One of my all time favorites.

This is one thing that really pisses me off about U.S. foreign aid. Every year we give something like $1.5 billion to the likes of Pakistan, a nation that for all intents and purposes harbored Osama bin Laden and still likely harbors Al-Zawahiri today. Those people are not our friends. Any military aid money we give them is a complete waste. If anything, we should be bombing the fuckers rather than providing them with money and tech. The government types can spin it however they want, but Pakistan isn't nor will it ever be a friend to the United States. With that in mind, I wish we would take that annual $1.5 billion and give it to countries like Estonia. You may only have a tiny population, but I bet you could buy enough hardware with that sort of money to make any attempted Russian invasion/occupation a nightmare for them. And unlike the Pakistanis, you guys are indeed real friends deserving of such support.

And besides just defense funds, we have lots of useful hardware just sitting around not being used. I wonder just how many M113 APCs there are sitting in storage around this country. The same goes for artillery pieces. Rather than dumping surplus tanks and armored vehicles into the fucking ocean to serve as artificial reefs (a very democrat thing to do I might add), we should be giving them to our friends to help them hold off potential enemies like Putin. And there are likely hundreds or maybe even a thousand used F-16s sitting in storage at AMARC, some of them reasonably fresh. How about we pull some of those from storage, bring them up to Block 52+ or Block 60 standards and sell them at a discount price (or even donate some of them) to the Baltic states? That would greatly help them in their air policing mission and make them less dependent on NATO.

That said, you should not have to stand alone against Russia. If Russia attempts any such moves on ANY country that is a NATO member, I as an American expect my elected leadership to follow through with their obligations and bring forth a massive response in reply. I was alive for the latter portion of the Cold War and never again do I want to see any sovereign countries behind the Iron Curtain. If Russia insists on war, then by god, give it to them with both barrels. To stand around and do nothing while they attack NATO member states would be the worst thing we could do. Some things are worth fighting for. Preventing a new Soviet Union under the leadership of Vladimir Putin is one of those things. And even my old ass would be willing to fight for that cause if Uncle Sam will take me.

Statist Lithuanians attack the very Principles of Freedum' with their Indentured Gubermint Servitude.

True Lovers of Liberty would retreat to Galt's Gulch and just wait for the bad people to go away.

This is not 1969. Puting would get a bloody nose from the Poles. More like Miracle of Warsaw.

And yes, I am serious. The Poles would kick the Russians like the dogs they are.

No love for the Russians from my side, FVP and FBHO

WTF could have France and England have done in 1939 to stop the Germans? THey declared WAR on the Nazis over Poland. I would not call that letting them hang out to dry. 1945 otoh...

They should of gone to war far before that. The Germans repeatedly violated the treaty of Versailles in the 30s instead of smashing them early on they picked appeasement.

 

You would have millions of neo nazis that way "we did not do anything and the others were the aggressor"

Better kick them with their pants down.

millions of neo nazis vs 60 million deaths?

 

What alternate reality are YOU living in, sunshine???? Wait, did you mean obama would send B2s in to help Putin? If so, I apologize.

As stupid as the declaration of "peace in our day" was, the reality is that Britain was not really in any position that early to do much of anything vis a vis Germany.

They will get hung out to dry.

Look at Ukraine.


Seriously look at the events in Bosnia and Yugoslavia...did intervention happen right away????

It took a WAG THE DOG event for Clinton to even intervene.


Fucken scummy communist democrats.

We all would.

Well, both countries could have not made promises to Poland that they knew they couldn't keep.  They could have better supported Poland's military buildup prior to the war.  After the invasion, both countries waited two days to even declare war.  France waited a week, then "counterattacked" by advancing 8 miles into Germany, stopping, and then telling the Poles to hold out at the Romanian border until the Allies could get there.  The British arrived in Europe on October 3 (Belgium, not Poland) and waited there.  Poland surrendered on October 10.  

Basically, the British knew they couldn't help Poland.  They promised help to Poland to encourage them to sacrifice themselves so Britain would have time to spool up.  Great deal for Britain; but I'm thinking Poland might have sought other alliances had they known what those promises were worth.

No, they just don't understand that the latest reorganization and disposition of the Russian Army largely takes the conventional brigades off the table as intervention options, other than in Russia itself or on the immediate periphery, which Poland is not part of. And its not like they're gonna invade with just a few airborne regiments and naval infantry battalions.

There is simply no logistics mechanism in the current Russian army to support sending the bulk of the Leningrad and Moscow military districts 800+ miles to Poland. The days of the Soviet offensive machine are dead and gone.

They could do it just wouldn't be very successful. US is still the king of logistics

We saw how useful NATO was after 9/11 and they voluntarily invoked Article 5.

US: We need  NATO troops to join in combat ground combat in Afghanistan.

NATO: You were serious about that?

Utterly untrue.

They do. And also a shitlload of Leopards thry are modernizing.

No doubt, but we are the peasants of Executive leadership. . .



 

Western Europe isn't going to war for Polan or Eesti.

The US? Yeah.

Spain, Belgium, Germany? Nope.

The anti NATO stuff that permeates the American Right is fascinating to come across, and it's all over this thread. I wouldn't at all be surprised if some of the messaging didn't originate elsewhere.

France could have in '39, save for inept leadership.  The Germans had orders to retreat at the first counter attack by France when they invaded. (I think I remember that right)


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Nyet, comrade. Is pravda. Completely true.

The American Right seems to hate NATO as much as our Left does.

Russia gets fucked.

 


Probably because NATO is viewed as European military welfare supported by the 53% of adults in the US who are actually Taxpayers.


It was sustainable in the 1950's when half of the world's economy was the USA, not anymore.


I don't have a giant hard on for NATO, other than it's subsidizing most of the participants who don't have to pay a pro rata share for their own defense.

Oh, our far Left does too, but the mainstream Left keeps those guys more effectively quiet, while the mainstream Right has lost its way, replaced by what you see here every day.

Clinton took the banner of the neoliberal Washington consensus in the '90s, and somehow we decided the only alternative was to derp hard and derp often.  Thus even when we elected a classic Social Democrat - or worse - it was apparently too late to get back in the game, the cat was out of the bag.  Now, it's all about just pulling out of the game entirely, lest one be a "statist." The closest thing the EU seems to have is those Euroskeptic crowd.

Our Left mostly sees it as a tool of American imperialism.

Yup. Most of the Euroskeptic parties are Populist in nature. They live off of fear mongering and easy answers.

NATO used to be the Protect Germany Club.

I feel bad for the newcomers to NATO like the teensy Baltic states, Romania, etc. They are the ones who would theoretically need protection, and they sure as hell aren't going to get meaningful POMCUS sites, or  a new British Army of the Vistula, ReForLatvia sites, etc.

Yeah non nuclear, Poland could hold out.  What would be left of her in 6 weeks of Russian tactics(Shelling the the hell outa every thing) would be what both sides need to think about before hand.  Russia will use Arty and Rockets but the Poles will turn their own country into a giant Stalingrad battle.  It would be a fucking mess

I do not think there would be many Polish soldiers alive at the end of the six weeks.

I also believe there would be scores more dead Russians, because the Polaks would fight to the last breath. They're goddamn tired of being exterminated, and would go down fighting rather than waiting to be executed.

Poland should never have been allowed into NATO. Why the hell should we want to go to war with Russia over Poland?

It's should be.

Whole world would be better off if it were.

Amatuers worry about tactics, professionals worry about logistics.

Despite all the chest thumping Russia does their track record for effectively launching military operations outside their own borders leaves something to be desired. Even back during the Soviet  war in Afghanistan they had a lot of issues that shouldn't have existed for a modern military. Seriously they just figured out in 2014 regular access to showers and laundry facilities really improved the health of their soldiers.

Eh. I wouldn't bet on it. Poland owns more leapord II's then the Germans do.

Now that's pretty funny.

FIFY

Got news for you...there is a thing called a global economy and the US has foreign interests in that economy.  Specifically a secure Europe which is a very large trading partner with the US.

Because Poland has been a strong partner in the WOT.

Only the US and UK didn't use lots of horse transport in WWII, and their armies were only about the size of the mechanized portion of the German army.  The Germans used some  horse cavalry on the eastern front, where there was a lot of ground to cover, and very few roads.  Mechanized warfare was new and everyone was still learning how to do it.

By the way, the US still had two horse cavalry divisions in 1940.  Troops were mounted on captured horses and mules during the campaigns in Sicily and Italy.  The Coast Guard used thousands of horses for mounted patrols of US beaches.  Mules were an important part of the supply chain in several theaters.  All in all, the US military used more than 50,000 horses and mules in WWII.

France could have stopped WWII and deposed Hitler in 1936 when he re-militarized the Rhineland.  France could have told them get out or we will make you.  German officer corps at this point was very aware of their inferiority to the French Army.  Hitler then could have been "deposed" by military coup with the full support of the French.

Why didn't the British and French declare war on the Soviets when they invaded Poland?

Perhaps the Russian threat (however real) against Poland and the Baltic states is just what Western Europe needs to actually start taking their own defense seriously and quit looking for America to save them.  Those days are rapidly fading.  The question are we past the denial and into the acceptance phase.

NATO = America.  

I don't see "NATO" currently intervening over the Baltic nations or Poland.

The interesting thing will be to see the response from Poland's neighbor to the West.  

We know of France's response to the Soviets coming west of the Rhine.  I wonder it the Germans would do the same to Russians coming west of the Vistula.

Israel could put up a good fight, and do regularly.

Poland had the 2nd highest loss of life in the Middle East.

Your ignorance. It's showing.

My impression is that Poland has been a faithful ally to the USA.

And they hate Russians.

Nice avatar.

The real question is how long until someone pops a nuke?

Russia has artillery...very good artillery and lots of it along with the willingness to use it without worries about ROEs.

Unless NATO is ready for full scale mechanized warfare, Russia would walk all over Poland with Poland taking huge casualties and inflicting similar on the Russians...but the Russians are willing to take casualties.

The Polish are good people and have been strong in the GWOT.  We should stand with them if something goes sideways.