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Posted: 8/29/2015 1:56:08 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lack of training. 50 rounds at paper twice a year isn't training. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What is it with the lack of shooting skills in the NYPD? Lack of training. 50 rounds at paper twice a year isn't training. No it isn't and it is appalling. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 1:56:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is it with the lack of shooting skills in the NYPD? Seems like you hear of them accidentally shooting bystanders more than you hear of them intentionally shooting bad guys. I swear a 3 year old child could shoot better...  I will start off by saying there are a million and one factors that go into a shooting scenario, so it's hard to second guess based on just the article BUT, I would think there is a certain level of responsibility by the department to co troll the buy/bust as much as possible, including a remote or secured location, cover officers, ect. The publics safety should be THE FIRST consideration when planning these types of operations.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 1:59:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No it isn't and it is appalling. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What is it with the lack of shooting skills in the NYPD? Lack of training. 50 rounds at paper twice a year isn't training. No it isn't and it is appalling. No one in a position to change it cares so wash, rinse, repeat. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:04:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Needs an official statement to the effect that "At least they got some guns off the street."
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:08:19 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This same unit had two undercovers killed in '03 when their buy and bust went south. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Batf managed to shoot up a grocery store parking lot upstate once when what they thought was a buy turned out to be a robbery, I think one officer was killed This same unit had two undercovers killed in '03 when their buy and bust went south. I remember that, the Verrazano bridge was shut down to trap the shooter . |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:09:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This same unit had two undercovers killed in '03 when their buy and bust went south. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Batf managed to shoot up a grocery store parking lot upstate once when what they thought was a buy turned out to be a robbery, I think one officer was killed This same unit had two undercovers killed in '03 when their buy and bust went south. Try, try, until you succeed... |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:11:26 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I remember that, the Verrazano bridge was shut down to trap the shooter . Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Batf managed to shoot up a grocery store parking lot upstate once when what they thought was a buy turned out to be a robbery, I think one officer was killed This same unit had two undercovers killed in '03 when their buy and bust went south. I remember that, the Verrazano bridge was shut down to trap the shooter . Interesting side note, the shooter went on to knock up a female federal prison guard while in custody. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:12:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting side note, the shooter went on to knock up a female federal prison guard while in custody. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Batf managed to shoot up a grocery store parking lot upstate once when what they thought was a buy turned out to be a robbery, I think one officer was killed This same unit had two undercovers killed in '03 when their buy and bust went south. I remember that, the Verrazano bridge was shut down to trap the shooter . Interesting side note, the shooter went on to knock up a female federal prison guard while in custody. Feral???? 
Whoops, thought you wrote feral instead of federal! My bad. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:22:43 PM EDT
[#9]
Seems like most of these cases come from NY or Kali with Georgia coming in third.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:26:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Could the NYPD be any more of a joke?
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:28:38 PM EDT
[#11]
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Is there any other time of Murder? Capitol murder is just semantics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Does the alleged gun seller get charged with manslaughter? Bystander killed as result of criminal act? Felony murder. Is there any other time of Murder? Capitol murder is just semantics. "Felony murder" is a legal term of art. It's a category of murder that applies when someone dies as a result of the accused committing a felony, or in the process thereof. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:31:37 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Could the NYPD be any more of a joke? 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:34:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good luck with that. My friends that are instructors say they have been trying to get the department to approve better training for over a decade with barely any luck. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That said, realistic training under stress and requiring much higher marksmanship from officers should be required from nearly all P.D. Good luck with that. My friends that are instructors say they have been trying to get the department to approve better training for over a decade with barely any luck. Had a cop tell me one time he was "too busy fighting crime to train" in regards to learning how to use his Duty weapons. 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:34:34 PM EDT
[#14]
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Needs an official statement to the effect that "At least they got some guns off the street." and gotta break a few eggs if you want to make and omelet... 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:35:20 PM EDT
[#15]
Meh, screws fall out all the time. The world's an imperfect place.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:35:59 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good luck with that. My friends that are instructors say they have been trying to get the department to approve better training for over a decade with barely any luck. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That said, realistic training under stress and requiring much higher marksmanship from officers should be required from nearly all P.D. Good luck with that. My friends that are instructors say they have been trying to get the department to approve better training for over a decade with barely any luck. Seems like NYPD prefers one time solutions to training problems, like 12 goddamn pound triggers. Unbelievable. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:37:43 PM EDT
[#17]
Only 1,bystander? Cuz we are talking about NYPD. .
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:38:23 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems like NYPD prefers one time solutions to training problems, like 12 goddamn pound triggers. Unbelievable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That said, realistic training under stress and requiring much higher marksmanship from officers should be required from nearly all P.D. Good luck with that. My friends that are instructors say they have been trying to get the department to approve better training for over a decade with barely any luck. Seems like NYPD prefers one time solutions to training problems, like 12 goddamn pound triggers. Unbelievable. Cheaper and more easy to explain than actual, useful training. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:38:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Maybe I missed something, but I understood the article to say that the UC and the BG were seated in the back seat of a car. If so, that's some remarkable shooting.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:40:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe I missed something, but I understood the article to say that the UC and the BG were seated in the back seat of a car. If so, that's some remarkable shooting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe I missed something, but I understood the article to say that the UC and the BG were seated in the back seat of a car. If so, that's some remarkable shooting. From another source: The undercover handed over the $2,400 he brought to buy two semiautomatic handguns, then jumped out of the car, pulled out his own weapon and fired 11 rounds at the alleged would-be robber, Alvin Smothers, 37, hitting him in the arm and shoulder. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:42:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From another source: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Maybe I missed something, but I understood the article to say that the UC and the BG were seated in the back seat of a car. If so, that's some remarkable shooting. From another source: The undercover handed over the $2,400 he brought to buy two semiautomatic handguns, then jumped out of the car, pulled out his own weapon and fired 11 rounds at the alleged would-be robber, Alvin Smothers, 37, hitting him in the arm and shoulder. Wow. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 2:45:45 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cheaper and more easy to explain than actual, useful training. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Seems like NYPD prefers one time solutions to training problems, like 12 goddamn pound triggers. Unbelievable. Cheaper and more easy to explain than actual, useful training. It would be both financially and logistically impossible for the NYPD to provide what any knowledgeable person would consider a "reasonable" level of training. Not to mention the fact that the NYPD has traditionally been laughably behind the curve in terms of firearms training and equipment. In the early 90's, I carried my duty gun in a holster the design of which dated back to the 40's. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:08:04 PM EDT
[#23]
how do you put a stray round in the wrong guy TWICE?
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:09:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
how do you put a stray round in the wrong guy TWICE? Use the same bad aim at the same target twice. The same way you put 2 rounds an inch apart on the edge of the paper when target shooting. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:11:12 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Link The 61-year-old bystander hit by a stray bullet when an undercover NYPD cop opened fire during a gun buy-and-bust gone bad has died, officials said Saturday.
Felix Kumi, of Mount Vernon, died of his wounds at Jacobi Medical Center at 12:55 a.m. Saturday, police said. He was shot twice in the midsection about 4 p.m. Friday when an undercover officer blasted away at a man armed with a fake firearm trying to steal the cash the cop was about to use to purchase two guns as part of an undercover investigation in Mount Vernon. Onion link? What a cluster fuck. hard to believe it's real |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:19:48 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would be both financially and logistically impossible for the NYPD to provide what any knowledgeable person would consider a "reasonable" level of training. Not to mention the fact that the NYPD has traditionally been laughably behind the curve in terms of firearms training and equipment. In the early 90's, I carried my duty gun in a holster the design of which dated back to the 40's. It's still in use too. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:24:14 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Use the same bad aim at the same target twice. The same way you put 2 rounds an inch apart on the edge of the paper when target shooting. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: how do you put a stray round in the wrong guy TWICE? Use the same bad aim at the same target twice. The same way you put 2 rounds an inch apart on the edge of the paper when target shooting. Bro, do you even 12lb trigger? |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:29:24 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's still in use too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It would be both financially and logistically impossible for the NYPD to provide what any knowledgeable person would consider a "reasonable" level of training. Not to mention the fact that the NYPD has traditionally been laughably behind the curve in terms of firearms training and equipment. In the early 90's, I carried my duty gun in a holster the design of which dated back to the 40's. It's still in use too. Didn't y'all stay with FMJ/LRN 'till the mid '90s as well? ETA: Never mind, found an article on it---it was 1998. 
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/nyregion/new-york-police-will-start-using-deadlier-bullets.html |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:30:15 PM EDT
[#29]
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#ohwell Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dude should be charged with manslaughter. I garuntee you that if a normal person shot someone with their chl and missed and killed a person they'd be up on manslaughter charges. #ohwell You gonna get Listed |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:30:22 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cheaper and more easy to explain than actual, useful training. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good luck with that. My friends that are instructors say they have been trying to get the department to approve better training for over a decade with barely any luck. Seems like NYPD prefers one time solutions to training problems, like 12 goddamn pound triggers. Unbelievable. Cheaper and more easy to explain than actual, useful training. Certainly, and I'm sure someone finally got that promotion because of two very pretty graphs showing a decline in NDs and less money spent on recurrent training. But because it doesn't directly address the problem there are unintended consequences- officers now need even more training that they're not getting because it's harder to shoot with a 12# trigger than a factory one. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:31:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Certainly, and I'm sure someone finally got that promotion because of two very pretty graphs showing a decline in NDs and less money spent on recurrent training. But because it doesn't directly address the problem there are unintended consequences- officers now need even more training that they're not getting because it's harder to shoot with a 12# trigger than a factory one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Good luck with that. My friends that are instructors say they have been trying to get the department to approve better training for over a decade with barely any luck. Seems like NYPD prefers one time solutions to training problems, like 12 goddamn pound triggers. Unbelievable. Cheaper and more easy to explain than actual, useful training. Certainly, and I'm sure someone finally got that promotion because of two very pretty graphs showing a decline in NDs and less money spent on recurrent training. But because it doesn't directly address the problem there are unintended consequences- officers now need even more training that they're not getting because it's harder to shoot with a 12# trigger than a factory one. Spreadsheet policing, bro. It's the way of the world. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:33:19 PM EDT
[#32]
Well, at least that cop can depend on the top brass backing him up.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:34:55 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, at least that cop can depend on the top brass backing him up. Nothing happened to my co-worker who killed the grandmother. He's a supervisor now. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:35:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nothing happened to my co-worker who killed the grandmother. He's a supervisor now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well, at least that cop can depend on the top brass backing him up. Nothing happened to my co-worker who killed the grandmother. He's a supervisor now. If he'd been on vacation when that happened, he'd still be beat trash. 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:37:44 PM EDT
[#35]
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If he'd been on vacation when that happened, he'd still be beat trash. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well, at least that cop can depend on the top brass backing him up. Nothing happened to my co-worker who killed the grandmother. He's a supervisor now. If he'd been on vacation when that happened, he'd still be beat trash. If he hadn't of gotten involved he would have been promoted sooner. 
Best part was when he tried to put in for a medal for being involved in a shooting. 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:46:53 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what I would think but a murder charge instead of manslaughter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Does the alleged gun seller get charged with manslaughter? Bystander killed as result of criminal act? That's what I would think but a murder charge instead of manslaughter. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 3:53:12 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Talk about some fucked up moral hazard: this would INCENTIVIZE the NYPD to spray and pray in these situations, since the consequences are placed on someone else. If you want fewer innocent bystanders, you need more consequences for the officers, not fewer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Does the alleged gun seller get charged with manslaughter? Bystander killed as result of criminal act? That's what I would think but a murder charge instead of manslaughter. Who says they care about having fewer innocent bystanders hit? The fact that this has happened for decades and nothing has been changed shows that it's not real high on the priorities list. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 4:06:44 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Talk about some fucked up moral hazard: this would INCENTIVIZE the NYPD to spray and pray in these situations, since the consequences are placed on someone else. If you want fewer innocent bystanders, you need more consequences for the officers, not fewer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Does the alleged gun seller get charged with manslaughter? Bystander killed as result of criminal act? That's what I would think but a murder charge instead of manslaughter. Surely you don't think that a few bystanders are more important than the cause of "getting guns off the streets"? Everybody knows that guns (except for cop guns) cause violence, so only cops should have them. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 4:10:11 PM EDT
[#39]
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Lack of training. 50 rounds at paper twice a year isn't training. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What is it with the lack of shooting skills in the NYPD? Lack of training. 50 rounds at paper twice a year isn't training. Wow.... That is much less than I even guessed.... |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 4:16:42 PM EDT
[#40]
Innocent citizens' lives do not trump officer safety.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 4:30:00 PM EDT
[#41]
Extorris thread.
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Posted: 8/29/2015 4:30:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Extorris thread. Reported. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 4:33:21 PM EDT
[#43]
And yet NYPD can carry firearms anywhere in the USA, and I can not. Seems legit
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Posted: 8/29/2015 4:34:06 PM EDT
[#44]
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Reported. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Extorris thread. Reported. Reported for reporting 
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Posted: 8/29/2015 4:37:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reported. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Extorris thread. Reported. #butthurt reported |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 4:38:25 PM EDT
[#46]
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And yet NYPD can carry firearms anywhere in the USA, and I can not. Seems legit <3 HR 218 |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 5:10:24 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Reported. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Extorris thread. Reported. I spit beer on my iPad! LOL! |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 5:12:02 PM EDT
[#48]
It's worth it to win the war on guns.
If you want to make an omelet you have to kill some people. |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 5:35:20 PM EDT
[#49]
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Funny/sad part is most gun people shoot better than most cops because they don't take the time to become proficiant in shooting. Even when shooting was work I enjoyed the shit out of it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That said, realistic training under stress and requiring much higher marksmanship from officers should be required from nearly all P.D. Good luck with that. My friends that are instructors say they have been trying to get the department to approve better training for over a decade with barely any luck. Funny/sad part is most gun people shoot better than most cops because they don't take the time to become proficiant in shooting. Even when shooting was work I enjoyed the shit out of it. What pisses me off the most are the arrogrant cops that think they can shoot better or handle firearms better just because they are cops. Cop a ND in the parking lot at an IPSC shoot last year before the shoot. Wasn't allowed to shoot, nonrefundable refund. Made a big stink that he was a cop. RO said I don't give a fuck who you are. ND is immediate ejection . |
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Posted: 8/29/2015 5:53:22 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And yet NYPD can carry firearms anywhere in the USA, and I can not. Seems legit I guess we just aren't professional enough. |
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