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Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:10:54 AM EDT
[#1]
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I think you are going out of your way to read things into that statement that weren't there.
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Explain to me how the Pope (or anyone, really) can logically say God can't and/or won't do things that aren't in accordance with the natural rules and laws He set in place...and then still claim that turning water into wine, bringing people who've been dead for days back to life, instantly healing the blind and the lame, and a virgin giving birth 1,900 years before test-tube babies...are to be celebrated as miracles of God?

Is the Pope somehow insinuating that God changed His mind after creation and decided to break all those rules and start doing miracles?

I think you are going out of your way to read things into that statement that weren't there.

Here are his exact words:
“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.

I don't understand how one can logically say God couldn't wave "a magic wand" to create the universe, and then still acknowledge the reality of miracles. It doesn't make sense.

Also, if there really is a God, you know, an "all-powerful" and "all knowing" type of God, I can't see how the Pope's statement is an accurate description of Him. Either God is Omnipotent (able to do everything and anything) or He isn't.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:12:29 AM EDT
[#2]
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That's the kind of music programme I wish we had at my church.  For our EF Masses the choir is a handful of mostly elderly people who have minimal singing ability (they have a lot of difficulty harmonizing and staying on-key).  Sometimes we have some brothers from a monastery join in; not sure where they come from, though. Their choir robes are white with a red Maltese cross on the front, back, and sides.
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That's actually a nice design.  Like something the Knights of Malta would wear under their chain mail.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:20:52 AM EDT
[#3]
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So either everything is a miracle or nothing is?
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Whats next, Pope? Christ didn't rise from the dead?

God's not a magician, remember. So, miracles are out, too.


Explain to me how the Pope (or anyone, really) can logically say God can't and/or won't do things that aren't in accordance with the natural rules and laws He set in place...and then still claim that turning water into wine, bringing people who've been dead for days back to life, instantly healing the blind and the lame, and a virgin giving birth 1,900 years before test-tube babies...are to be celebrated as miracles of God?

Is the Pope somehow insinuating that God changed His mind after creation and decided to break all those rules and start doing miracles?

So either everything is a miracle or nothing is?

That's not what I'm saying.

Why would the Pope (again, or anyone that believes in an Omnipotent God) claim God couldn't wave "a magic wand" to create the universe because He doesn't work that way, but also claim (and even list and institutionalize and celebrate) God does miracles that clearly exist outside all the natural laws He was supposedly constrained by when creating the universe?

I'm having a hard time understanding how the Pope can tell me with a straight face that God can't operate outside the natural laws He created and then in the same breath tell me virgin births, the dead coming back to life, water turning instantly into wine, and diseases and infirmities instantly being cured are legit.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:27:49 AM EDT
[#4]
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Faith v. Works debate coming up!
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This set of Biblical Scriptures has to do with Christ commissioning the disciples by command to forgive anyone along the way of their upcoming ministries concerning forgiving unbelievers for offenses and violent actions against them.
In other words, God in the form of Jesus Christ was not commanding the 12 to forgive any individual of their own personal sins as a practice such as the Catholic church does, but rather only the ones committed against them personally.
For example if they were beaten for preaching the good news of Christ and forgave their assailants then God would forgive the assailants sin against them. However if they did not implore God directly through prayer to forgive their assailants, then the sins of the transgressor, which in this case would be persons which  had done them harm would not receive forgiveness as now there sins would be retained by them.

Not the other.


In other words, God's mercy was limited by human charity?


Faith v. Works debate coming up!


Thread won't be complete until we get that
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:32:34 AM EDT
[#5]
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That's not what I'm saying.

Why would the Pope (again, or anyone that believes in an Omnipotent God) claim God couldn't wave "a magic wand" to create the universe because He doesn't work that way, but also claim (and even list and institutionalize and celebrate) God does miracles that clearly exist outside all the natural laws He was supposedly constrained by when creating the universe?

I'm having a hard time understanding how the Pope can tell me with a straight face that God can't operate outside the natural laws He created and then in the same breath tell me virgin births, the dead coming back to life, water turning instantly into wine, and diseases and infirmities instantly being cured are legit.
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The big bang seems kind of magical to me. Everything in the universe was the size of a pea and then blew up.   While i understand big bang and evolution don't explain how life started every attempt to explain how it started seems to me.  Plus intelligent design would require God to tinker with RNA/DNA to get the ball rolling.

disclaimer: I'm not a scientist, i'm just a caveman lawyer.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:38:30 AM EDT
[#6]
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Here are his exact words:

I don't understand how one can logically say God couldn't wave "a magic wand" to create the universe, and then still acknowledge the reality of miracles. It doesn't make sense.

Also, if there really is a God, you know, an "all-powerful" and "all knowing" type of God, I can't see how the Pope's statement is an accurate description of Him. Either God is Omnipotent (able to do everything and anything) or He isn't.
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Here are his exact words:
“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.

I don't understand how one can logically say God couldn't wave "a magic wand" to create the universe, and then still acknowledge the reality of miracles. It doesn't make sense.

Also, if there really is a God, you know, an "all-powerful" and "all knowing" type of God, I can't see how the Pope's statement is an accurate description of Him. Either God is Omnipotent (able to do everything and anything) or He isn't.


I don't see anything wrong with what the Pope said.  The strictly literal interpretation of Genesis has some big theological problems in terms of seeing God as another - granted the biggest - actor in a preexisting universe.

It's the whole Instantaneous v. Episodic model of creation.  And, as Father Lemaitre demonstrated, it's the Instantaneous model that's supported by the science.

I posted this link earlier but the whole thing is outstanding for anyone who really wants to understand the Catholic/Thomistic understanding of creation:  Creation, Evolution and Aquinas.  The Pope's statement makes sense once you appreciate the theological perspective he's coming from.

A good excerpt:

The scientific works of Aristotle and several of his mediaeval commentators provided an arsenal of arguments which appear, at least, to be contrary to the truths of Christianity. In particular, how is one to reconcile the claim, found throughout Aristotle, that the world is eternal with the Christian affirmation of creation, a creation understood as meaning that the world is temporally finite, that is, has a temporal beginning of its existence? In 1215 the Fourth Lateran Council had solemnly proclaimed that God created all that is from nothing [de nihil condidit] and that this creation occurred ab initio temporis. In 1277 the Bishop of Paris, Étienne Tempier, issued a list of propositions condemned as heretical, among them the claim that the world is eternal. As chancellor of the University of Paris, the bishop was well aware of the debates about creation and the eternity of the world which raged through the thirteenth century. [12] The controversy was part of the wider encounter between the heritage of classical antiquity and the doctrines of Christianity: an encounter between those claims to truth founded on reason and those founded on faith. If faith affirms that the world has a temporal beginning, can reason demonstrate this must be true? What can reason demonstrate about the fact of creation itself, as distinct from the question of a temporal beginning? Indeed, can one speak of creation as distinct from a temporally finite universe? These are some of the questions which thirteenth century Christian thinkers confronted as they wrestled with the heritage of Greek science...

Aquinas, following the lead of Augustine, thinks that the natural sciences serve as a kind of veto in biblical interpretation. Augustine observed that when discussing passages of the Bible that refer, or seem to refer, to natural phenomena one should defer to the authority of the sciences, when available, to show what the text cannot mean. In examining, for example whether the light spoken of in the opening of Genesis (before the creation of the Sun and the Moon) is physical light, Augustine says that if physicists show us that there cannot be physical light without a luminous source then we know that this particular passage does not refer to physical light. [26] The Bible cannot authentically be understood as affirming as true what the natural sciences teach us is false...

According to Aquinas, natural things disclose an intrinsic intelligibility and directedness in their behavior, which require that God be the source. Finality and purpose, keys to an argument for the existence of God, have their foundation in nature as a principle in things. Eight hundred years before Aquinas, Augustine makes a crucial distinction between God's causal activity and what in our own day has come to be called "intelligent design." "It is one thing to build and to govern creatures from within and from the summit of the whole causal nexus and only God, the Creator, does this; it is another thing to apply externally forces and capacities bestowed by Him in order to bring forth at such and such a time, or in such and such a shape, what has been created. For all things were created at the beginning, being primordially woven into the texture of the world; but they await the proper opportunity for their existence."[40]


This is interesting (to me anyway) because, as much as secularists like to claim the Church impeded scientific understanding, in this case they acted in the defense of scientific truth - namely the idea that the universe was not eternal and had a definite beginning (and idea even Einstein resisted until Father Lemaitre demonstrated it mathematically).
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:52:44 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:56:16 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:

Here are his exact words:

I don't understand how one can logically say God couldn't wave "a magic wand" to create the universe, and then still acknowledge the reality of miracles. It doesn't make sense.

Also, if there really is a God, you know, an "all-powerful" and "all knowing" type of God, I can't see how the Pope's statement is an accurate description of Him. Either God is Omnipotent (able to do everything and anything) or He isn't.
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Explain to me how the Pope (or anyone, really) can logically say God can't and/or won't do things that aren't in accordance with the natural rules and laws He set in place...and then still claim that turning water into wine, bringing people who've been dead for days back to life, instantly healing the blind and the lame, and a virgin giving birth 1,900 years before test-tube babies...are to be celebrated as miracles of God?

Is the Pope somehow insinuating that God changed His mind after creation and decided to break all those rules and start doing miracles?

I think you are going out of your way to read things into that statement that weren't there.

Here are his exact words:
“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.

I don't understand how one can logically say God couldn't wave "a magic wand" to create the universe, and then still acknowledge the reality of miracles. It doesn't make sense.

Also, if there really is a God, you know, an "all-powerful" and "all knowing" type of God, I can't see how the Pope's statement is an accurate description of Him. Either God is Omnipotent (able to do everything and anything) or He isn't.


He is referring to an absurdly simplistic and anthopomorphic image of a magician with a magic wand "poofing things" into existence.  He is not saying God couldn't "poof" things into existence, or couldn't look like Merlin if he wanted too. He's just saying that such an image is extremely limiting and, in the case of the Creation, fails to account for observable facts.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:57:43 AM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 8:58:16 AM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:00:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:04:41 AM EDT
[#12]
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  It's not a revision if it was always meant that way.  What has been revised is our understanding of it.
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If it holds or fosters a belief that the standing word of God is to be revised as to take away its literal meaning to be replaced with something else, that being anything else that would supersede the word of God, or the Christian Holy Bible then yes, it is not only heretical but also abominable in the eyes of God.
Are we on the same page here, or are you suggesting something else?

How many Bibles do you guys got?

  It's not a revision if it was always meant that way.  What has been revised is our understanding of it.


Yeah, I'm not sure how an expanded understanding of the natural world can be 'abominable in the eyes of God' considering that He created the natural world in the first place (not to mention creating within us the rational capacity to understand His creation).

Some people read books in order to find God.  Yet there is a great book, the very order of created things.  Look above you; look below you!  Note it; read it!  God, whom you wish to find, never wrote that book with ink.  Instead, he set before your eyes the things He had made.  Can you ask for a louder voice than that?  Why, heaven and earth cry out to you:  “God made me!”

St Augustine


There's always been something vaguely Gnostic in the dualistic matter-bad/spirit-good worldview many Protestant Fundamentalists seem to hold.  God created matter so it has to in some manner reflect His goodness.  In that sense their fear of natural understanding seems to reflect a lack of faith.

Like Aquinas said, "Anything that can be loved less by being understood more isn't worthy of love."
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:05:59 AM EDT
[#13]
There are many places in the Bible where men fell down like dead people from being even close to the light from God.



Just for yucks, maybe God's light illuminated everything before he actually created another light source. Really doesn't matter to me. God has the power to do anything he wants and it doesn't have to fit into our understanding of science and natural laws.  Our small brains always try to fit God into some box we understand.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:16:21 AM EDT
[#14]

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Just like the Pope has met with leaders of non-Christian religions and "blended" with them, right?
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There is a reason that a bunch of protestant evangelicals like Ken Copeland, Joel Osteen among others met with the Pope in the last year. There will be a blending and giant compromise. ymmv  


 
Just like the Pope has met with leaders of non-Christian religions and "blended" with them, right?
The Pope himself has said his goal is to bring the protestants back into the fold. Ecumenicalism has been going on for a long time. Imho, the blending will be the protestants doing most of the compromising with the RC Church being the dominant force in the world wide theocracy that SAE was discussing. Just my personal belief, time will tell.

 
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:24:11 AM EDT
[#15]
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...  Our small brains always try to fit God into some box we understand.
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You man, like a literal reading of Genesis?
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:24:16 AM EDT
[#16]
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I've never thought religion and science were mutually exclusive.  

Big Bang, to me, is "let there be light, and there was."  It, actually, makes more sense to me than a standalone "Nobody+ Nothing = Everything" stance.

Evolution may have been God "growing" man.  Although evolution is missing many links...

And everyone spouting time inconsistencies seems laughable to me.
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I agree with you. Who is to say God's seven days were not billions of years to us?
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:24:33 AM EDT
[#17]
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Independent.uk Link

The theories of evolution and the Big Bang are real and God is not “a magician with a magic wand”, Pope Francis has declared.

Speaking at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the Pope made comments which experts said put an end to the “pseudo theories” of creationism and intelligent design that some argue were encouraged by his predecessor, Benedict XVI.

Francis explained that both scientific theories were not incompatible with the existence of a creator – arguing instead that they “require it”.

“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.

He added: “He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that he gave to each one so they would reach their fulfilment.
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This former-Catholic-turned-agnostic really likes this pope.

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Gee, I wonder why? Maybe it's because of all of the little lies he's whispering into your ears, you know, telling you all of the things YOU and others want to hear.

Remember, the Pope is just as human as you and I, and no man can tell you you're not sinning and you're going to Heaven even though you're a sinner and have not accepted Gods gift.

It's amazing how prophesy is being fulfilled right before our very eyes, and yet still many fail to see it. The sinners will stay sinners and the saved will stay saved.

Remember what Jesus said, "no man may cometh unto the Father, but by me". He didn't say the Pope, He said Me, meaning Jesus Christ.

Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:25:27 AM EDT
[#18]
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I agree with you. Who is to say God's seven days were not billions of years to us?
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I've never thought religion and science were mutually exclusive.  

Big Bang, to me, is "let there be light, and there was."  It, actually, makes more sense to me than a standalone "Nobody+ Nothing = Everything" stance.

Evolution may have been God "growing" man.  Although evolution is missing many links...

And everyone spouting time inconsistencies seems laughable to me.



I agree with you. Who is to say God's seven days were not billions of years to us?


Even that places God within time.  Viewing God's work in terms of any duration or any sequence of episodic steps is problematic, theologically speaking.

God has decided once and for all how the order of the universe He created is to be carried out, and does not arrange anything by a new act of will.

St Augustine, On Free Choice of the Will, Book 3, Section III

Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:27:28 AM EDT
[#19]
No "whore of Babylon" post yet?

I am so disappoint.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:27:49 AM EDT
[#20]
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Gee, I wonder why? Maybe it's because of all of the little lies he's whispering into your ears, you know, telling you all of the things YOU and others want to hear.

Remember, the Pope is just as human as you and I, and no man can tell you you're not sinning and you're going to Heaven even though you're a sinner and have not accepted Gods gift.

It's amazing how prophesy is being fulfilled right before our very eyes, and yet still many fail to see it.  The sinners will stay sinners and the saved will stay saved.

Remember what Jesus said, "no man may cometh unto the Father, but by me". He didn't say the Pope, He said Me, meaning Jesus Christ.

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'Whore of Babylon' card played!  
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:27:52 AM EDT
[#21]
This thread is great.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:28:29 AM EDT
[#22]
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No "whore of Babylon" post yet?

I am so disappoint.
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Too late.  
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:34:46 AM EDT
[#23]
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You don't find it fascinating how different people can look at the same text yet not agree on the truth it contains? Is it ignorance or arrogance?

And while your here, which exact christian denomination do you believe is the way, the truth, and the light?
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People can't agree on the meaning of the twenty or so words in the in Second Amendment, what makes you think they could agree on a text such as the bible?
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:42:45 AM EDT
[#24]
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The Pope himself has said his goal is to bring the protestants back into the fold. Ecumenicalism has been going on for a long time. Imho, the blending will be the protestants doing most of the compromising with the RC Church being the dominant force in the world wide theocracy that SAE was discussing. Just my personal belief, time will tell.  
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We've prayed for Christian unity at every mass for as long as I can remember.

The interesting thing about your blending/compromising comment is that, well, that's exactly what happened. Only one Protestant group has been brought back in en masse, and that's the Anglicans. This, of course, excludes people and priests that converted on their own (like Father Dwight Longenecker, a great blogger, Bob Jones University grad and former Anglican priest who's also married).

It was Pope Benedict that let 'em in too. And, really, the RCC didn't have much to do with actually bringing them back. It was the Anglicans who got so fed up with what their own church was doing that they kept pestering the Vatican about it over and over again. Finally, three Personal Ordinariate's got set up (Australia, UK, North America).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_ordinariate
Some of their mass structure, prayers, etc. were modified to be in line with the teachings of the RCC and then they carried on mostly as before.

On a personal level, sometimes the ecumenicalism annoys me. My pastor is big into it and sometimes he gets so open minded his friggin' brain fails out and I swear he forgets he's a Catholic, with Catholic beliefs, and a responsibility to defend them.

Now, this is more my style of ecumenical stuff: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2014/10/shock-a-catholic-bishop-who-speaks-like-gulp-a-catholic-bishop/ The last quoted paragraph is goooolllddd.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:49:31 AM EDT
[#25]
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I don't understand how one can logically say God couldn't wave "a magic wand" to create the universe, and then still acknowledge the reality of miracles. It doesn't make sense.

Also, if there really is a God, you know, an "all-powerful" and "all knowing" type of God, I can't see how the Pope's statement is an accurate description of Him. Either God is Omnipotent (able to do everything and anything) or He isn't.
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macro vs micro

the universe was created and given a set of laws to obey.  (I believe this to be a magic wand type of event, but your mileage may very) things were set in motion to follow these laws and to have certain general outcomes. (Macro view)

God is not prevented from doing things, but chooses not to, to preserve the macro view of the universe and the stuff set in motion

However, God can do miracles or make adjustments at a small scale (micro view)

miracles are possible and not inconsistent with the view expressed by the Pope. I just think his phrasing is not as good as it could be.

Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:55:43 AM EDT
[#26]

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You man, like a literal reading of Genesis?
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...  Our small brains always try to fit God into some box we understand.







You man, like a literal reading of Genesis?
If you are asking if I believe in the literal creation that is in Genesis than my answer is yes. I believe it took six days of what we call days. Morning and evening sounds like the same kind of day we currently use on our calendars. Man was created about six thousand years ago. What the earth was like and how long it was there before God did His thing I don't know.

 
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:57:03 AM EDT
[#27]
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If you are asking if I believe in the literal creation that is in Genesis than my answer is yes. I believe it took six days of what we call days. Morning and evening sounds like the same kind of day we currently use on our calendars. Man was created about six thousand years ago. What the earth was like and how long it was there before God did His thing I don't know.  
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...  Our small brains always try to fit God into some box we understand.



You man, like a literal reading of Genesis?
If you are asking if I believe in the literal creation that is in Genesis than my answer is yes. I believe it took six days of what we call days. Morning and evening sounds like the same kind of day we currently use on our calendars. Man was created about six thousand years ago. What the earth was like and how long it was there before God did His thing I don't know.  



That sure sounds like a very easy to understand box, indeed.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:59:06 AM EDT
[#28]
It's the box God inspired Moses to write about imho.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:04:28 AM EDT
[#29]
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If you are asking if I believe in the literal creation that is in Genesis than my answer is yes. I believe it took six days of what we call days. Morning and evening sounds like the same kind of day we currently use on our calendars. Man was created about six thousand years ago. What the earth was like and how long it was there before God did His thing I don't know.  
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...  Our small brains always try to fit God into some box we understand.



You man, like a literal reading of Genesis?
If you are asking if I believe in the literal creation that is in Genesis than my answer is yes. I believe it took six days of what we call days. Morning and evening sounds like the same kind of day we currently use on our calendars. Man was created about six thousand years ago. What the earth was like and how long it was there before God did His thing I don't know.  

Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:07:12 AM EDT
[#30]
I've always believed that God created the world, and everything, using science as a means.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:08:45 AM EDT
[#31]
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This thread is great.
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I can't believe I'm saying this as the token non-believer around here, but I'm actually beginning to feel bad for my Catholic friends.

Jesus Christ (no pun intended), there are some foaming at the mouth loonies who seriously hate the Catholic church. I mean, damn.

If there's one interesting thing that's come of it from my perspective as an observer here on the sidelines, it's that the people who are calmly explaining Catholicism come off as well read. And a lot of the others...um...don't.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:08:56 AM EDT
[#32]
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I've always believed that God created the world, and everything, using science as a means.
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I would say science reflects our understanding of the casuality God embedded in creation from the very beginning.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:09:40 AM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:10:01 AM EDT
[#34]


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Here are his exact words:
I don't understand how one can logically say God couldn't wave "a magic wand" to create the universe, and then still acknowledge the reality of miracles. It doesn't make sense.





Also, if there really is a God, you know, an "all-powerful" and "all knowing" type of God, I can't see how the Pope's statement is an accurate description of Him. Either God is Omnipotent (able to do everything and anything) or He isn't.
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Explain to me how the Pope (or anyone, really) can logically say God can't and/or won't do things that aren't in accordance with the natural rules and laws He set in place...and then still claim that turning water into wine, bringing people who've been dead for days back to life, instantly healing the blind and the lame, and a virgin giving birth 1,900 years before test-tube babies...are to be celebrated as miracles of God?





Is the Pope somehow insinuating that God changed His mind after creation and decided to break all those rules and start doing miracles?



I think you are going out of your way to read things into that statement that weren't there.



Here are his exact words:




"When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.





I don't understand how one can logically say God couldn't wave "a magic wand" to create the universe, and then still acknowledge the reality of miracles. It doesn't make sense.





Also, if there really is a God, you know, an "all-powerful" and "all knowing" type of God, I can't see how the Pope's statement is an accurate description of Him. Either God is Omnipotent (able to do everything and anything) or He isn't.



Your question is really only legitimate if we treat God as purely theoretical and not real. If we are speaking of a potential omnipotence, then yes, a magic wand is within the divine power.





But, in the context of a God that is real, he didn't use a magic wand. A magician doesn't invent a rabbit, or even create the particular rabbit in the trick. It takes existent material and does something with it. In the case of God and creation, he created from nothing. Which is all Francis is speaking on here, the notion of creation ex nilhilo as opposed to an Aristotelian primum movens (First Cause) which argued that God only arranged pre-existent material.





In short, magicians do tricks with what is real, God creates reality.





 
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:11:59 AM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:23:10 AM EDT
[#36]
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  Growing up in an area that is overwhelmingly Italian (though I have not a drop of Italian blood), with the majority of the remainder being Polish and Irish, I had no idea that there was such widespread anti-Catholicism in this country until I came to this site.
Hell, it wasn't until I was in college that I realized that Catholicism is a minority religion in America!  There were 600+ kids in my high school class, and I can think of maybe 5 who weren't Catholic.
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I grew up protestant and never knew it either until I came here.

I don't get it.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:24:20 AM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:25:45 AM EDT
[#38]
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I grew up protestant and never knew it either until I came here.

I don't get it.
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  Growing up in an area that is overwhelmingly Italian (though I have not a drop of Italian blood), with the majority of the remainder being Polish and Irish, I had no idea that there was such widespread anti-Catholicism in this country until I came to this site.
Hell, it wasn't until I was in college that I realized that Catholicism is a minority religion in America!  There were 600+ kids in my high school class, and I can think of maybe 5 who weren't Catholic.

I grew up protestant and never knew it either until I came here.

I don't get it.

I didn't know Chick Tracts were a thing until I came here, either. And I attended some pretty "fundamentalist" churches, growing up. Or at least I thought I did, because wow
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:25:48 AM EDT
[#39]
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Growing up in an area that is overwhelmingly Italian (though I have not a drop of Italian blood), with the majority of the remainder being Polish and Irish, I had no idea that there was such widespread anti-Catholicism in this country until I came to this site.
Hell, it wasn't until I was in college that I realized that Catholicism is a minority religion in America!  There were 600+ kids in my high school class, and I can think of maybe 5 who weren't Catholic.
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Similar experiences here.  Grew up in NW PA in what was then a majority Roman Catholic town.  During Lent, the newspapers had "Lenten Friday Fish Special" ads from both grocery stores and restraunts.  12 years of Catholic school.  College in Maryland at USNA, which is more Catholic than Notre Dame ever was.

It wasn't until I hit flight school in NW Fla that I saw my first Chick tract, had evangelical fundamentalists yell and wave their bibles at me when I walked into McGuires for dinner or a beer or three, and had people tell me that I was going to hell because I was Catholic.  Not that I didn't have exposure to Protestants - mom was Presbyterian and far more bible-literate and a better Christian than I - but those folks didn't have the same zeal to SAVE me from my idol-worshipping, WoB faith.

Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:27:59 AM EDT
[#40]

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I grew up protestant and never knew it either until I came here.



I don't get it.
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Quoted:

  Growing up in an area that is overwhelmingly Italian (though I have not a drop of Italian blood), with the majority of the remainder being Polish and Irish, I had no idea that there was such widespread anti-Catholicism in this country until I came to this site.

Hell, it wasn't until I was in college that I realized that Catholicism is a minority religion in America!  There were 600+ kids in my high school class, and I can think of maybe 5 who weren't Catholic.



I grew up protestant and never knew it either until I came here.



I don't get it.


As a graduate of one of the most theologically conservative protestant seminaries in the US, even I struggle to understand the disdain some have for the Roman Catholic church. While I can certainly articulate reasons I am not Roman Catholic, I am also perfectly capable of sitting down with Roman Catholics for a meal without it breaking into war.



I suspect most of it comes from two places. First, a literal reading of the Bible and Catholicism cannot mesh. Their view is much to nuanced for protestant fundamentalists. Second, in an effort to uphold the post-reformation party line, everything the Pope does must be wrong, no matter what.
 
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:29:30 AM EDT
[#41]

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I sincerely appreciate your intellectual honesty there.
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...  Our small brains always try to fit God into some box we understand.







You man, like a literal reading of Genesis?
If you are asking if I believe in the literal creation that is in Genesis than my answer is yes. I believe it took six days of what we call days. Morning and evening sounds like the same kind of day we currently use on our calendars. Man was created about six thousand years ago. What the earth was like and how long it was there before God did His thing I don't know.  


 
I sincerely appreciate your intellectual honesty there.




There's nothing quite so frustrating as biblical literalists explaining how "day" doesn't mean "day."
I wish I was an intellectual because I might be able to discuss things better. I just speak from the heart with no shame in what I believe even if my beliefs sound crazy to most. ymmv

 
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:31:20 AM EDT
[#42]
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I didn't know Chick Tracts were a thing until I came here, either. And I attended some pretty "fundamentalist" churches, growing up. Or at least I thought I did, because wow
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  Growing up in an area that is overwhelmingly Italian (though I have not a drop of Italian blood), with the majority of the remainder being Polish and Irish, I had no idea that there was such widespread anti-Catholicism in this country until I came to this site.
Hell, it wasn't until I was in college that I realized that Catholicism is a minority religion in America!  There were 600+ kids in my high school class, and I can think of maybe 5 who weren't Catholic.

I grew up protestant and never knew it either until I came here.

I don't get it.

I didn't know Chick Tracts were a thing until I came here, either. And I attended some pretty "fundamentalist" churches, growing up. Or at least I thought I did, because wow


My mother's family is from SE Ohio and were mainly Presbyterian except for her older brother who was a born-again Baptist.  Grandfather was an elder in his church.  My dad never caught flack from them when he was dating my mother except for the born-again older brother who was big on the anti-papist, Mary worshipping, fundamentalist bandwagon.  To my uncle the Bible was all to be taken literally, except apparently the part about not letting man separate what God has joined, since he had a brief first marriage and subsequent divorce before moving on to wife #2.  Even my uncle mellowed in his middle age though, because I don't remember him spewing any of the anti-Catholic blather that was part of his spiel in earlier days.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:31:56 AM EDT
[#43]
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Aesthetically, I do prefer the High Mass and Missa Cantata.  I would love to see the Tenebrae Mass at the Vatican.  The closing piece of music is the most beautiful piece of religious/church music I've ever heard (Allegri's Miserere Mei Deus) and the Psalm sung is a good one.

I do agree about some churches not being very great regarding how they celebrate Mass.  My home parish does it in such a way where it greatly resemble Protestant services I've attended and the last time I attended the priest was blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.  Things like the Creed are omitted and sometimes replaced with made up liberal garbage "alternatives."  I would never recommend it to someone who wants to see what a Catholic Mass is like.  The parish where I go (despite it being in another diocese), on the other hand, is a great example (except that they need a better music programme).  Even in the Ordinary Form they are very traditional and they do not use the people's altar.

 




It's no joke.

My local parish is, shall we say...... "Unique". As such, my wife drive a much further distance to go to a more traditional Church.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:33:55 AM EDT
[#44]
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Surprisingly it takes more than just believing in Christ to be Christian. We are our own worst enemy.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:35:22 AM EDT
[#45]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:36:39 AM EDT
[#46]
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'Whore of Babylon' card played!  
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Gee, I wonder why? Maybe it's because of all of the little lies he's whispering into your ears, you know, telling you all of the things YOU and others want to hear.

Remember, the Pope is just as human as you and I, and no man can tell you you're not sinning and you're going to Heaven even though you're a sinner and have not accepted Gods gift.

It's amazing how prophesy is being fulfilled right before our very eyes, and yet still many fail to see it.  The sinners will stay sinners and the saved will stay saved.

Remember what Jesus said, "no man may cometh unto the Father, but by me". He didn't say the Pope, He said Me, meaning Jesus Christ.



'Whore of Babylon' card played!  



Hooray! The Chick shit is here! WOO-HOO!

Do we get to be called idolatrous, Pope-worshiping, polytheistic, Maryist, Jesus-sacrificing, spawns of the devil now?
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:36:55 AM EDT
[#47]
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  Growing up in an area that is overwhelmingly Italian (though I have not a drop of Italian blood), with the majority of the remainder being Polish and Irish, I had no idea that there was such widespread anti-Catholicism in this country until I came to this site.
Hell, it wasn't until I was in college that I realized that Catholicism is a minority religion in America!  There were 600+ kids in my high school class, and I can think of maybe 5 who weren't Catholic.
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This thread is great.

I can't believe I'm saying this as the token non-believer around here, but I'm actually beginning to feel bad for my Catholic friends.

Jesus Christ (no pun intended), there are some foaming at the mouth loonies who seriously hate the Catholic church. I mean, damn.

If there's one interesting thing that's come of it from my perspective as an observer here on the sidelines, it's that the people who are calmly explaining Catholicism come off as well read. And a lot of the others...um...don't.

  Growing up in an area that is overwhelmingly Italian (though I have not a drop of Italian blood), with the majority of the remainder being Polish and Irish, I had no idea that there was such widespread anti-Catholicism in this country until I came to this site.
Hell, it wasn't until I was in college that I realized that Catholicism is a minority religion in America!  There were 600+ kids in my high school class, and I can think of maybe 5 who weren't Catholic.


My wife had someone ask her the other day, "Does it bother you that I know you're Catholic?" What else is there to say?

ETA: See H46Driver's post above about flight school in the FL Panhandle.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:38:30 AM EDT
[#48]
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My wife had someone ask her the other day, "Does it bother you that I know you're Catholic?" What else is there to say?
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This thread is great.

I can't believe I'm saying this as the token non-believer around here, but I'm actually beginning to feel bad for my Catholic friends.

Jesus Christ (no pun intended), there are some foaming at the mouth loonies who seriously hate the Catholic church. I mean, damn.

If there's one interesting thing that's come of it from my perspective as an observer here on the sidelines, it's that the people who are calmly explaining Catholicism come off as well read. And a lot of the others...um...don't.

  Growing up in an area that is overwhelmingly Italian (though I have not a drop of Italian blood), with the majority of the remainder being Polish and Irish, I had no idea that there was such widespread anti-Catholicism in this country until I came to this site.
Hell, it wasn't until I was in college that I realized that Catholicism is a minority religion in America!  There were 600+ kids in my high school class, and I can think of maybe 5 who weren't Catholic.


My wife had someone ask her the other day, "Does it bother you that I know you're Catholic?" What else is there to say?


Are you panhandle?
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:39:27 AM EDT
[#49]
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I would say science reflects our understanding of the casuality God embedded in creation from the very beginning.
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I've always believed that God created the world, and everything, using science as a means.


I would say science reflects our understanding of the casuality God embedded in creation from the very beginning.



Bingo.

One must remember that if God did, in fact, create the universe, then the laws that govern the universe (which we describe as science) would necessarily have also been created by Him.

I happen to believe that all of creation retains the "echo" of its common Creator, but that's neither here nor there...
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:41:12 AM EDT
[#50]
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Are you panhandle?
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My wife had someone ask her the other day, "Does it bother you that I know you're Catholic?" What else is there to say?


Are you panhandle?


Redneck Riviera. <----not my smile but common around here
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