badly, looks like this was one of those times. Lithium is what can make a meth lab explode. I have heard of this with batteries which were not designed for flashlights being used, but those are surefire batteries...... I would guess that the batteries were just a little too old for the task at hand. Any spark combined with a diethy-ether-enriched atmosphere is a recipe for a fireball. Yes, and with the new shake and bake methods, the only spark introduced is created by the lithium. No outside heat sources used. |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:24:36 AM EDT
[#44]
tag
and wear a cup next time btw, have you contacted SF, i would want a new flashlight and additional info! |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:25:19 AM EDT
[#45]
Holy crap!
I'm glad nobody was seriously hurt! |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:25:52 AM EDT
[#46]
wow, i have one of those on my SBR...sweet, fuck 5.56 I am launching rockets now.
edit: So do I want it pointing forward like normal or turned around pointing at me? Which way does it fire, light side or cap side? |
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:29:54 AM EDT
[#47]
Any possibility those are counterfeit batteries? seems like I read something a couple yrs ago about counterfeit surefire batteries showing up at gunshows.
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:30:28 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Lithium batteries can react badly, looks like this was one of those times. Lithium is what can make a meth lab explode. I have heard of this with batteries which were not designed for flashlights being used, but those are surefire batteries...... I would guess that the batteries were just a little too old for the task at hand. They've got a shelf life of ten years, they weren't "too old", at least not according to manufacturer specs. Sorry if it's not a comfortable answer to those who burn through 123's like they were cord wood, but sometimes they just do that. Newer cells have vents and supposedly improved QC to try to mitigate these issues, but it's only "mitigate", not "solve". Check out the candlepower forums. They've had a few documented instances of similar failures, and they tend to do the same thing we do here after we see one.. We throw some blame around, ignore the root cause of the issue, and forget all about it in short order. IIRC there was a Pelican light that grenaded in some guy's kitchen cabinet a few years back on CPF. Surefire batteries, that I remember specifically. I've seen reports of the same from other brands as well, but there just aren't that many CR123 battery factories out there, and a lot of 'em are going to be identical production in different wrappers. Don't worry about it though.. Surefire will likely replace the light and cells and that'll satisfy the SF fanboys, then someone will point out the energy density of the 123 cell and it's superiority in lots of ways to standard alkalines, and somehow that'll all overcome the occasional small threat of explosion without warning and we'll all go happily on with our days.
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:30:42 AM EDT
[#49]
I've seen pictures from another light that KB'd awhile back. Check over on candlepowerforums maybe. It's geek central for flashlight stuff.
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Posted: 11/5/2009 7:32:34 AM EDT
[#50]
Damn. Contact Surefire and see what they say.
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