What are you talking about?  The Catholic Church has been the same for the past 2000 years. Absolutely no changes. That's what I'm told anyway.

"Absolutely no changes"?

Who said anything about 'absolutely no changes'? of course there are minor changes in how one worships. But the doctrine, the what we believe, the why we believe it is the same as it was in the 3rd century, in the 2nd century, in the first century.

An Oak tree is ontologically the same as its acorn but it has undergone alot of accidental changes. Ditto between a baby and an adult. But organic growth involves change without loss of identity.

Has Protestantism changed since the 15th century? Yes. ALOT.

None of your ancestors would have accepted contraception, no fault divorce and remarriage, soft porn, gay marriage... and yet main stream Protestantism has accepted them all. But it's still defined as an opposition to Catholicism.

We don't define ourselves in opposition to the Orthodox or the Anglicans or the 'others'. Our chief opposition is "the world, the flesh and the devil" which mostly involves intra-Catholic squabbles. We are by FAR our own worst enemies. No one comes close to doing more damage to Catholics than other Catholics.

Specious question. Wait let me prove that you and I are conscious beings too!



 

Nope. Sorry. I've been told numerous times here that the Catholic Church is the early church. If there were changes then it would no longer be the same as the early church.

Who said I attend a church that teaches that those things you mentioned are okay?  See, it's hard to group protestants up and say they believe a certain doctrine because not all non catholics believe the same. You have no clue what denomination I am because I always point to Jesus as the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I don't point to my church. Christ is not confined to any institution, building, church etc. He can be experienced by anyone anywhere. A church is not needed for salvation because he pours out the Holy Spirit to all that believe in him and has accepted him as Lord and Savior of their lives.

I guess that's the biggest difference I see with prots and caths: prots point people to Jesus and caths point people to the Catholic Church. Just look at the threads started by prots and the ones started by caths.

I take your non-answer as an admission that the bread and wine are just that, bread and wine, not "Body and Blood."

Which is somewhat of a relief, as it means Catholics only practice symbolic cannibalism. Still, the ritual is kinda creepy.

Cannibalism. Wow, that's original.



Do a complete study on substance and essence, then review papal encyclicals, etc. Get back to me with a real question rather than a diatribe.

This is plain ignorant.

For someone who's so stridently bigoted against Catholicism, you certainly don't know anything about it.  

Good to see the neo-gnostics show up with their 'Who needs the sacraments?' matter/spirit dualism.

By transforming the Bread and Wine and, more importantly, by allowing people to actively participate in the process, God demonstrates to us that all of creation is good and capable of being lifted into His presence.

To paraphrase Augustine, if matter was evil, why would God create it?

It's stale weak sauce trolling.

But the fantastic and even macabre nature of the practice is what makes it a true effort of faith.  

We become strong by lifting heavy things, we become enduring by running long distances and we grow into great faith by believing difficult things.  This is something that the rationalists and libertines either don't get or rebel against.

None of the fundamentalists here will claim membership to a Church. Fear or shame. Nothing more.



You speak correctly when you say that Christ is not confined to a building, But he did found an institution and gave the apostles authority over that institution. Let's look at this progression in scripture. Jesus Christ is the truth. The truth is in the Church.



John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory,
the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace
and truth.



John 3:21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God.



John 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.



John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.



1 Cor 5:8 Therefore let us feast, not with the old leaven, nor with the leaven of
malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.



2 Cor 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth; but for the truth.



1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that
thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of
God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the
truth.



Sorry about the archaic language, I love the poetry of KJV and D-R versions.







 

Infused righteousness via the Sacraments, right?

"I assure you: Unless someone is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again. The wind blows where it pleases, and you hear its sound, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit,"

Jesus Christ Our Perfect Sacrifice
John 3: 5-8
Jesus Speaks as the Forerunner Concerning all Spiritual Matters: The Prerequisites of Eternal Life

Shame?  Really?  Maybe it's not shame, maybe we just aren't being prideful. And the only fear I have about talking about my denomination or church is for someone to think that salvation only lies within that denomination or church. A fear that Jesus will not be put front and center.

Sorry, but none of your quotes say that the truth is in the church, they say that Jesus is the truth. Maybe you have your definition of church wrong. Church is Christ followers.
Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Notice too that it says built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, not just Peter.

Fear or shame does not enter in to the truth of God's word or God's kingdom.
There is only life, and that life more abundant.

No, not original. Just accurate.

I did ask a real question. But, as is typical of Christians here, you evade giving an honest answer.

Are you seriously claiming the bread and wine are actually transformed into real flesh and blood?

I'm glad to see one of you who is honest enough to admit that the practice is macabre, but I doubt that it takes much effort of faith to swallow a wafer of bread and a sip of wine.

If it was real flesh and blood that churchgoers had to consume, I'd wager that membership in the Catholic Church would shrink to virtually nothing by the next morning end of the day.

Stan, go to your room before a couple of burly nuns come running up in here and wash your mouth out with Lava soap, and then whack you with duck taped yard sticks until you pass out boy!

Yes, fear and shame. Fear to make public your associations.



Funny that THE Church interpreted those verses differently for 1500 years. You must have some special neo-Gnostic insight that gives your personal interpretation of those verses (a practice condemned by the very scripture whose authority you claim to be absolute) some superior meaning.



Of course, how did I miss Jesus denying Peter any authority? How did I miss Bartholomew getting the keys to the kingdom? Or Jude being told to 'feed my sheep'? I'll have to re-read all that.

 

1 John 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Twire, you are getting dangerously close to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Yall's trippin dude.

I have no fear or shame making public my association with the one and only Savior, Jesus Christ. Denomination and church is irrelevant, I raise up the name of Jesus. How about you?  The only thing I've ever seen you raise up is the Catholic Church. It's a shame really. No where in the bible does it say there is power in the name of the Catholic Church.

Show me where there is suppose to be an interpreter to tell me what scripture says.

I never said Peter was denied any power that the other apostels were given. Reread the verse.

Yes, of course. I have spoken against private interpretation of scripture.



2 Peter 2:20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
 

Will not identify church. Check.



2 Peter 1:20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.



Peter was given authority above the others and exercised it throughout the book of Acts.



 

Alright, I'll bite on this one.
What is the, "Public Interpretation" concerning the correct deciphering of the Scriptures?

Way to take 2 Peter 1:20 out of context!!!  Talking about making scripture say what you want it to say!!!
Lets look at what's before and after that verse.
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

ETA: If I were ashamed of my church I would not attend it. The notion that I don't name my place of worship because I'm ashamed or afraid is outright stupid.

First of all, you should know this: no prophesy of Scriptures (or Scripture from the word of God only) comes from one's own interpretation, because no prophesy every came by the will of man (or through the carnal nature of a man), instead, moved by the Holy Spirit, men (or many common men) spoke from God.

The Trustworthy Prophetic Word: The Will of God Through the Sons of Men
2nd Peter 1: 20-21

Do you not know that your body is a sanctuary (or temple) of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God?
You are not your own, for you were bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body (other mss add and in your spirit, which belong to God).

Glorifying the Holy Spirit in the Temple of Man's Body
1st Corinthians 6: 19-20

Rev 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the Holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
Rev 21:12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.

I see no Catholic, Protestant or any other of the denominations having a gate here.


Rev 21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
Rev 21:25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
Rev 21:26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
Rev 21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

I can't say for anyone else, but I was born a wild branch, then grafted into the House of Israel.

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrlF46tZiQo

So here we are, all Christians and we disagree about the meaning of scripture.

How can this dispute of ours be resolved?

How were such disputes resolved in the New Testament, specifically, in the Acts of the Apostles?

Paul disputed with other Christians in Antioch and they could not convince each other via arguments. So both parties took the dispute to the council of apostles in Jerusalem who then debated and looked over the matter and prayed for guidance....and then they decided what the will of God was to be for all time....and then not only wrote a letter (scritura) but ALSO sent two living representatives up to Antioch to make sure that scripture (letter) was properly interpreted and implemented.

A letter alone can never be enough.

Which is why Our Lord, in the Great Commission to the Apostles did not say "go ye therefore and write down the whole Gospel, print up a million copies and distribute them to all nations for lo, my Holy Spirit will infallibly guide any reader as to the correct interpretation".

No......come on now, what did Our Lord say to the apostles? He ordered THEM to go make disciples of all the nations, teaching them to obey all the commandments and promising to be with them, the apostles, always....

And so it was to the group of leaders that this mandate went. It was to them that Our Lord delegated teaching authority, the keys, and to them he promised perpetual presence. Not to anyone who might read about it later.

There is no dispute here.

Yet almost all denominations, instead of teaching them to obey all the Commandments, teach replacing the Sabbath with the day of the sun, and replacing the seven Holy (set apart) days that our Father in Heaven said to observe, with pagan solstice days. All of the Disciples kept these Holy days and the Sabbath, even after the death, burial and resurrection of our Savior.

I think you are wrong. The apostles and the earliest Christians were Jews. They observed the Sabbath but then celebrated the Resurrection on Sunday. In 155 AD, Justin Martyr wrote





"On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place. The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits. When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered
admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things. Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for
all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by
our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain
eternal salvation. When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss. Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren. He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe,
through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a
considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts. When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.' When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded,
those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted"
bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.
"




It would appear that only a century after the Resurrection the Catholic Mass was already well established. And Constantine did not become emperor for 150 more years after that. So was the Church already in apostacy in the first century? If so, Christ did not found much of a Church at all and his words in Matthew 16 would be a lie, the gates of hell had prevailed.



 

Then why not name it.



The Church is the Body of Christ.





 

Amazing how a simple series of posts detailing how Catholic religious beliefs and practices have scriptural basis can turn into such a flame-fest.

That day is not called Sabbath in the Bible. Just because some men decided to celebrate Christ's resurrection on Sunday doesn't mean there is any scriptural authority for it. I'm not as learned as lots of you guys but I haven't found it anywhere where. There is a scripture that says woe unto those who think to change God's times and laws and that is what Justin and his contemporaries were doing. If 95% of Christians decided to celebrate taco Tuesday it wouldn't change anything regarding the seventh day Sabbath. Christians get together for Wed night prayer meetings but that doesn't mean it's the Sabbath. The Bible says Sabbath was made for man. That means everybody not just the Jews. ymmv

Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound
in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in
heaven.



'Some men' were given that authority by Jesus Christ himself.







 

Yes. History, Scripture and universality of practice is so...uncomfortably catholic.



 

right.

Luke 22:46 And he said to them: Why sleep you? arise, pray, lest you enter into temptation.

 

Jesus is Lord.
Maranatha!

Exactly! Sabbath is the only day that is even named in the Bible. Our Father knows His children by who keeps His set apart day, that is to be kept forever. It is the Kingdom of our Father in Heaven, not a democracy, that can be changed by traditions of men.

Ex. 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Ex. 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed

Thank you!

Seriously, pressing me for private/personal information on a public forum is getting a bit creepy. I'm not sure why you want that info as it is irrelevant. I've already told you I raise the name of Jesus, not my place of worship and learning (I worship and study outside of my church building as well). What more information do you want besides what I put on this forum, and why would you want it?  

Yes, the church is the body of Christ. What makes up the body?  Believers do. And since the church is the body, then the body is the church. Which means the church is made up of believers. Which makes my point, the church is the group of Christ believers.

Better stated here:
Many people today understand the church as a building. This is not a biblical understanding of the church. The word “church” comes from the Greek word ekklesia which is defined as “an assembly” or “called-out ones.” The root meaning of “church” is not that of a building, but of people. It is ironic that when you ask people what church they attend, they usually identify a building. Romans 16:5 says “… greet the church that is in their house.” Paul refers to the church in their house—not a church building, but a body of believers.

The church is the body of Christ, of which He is the head. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, “And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” The body of Christ is made up of all believers in Jesus Christ from the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2) until Christ’s return. The body of Christ is comprised of two aspects:

1) The universal church consists of all those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Corinthians 12:13). This verse says that anyone who believes is part of the body of Christ and has received the Spirit of Christ as evidence. The universal church of God is all those who have received salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

2) The local church is described in Galatians 1:1-2: “Paul, an apostle … and all the brothers with me, to the churches in Galatia.” Here we see that in the province of Galatia there were many churches—what we call local churches. A Baptist church, Lutheran church, Catholic church, etc., is not the church, as in the universal church—but rather is a local church, a local body of believers. The universal church is comprised of those who belong to Christ and who have trusted Him for salvation. These members of the universal church should seek fellowship and edification in a local church.

In summary, the church is not a building or a denomination. According to the Bible, the church is the body of Christ—all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 12:13). Local churches are gatherings of members of the universal church. The local church is where the members of the universal church can fully apply the “body” principles of 1 Corinthians chapter 12: encouraging, teaching, and building one another up in the knowledge and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's not really personal information. I couldn't care less about your church location.



When somebody cannot or will not say 'Lutheran' or 'non-denominational' or 'Methodist' or whatever, to me it reeks of disingenuousness.

You said no fundementalists here will claim membership to a church because of fear or shame. Then wanted me to state what church I attend. You never mentioned anything about denomination.

Denomination or church is irrelevant. I attend a church that raises the name of Jesus and Jesus only as Lord and Savior. If they spoke of salvation being through anything other than Christ then I would not attend it.