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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:02:31 PM EDT
[#1]
You'd think the quadruple stack magazine would find its way into military rifles... |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:03:43 PM EDT
[#2]
<------------------- And let's not forget Jack Burton |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:04:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Gunbroker has one for only 2800+$ 
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:04:32 PM EDT
[#4]
The Russians have been playing with the idea in AK-74's. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:04:55 PM EDT
[#5]
I've seen them go for 1500 NIB. I've been sorely tempted, too. The SP89 can't be touched for under 3K. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:07:25 PM EDT
[#6]
Is it true that non-curio forward magazine pistols are no longer allowed to be imported?
I always wanted one of those European target pistols with a forward magazine. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:08:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Nice to have in a collection and definately works as claimed. However, almost completely useless as an effective pistol. I can tell that it would be OUTSTANDING as a SMG though. A mini PPD 40... I suspect they would have given MP5Ks a run for their money in side by side tests. Experience with the Sites however has given me one piece of insight that would give the edge to the MP5K. The difficulty in loading magazines would present a problem in the field. By far it's the most diffucult to load magazine I've ever seen. This isn't as large of a problem in a Law Enforcement, Security, or Anti Terrorist role where mags could be loaded in 'the office'. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:08:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Jeez, I had just gotten that Oly Arms abortion out of my mind, and then this shows up.
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:09:48 PM EDT
[#9]
I had a Tec-9D back in the day, it didn't jam on me. I sold it for $500. It had a 50 round magazine and a 32 rounder.
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:10:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Many of them were banned by name in the Bush import ban of 1989 (which I wish GWB would get rid of...but I ain't holding my breath) and the rest were usually determined to have too many "points" to be imported by the ATF.
.22s may make it under the "sporting purpose" limit for import. I believe you can get your hands on them, but you'll likely have to sell a testicle to afford one. None of them are cheap. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:12:14 PM EDT
[#11]
When you have to get under 50oz (or was it 48?), those three ounces make a difference. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:14:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Yes - it may be made by Haemmerli these days (I think it's the model 280 or something) My dad had one, and it was a very accurate pistol, and an awesome design. You basically changed it from .22 to .32 with the flip of one lever, and put a different barrel/upper on it. Very clever, and a joy to shoot. I think my brother has it these days, as he has managed to steal all of my dad's guns. 
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:18:03 PM EDT
[#13]
It is a pistol with a stock. It is also a machine gun, so the usual restrictions on putting a stock on a pistol don't apply. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:18:14 PM EDT
[#14]
If it was do-able, it would have been done. As it is, the Sites mag is a masterpiece of design and craftsmanship. The mag is actually a 4 into 2 into 1. The feed lips are no different than that of most pistols produced today. It solves the minor problem of a long mag with extreme creativity and engineering/fabrication talent. Not what you'd call a solder-proof setup. They did it successfully, but it's kind of an empty success... Edited to add: After pushing 9mm into my mags, I can't imagine the spring tension needed to quickly move that many rifle cartridges. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:20:01 PM EDT
[#15]
As a machine gun, I didn't think that adding a stock makes a pistol into a rifle. Yes, that would be an issue for a regular semi-auto pistol, but those rules don't apply to machine guns, at least according to my understanding. Maybe I am wrong about that... |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:20:54 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:22:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Ah - got it. Since the thread title was "Pistols with magazines in front of the trigger" I (and presumably jmarkma) thought all of the pictures were of things that the OP believed to to be pistols. It all makes sense now 
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:29:21 PM EDT
[#18]
I like this one myself.
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:30:39 PM EDT
[#19]
That looks like the Walther/Haemmerli 280. Is it an updated version of it, or someone else? |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:37:13 PM EDT
[#20]
What movie is this? |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:46:51 PM EDT
[#21]
You may also be interested to know that the Broomhandle Mauser, with the straight magazine in front of the trigger, could be easily loaded with stripper clips. This was considered a "plus" in those days.
Winston Churchill carried and used one in the Boar Wars and spoke highly of it. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:47:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Close, it's a Hammerli SP20 RRS. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:56:10 PM EDT
[#23]
The Oly is very FUBARD.
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:57:23 PM EDT
[#24]
I know most everybody has moved on past it, but I am still trying to understand it
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Posted: 12/19/2007 1:57:51 PM EDT
[#25]
 Would be cool though, and I can see how it could be classified other ways...
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:02:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Yes, and they were originally chambered in 7.63x35 (.30 cal). Later, most were coverted to 9mm, hence the big red "9" on the stock. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:03:34 PM EDT
[#27]
That is correct. The Chinese even made some in .45 ACP. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:08:20 PM EDT
[#28]
I remember some of those for sale in SGN a few years back. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:09:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Mauser c96 loaded from stripper clips. The Mauser 712 (full-auto) and rarer 711 (semi-auto) had detachable magazines rather than integral ones. Original c96 is most commonly seen with 10-rnd capacity, but some with 5, 15, and 20 round mags were produced. The c96 was designed to operate as either a pistol or a carbine (using the wooden holster as a stock) too. We didn't start putting the magazine into pistol grips until we got to pistols like the Steyr Model 1911 and similar guns, which were still fed by stripper clips (the 15-rnd versions look ridiculous since the single-stack magazine sticks out out of the grip by six inches. ). Other pistols with magazines outside the grip were essentially designed as submachine guns and not pistols. Skorpion was an SMG. Tec-9 was intended as an SMG, but nobody in their right mind bought one and so the market went almost exclusively to semi-auto for gangbangers. Spectre M4 was an SMG (and a darn cool one too, with RELIABLE quad-stack 30 and 50-rnd mags in 9mm and 30-rnd mags for .40 S&W and .45ACP. And a cool active air-cooling design, top-folding stock, and the distinction of being the only double-action-only SMG in existence.). AR and AK pistols are just short-barrel rifles with no stocks, essentially. With the exception of the Tec-9, every single 'pistol' I can think of with the magazine located outside of the pistol grip was intended to operate as a carbine and not just exclusively as a pistol, and more often than not was full-auto originally. So there's your answer. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:25:48 PM EDT
[#30]
Notice that it's an SBR and not a pistol. They attached the stock from a Spectre SMG to it. Most of the Spectre M4 pistols I've seen on gunbroker go for around $700, though the rarer .40 and .45 versions go for a little more. I'd love to have one. It amazes me that the Spectre M4 never caught on. It's the only gun with quad-stack magazines that WORKED, its bolt design that pumped air through the barrel jacket as it fired allowed it to keep up a rate of fire that would overheat most SMG's, it was compact, it had novel features (DAO instead of SA and safety like every other SMG), it was accurate (for an SMG anyway), and they weren't all that expensive. But for some reason, nobody ever had an interest in them. If I could get the patent and license, I'd start producing them again and sell on the law enforcement market. 9mm with 30 and 50-rnd mags, .40 S&W and .45ACP with 30-rnd mags, heck, I could even do a 10mm version. Produce carbines and pistols for the civilian market and I'd out-compete the demand for HK94/MP5 pistols and carbines since those are almost exclusively crap unless HK produced them. Might even be able to get a military contract with some South American or European country. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:29:52 PM EDT
[#31]
went back and looked and yes it is different from the pistol and has a buttload of those strange mags with it interesting |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:30:09 PM EDT
[#32]
I think that one is just the pistol.The stock usually sits on top of the weapon unless its unfolded.
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:31:44 PM EDT
[#33]
Not quite. The Browning designed handguns all had magazines in the grip of the weapon, like this little gem made in 1903:  Even the Borchardt, the earliest semi-auto handgun, had a removable magazine. You are correct, however, in saying that fixed magazine pistols were common in the late 19th and early 20th century...but I don't think any new ones were designed after 1920 except for the previously mentioned .45 caliber C96 by the Chinese. I could be wrong, though.... |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:48:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Didn't old Winston also use this pistol when he was fighting against South Africans of primarily Dutch descent, and not only against feral pigs? 
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:50:11 PM EDT
[#35]
I didn't say NO pistols were made with mags in the grip (detachable or otherwise) until a certain time period, I said we didn't get around to it until GUNS OF A CERTAIN TYPE (and then I gave an example) were made. Mauser c96's were chambered in 7.63x25 Mauser (not 7.63x35 as one poster accidentally wrote ), 9x25 Mauser (obsolete), 9x19mm, and one or two other obsolete European calibers. 9x25 Mauser and other calibers were extremely rare and had to be special ordered, whereas 7.63 was the default caliber and 9mm was ordered by the German army in WWI (the only time the German army ordered c96's, and only because they couldn't get enough pistols like the Luger P-08; many of these 'red nines' were brought out of storage and issued in WWII to certain units when production of Walther P-38's couldn't keep up.) The Chinese did indeed make some in .45ACP to make them ammo compatible with the Thompson SMG's we gave them, but mostly they made 7.63 Mauser 712 rip-offs and fired them sideways gangsta-style.The Chinese also made quite a number of single-shot pistols designed to cosmetically resemble Mauser c96's since it became a status symbol to own one. Am I correct in believing that the 712 was chambered only in 7.63 Mauser and not 9x19mm? |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:51:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Boer(ing) post dude |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:51:19 PM EDT
[#37]
In the Wonderful Land of New York you cannot have a pistol that has two of the following charactaristics c) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip; (ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer; (iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned; (iv) a manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; (v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun or firearm |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 2:53:44 PM EDT
[#38]
thank you I understand now If ever you make it south, stop in Ms and I will buy you a beer or 7
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Posted: 12/19/2007 3:00:45 PM EDT
[#39]
I see a Spectre M4 pistol going for $795, another for $799, another for $650, a rare .40 S&W for $795, and an SBR with top-folding stock, forward vertical grip, three 30-rnd mags, 2 50-rnd mags, and a 30-rnd and 50-rnd mag with a block to limit them to 10-rnds thanks to the AWB, but are easily converted back to original capacity, loading tool, two barrels, some spare parts, and original brochures and manual from the 1980's, all going for $2,800. The first photo clearly shows the unfolded stock and the second photo clearly shows the folded stock on top of the gun. It's not a pistol.
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Posted: 12/19/2007 3:06:32 PM EDT
[#40]
It's very nice!! 
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Posted: 12/19/2007 3:09:04 PM EDT
[#41]
That does make a sound business case, at least at first glance. How much capital would it take to get sucha an operation started (licenses, macinery, materials, etc)? I would think Spectres in compatible calibers to whatever the police are carrying in their pistols would be very salable. Also, a 10mm Spectre would certainly be a fine weapon. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 3:12:58 PM EDT
[#42]
Not so true, As I understand it. Alaska shares the same HTF with them. So I know a little bit about this. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 3:15:45 PM EDT
[#43]
Ill take a Verpine Shattergun myself 
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Posted: 12/19/2007 3:16:31 PM EDT
[#44]
IIRC that had to be done to meet some states weight requirement to be classified as a pistol, California maybe |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 3:23:37 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 12/19/2007 3:29:56 PM EDT
[#46]
Didn't the Swedes design and manufacture some 50-rd quad stack "coffin" mags for their licensed copy of the Suomi SMG?    
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Posted: 12/19/2007 3:50:35 PM EDT
[#47]
I'm taking some issue with this after thinking about it. 1) Powerful automatic pistols have never really been a European thing, what with the prevalence of the .32 and .380, but I can see 9mm as being called that. But really, Europe was all about the itty-bitty rounds. Let us not forget that the 9mm was adopted in the Luger in 1902, a scant three years before the .45. 2) Most of the Belgian guns (1900, 1903, etc...) were JMB designs, frequently made concurrently with Colt's of the same design. Example: Colt 1903 and Browning 1903. 3) The Model 1900 Colt (not to be confused with the Browning Model 1900) was actually decent ballistically in .38ACP (not to be confused with .380 ACP). And, of course, it went on to become one of the finest rounds ever, the .38 Super. 4) The first Colt production .45 automatic was the Model 1905, released in that year. 5) Although the 1932 Mauser Model 712 'Schnellfeuer' is considered to be the first machine-pistol, and certainly was the first widely produced, John Dillinger had at least one 1911 machine-pistol, and he died in 1934.
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Posted: 12/19/2007 3:56:56 PM EDT
[#48]
I love '03 Colts. With a passion. My wife took her CCW class with one, and outshot almost everyone. That being said, that one was most definitely NOT made in 1903. The grips are a type II hard rubber grip, found on the early type III pistols. So, we're looking at somewhere between 1911-1914. Serial number range was 115000-160000 iirc. Yours? Edit: SInce I'm being a smartass, I'd also like to point out the triangular-cut serrations, found from mid-1905 on, and the thumb safety retaining screw, found from 1904 on. |
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Posted: 12/19/2007 4:00:35 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 12/19/2007 4:01:13 PM EDT
[#50]
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