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How would you rate this quote? http://i.imgur.com/ylwx8G7.png http://i.imgur.com/Bs3s3F5.png View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I had my entire system replaced last week. I went with a Trane 16 seer 3.5 ton outside unit and a variable speed two stage with Dehumidification Trane 80% 90k BTU furnace and all new connections.....the whole shebang. It cost me $6200. Just ask what the CASH price is if you have it. Based on the five quotes I've gotten in the past month, this sounds like an impossibly good deal. And I have been getting only cash price quotes. Where was this? I'm assuming not Ukraine? No, that's not a good deal at all for a package with an 80% efficiency unit and only a 90k at that. How would you rate this quote? http://i.imgur.com/ylwx8G7.png http://i.imgur.com/Bs3s3F5.png You're going to pay more for trane, quite a bit more but it's a great system. I'd probably skip the permit and the thermostat to save on costs but that is just me. I'd rather prefer a NEST. Buy your trane from Lowes, use a lowes card and it will knock of another 5%. Lowes works with trane. They sometimes work with the gas/elec companies for additional discounts and rebates. IIRC, costco does the same thing but with lennox, might be a better discount. I have a similar setup as yours (i think the same condenser model)I had a 4.5 ton coil and a two stage handler with a larger capacity furnace to match. I didn't care for the two stage, if I do it again I'll do single stage. You can also look at a Goodman (it's considered the bottom bang for the buck), but the savings is huge. You'll save probably close to 3k total. |
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We had an 8yo Lennox system go out. Don't remember the numbers, but the compressor and accompanying parts to fix was $$$. New system $$$$$$. Ended up doing a bunch of research and went with an 16seer (3ton) Goodman system with all the new (at the time) bells and whistles. Paid cash and was less than 5k installed.
People will sometimes talk bad about Goodman but the warranty is super, system is very quiet, and so far has been completely solid six years (and three renters) later. |
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You will not save enough money going from 16 to 17 SEER to pay for the unit over the average lifespan of the unit unless your electric rates are insanely expensive. I have a 13 SEER heat pump and my average electric bill (all electric) is $160/mo heating and cooling 2080 sq. ft. Going up to a 17 SEER would never pay off. |
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How would you rate this quote? http://i.imgur.com/ylwx8G7.png http://i.imgur.com/Bs3s3F5.png View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I had my entire system replaced last week. I went with a Trane 16 seer 3.5 ton outside unit and a variable speed two stage with Dehumidification Trane 80% 90k BTU furnace and all new connections.....the whole shebang. It cost me $6200. Just ask what the CASH price is if you have it. Based on the five quotes I've gotten in the past month, this sounds like an impossibly good deal. And I have been getting only cash price quotes. Where was this? I'm assuming not Ukraine? No, that's not a good deal at all for a package with an 80% efficiency unit and only a 90k at that. How would you rate this quote? http://i.imgur.com/ylwx8G7.png http://i.imgur.com/Bs3s3F5.png Average. How's their quaility and craftsmanship? |
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Sounds expensive to me but I'm not familiar with dual AC systems.. Only 10 years life span for a AC unit? Renting is looking better all the time. View Quote They last longer if cared for. Most aren't. Filters changed only when they look like a yetis ass ...condensation lines cleared only when it floods the house....coils cleaned only after the unit ices up constantly ....which in turns has the worlds snowflakes turn it from 73 to 50f expecting it yo get colder because the lil led screen says "50"...which then causes all sorts of fun...burnt caps...blown compressors....etc etc etc.... That's why 10 years is avg... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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You will not save enough money going from 16 to 17 SEER to pay for the unit over the average lifespan of the unit unless your electric rates are insanely expensive. I have a 13 SEER heat pump and my average electric bill (all electric) is $160/mo heating and cooling 2080 sq. ft. Going up to a 17 SEER would never pay off. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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all that SEER doesn't come cheap. This. Pay now, or pay every month.z You will not save enough money going from 16 to 17 SEER to pay for the unit over the average lifespan of the unit unless your electric rates are insanely expensive. I have a 13 SEER heat pump and my average electric bill (all electric) is $160/mo heating and cooling 2080 sq. ft. Going up to a 17 SEER would never pay off. Before we replaced the top floor unit, our monthly electrical during the summer was $600-700. |
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This. Just had a 3.5 ton unit with 14 seer 92%eff unit installed for $4867 last week. Competitive quotes are your friend. There was a wild difference in price from one installer to the next. The bigger guys were all quite a bit more as well, I guess they expected us to pay their advertising budget as well. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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all that SEER doesn't come cheap. This. Just had a 3.5 ton unit with 14 seer 92%eff unit installed for $4867 last week. Competitive quotes are your friend. There was a wild difference in price from one installer to the next. The bigger guys were all quite a bit more as well, I guess they expected us to pay their advertising budget as well. I was always told to find a smaller shop with less overhead that is HVAC only. 'Plumbing and Heating' companies make their money in plumbing, so they will be ass fuckers when it comes to AC install. Granted it has been a while since I did a new system, but I found THAT guy and he was 1/3 of the P&H dealers and started installation the next day, done in one day, and doubled the manufacturer's warranty. My current unit is either a 10 or 12 SEER and is about 12 years old. I am sure it is undersized in tonnage, but I am thinking about replacing it during the cooler fall weather when their is less demand and maybe more room to negotiate. My unit was sized when the house had single pane windows. It would not get down to 78 on the hotter days. Now with double pane low-E glass, it will get down to 78 on a 110 degree day, but it will take a solid run of 2 hours straight to get there. I am thinking it should get cooler, quicker. |
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This. Just had a 3.5 ton unit with 14 seer 92%eff unit installed for $4867 last week. Competitive quotes are your friend. There was a wild difference in price from one installer to the next. The bigger guys were all quite a bit more as well, I guess they expected us to pay their advertising budget as well. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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all that SEER doesn't come cheap. This. Just had a 3.5 ton unit with 14 seer 92%eff unit installed for $4867 last week. Competitive quotes are your friend. There was a wild difference in price from one installer to the next. The bigger guys were all quite a bit more as well, I guess they expected us to pay their advertising budget as well. Lower Alabama here. 4 ton, 14 seer, ducts ripped out and new ducts throughout(they were old pipes I had poorly patched from days gone by), couple of new vents added, most of house new insulation - $8500. Outside unit was undersized and 32 years old, attic furnace was 14. 3 quotes ranged from $8500 to $10,500. ETA: Amana. |
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Neibor just paid $12,000, being i am a first time newer home owner I was like . After asking around it seems this is normal. Thank god mine is only 6 years old.
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I installed dual-zone Trane units a few years back in the house, both the air handlers and A/C outside units, plus thermostats. $12,000 and worth every penny.
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Actually, the numbers are not that easy.
You have: Condenser $600-$4000 depending on SEER and bells and whistles Evap coil $300-$900 again, SEER Refrigeration lineset $100-$300 depending on length Disconnect and whip $50 Pad $25 Nice thermostat $150 Screws, sheetmetal, hangers, wire, misc parts and pieces $200 So we have almost $5500 in just parts and equipment for a high end system (20-24SEER) and $1400 in a crap system (13 SEER builders grade) I am not sure if they are replacing your air handler or furnace but that adds to the cost. This is also for straight AC, not a heat pump. Then you have what kills us, labor. I pay around $40/hr just to cover my labor costs, this includes pay, workers comp, liability insurance plus the three riders I have to carry, licensing, bonds, tools. I don't pay ANY benefits as we are all part time employees. If I had benefits to pay I would need to add another $15-$20/hr. I am assuming you are paying full time employees so let's use $55/hr as a base rate. At $55/hr to cover all overhead in labor I would need to charge $75/hr to turn a profit on just my labor. So we will say $75/hr and that is on the low side around here. 2 employees on a very simple install, open basement, no attic or crawlspace, I would put 8hrs each on an AC swap out (again no furnace or air handler unit) to do the job properly. So 32 labor hours on a two system swap out. $2400 in labor. I know some guys who only put 4hrs on an AC swap but that is a wham bam thank you mam install. A quality install will take 8hrs, feel free to ask any of the ARFCOMMERS I have done installs for, there are a couple of dozen on this board, it takes all damn day with two guys but the quality and craftsmanship shows and I guarantee those installs will last 15-20yrs with no craftsmanship defects. Don't forget I also have almost 3hrs in just getting you a quote, drive to you house, look over the job, gather up costs, run the numbers, put together a quote, and present the quote. If you accept the quote I drive back out and spend another two hours measuring you house for a heat gain heat loss survey, go back to the shop and run the numbers to size your equipment properly, so now we have another 3hrs spent on your install for a total of 6hrs that adds to the overhead. So we are at $7900 for the best equipment or $3800 for crap. We are not even touching the mark up on equipment (I use 10-30% depending on the equipment, 10% for the high end stuff 30% for the low end), and we aren't scratching the surface on shit like cell phone, business phone, paperwork, mailing, truck, mileage, and maintenance, gas, GPS, lawyer, secretary, accountant, office rental, building costs and insurance, warranty costs, website and hosting, quotes you don't get, clients who pay slowly or late, advertising, etc... You see where I am going with this? People say we are scammers, con artist, and rip offs but I don't think they really understand what it takes to run a successful HVAC business. There are a metric shit ton of overhead costs that are associated with this trade. This goes hand in hand with THIS post I wrote a few years back... So you're replacing your HVAC system?
This is my advice after 20yrs in the trade as a HVAC business owner, installer, technician, and now a master journeyman.... Before you have your contractor out to look at your system... When shopping for a contractor to check your system ask one simple question on the phone... "Does your company use flat rate pricing" If they answer "yes" hang up the phone, you have just avoided the first pit fall in getting your system fixed or replaced. Flat rate pricing is a system used by many contractors in place of hourly pricing. They pay companies to compile the average (for your area) time and cost to make any given repair to your HVAC equipment, then take that average and make it into a cost they pass off to you. That cost is usually very high ($200/hr) compared to the hourly rate, and the time allotted to make that repair is very generous... in the contractors favor. An honest contractor will bill your hourly for the exact time spent making your repair, picking up parts, writing paperwork, traveling, etc... Honest contractors don't use the flat rate system. First confirm your system is dead... Of course that tech wants you to buy a new system, he most likely gets a spiff or commission from up selling you, so he tells you the heat exchanger in the furnace is cracked or the compressor in your A/C unit is fried. Don't take his word, don't set up a sales appointment, don't sign any sort of contracts. Politely thank him and pay him his diagnostic fee (usually under $100) and let him leave. Next call up another contractor and have them diagnose the same system with no knowledge of the previous dealings. Compare your notes, if they mach you most likely have a dead system and you are only out another diagnostic fee, if they don't match then you know what the other company was up to and the ball is now in your court to potentially save those thousands of dollars that new, unneeded, system would have cost. If the system has been confirmed toasted you have options... A fried compressor can be replaced, that cracked heat exchanger is also easily replaced but you will need to shop around. It is a 4hr job to do either job at a steady pace if you know what you are doing. So when they tell you it will cost more to replace the compressor than the entire unit they are lying, it will cost a fraction of the cost of a new system and they want to again "up sell" you. Weigh your options... Would you put a new engine in a car with 300k miles? Why put a compressor in an A/C unit that is 15yrs old? Your money may be better spent putting that hard earned cash towards a new system that is more efficient, under warranty, and properly sized for your home. I would not recommend making a large repair on an older system. What is an older system you ask? Glad to answer... In Ohio where we use our heat half the year and our A/C half the year (approximately) I see an average life of around 15yrs, now in places like Arizona where you use A/C for 10mo out of the year you could conceivably get 8yrs out of your A/C and 25yrs out of a furnace, in Alaska just the opposite. It's all based on usage, the environment the equipment works in (sea side houses are bad for A/C, the salt eats them up), and of course maintenance provided to the unit. What to ask from your salesman... OK, so you have come to the conclusion that it's time to bury that coal burner in the basement, it's dead Jim. You will need to shop around... I repeat, YOU WILL NEED TO SHOP AROUND. But here are the basics on what to look for and what you should be asking: 1) You want a heat loss/heat gain survey done on your house (AKA: Manual J). This is a survey done that tell us what size equipment your home requires. It takes into account things like windows, insulation, doors, how many people reside in the home, exposure to sunlight, etc... Without this information the contractor is farting in the wind guessing what sizes you need. Oversized and undersized equipment is one of the largest problems I find in this field of work and it leads to A LOT of issues down the road, especially early failures. So if that salesman tells you that it's not required make that an instant disqualifier. You will find 75% of the salesmen will look at your current equipment and size the new equipment based off that, who says the original equipment was sized properly? What about that 1000sq/ft you added on five years ago? A properly done survey takes about an hour and he will be all over your home measuring walls and windows. That said please understand something... I don't share my sizing numbers with a potential customer for one simple reason, I have had more customers take my numbers and give them to their "cousins friend who is a school maintenance man and dabbles in HVAC on the side" only to have him severely undercut my bid. If I do the legwork for free I consider that information to be proprietary, but just because I don't give them to you doesn't mean I haven't done my job properly. 2) Warranty, warranty, warranty. I don't push one brand of equipment over another although I have my preferences, to me it's all about the warranty, both the labor and the manufactures parts warranty. The longer the warranties are the longer you won't pay out of pocket for repairs. Now they can be tricky. The industry standard manufactures parts warranty these days is 10yrs (longer on compressors and heat exchangers on pricier equipment) with a one year labor warranty which is granted by the contractor. You can purchase longer labor warranties if the contractor offers them and they are a good idea if you can afford them. Read the fine print though, some require you have yearly maintenance done (at an additional cost) or it voids the warranty, while others don't cover certain things like brown outs, acts of god (flooding, lightening, etc...), or refrigerant costs. 3) Upgrades. They will try and sell you on things like variable speed blowers, high efficiency filters, humidifiers, UV lighting systems, wireless communicating thermostats, and a host of other stuff. These things do serve a purpose and they do make your home more comfortable but they come with a cost both up front and on the tail end. The more bells and whistles that you have, the more bells and whistles that will break down the road. Pick and choose wisely, if you have allergies or asthma then a high efficiency filter will fit your needs, if you are a techo geek a communicating thermostat you can control on your iPhone is right up your alley... Just remember, they will break and you will need to pay me to fix them. Pricing... That 300 pound gorilla no one wants to talk about. I don't have a magic number for you, there are just too many variables for me to give you any idea of what it will cost, this is why it's important to shop around and keep things on the same page. You can't compare prices when salesman #1 quoted you a deluxe model furnace with 10yr parts/10yr labor warranty, humidifier, and UV lighting system and salesman #2 quoted you a builders grade furnace, standard warranty, and no extras. Figure out what exactly you want before you start shopping and tell each salesman the same thing. Only then can you compare apples to apples. Without knowing what size equipment you need, where it needs to be located (open basements are easier to work in than hot cramped attics), and what sort of extras you want I cannot even begin to guess what your cost will be. This is why an on site inspection is REQUIRED to give a proper estimate (and to have that heat loss/heat gain survey done). The cheapest doesn't always mean the best... And I cannot stress this enough. I now work for one of the most expensive contractors in my area but do you know what that buys you as the customer? That gets you a technician that has been to all the schooling he can obtain, a tech with all the right tools in his truck to do the job properly, and the time needed for me to do my job without cutting corners, but most of all it usually buys a guy that gives a shit and takes pride in his work, if the tech is making good money he is happy and that carries over in his craftsmanship. That other contractor that was a few grand less, you can bet your lunch money he is slamming in systems as fast as possible, cutting corners to help his bottom line, with overworked and underpaid helpers that couldn't care less about your install/repair because the heat or A/C works at their house and they just want to get done and smoke a joint while playing X-Box. My van holds around $15k in specialty tools, the best of the best and the most cutting edge technology to assist me in doing a better job for you, those tools don't come cheap. HVAC is not a trade you want corners cut, they longevity (and safety) of that system I installed really does depend on how well I just installed it, if I cut corners and use crap tools it will ultimately cost you down the road, this I promise. View Quote |
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Quoted: Actually, the numbers are not that easy. <snipped> View Quote Awesome post, and perfectly illustrates the hidden costs and complexities of a QUALITY install. You can do this stuff really cheap...and you might even get lucky and the install isn't a shit-show, and they guessed right and sized your house correctly which will keep your A/C from performing worth a shit, and the roll-o-the-dice contractor grade crap they installed miraculously lasts 15 years, and nothing goes wrong that requires that crew to come out and unfuck anything, and when you sell the house it's not a code-violation that costs you more money, etc. Or, you can pay for an efficient system installed by someone with a good track record, insurance, a substantial warranty and who stands behind their work and installs a quality product (using quality materials, not just the unit itself). That isn't a quick, easy, or simple thing. 2 guys doing a good, clean, "get everything right" install takes ALL FUCKING DAY. Having been on both sides of that transaction now, I sure see it clearly. Also, working with ZW17 doing these installs, I've been privy to ripping out the horrendous, jacked-up, unsafe, not even close to code nightmares that someone bought before us...likely for a really good deal. Craiglist hacks, high-volume/low-quality outfits, and incompetents all save you some dough...up front. |
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Awesome post, and perfectly illustrates the hidden costs and complexities of a QUALITY install. You can do this stuff really cheap...and you might even get lucky and the install isn't a shit-show, and they guessed right and sized your house correctly which will keep your A/C from performing worth a shit, and the roll-o-the-dice contractor grade crap they installed miraculously lasts 15 years, and nothing goes wrong that requires that crew to come out and unfuck anything, and when you sell the house it's not a code-violation that costs you more money, etc. Or, you can pay for an efficient system installed by someone with a good track record, insurance, a substantial warranty and who stands behind their work and installs a quality product (using quality materials, not just the unit itself). That isn't a quick, easy, or simple thing. 2 guys doing a good, clean, "get everything right" install takes ALL FUCKING DAY. Having been on both sides of that transaction now, I sure see it clearly. Also, working with ZW17 doing these installs, I've been privy to ripping out the horrendous, jacked-up, unsafe, not even close to code nightmares that someone bought before us...likely for a really good deal. Craiglist hacks, high-volume/low-quality outfits, and incompetents all save you some dough...up front. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Actually, the numbers are not that easy. <snipped> Awesome post, and perfectly illustrates the hidden costs and complexities of a QUALITY install. You can do this stuff really cheap...and you might even get lucky and the install isn't a shit-show, and they guessed right and sized your house correctly which will keep your A/C from performing worth a shit, and the roll-o-the-dice contractor grade crap they installed miraculously lasts 15 years, and nothing goes wrong that requires that crew to come out and unfuck anything, and when you sell the house it's not a code-violation that costs you more money, etc. Or, you can pay for an efficient system installed by someone with a good track record, insurance, a substantial warranty and who stands behind their work and installs a quality product (using quality materials, not just the unit itself). That isn't a quick, easy, or simple thing. 2 guys doing a good, clean, "get everything right" install takes ALL FUCKING DAY. Having been on both sides of that transaction now, I sure see it clearly. Also, working with ZW17 doing these installs, I've been privy to ripping out the horrendous, jacked-up, unsafe, not even close to code nightmares that someone bought before us...likely for a really good deal. Craiglist hacks, high-volume/low-quality outfits, and incompetents all save you some dough...up front. You really need to tell the story about your shops recent install nightmare... It was tailor built for this thread. |
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We just had our air conditioner and furnace replaced this weekend. We got a Bryant 16 SEER single speed 4 ton AC that is energy star compliant. We also got a Bryant furnace that is not energy star compliant because who cares? Here in San Diego we don't use our furnace that much. Anyway we paid 7k for both, installed.
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There is a huge markup in HVAC. Think about it they can charge pretty much what they think they can get from you. You don't want to live in a house that's 90 degrees in the summer time do you? Bottom line is there is room to negotiate with most HVAC contractors. You need to make sure they do the proper load calculations and that they just don't estimate it off the square footage of the space. The HVAC units themselves are insanely expensive for what they are. It's a compressor with copper tubing and a fan motor. You can buy a new car for what some of these systems cost. View Quote That's what gets me about residential HVAC. We replaced our A/C a couple of months ago (leaking evap coil, didn't want to drop $800 or so to fix a 20 year old A/C). After doing all the reading and research, I quickly realized that these damned things are not complex devices at all. They are nothing more than copper tubing, two heat exchangers, a compressor, and a fan. That's it. Fortunately we have a family friend who is a general contractor and installed an A/C for us extremely cheap as a side job. About half what it would've cost from the local guys in town. |
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We had an 8yo Lennox system go out. Don't remember the numbers, but the compressor and accompanying parts to fix was $$$. New system $$$$$$. Ended up doing a bunch of research and went with an 16seer (3ton) Goodman system with all the new (at the time) bells and whistles. Paid cash and was less than 5k installed. People will sometimes talk bad about Goodman but the warranty is super, system is very quiet, and so far has been completely solid six years (and three renters) later. View Quote We installed a new Goodman unit about 3 months ago. The guy doing the install clearly knew what he was doing, and my research suggested that the life of the unit was more about the knowledge of the installer than the actually hardware. The new unit uses noticeably less electricity and makes less than half as much noise as the 20 year old piece of crap that was sitting out there. Given that the guy that put ours in was a family friend and we got it for half normal price installed, then it only has to last 7 years for it to be break even considering the price we were quoted for a Bryant system. I'm pretty damned sure it will last at least that long. |
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That's what gets me about residential HVAC. We replaced our A/C a couple of months ago (leaking evap coil, didn't want to drop $800 or so to fix a 20 year old A/C). After doing all the reading and research, I quickly realized that these damned things are not complex devices at all. They are nothing more than copper tubing, two heat exchangers, a compressor, and a fan. That's it. Fortunately we have a family friend who is a general contractor and installed an A/C for us extremely cheap as a side job. About half what it would've cost from the local guys in town. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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There is a huge markup in HVAC. Think about it they can charge pretty much what they think they can get from you. You don't want to live in a house that's 90 degrees in the summer time do you? Bottom line is there is room to negotiate with most HVAC contractors. You need to make sure they do the proper load calculations and that they just don't estimate it off the square footage of the space. The HVAC units themselves are insanely expensive for what they are. It's a compressor with copper tubing and a fan motor. You can buy a new car for what some of these systems cost. That's what gets me about residential HVAC. We replaced our A/C a couple of months ago (leaking evap coil, didn't want to drop $800 or so to fix a 20 year old A/C). After doing all the reading and research, I quickly realized that these damned things are not complex devices at all. They are nothing more than copper tubing, two heat exchangers, a compressor, and a fan. That's it. Fortunately we have a family friend who is a general contractor and installed an A/C for us extremely cheap as a side job. About half what it would've cost from the local guys in town. Actually, from everything I have read about the manufactures, they only turn about a 40% profit when it's all said and done. They are not spinning out units and making something stupid like 400%. After the manufacturer pays for them to be shipped across county to the wholesaler, the wholesaler puts their markup on them and stores them until the contractor buys it, again marking it up and selling it to you. Everyone it that chain has overhead that gets passed on to the final cost. |
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If the upstairs unit ain't broke, I wouldn't fix it. It could run another 10+ years.
For the basement unit, you can buy the equipment on Ebay. If you don't buy it on Ebay, those prices will indicate how much your local AC company is paying. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rheem-2-Ton-15-5-SEER-R410A-X-13-Complete-Split-System-AC-Only-/151721782578 I like to buy units that are SLIGHTLY larger that the calcs. Rather than a 1.5 ton unit, I'd put a 2.0 ton unit in the basement. - If I am away, I can turn the unit off. Larger units can catch up quickly. - If the equipment isn't running so much (hours), I think it will last longer. |
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I just paid $24k to have a new 4 ton carrier 21 seer and 98% gas furnace installed, both greenspeed models and absolute top of the line.
All the old ducting was ripped out and all new registers went in including adding two new return ducts. Took two guys 6 full days to do all the work and I have a 10 year warranty on parts and 5 year on labor that includes seasonal maint. I do not feel ripped off, considering I used to be a contractor and understand all the overhead that goes along with being an established biz that will be in existence years from now. Yes I could have got the same for cheaper but you do get what you pay for. ETA: I am an engineer and also a mechanical construction superintendent on multi billion dollar process facilities. I understand installation value above materials cost. |
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Quoted: I like to buy units that are SLIGHTLY larger that the calcs. Rather than a 1.5 ton unit, I'd put a 2.0 ton unit in the basement. - If I am away, I can turn the unit off. Larger units can catch up quickly. - If the equipment isn't running so much (hours), I think it will last longer. View Quote Over-sizing a unit is foolish. It should be sized correctly with a good heat loss/heat gain survey, so that it runs optimally and removes humidity not just blow a short burst of cold air. Short cycling is just as hard on a unit, while not cooling properly, as running all the time. |
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If the upstairs unit ain't broke, I wouldn't fix it. It could run another 10+ years. You can buy the equipment on Ebay. If you don't buy it on Ebay, those prices will indicate how much your local AC company is paying. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rheem-2-Ton-15-5-SEER-R410A-X-13-Complete-Split-System-AC-Only-/151721782578 I like to buy units that are SLIGHTLY larger that the calcs. Rather than a 1.5 ton unit, I'd put a 2.0 ton unit in the basement. - If I am away, I can turn the unit off. Larger units can catch up quickly. - If the equipment isn't running so much (hours), I think it will last longer. View Quote 1) All manufacturers will void any and all warranties with online purchases. So using eBay as a price gauge is inaccurate as you are not getting any sort of warranty which does hold a very real value. I can show you links to the online contracts that show this. 2) Bigger is worse. The constant start/stop of anything electrical or mechanical is what A) causes the most wear B) causes the most energy consumption. Oversized equipment also causes rapid tempature swings and poor dehumidification, not to mention using electricity, gas, or oil that you don't need. So you just paid for an oversized unit that will have a shorter life, cause your home to be less comfortable, and increase you energy bills. There is a science behind making the entire system work in your favor, very few people realize this. |
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Quoted: 1) All manufacturers will void any and all warranties with online purchases. So using eBay as a price gauge is inaccurate as you are not getting any sort of warranty which does hold a very real value. I can show you links to the online contracts that show this. 2) Bigger is worse. The constant start/stop of anything electrical or mechanical is what A) causes the most wear B) causes the most energy consumption. Oversized equipment also causes rapid tempature swings and poor dehumidification, not to mention using electricity, gas, or oil that you don't need. So you just paid for an oversized unit that will have a shorter life, cause your home to be less comfortable, and increase you energy bills. There is a science behind making the entire system work in your favor, very few people realize this. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: If the upstairs unit ain't broke, I wouldn't fix it. It could run another 10+ years. You can buy the equipment on Ebay. If you don't buy it on Ebay, those prices will indicate how much your local AC company is paying. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rheem-2-Ton-15-5-SEER-R410A-X-13-Complete-Split-System-AC-Only-/151721782578 I like to buy units that are SLIGHTLY larger that the calcs. Rather than a 1.5 ton unit, I'd put a 2.0 ton unit in the basement. - If I am away, I can turn the unit off. Larger units can catch up quickly. - If the equipment isn't running so much (hours), I think it will last longer. 1) All manufacturers will void any and all warranties with online purchases. So using eBay as a price gauge is inaccurate as you are not getting any sort of warranty which does hold a very real value. I can show you links to the online contracts that show this. 2) Bigger is worse. The constant start/stop of anything electrical or mechanical is what A) causes the most wear B) causes the most energy consumption. Oversized equipment also causes rapid tempature swings and poor dehumidification, not to mention using electricity, gas, or oil that you don't need. So you just paid for an oversized unit that will have a shorter life, cause your home to be less comfortable, and increase you energy bills. There is a science behind making the entire system work in your favor, very few people realize this. This guy gets it. More to cooling the air there is also latent heat contained in your furniture and such...running longer with less off/on cycles is a better system. |
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Actually, the numbers are not that easy. -snip- View Quote Thank you for a very informative post. I'm currently shopping HVAC installers in my area. We're going to replace our furnace and add A/C or a heat pump. I already understood most of the points you made, but it's good to hear them from a professional in the field. |
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Over-sizing a unit is foolish. It should be sized correctly with a good heat loss/heat gain survey, so that it runs optimally and removes humidity not just blow a short burst of cold air. Short cycling is just as hard on a unit, while not cooling properly, as running all the time. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I like to buy units that are SLIGHTLY larger that the calcs. Rather than a 1.5 ton unit, I'd put a 2.0 ton unit in the basement. - If I am away, I can turn the unit off. Larger units can catch up quickly. - If the equipment isn't running so much (hours), I think it will last longer. Over-sizing a unit is foolish. It should be sized correctly with a good heat loss/heat gain survey, so that it runs optimally and removes humidity not just blow a short burst of cold air. Short cycling is just as hard on a unit, while not cooling properly, as running all the time. I setup my system to have the best of both worlds. 2 stage cooling, with var. Speed air handler. My small home calls for 1.5 tons. I went with a 2 ton 2stage unit, so it can run at 70% mostly, and the air handler can lower the fan speed as well. A proper size Single stage unit will struggle in extreme temps. But with my extra cooling power it was 68 degrees in the house on a 105 degree day. Multi stage units are something to consider. Running in low is alot more beneficial than an extra seer. |
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This guy gets it. More to cooling the air there is also latent heat contained in your furniture and such...running longer with less off/on cycles is a better system. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Quoted:
If the upstairs unit ain't broke, I wouldn't fix it. It could run another 10+ years. You can buy the equipment on Ebay. If you don't buy it on Ebay, those prices will indicate how much your local AC company is paying. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rheem-2-Ton-15-5-SEER-R410A-X-13-Complete-Split-System-AC-Only-/151721782578 I like to buy units that are SLIGHTLY larger that the calcs. Rather than a 1.5 ton unit, I'd put a 2.0 ton unit in the basement. - If I am away, I can turn the unit off. Larger units can catch up quickly. - If the equipment isn't running so much (hours), I think it will last longer. 1) All manufacturers will void any and all warranties with online purchases. So using eBay as a price gauge is inaccurate as you are not getting any sort of warranty which does hold a very real value. I can show you links to the online contracts that show this. 2) Bigger is worse. The constant start/stop of anything electrical or mechanical is what A) causes the most wear B) causes the most energy consumption. Oversized equipment also causes rapid tempature swings and poor dehumidification, not to mention using electricity, gas, or oil that you don't need. So you just paid for an oversized unit that will have a shorter life, cause your home to be less comfortable, and increase you energy bills. There is a science behind making the entire system work in your favor, very few people realize this. This guy gets it. More to cooling the air there is also latent heat contained in your furniture and such...running longer with less off/on cycles is a better system. Trane warranty department took in a compressor back in 1972 that was claimed to be DOA. Trane's test lab hooked it up to and ran that compressor for 28yrs, 24/7/365 until it died. 28yrs non stop. Short cycling kills compressors. http://www.trane.com/residential/en/why-us/testing-facility.html |
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That's what I found out. It's almost like a racket. Try finding the dealer cost on a unit. You won't find it unless your a dealer or installer. The prices vary by region as well. Over at the hvac forum I looked at while researching, posting quote numbers was strictly forbidden. They do pretty much charge what they can get out of you. Depending on your location and other factors, prices can literally double. For the same exact job and equipment. I had a question for my installer the other day, and they said you wouldn't beleive how bad a/c companies gouge prices during a heat wave like we're having in the south right now. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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There is a huge markup in HVAC. Think about it they can charge pretty much what they think they can get from you. You don't want to live in a house that's 90 degrees in the summer time do you? Bottom line is there is room to negotiate with most HVAC contractors. You need to make sure they do the proper load calculations and that they just don't estimate it off the square footage of the space. The HVAC units themselves are insanely expensive for what they are. It's a compressor with copper tubing and a fan motor. You can buy a new car for what some of these systems cost. That's what I found out. It's almost like a racket. Try finding the dealer cost on a unit. You won't find it unless your a dealer or installer. The prices vary by region as well. Over at the hvac forum I looked at while researching, posting quote numbers was strictly forbidden. They do pretty much charge what they can get out of you. Depending on your location and other factors, prices can literally double. For the same exact job and equipment. I had a question for my installer the other day, and they said you wouldn't beleive how bad a/c companies gouge prices during a heat wave like we're having in the south right now. Some brands aren't exclusive. You can go buy a comfort maker or goodman in most areas at the same price that I can as an industrial contractor. |
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I had my system redone this year. My house is about 1700 square foot and they did everything - thermostat, registers in the house, new ducting, heat pump, A-coil and inside unit, the works.
It was about $6700 by the time the dust settled. |
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Zone dampers, controls and reworking your ductwork adds quite a bit to the cost of things. Personally I wouldn't do it, there is a lot more to it than just combining the units. If your just talking about replacing the coil, condenser and lineset I would price you about $5-6k. I just priced out two systems today a 2 ton and a 3 ton both 12 seer. Equipment cost was $3k.
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This is (I think, still haven't gotten estimate back yet although promised last night) the recommended unit, although not from the installer I'm currently talking to:
Carrier Infinity, 17 SEER 3-ton @ $4,055.84 |
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Just had the AC guy check mine today. The compressor is about done. Looking at a new system 14 Seer 3.5 ton waiting on the quote.
Anyone have a ballpark idea on cost? |
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Get multiple quotes.
For the same equipment specifications (18 seer, multistage, variable speed fan), Carrier vs Trane was a 30% spread when I had quotes written up last week. Kharn |
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Sucks you don't know anyone personally in the field... I just put an attic unit in with an outdoor heat pump in my fathers house, the amount of work I did at his house and the equipment used would have easily cost him 12-13k, he paid probably 1/4 of that...
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Quoted:
My Trane 16 SEER cost $12,000. Worth every penny. Replaced a POS Goodman system that wasn't worth the pot-metal it was made of. View Quote I got a Bryant 17seer, 98m furnance, humidifier, and ipad looking thermostat for $8500, $7800 after mail rebates from utilities. Theres got to be more in your $12G |
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Tag for info as my exterior condenser is making some noise, not sure if the compress, unbalanced fan, etc. Thus cooler outside than inside.
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Quoted: Our A/C unit in the basement is dead (coolant leak, oil in the system). Our main floor A/C just got a coolant charge, but is 11 years old and the original (contractor grade) unit. Typical lifespan for them is 10-12 years. The basement A/C needs about 1.5 tons and is currently a 2.0 ton unit, while the main floor is 2.5 tons. So, the heat & air engineer comes out today and we talk about just replacing the basement, replacing both, or combining into a single dual-zone unit. We also discussed removing some "kinks" in the ducting from the original install and possibly moving a return vent and/or making another bigger to increase return CFM on the main floor. We're looking at stuff in the basement where the furnaces are and throws out a $3200 ballpark number - which I think is the combined unit, and not as bad as I was worrying. Well, we sit down upstairs and start going over the details of what he's going to quote and $3200 is for the 1.5 ton basement unit only - coils and compressor, re-using old furnace. I'm like "So, what kind of price range are we talking for the dual zone? Say, the 17 seer 2-stage?" He covers his face and says he hates roughing numbers without actually calculating the work, but "well, it should be less than $10,000." Now I'm all FFS, my first house was a 650 sq. ft. condo I bought for $40k, and he's talking almost $10k for an A/C unit. Am I crazy to think I could get a significantly better price elsewhere? Am I crazy to seriously consider spending $10k instead of ~$7-8k for two new, separate units? (Our upstairs was $4240 in 2011 for a new 3.0 ton unit plus some additional ducting.) View Quote |
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Quoted: 1) All manufacturers will void any and all warranties with online purchases. So using eBay as a price gauge is inaccurate as you are not getting any sort of warranty which does hold a very real value. I can show you links to the online contracts that show this. 2) Bigger is worse. The constant start/stop of anything electrical or mechanical is what A) causes the most wear B) causes the most energy consumption. Oversized equipment also causes rapid tempature swings and poor dehumidification, not to mention using electricity, gas, or oil that you don't need. So you just paid for an oversized unit that will have a shorter life, cause your home to be less comfortable, and increase you energy bills. There is a science behind making the entire system work in your favor, very few people realize this. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: If the upstairs unit ain't broke, I wouldn't fix it. It could run another 10+ years. You can buy the equipment on Ebay. If you don't buy it on Ebay, those prices will indicate how much your local AC company is paying. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rheem-2-Ton-15-5-SEER-R410A-X-13-Complete-Split-System-AC-Only-/151721782578 I like to buy units that are SLIGHTLY larger that the calcs. Rather than a 1.5 ton unit, I'd put a 2.0 ton unit in the basement. - If I am away, I can turn the unit off. Larger units can catch up quickly. - If the equipment isn't running so much (hours), I think it will last longer. 1) All manufacturers will void any and all warranties with online purchases. So using eBay as a price gauge is inaccurate as you are not getting any sort of warranty which does hold a very real value. I can show you links to the online contracts that show this. 2) Bigger is worse. The constant start/stop of anything electrical or mechanical is what A) causes the most wear B) causes the most energy consumption. Oversized equipment also causes rapid tempature swings and poor dehumidification, not to mention using electricity, gas, or oil that you don't need. So you just paid for an oversized unit that will have a shorter life, cause your home to be less comfortable, and increase you energy bills. There is a science behind making the entire system work in your favor, very few people realize this. Uh, no. I bought Goodman equipment, registered it online, and had a problem a few years later. Goodman honored their warranty. http://www.goodmanmfg.com/WarrantyOverview/WarrantyRegistration.aspx |
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Quoted: This is (I think, still haven't gotten estimate back yet although promised last night) the recommended unit, although not from the installer I'm currently talking to: Carrier Infinity, 17 SEER 3-ton @ $4,055.84 http://ncshvac.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/24ANB176-Infinity.jpg View Quote |
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Quoted: Bah. Research the distributor cost of the unit, then ask why he thinks two guys working for one day are worth $3k each. View Quote FML, the upstairs unit just went down. |
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Tag for info as my exterior condenser is making some noise, not sure if the compress, unbalanced fan, etc. Thus cooler outside than inside. View Quote Not an hvac guy but that screams condesor motor. To the op I'm getting multiple quotes and letting the installers know it. I want best and final pricing. Top of the line trane heater,blower,AC, humidity control is about 10k. Top of the line everything. 5 ton AC. 115 gas heater and handler. If I'm spending this kind of money I want it to truly condition the air. The install cost should remain the same |
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House flip Oct 2013 need a new AC unit had unit replaced (outside part and inside) for 2,300.00. I do a lot business with them so they gave me a break.
Don't remember size of house but think it was around 2,200 ft |
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Uh, no. I bought Goodman equipment, registered it online, and had a problem a few years later. Goodman honored their warranty. http://www.goodmanmfg.com/WarrantyOverview/WarrantyRegistration.aspx View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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If the upstairs unit ain't broke, I wouldn't fix it. It could run another 10+ years. You can buy the equipment on Ebay. If you don't buy it on Ebay, those prices will indicate how much your local AC company is paying. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rheem-2-Ton-15-5-SEER-R410A-X-13-Complete-Split-System-AC-Only-/151721782578 I like to buy units that are SLIGHTLY larger that the calcs. Rather than a 1.5 ton unit, I'd put a 2.0 ton unit in the basement. - If I am away, I can turn the unit off. Larger units can catch up quickly. - If the equipment isn't running so much (hours), I think it will last longer. 1) All manufacturers will void any and all warranties with online purchases. So using eBay as a price gauge is inaccurate as you are not getting any sort of warranty which does hold a very real value. I can show you links to the online contracts that show this. 2) Bigger is worse. The constant start/stop of anything electrical or mechanical is what A) causes the most wear B) causes the most energy consumption. Oversized equipment also causes rapid tempature swings and poor dehumidification, not to mention using electricity, gas, or oil that you don't need. So you just paid for an oversized unit that will have a shorter life, cause your home to be less comfortable, and increase you energy bills. There is a science behind making the entire system work in your favor, very few people realize this. Uh, no. I bought Goodman equipment, registered it online, and had a problem a few years later. Goodman honored their warranty. http://www.goodmanmfg.com/WarrantyOverview/WarrantyRegistration.aspx Ah yes, either you or your contractor lied on the warranty form.... I will provide MULTIPLE links to different Goodman manufacturing units, every single warranty form for every single unit Goodman sells has this verbiage in it: This warranty does not apply to: Units that are ordered over the Internet, by telephone, or by other electronic means unless the unit is installed by a dealer adhering to all applicable federal, state, and local codes, policies, and licensing requirements 13,14, 15, & 16 SEER AC 18 SEER AC 90+% furnaces 80% furnaces Air handlers Coils I can provide more if this isn't enough. The only way around that is to have a legit dealer do the install or lie on the registration. BTW- Who is doing your manual J to size the equipment properly? |
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Sucks you don't know anyone personally in the field... I just put an attic unit in with an outdoor heat pump in my fathers house, the amount of work I did at his house and the equipment used would have easily cost him 12-13k, he paid probably 1/4 of that... View Quote Want to fly to ATL for an install? |
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I got a Bryant 17seer, 98m furnance, humidifier, and ipad looking thermostat for $8500, $7800 after mail rebates from utilities. Theres got to be more in your $12G View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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My Trane 16 SEER cost $12,000. Worth every penny. Replaced a POS Goodman system that wasn't worth the pot-metal it was made of. I got a Bryant 17seer, 98m furnance, humidifier, and ipad looking thermostat for $8500, $7800 after mail rebates from utilities. Theres got to be more in your $12G Bryant != Trane Bryant is the bottom of the Carrier line "contractor grade" units I have now. |
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Quoted:
Sucks you don't know anyone personally in the field... I just put an attic unit in with an outdoor heat pump in my fathers house, the amount of work I did at his house and the equipment used would have easily cost him 12-13k, he paid probably 1/4 of that... Want to fly to ATL for an install? Draw a big enough picture of your project on the back of a big enough check and I can make just about anything happen. |
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