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Posted: 1/28/2015 9:44:16 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In fact, throughout history Christianity was one of the great promoters of science, on the belief that learning about God through His creation was a worthy endeavor. I would truly love to see you trying to explain that to Galileo Galilei. |
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Posted: 1/28/2015 9:48:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would truly love to see you trying to explain that to Galileo Galilei. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In fact, throughout history Christianity was one of the great promoters of science, on the belief that learning about God through His creation was a worthy endeavor. I would truly love to see you trying to explain that to Galileo Galilei. Yeah, Christianity was never a unified body acting in any predictable way. For every time they championed science (and there are instances where that's very true), you can find equal parts suppression and derision that stifled human development. When doctrine seemed to be threatened, science was not given reign to thrive or ask the big questions - see Origin of Species/monkey trials, etc.
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Posted: 1/28/2015 9:57:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would truly love to see you trying to explain that to Galileo Galilei. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In fact, throughout history Christianity was one of the great promoters of science, on the belief that learning about God through His creation was a worthy endeavor. I would truly love to see you trying to explain that to Galileo Galilei. |
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Posted: 1/28/2015 9:59:00 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would truly love to see you trying to explain that to Galileo Galilei. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In fact, throughout history Christianity was one of the great promoters of science, on the belief that learning about God through His creation was a worthy endeavor. I would truly love to see you trying to explain that to Galileo Galilei. Galileo believed that the earth revolved around the sun, but he still respected scientists like the Pope and his inquisitors when they challenged him with their own theory that hot irons would burn out his eyes. |
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Posted: 1/28/2015 10:03:29 PM EDT
[#5]
Believe in a god all you want but if someone believes the bible got it right then they are not reading the bible. It is not the answer so keep looking for a better book to worship. I tried and there is not one book that has all the answers and there never will be.
By using the scientific process we are slowly figuring out how it all fits together. I am perfectly fine with a finite life and not having the answers. I am not fine with not looking for the answers through logical processes that science has taught us. As of now based on the direct observation using various experiments such as WMAP and COBE we have see evidence that supports the big bang theory and the age of the universe. Edwin Hubble discovered red shift and the expanding universe that expands faster the father out we look. These experiments support the Big Bang. If we learn more in the future that changes what we know, GREAT!!!! I effing LOVE science and astronomy, it speaks the truth to all of us by being self correctly and open to critical review. Religion does not do this and never has. |
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Posted: 1/28/2015 10:36:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Believe in a god all you want but if someone believes the bible got it right then they are not reading the bible. It is not the answer so keep looking for a better book to worship. I tried and there is not one book that has all the answers and there never will be. By using the scientific process we are slowly figuring out how it all fits together. I am perfectly fine with a finite life and not having the answers. I am not fine with not looking for the answers through logical processes that science has taught us. As of now based on the direct observation using various experiments such as WMAP and COBE we have see evidence that supports the big bang theory and the age of the universe. Edwin Hubble discovered red shift and the expanding universe that expands faster the father out we look. These experiments support the Big Bang. If we learn more in the future that changes what we know, GREAT!!!! I effing LOVE science and astronomy, it speaks the truth to all of us by being self correctly and open to critical review. Religion does not do this and never has. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTSRI9Nq-WjM-ZcF9J07EEOfV8vdDrs51ClveTVNjMds6RDirmQLA 
Great post. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:14:58 AM EDT
[#7]
Seems like most everyone thinks they need to know the answer. What's wrong with "I don't know." |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:17:18 AM EDT
[#8]
God banged Andromeda. EPT was positive. 6 days later here we are.
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:22:02 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Believe in a god all you want but if someone believes the bible got it right then they are not reading the bible. It is not the answer so keep looking for a better book to worship. I tried and there is not one book that has all the answers and there never will be. By using the scientific process we are slowly figuring out how it all fits together. I am perfectly fine with a finite life and not having the answers. I am not fine with not looking for the answers through logical processes that science has taught us. As of now based on the direct observation using various experiments such as WMAP and COBE we have see evidence that supports the big bang theory and the age of the universe. Edwin Hubble discovered red shift and the expanding universe that expands faster the father out we look. These experiments support the Big Bang. If we learn more in the future that changes what we know, GREAT!!!! I effing LOVE science and astronomy, it speaks the truth to all of us by being self correctly and open to critical review. Religion does not do this and never has. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTSRI9Nq-WjM-ZcF9J07EEOfV8vdDrs51ClveTVNjMds6RDirmQLA I subscribe to the big bang, it is to me the most plausible explanation. I know I don't understand a lot of the physics. When we look out to the furthest edge of the observable universe we are seeing back in time 13 billion years, within a few hundred thousand years of the big bang itself. If the expansion were slowing, over time, wouldn't we expect the further into the past we looked the galaxies would be moving away faster? |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 2:35:54 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Believe in a god all you want but if someone believes the bible got it right then they are not reading the bible. It is not the answer so keep looking for a better book to worship. I tried and there is not one book that has all the answers and there never will be. By using the scientific process we are slowly figuring out how it all fits together. I am perfectly fine with a finite life and not having the answers. I am not fine with not looking for the answers through logical processes that science has taught us. As of now based on the direct observation using various experiments such as WMAP and COBE we have see evidence that supports the big bang theory and the age of the universe. Edwin Hubble discovered red shift and the expanding universe that expands faster the father out we look. These experiments support the Big Bang. If we learn more in the future that changes what we know, GREAT!!!! I effing LOVE science and astronomy, it speaks the truth to all of us by being self correctly and open to critical review. Religion does not do this and never has. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTSRI9Nq-WjM-ZcF9J07EEOfV8vdDrs51ClveTVNjMds6RDirmQLA http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/high_five_stephen_colbert.gif Great post.  |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 2:48:36 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Coram Deo God is not bound by the limitations of time and space, for He is not subject to finitude as we are. He can see the end and the beginning, and He is the infinite ground of all reality. This does not mean we cannot distinguish the Lord from creation. He exists in all places, but He cannot be absorbed fully into His creation. And though He transcends time, He can still enter into it in order to accomplish redemption. Meditate on our Father’s infinite character today. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For those who don't believe in God, how can something be made out of nothing? It's scientifically impossible. Coram Deo God is not bound by the limitations of time and space, for He is not subject to finitude as we are. He can see the end and the beginning, and He is the infinite ground of all reality. This does not mean we cannot distinguish the Lord from creation. He exists in all places, but He cannot be absorbed fully into His creation. And though He transcends time, He can still enter into it in order to accomplish redemption. Meditate on our Father’s infinite character today. You lack faith, OP. I'll pray to the Big Bang for you. Big Bang loves you, and wants you to be happy. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 3:01:11 AM EDT
[#12]
God set the fuse and lit the match.
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Posted: 1/29/2015 3:52:25 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I subscribe to the big bang, it is to me the most plausible explanation. I know I don't understand a lot of the physics. When we look out to the furthest edge of the observable universe we are seeing back in time 13 billion years, within a few hundred thousand years of the big bang itself. If the expansion were slowing, over time, wouldn't we expect the further into the past we looked the galaxies would be moving away faster? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Believe in a god all you want but if someone believes the bible got it right then they are not reading the bible. It is not the answer so keep looking for a better book to worship. I tried and there is not one book that has all the answers and there never will be. By using the scientific process we are slowly figuring out how it all fits together. I am perfectly fine with a finite life and not having the answers. I am not fine with not looking for the answers through logical processes that science has taught us. As of now based on the direct observation using various experiments such as WMAP and COBE we have see evidence that supports the big bang theory and the age of the universe. Edwin Hubble discovered red shift and the expanding universe that expands faster the father out we look. These experiments support the Big Bang. If we learn more in the future that changes what we know, GREAT!!!! I effing LOVE science and astronomy, it speaks the truth to all of us by being self correctly and open to critical review. Religion does not do this and never has. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTSRI9Nq-WjM-ZcF9J07EEOfV8vdDrs51ClveTVNjMds6RDirmQLA I subscribe to the big bang, it is to me the most plausible explanation. I know I don't understand a lot of the physics. When we look out to the furthest edge of the observable universe we are seeing back in time 13 billion years, within a few hundred thousand years of the big bang itself. If the expansion were slowing, over time, wouldn't we expect the further into the past we looked the galaxies would be moving away faster? Yep, Hubble's discovery was contrary to the expected slowing of the expansion of the universe due to gravity. We don't know exactly why the universe is expanding at an accelerated pace. We have discovered dark matter and dark energy and currently we use their existence at the causal factor. We can infer their existence from the gravitational impacts they cause when viewing distant galaxies. Dark matter causes twists and bubbles in space which warps the light and energy those distant galaxies emit. We have observed these effects with the HST. There are experiments going on right now that are trying to better understand the effects of dark energy, we just don't know exactly what is going on with it but we are trying to learn. Hubble found through direct spectral observation that the farther galaxies he observed where shifted toward the color red, known as red shift. Because of the finite speed of light the faster things go away from you the more the light they emit turns toward the red color. The wave length changes and stretches out. Eventually you get past visible light and end up in wave lengths that the satalites and experiments I mentioned detect. If you put your car radio on AM and between stations you hear static, about 1 % of that noise is the Big Bang. The farther you get from civilization then the 1% goes up. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 8:52:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
God set the fuse and lit the match. How do you know which god? And if a god or gods did it, where did they come from? |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 9:09:02 AM EDT
[#15]
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Has any other religion that was so confident talk about the coming of a Savior, have said Savior be born of a virgin, live without sin and then die... But then be resurrected and witnessed by over 500 people after resurrection and in fulllfillment of the scriptures? Not even close. No other religion can claim or even come close to what Jesus did when He rose from the dead. Not one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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God IS the universe Countless thousands of confident religions have made that claim about countless thousands of other gods, too. Has any other religion that was so confident talk about the coming of a Savior, have said Savior be born of a virgin, live without sin and then die... But then be resurrected and witnessed by over 500 people after resurrection and in fulllfillment of the scriptures? Not even close. No other religion can claim or even come close to what Jesus did when He rose from the dead. Not one. Yes, the story of Christ was plagiarized. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 9:12:13 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The two are not mutually exclusive. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 9:15:22 AM EDT
[#17]
It boggles my mind to think how matter got into "space". It sounds like it's always existed. But the infinity thought of going back in time, maybe there was empty space at some point and stuff popped up like the gases and such. Like ingredients to the cosmic soup.
But where that soup originated from is the amazing thing to think about. That soup on your burner didn't put itself together. You put it there. So I'm thinking someone or something, probably "God", is pulling the infinite strings behind the scenes. And I'm no religious person by any means.
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Posted: 1/29/2015 9:19:16 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you know which god? And if a god or gods did it, where did they come from? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: God set the fuse and lit the match. How do you know which god? And if a god or gods did it, where did they come from? Always existed. I know. Hard to wrap around. I just can't think of a beginning. When you were born, people existed before you. So "God", if you will, had to always exist....there could not be a before.
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Posted: 1/29/2015 9:53:32 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Always existed. I know. Hard to wrap around. I just can't think of a beginning. When you were born, people existed before you. So "God", if you will, had to always exist....there could not be a before. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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God set the fuse and lit the match. How do you know which god? And if a god or gods did it, where did they come from? Always existed. I know. Hard to wrap around. I just can't think of a beginning. When you were born, people existed before you. So "God", if you will, had to always exist....there could not be a before. So if gods always existed, then by the same logic the singularity from which the Big Bang originated could have always existed. We have actual, measurable, observable evidence for the Big Bang. We have nothing for Ra, or Odin, or Yahweh. So why bring mysticism into it until and unless we discover such evidence? |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 9:55:15 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The two are not mutually exclusive. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 10:47:23 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We have actual, measurable, observable evidence for the Big Bang. We have nothing for Ra, or Odin, or Yahweh. So why bring mysticism into it until and unless we discover such evidence? |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:03:59 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you gather scientific evidence of God when the first assumption science makes is that natural forces, rather than God, are the cause of observable phenomena? One of the most basic principles of deductive logic is that you can't prove your assumptions. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We have actual, measurable, observable evidence for the Big Bang. We have nothing for Ra, or Odin, or Yahweh. So why bring mysticism into it until and unless we discover such evidence? In the end, if there is any evidence of God, it will trump the evidence of natural forces. Science can be subject to the predisposition of a person or persons, but inevitably, observation, evidence and facts win the day. It really doesn't matter if "science" (meaning people) assumes a natural world. If God chooses to make a case for himself, by oh I dunno, appearing in the mid-day sky as a disembodied head that speaks the exact same message to all creation, then blocks out the sun for 7 days, stops the light of the stars and forces even the most jaded scientist to live in darkness for a week to ponder what they just witnessed, it will call for some serious re-examination of the natural world. But, as of now, god is silent except in the minds of people who already believe, and things throughout the course of human history once thought to be the hand or domain of god have proven to be natural, or repeatable, or explainable by simple forces....the law of expanding margins, if you will. I've been saying since I was a child, that if God wants us all to believe it's as simple as showing up to the ball field with his mitt on. And, I care not a whit what a book has to say about reasons he does not. He and his sons (as most gods in most myths have also done) showed up to convince some people, long ago, who apparently needed convincing. It's in his bag of tricks, and if it took miracles and showing up to get the ancients on board, it will take much the same for me. I'm all ears....as are most good scientists. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:12:16 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is not the answer so keep looking for a better book to worship. That's a good way to put it. Far too many people worship a book. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:16:58 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In the end, if there is any evidence of God, it will trump the evidence of natural forces. Science can be subject to the predisposition of a person or persons, but inevitably, observation, evidence and facts win the day. It really doesn't matter if "science" (meaning people) assumes a natural world. If God chooses to make a case for himself, by oh I dunno, appearing in the mid-day sky as a disembodied head that speaks the exact same message to all creation, then blocks out the sun for 7 days, stops the light of the stars and forces even the most jaded scientist to live in darkness for a week to ponder what they just witnessed, it will call for some serious re-examination of the natural world. But, as of now, god is silent except in the minds of people who already believe, and things throughout the course of human history once thought to be the hand or domain of god have proven to be natural, or repeatable, or explainable by simple forces....the law of expanding margins, if you will. I've been saying since I was a child, that if God wants us all to believe it's as simple as showing up to the ball field with his mitt on. And, I care not a whit what a book has to say about reasons he does not. He and his sons (as most gods in most myths have also done) showed up to convince some people, long ago, who apparently needed convincing. It's in his bag of tricks, and if it took miracles and showing up to get the ancients on board, it will take much the same for me. I'm all ears....as are most good scientists. You're assuming that God is the Christian God and that if you don't believe, then bad things will happen to you. What if God doesn't care? One of the themes running through a lot of Near-Death Experiences is a more universal concept of God who doesn't particularly care about what we believe on earth, because once we return to him his existence will be quite obvious. Our ignorance on this world is a condition of the test to allow us to experience the world from a multiple of perspectives over many lives. Basically the last chapter of Plato's Republic.
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:23:22 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In the end, if there is any evidence of God, it will trump the evidence of natural forces. Science can be subject to the predisposition of a person or persons, but inevitably, observation, evidence and facts win the day. It really doesn't matter if "science" (meaning people) assumes a natural world. If God chooses to make a case for himself, by oh I dunno, appearing in the mid-day sky as a disembodied head that speaks the exact same message to all creation, then blocks out the sun for 7 days, stops the light of the stars and forces even the most jaded scientist to live in darkness for a week to ponder what they just witnessed, it will call for some serious re-examination of the natural world. But, as of now, god is silent except in the minds of people who already believe, and things throughout the course of human history once thought to be the hand or domain of god have proven to be natural, or repeatable, or explainable by simple forces....the law of expanding margins, if you will. I've been saying since I was a child, that if God wants us all to believe it's as simple as showing up to the ball field with his mitt on. And, I care not a whit what a book has to say about reasons he does not. He and his sons (as most gods in most myths have also done) showed up to convince some people, long ago, who apparently needed convincing. It's in his bag of tricks, and if it took miracles and showing up to get the ancients on board, it will take much the same for me. I'm all ears....as are most good scientists. You're assuming that God is the Christian God and that if you don't believe, then bad things will happen to you. What if God doesn't care? One of the themes running through a lot of Near-Death Experiences is a more universal concept of God who doesn't particularly care about what we believe on earth, because once we return to him his existence will be quite obvious. Our ignorance on this world is a condition of the test to allow us to experience the world from a multiple of perspectives over many lives. Basically the last chapter of Plato's Republic. Well it's a predominantly "Active" god world, filled with people who insist he does care and takes an active part in cancer, Tim Tebow's football career, and listening to us every Sunday. It's hard not to make that the basis of the argument, especially in GD. But, it's also possible he's a totally "hands off" god, and in that case, it doesn't really matter. If there's evidence of him, I imagine eventually someone or some thing will find it. Science has had flawed assumptions countless times about the workings of the universe - for centuries we thought Newtonian physics governed it all, but evidence said otherwise...even when predominant scientific communities doubted. If it's the hand of god, I'm perfectly willing to accept that, given some evidence. I can't be the only person open to it, even among the scientific community. Einstein was looking in that direction, in a way, was he not? |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:34:11 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you gather scientific evidence of God when the first assumption science makes is that natural forces, rather than God, are the cause of observable phenomena? One of the most basic principles of deductive logic is that you can't prove your assumptions. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
We have actual, measurable, observable evidence for the Big Bang. We have nothing for Ra, or Odin, or Yahweh. So why bring mysticism into it until and unless we discover such evidence? Science assumes nothing, and proves nothing. It simply gathers evidence in support of theories. The theories always remain malleable. There is, for example, mountains of evidence to support the theory of gravity. But if we wake up tomorrow and we are all floating in the air, then science will modify the theory based on the new evidence. If there are gods, science only needs evidence of them. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:38:16 AM EDT
[#27]
People think up the damnedest things, while playing in their heads.
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:46:12 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But, as of now, god is silent except in the minds of people who already believe, and things throughout the course of human history once thought to be the hand or domain of god have proven to be natural, or repeatable, or explainable by simple forces....the law of expanding margins, if you will. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: In the end, if there is any evidence of God, it will trump the evidence of natural forces. Science can be subject to the predisposition of a person or persons, but inevitably, observation, evidence and facts win the day. It really doesn't matter if "science" (meaning people) assumes a natural world. If God chooses to make a case for himself, by oh I dunno, appearing in the mid-day sky as a disembodied head that speaks the exact same message to all creation, then blocks out the sun for 7 days, stops the light of the stars and forces even the most jaded scientist to live in darkness for a week to ponder what they just witnessed, it will call for some serious re-examination of the natural world. But, as of now, god is silent except in the minds of people who already believe, and things throughout the course of human history once thought to be the hand or domain of god have proven to be natural, or repeatable, or explainable by simple forces....the law of expanding margins, if you will. I've been saying since I was a child, that if God wants us all to believe it's as simple as showing up to the ball field with his mitt on. And, I care not a whit what a book has to say about reasons he does not. He and his sons (as most gods in most myths have also done) showed up to convince some people, long ago, who apparently needed convincing. It's in his bag of tricks, and if it took miracles and showing up to get the ancients on board, it will take much the same for me. I'm all ears....as are most good scientists. You're assuming that God is the Christian God and that if you don't believe, then bad things will happen to you. What if God doesn't care? One of the themes running through a lot of Near-Death Experiences is a more universal concept of God who doesn't particularly care about what we believe on earth, because once we return to him his existence will be quite obvious. Our ignorance on this world is a condition of the test to allow us to experience the world from a multiple of perspectives over many lives. Basically the last chapter of Plato's Republic. Well it's a predominantly "Active" god world, filled with people who insist he does care and takes an active part in cancer, Tim Tebow's football career, and listening to us every Sunday. It's hard not to make that the basis of the argument, especially in GD. But, it's also possible he's a totally "hands off" god, and in that case, it doesn't really matter. If there's evidence of him, I imagine eventually someone or some thing will find it. Science has had flawed assumptions countless times about the workings of the universe - for centuries we thought Newtonian physics governed it all, but evidence said otherwise...even when predominant scientific communities doubted. If it's the hand of god, I'm perfectly willing to accept that, given some evidence. I can't be the only person open to it, even among the scientific community. Einstein was looking in that direction, in a way, was he not? The problem with God and science is that the fundamental premise is that God can't be measured. By definition, an infinite value can't be measured. It makes the whole point moot. Even demonstrable miracles are just as easily explained by saying any other deity could accomplish it. Essentially, Christianity jumped the shark and forced blind faith to be the only requirement. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:52:07 AM EDT
[#29]
God created the Universe, by causing the Big Bang!!
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:59:01 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems like most everyone thinks they need to know the answer. What's wrong with "I don't know." Nothing. Unless of course you stop there. Science IS saying "I don't know" and following that with "lets find out." |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:59:32 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: God created the Universe, by causing the Big Bang!! Did not. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:03:08 PM EDT
[#32]
The science backs up universal genesis via the Big Bang. But where did the Big Bang come from? Like we'll ever know!
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:16:44 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well it's a predominantly "Active" god world, filled with people who insist he does care and takes an active part in cancer, Tim Tebow's football career, and listening to us every Sunday. It's hard not to make that the basis of the argument, especially in GD. But, it's also possible he's a totally "hands off" god, and in that case, it doesn't really matter. If there's evidence of him, I imagine eventually someone or some thing will find it. Science has had flawed assumptions countless times about the workings of the universe - for centuries we thought Newtonian physics governed it all, but evidence said otherwise...even when predominant scientific communities doubted. If it's the hand of god, I'm perfectly willing to accept that, given some evidence. I can't be the only person open to it, even among the scientific community. Einstein was looking in that direction, in a way, was he not? There are many more options that just those two. I tend to believe that God is activist in the sense that I think he set a lot of things in motion - in general using the laws of physics rather than breaking them. But I also think that we have free will and that sometimes God needs to bail us out a little, like a child who has trouble riding a bike and needs the training wheels put back on. That's why I think God sometimes bends the rules and, for instance, will sometimes cause a spontaneous remission of cancer that goes against all medical science in one child, while the child next to him dies of the same disease. Not because God favored one over the other, but that sometimes we need a little more help that the laws of physics are want to provide. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:21:18 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Science assumes nothing, and proves nothing. It simply gathers evidence in support of theories. The theories always remain malleable. There is, for example, mountains of evidence to support the theory of gravity. But if we wake up tomorrow and we are all floating in the air, then science will modify the theory based on the new evidence. If there are gods, science only needs evidence of them. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:23:04 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In the end, if there is any evidence of God, it will trump the evidence of natural forces. Science can be subject to the predisposition of a person or persons, but inevitably, observation, evidence and facts win the day. It really doesn't matter if "science" (meaning people) assumes a natural world. If God chooses to make a case for himself, by oh I dunno, appearing in the mid-day sky as a disembodied head that speaks the exact same message to all creation, then blocks out the sun for 7 days, stops the light of the stars and forces even the most jaded scientist to live in darkness for a week to ponder what they just witnessed, it will call for some serious re-examination of the natural world. But, as of now, god is silent except in the minds of people who already believe, and things throughout the course of human history once thought to be the hand or domain of god have proven to be natural, or repeatable, or explainable by simple forces....the law of expanding margins, if you will. I've been saying since I was a child, that if God wants us all to believe it's as simple as showing up to the ball field with his mitt on. And, I care not a whit what a book has to say about reasons he does not. He and his sons (as most gods in most myths have also done) showed up to convince some people, long ago, who apparently needed convincing. It's in his bag of tricks, and if it took miracles and showing up to get the ancients on board, it will take much the same for me. I'm all ears....as are most good scientists. You're assuming that God is the Christian God and that if you don't believe, then bad things will happen to you. What if God doesn't care? One of the themes running through a lot of Near-Death Experiences is a more universal concept of God who doesn't particularly care about what we believe on earth, because once we return to him his existence will be quite obvious. Our ignorance on this world is a condition of the test to allow us to experience the world from a multiple of perspectives over many lives. Basically the last chapter of Plato's Republic. Well it's a predominantly "Active" god world, filled with people who insist he does care and takes an active part in cancer, Tim Tebow's football career, and listening to us every Sunday. It's hard not to make that the basis of the argument, especially in GD. But, it's also possible he's a totally "hands off" god, and in that case, it doesn't really matter. If there's evidence of him, I imagine eventually someone or some thing will find it. Science has had flawed assumptions countless times about the workings of the universe - for centuries we thought Newtonian physics governed it all, but evidence said otherwise...even when predominant scientific communities doubted. If it's the hand of god, I'm perfectly willing to accept that, given some evidence. I can't be the only person open to it, even among the scientific community. Einstein was looking in that direction, in a way, was he not? The problem with God and science is that the fundamental premise is that God can't be measured. By definition, an infinite value can't be measured. It makes the whole point moot. Even demonstrable miracles are just as easily explained by saying any other deity could accomplish it. Essentially, Christianity jumped the shark and forced blind faith to be the only requirement. But what if our concept of god is just wrong? What if what created it all was an inter-dimensional, "super being" who has powers we would attribute to a god, but is otherwise measurable? What if the multi-verse is just a really old, revolving spigot of big bangs, black holes, all circling around time/space controlled or set about by beings who manipulate it? They might be measurable. Or, it could be multiple gods, or maybe the Greeks had it right. In any case, I'm still fine with whatever/whoever showing up, parting the skies and saying "Hey gais, whassup?" Come crashing through the atmosphere like a cosmic Kool-Aid, and I'll believe and need very little in the way of scientific explanation. God of the bible showed up for a follower here and there, or sent his kid with some magic tricks. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:23:30 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did not. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: God created the Universe, by causing the Big Bang!! Did not. Did to. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:24:43 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All deductive logical thought includes assumptions. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Science assumes nothing, and proves nothing. It simply gathers evidence in support of theories. The theories always remain malleable. There is, for example, mountains of evidence to support the theory of gravity. But if we wake up tomorrow and we are all floating in the air, then science will modify the theory based on the new evidence. If there are gods, science only needs evidence of them. Yes, but they are a human mechanism by which we APPLY science to seek answers. Science itself does not need assumptions. In fact, they slow it down...because they can predispose a person into trying to fit the evidence to an assumption.
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:28:24 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did to(sic). Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: God created the Universe, by causing the Big Bang!! Did not. Did to(sic). Not. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:49:08 PM EDT
[#39]
The observational evidence for the Big Bang is overwhelming. The universe IS expanding, and the Cosmic Microwave Background is the light or echo left over for it.
So now it's not an issue of "Big Bang or God" but one of "Did God set off the Big Bang?" Evidence for God: The force of gravity, and the charge of the electron, and the strong nuclear force are so finely balanced, that if they were off by as much as .00001% in either direction, there would be no stars, no heavier elements, no planets, (no Earth) and no life (no "us".) Gravity too high in proportion, any matter from the Big Bang would just collapse into black holes. The various atomic forces too high in proportion, matter would clump up into hydrogen black dwarfs and then never change. So the REAL question is not "God or the Big Bang", but a question of the strong vs. the weak anthropomorphic principle, which is arguably answered by whether or not a quantum infinite multiverse exists or not. If this is the "only Universe", it is a very strong hint that there is some kind of directed and organized principle behind our universe for it to turn out so perfectly. Evidence for no God (or at least a very uninvolved one): If there's an infinite quantum or higher dimensional multiverse out there, then it's likely we're only here because we're in the one among a sea of universes where the laws of physics turned out right by random chance to allow for us to exist and wonder about all of this. There's an infinite number of 'wrong' universes where matter can't exist, gravity is too high or too low, the speed of light is some weird value... or scenarios we can't even understand. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 12:52:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The observational evidence for the Big Bang is overwhelming. The universe IS expanding, and the Cosmic Microwave Background is the light or echo left over for it. So now it's not an issue of "Big Bang or God" but one of "Did God set off the Big Bang?" Evidence for God: The force of gravity, and the charge of the electron, and the strong nuclear force are so finely balanced, that if they were off by as much as .00001% in either direction, there would be no stars, no heavier elements, no planets, (no Earth) and no life (no "us".) Gravity too high in proportion, any matter from the Big Bang would just collapse into black holes. The various atomic forces too high in proportion, matter would clump up into hydrogen black dwarfs and then never change. So the REAL question is not "God or the Big Bang", but a question of the strong vs. the weak anthropomorphic principle, which is arguably answered by whether or not a quantum infinite multiverse exists or not. If this is the "only Universe", it is a very strong hint that there is some kind of directed and organized principle behind our universe for it to turn out so perfectly. Evidence for no God (or at least a very uninvolved one): If there's an infinite quantum or higher dimensional multiverse out there, then it's likely we're only here because we're in the one among a sea of universes where the laws of physics turned out right by random chance to allow for us to exist and wonder about all of this. There's an infinite number of 'wrong' universes where matter can't exist, gravity is too high or too low, the speed of light is some weird value... or scenarios we can't even understand. That's not evidence for God. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:23:59 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, Hubble's discovery was contrary to the expected slowing of the expansion of the universe due to gravity. We don't know exactly why the universe is expanding at an accelerated pace. We have discovered dark matter and dark energy and currently we use their existence at the causal factor. We can infer their existence from the gravitational impacts they cause when viewing distant galaxies. Dark matter causes twists and bubbles in space which warps the light and energy those distant galaxies emit. We have observed these effects with the HST. There are experiments going on right now that are trying to better understand the effects of dark energy, we just don't know exactly what is going on with it but we are trying to learn. Hubble found through direct spectral observation that the farther galaxies he observed where shifted toward the color red, known as red shift. Because of the finite speed of light the faster things go away from you the more the light they emit turns toward the red color. The wave length changes and stretches out. Eventually you get past visible light and end up in wave lengths that the satalites and experiments I mentioned detect. If you put your car radio on AM and between stations you hear static, about 1 % of that noise is the Big Bang. The farther you get from civilization then the 1% goes up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Believe in a god all you want but if someone believes the bible got it right then they are not reading the bible. It is not the answer so keep looking for a better book to worship. I tried and there is not one book that has all the answers and there never will be. By using the scientific process we are slowly figuring out how it all fits together. I am perfectly fine with a finite life and not having the answers. I am not fine with not looking for the answers through logical processes that science has taught us. As of now based on the direct observation using various experiments such as WMAP and COBE we have see evidence that supports the big bang theory and the age of the universe. Edwin Hubble discovered red shift and the expanding universe that expands faster the father out we look. These experiments support the Big Bang. If we learn more in the future that changes what we know, GREAT!!!! I effing LOVE science and astronomy, it speaks the truth to all of us by being self correctly and open to critical review. Religion does not do this and never has. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTSRI9Nq-WjM-ZcF9J07EEOfV8vdDrs51ClveTVNjMds6RDirmQLA I subscribe to the big bang, it is to me the most plausible explanation. I know I don't understand a lot of the physics. When we look out to the furthest edge of the observable universe we are seeing back in time 13 billion years, within a few hundred thousand years of the big bang itself. If the expansion were slowing, over time, wouldn't we expect the further into the past we looked the galaxies would be moving away faster? Yep, Hubble's discovery was contrary to the expected slowing of the expansion of the universe due to gravity. We don't know exactly why the universe is expanding at an accelerated pace. We have discovered dark matter and dark energy and currently we use their existence at the causal factor. We can infer their existence from the gravitational impacts they cause when viewing distant galaxies. Dark matter causes twists and bubbles in space which warps the light and energy those distant galaxies emit. We have observed these effects with the HST. There are experiments going on right now that are trying to better understand the effects of dark energy, we just don't know exactly what is going on with it but we are trying to learn. Hubble found through direct spectral observation that the farther galaxies he observed where shifted toward the color red, known as red shift. Because of the finite speed of light the faster things go away from you the more the light they emit turns toward the red color. The wave length changes and stretches out. Eventually you get past visible light and end up in wave lengths that the satalites and experiments I mentioned detect. If you put your car radio on AM and between stations you hear static, about 1 % of that noise is the Big Bang. The farther you get from civilization then the 1% goes up. I understand red shift and the Doppler effect. What I was trying to ask is, if the universe were slowing down, wouldn't looking into the distant past see it expanding at a faster rate then as compared to now?  Please take into account that I am a lay person and a little dense.
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:29:29 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Now you can't claim free will and still have him all knowing. I don't think this follows logically. It would if God were a being that was constrained by time like we are. Just because He is able to know what we are going to choose does not pre-ordain that we choose it. If you want a scientific sounding explanation, imagine if God already knows the result of the wave function for...everything. It's kind of like that. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:33:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Quien sabe?
I sure don't know. There's a possibility that an intelligent agent is behind the creation of our universe, though whether we would recognize that being as anything we'd consider a "God" is debatable. It's also very likely that we just don't know enough about the physics of the universe's existence (or what we even mean by the term "universe") to say how it began or even whether speaking of its "beginning" has any meaning at all. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:37:26 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There must be shitloads of aliens out there then. That means the likelihood that we have, and are being visited is really high. Probes, anal probes as far as the eye can see. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
God created everything via science. Do you know the probably of all this shit just happening? It's in the fucking trillions. If a infinite universe is a possibility, the odds are actually really good. Like, infinitely good. Problem: as a human, I have no idea how to even start processing the word or concept of "infinite" There must be shitloads of aliens out there then. That means the likelihood that we have, and are being visited is really high. Probes, anal probes as far as the eye can see. Not necessarily. Even if there are shitloads of aliens, consider how costly it is to build a spacecraft to travel to another to do...what? Anally violate rural drunks and steal cows? Doesn't make sense. If there are shitloads of aliens, we won't be seeing them. Nothing is to be gained by spending the considerable resources required to get here. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:39:40 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just because He is able to know what we are going to choose does not pre-ordain that we choose it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Now you can't claim free will and still have him all knowing. Just because He is able to know what we are going to choose does not pre-ordain that we choose it. Huh? That made my head hurt. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:39:51 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's not evidence for God. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The observational evidence for the Big Bang is overwhelming. The universe IS expanding, and the Cosmic Microwave Background is the light or echo left over for it. So now it's not an issue of "Big Bang or God" but one of "Did God set off the Big Bang?" Evidence for God: The force of gravity, and the charge of the electron, and the strong nuclear force are so finely balanced, that if they were off by as much as .00001% in either direction, there would be no stars, no heavier elements, no planets, (no Earth) and no life (no "us".) Gravity too high in proportion, any matter from the Big Bang would just collapse into black holes. The various atomic forces too high in proportion, matter would clump up into hydrogen black dwarfs and then never change. So the REAL question is not "God or the Big Bang", but a question of the strong vs. the weak anthropomorphic principle, which is arguably answered by whether or not a quantum infinite multiverse exists or not. If this is the "only Universe", it is a very strong hint that there is some kind of directed and organized principle behind our universe for it to turn out so perfectly. Evidence for no God (or at least a very uninvolved one): If there's an infinite quantum or higher dimensional multiverse out there, then it's likely we're only here because we're in the one among a sea of universes where the laws of physics turned out right by random chance to allow for us to exist and wonder about all of this. There's an infinite number of 'wrong' universes where matter can't exist, gravity is too high or too low, the speed of light is some weird value... or scenarios we can't even understand. That's not evidence for God. It's not conclusive evidence for "God". (And I'm using the word "God" as a stand in for a whole host of things, that vaguely imply some sort of directed intelligence, or higher organizing principles) But if there's only one Universe, the "just so" balance of basic physical laws/forces in our Universe, out of a potentially infinite number of combinations... it's an extremely low probability event. Like winning the lottery 10 times in a row, plus being hit by lightning and surviving 3-4 times in-between. If there's an infinity of Universes, or just an extremely high number of them, and growing all the time, then the odds of an infinite number, or just a large number of Universes turning out like it did is a high probability. It's like anything else in statistics. If you've got a set of dice, and you've only got six times to roll them, and you get boxcars all six times, you're going to suspect loaded dice. If you get a billion or more rolls, and one time you get six boxcars in a row, it's "Meh. Had to happen sooner or later." |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:47:01 PM EDT
[#47]
What about the possibility that the universe has formed countless times and experienced the big crunch countless times until now?
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:49:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
God is science. He created science. +1 |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 1:55:29 PM EDT
[#49]
all the mass in order for there to be a big bang had to come from somewhere. I don't think about it much because ultimately who gives a shit. Your belief is yours mine is mine.
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Posted: 1/29/2015 2:00:28 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What about the possibility that the universe has formed countless times and experienced the big crunch countless times until now? That was a popular idea up until the 1980's or so, when it became clear from more refined study of distant galactic redshifts, that the Universe wasn't ever going to slow down. And now that they can see that dark energy is actually accelerating the expansion, not a chance. So not only once all the stars and Hydrogen are used up, and black holes have nothing to "eat", and the Universe suffers the "heat death" of cold and darkness, with increasingly less frequent neutron star and black hole collisions, and then the black holes evaporating through Hawking Radiation after hundreds of billions of years, the remaining atoms and photons themselves will get ripped apart into an almost, but just barely non-zero amount of energy because space/time itself is expanding faster and faster. One thing postulated is that the Universe did cycle like this for a time, with a Big Bang, and a Big Crunch, but due to entropy, we're now in the cycle where it won't ever fall back in on itself. However, the findings of other aspects of astronomy and modern cosmology also make this unlikely. That each unique Big Bang (if there's more than one Universe) arises only once from things like the base level of quantum fluctuations, or collisions between higher dimensions. |
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