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Posted: 9/3/2015 3:14:58 PM EDT
[#1]
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He needs to quit doing this stuff, because it just makes more of them move up here.  Most of 'them' aren't paying any property tax. Owners of rentals and homeowners pay it and will just move. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 3:38:49 PM EDT
[#2]
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That is complete bullshit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's about time. Currently, the multiplier used to calculate property values for tax purposes in Chicago is a third what it is downstate. So taxes on a home outside of Cook county are triple what someone in Cook pays. We downstaters have been bitching about this for years. I really have zero sympathy for them. I hope it goes though. Your taxes are $13,500 a year? ETA: To clarify, I know someone who pays about $4,500 a year in Cook (not Chicago) for a small one floor home with a tiny yard. That is complete bullshit. The $4,500 a year? No, not bullshit at all. I've seen the first and second installment papers myself. The $13,500 is because he said downstaters pay 3 times as much as those in Cook. Shithole states are expensive. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 3:53:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trust me, I am not planning on having my pension there when I retire, I view it as a nice to have when it comes to my retirement. That said in my FD we pay 7% of our salary into the pension system, and we don't collect SS. I will be mad as hell if I serve my community for 25 years and don't get the pension I was contractually promised and payed into. Just like I will be mad as hell if I don't get my .mil retirement. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They promised the cops and firefighters pensions, if it wasn't fiscally responsible to so what they promised, the politicians shouldn't have agreed to it during contract time. It's going to suck for property owners, but at least the politicians aren't bailing on the thousands of cops and firefighters who gave 25 plus years of their lives serving the residents. Good. This is now a pension thread where firemen and policemen are more deserving human beings than other people who work for bankrupt entities. So if the feds decide to default on military retirements because "we can't pay for it anymore", would you feel the same way? If you're dumb enough to only have one retirement, you should be smart enough to church up cat food into a meal. Chicago's bond rating is somewhere in the neighborhood of Mexico's, so people believing that they somehow have head of the line privileges at the empty though when the going gets tough is, in the words of the great philosopher Jesus Quintana, "laughable." The only people I'll feel less sympathy for than the rabbit-ear-pants retirees are the people who've bought property there in the last 20 years. Trust me, I am not planning on having my pension there when I retire, I view it as a nice to have when it comes to my retirement. That said in my FD we pay 7% of our salary into the pension system, and we don't collect SS. I will be mad as hell if I serve my community for 25 years and don't get the pension I was contractually promised and payed into. Just like I will be mad as hell if I don't get my .mil retirement. Just like those of us who paid into SS our entire lives will be mad if we don't get it, right? Or should we just suck it up and move on, knowing the polticians raped the SS fund and there's no money there now? |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 3:59:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Doesn't the Illinois Constitution protect public pensions?
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Posted: 9/3/2015 4:10:55 PM EDT
[#5]
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Doesn't the Illinois Constitution protect public pensions? Yes it does but even Rahm can't Magic a few hundred million dollars Into existence. A judge can't really order a bank to honor checks On an overdrawn account state constitution or not. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 4:11:47 PM EDT
[#6]
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When you defer payments for years it eventually bites you in the ass No The 401K was never intended to be a primary retirement account when it was created. You guys in the private sector are being screwed and you're boasting about it Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you defer payments for years it eventually bites you in the ass Quoted:
All government pensions need to go to the same 401k system we in the private sector use. No The 401K was never intended to be a primary retirement account when it was created. You guys in the private sector are being screwed and you're boasting about it 
That gov't titty milk is so sweet, isn't it? |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 4:15:29 PM EDT
[#7]
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Doesn't the Illinois Constitution protect public pensions? Other states have that. Try and enforce it. Almost every one of these public sector pensions are in danger of going BOOM! Most of these are under severe risk. Just how is IL going to print money to pay for it? And if they default, how are the other 49 states going to "guarantee" the pensions? Under severe stress, these plans are going to be just like SS. A hot breakfast and dinner, a bag lunch, a cot with a hot shower 3-5 days a week at the local school/CYO basketball court. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 5:49:50 PM EDT
[#8]
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The $4,500 a year? No, not bullshit at all. I've seen the first and second installment papers myself. The $13,500 is because he said downstaters pay 3 times as much as those in Cook. Shithole states are expensive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's about time. Currently, the multiplier used to calculate property values for tax purposes in Chicago is a third what it is downstate. So taxes on a home outside of Cook county are triple what someone in Cook pays. We downstaters have been bitching about this for years. I really have zero sympathy for them. I hope it goes though. Your taxes are $13,500 a year? ETA: To clarify, I know someone who pays about $4,500 a year in Cook (not Chicago) for a small one floor home with a tiny yard. That is complete bullshit. The $4,500 a year? No, not bullshit at all. I've seen the first and second installment papers myself. The $13,500 is because he said downstaters pay 3 times as much as those in Cook. Shithole states are expensive. Not what I am addressing. It is complete bullshit that these cities have gotten so bloated that people are paying that much money in property taxes on their homes. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 5:50:54 PM EDT
[#9]
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With tax increases like that he could be a Georgia Republican +1 |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 5:57:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not what I am addressing. It is complete bullshit that these cities have gotten so bloated that people are paying that much money in property taxes on their homes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's about time. Currently, the multiplier used to calculate property values for tax purposes in Chicago is a third what it is downstate. So taxes on a home outside of Cook county are triple what someone in Cook pays. We downstaters have been bitching about this for years. I really have zero sympathy for them. I hope it goes though. Your taxes are $13,500 a year? ETA: To clarify, I know someone who pays about $4,500 a year in Cook (not Chicago) for a small one floor home with a tiny yard. That is complete bullshit. The $4,500 a year? No, not bullshit at all. I've seen the first and second installment papers myself. The $13,500 is because he said downstaters pay 3 times as much as those in Cook. Shithole states are expensive. Not what I am addressing. It is complete bullshit that these cities have gotten so bloated that people are paying that much money in property taxes on their homes. They got the municipal government and tax rate they deserved. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 7:14:51 PM EDT
[#11]
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Want cops and firefighters who get paid like McDonalds employees? Go live down south. Not knocking my brothers to the south, but in the long run you get what you pay for. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They promised the cops and firefighters pensions, if it wasn't fiscally responsible to do what they promised, the politicians shouldn't have agreed to it during contract time. It's going to suck for property owners, but at least the politicians aren't bailing on the thousands of cops and firefighters who gave 25 plus years of their lives serving the residents. Politicians lie about pensions they cannot hope to pay for and the voters choose to believe the lie. Tell me how this ends well. It doesn't. What I am saying is raising taxes is sometimes necessary and right because you promised to pay for shit. It doesn't mean it will make you and I the taxpayer happy, and some politicians will hopefully lose their job over it, but its the right thing for a responsible government to do. When you redo the retirement system and balance the budget you lower taxes again. I am all for lower taxes, but right now you sound like a democrat, you want great city services but you don't want to pay for it. I do not want great city services, I want all cities to live within their means. Pension promises are worth the paper they are written on. IOW, not much. You place too much faith on future politicians lowering taxes at some unspecified date. Does not happen. Chicago Area School District students scored an average of 17 on the ACT, the facility and staff averaged a 19. IOW, you have below average facility and staff teaching students who are even more below average. Chicago is a dead man walking, as are most of our Metropolitan areas. Want cops and firefighters who get paid like McDonalds employees? Go live down south. Not knocking my brothers to the south, but in the long run you get what you pay for. That is precisely what you are doing. But you know what? as a Citizen and a Taxpayer, I trust my working class Cops down South, as much, or more, than the Millionaire Cops of the North East. Yes, I've lived in both places. That said, I can certainly understand Why someone would want to work toward the Sweetest and Fattest retirement possible. It's what I would want. It's just human nature. You miss the point of the whole discussion. It's not a question of whether they deserve the sweet pension; it's just the fact that the Numbers are unsustainable in the long run. There isn't enough money to pay every first responder millions of dollars. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 9:54:51 PM EDT
[#12]
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That is precisely what you are doing. But you know what? as a Citizen and a Taxpayer, I trust my working class Cops down South, as much, or more, than the Millionaire Cops of the North East. Yes, I've lived in both places. That said, I can certainly understand Why someone would want to work toward the Sweetest and Fattest retirement possible. It's what I would want. It's just human nature. You miss the point of the whole discussion. It's not a question of whether they deserve the sweet pension; it's just the fact that the Numbers are unsustainable in the long run. There isn't enough money to pay every first responder millions of dollars. I don't disagree with the part in red, but these cities spend plenty of money on other nefarious shit, but the thing they always want to cut first is Cops and Firefighters. Why? Because they know people don't want to cut necessary shit like public safety, so in turn they will support the next tax hike. If politicians really did their job they would cut out the bullshit first, but they never do. To your other point, in many of these cities 100k is barely a livable wage. Some of these guys making 120k with 500 hrs of OT a year may seem like a lot, but in NYC, Chicago, and many other places its next to nothing. |
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Posted: 9/3/2015 9:57:17 PM EDT
[#13]
they should default and declare bankruptcy
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Posted: 9/4/2015 5:30:00 AM EDT
[#14]
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That said in my FD we pay 7% of our salary into the pension system, and we don't collect SS. I will be mad as hell if I serve my community for 25 years and don't get the pension I was contractually promised and payed into. Just like I will be mad as hell if I don't get my .mil retirement. So because people may have agreed to unconscionable and possibly corrupt contracts, we're on the hook for them? |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 5:40:57 AM EDT
[#15]
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Does the fact it happens ALL THE TIME!!!11 make it okay? It's amazing how people have become so nonchalant about fucking peoples lives over. Politicians be like, "Meh, don't worry about those Cops and Firefighters, defaulting on pensions happens all the time in the private sector, its only fair if it happens to them too..." And people buy this shit and feel good about their shitty 401k and benefits again, all the while the real crooks are laughing their way to the bank. Have you not realized that life is not fair yet? |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:15:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A pension payment. As in just one. Then what? Quote HistoryQuoted: property tax increase in modern Chicago history to raise enough money to make a major pension payment for police and firefighters next year A pension payment. As in just one. Then what? |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:21:50 AM EDT
[#17]
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So because people may have agreed to unconscionable and possibly corrupt contracts, we're on the hook for them? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That said in my FD we pay 7% of our salary into the pension system, and we don't collect SS. I will be mad as hell if I serve my community for 25 years and don't get the pension I was contractually promised and payed into. Just like I will be mad as hell if I don't get my .mil retirement. So because people may have agreed to unconscionable and possibly corrupt contracts, we're on the hook for them? 
Unconscionable and corrupt? Drama lama much
Police and Fire pensions are workable. The city simply has to contribute the money to the pension fund at the time the employee earns it...not wait until 20 years later and try to come up with the total out of tax money. Given time and compounding interest, it is absolutely workable. The issues is that the city in most cases, fails to actually put the money in the bank and let it work...they instead spend it on dog parks, welfare projects, ghetto housing, or my personal fav....the "blue suede brigade" back in Memphis where they literally poured money into the ghettos with no results. There is plenty of money. It is a question of where they choose to spend the money. gov jobs pay less and often suck...but the benefit is a pension at the end. It is delayed compensation. Were it not for that delayed compensation, the total compensation package would be laughable...as in not even remotely a job that any intelligent person would consider. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:22:48 AM EDT
[#18]
The entitlement is strong in this thread. We need a 50% cut in ALL levels of govt, just as a down payment. Nothing can be off the table. Im career mil so Ive got skin in the game, reality is a harsh mistress.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:27:54 AM EDT
[#19]
No more heinous crime than theft by politicians and union thugs via contract.
Fuck public employee unions. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:28:56 AM EDT
[#20]
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The entitlement is strong in this thread. We need a 50% cut in ALL levels of govt, just as a down payment. Nothing can be off the table. Im career mil so Ive got skin in the game, reality is a harsh mistress. Blanket cuts are for idiots. Anything done across the whole of gov is thoughtless and will cause more problems than it solves. Want to cut? Great, lets start by eliminating entire agencies...like the US Institute for Peace. Cut that, sell their buildings. Consolidate federal LE into one parent organization and eliminate duplicate HR systems. Eliminate all of the databases used by each agency and go to one family of IT systems. Things like that work. Blanket cuts are stupid. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:41:13 AM EDT
[#21]
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They promised the cops and firefighters pensions, if it wasn't fiscally responsible to do what they promised, the politicians shouldn't have agreed to it during contract time. It's going to suck for property owners, but at least the politicians aren't bailing on the thousands of cops and firefighters who gave 25 plus years of their lives serving the residents. They should have used the money for what it was MEANT for, instead of for pet projects. Seems kinda stupid to agree to delayed compensation, take money meant to fund it and spend it on social welfare projects, then whine and blame the unions for the now-huge cost of that delayed compenstaion. Imagine that you get hired to construct a house. You are paid a portion of the money up-front, with a promise of the rest after completion. House is built and they move in. When it comes time to pay the rest of the bill, the "homeowner" balks and claims that the money owed is unreasonable and that you (the contractor) are just greedy and shouldn't be paid what was agreed upon -and demands to change the price (or simply refuses to pay). The union/ officers are like the contractor, and the city is like that homeowner. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:44:03 AM EDT
[#22]
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Good. This is now a pension thread where firemen and policemen are more deserving human beings than other people who work for bankrupt entities. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They promised the cops and firefighters pensions, if it wasn't fiscally responsible to so what they promised, the politicians shouldn't have agreed to it during contract time. It's going to suck for property owners, but at least the politicians aren't bailing on the thousands of cops and firefighters who gave 25 plus years of their lives serving the residents. Good. This is now a pension thread where firemen and policemen are more deserving human beings than other people who work for bankrupt entities. Feel free to give up that military benefits package. Or do you somehow feel more equal than others? Always makes me laugh when .mils complain about government, as if their money and benefits materialize out of unicorn farts and wishes. 
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:45:44 AM EDT
[#23]
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Lo It doesn't matter how anyone feels, because: We Can't Pay For It Anymore. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lo Quoted:
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They promised the cops and firefighters pensions, if it wasn't fiscally responsible to so what they promised, the politicians shouldn't have agreed to it during contract time. It's going to suck for property owners, but at least the politicians aren't bailing on the thousands of cops and firefighters who gave 25 plus years of their lives serving the residents. Good. This is now a pension thread where firemen and policemen are more deserving human beings than other people who work for bankrupt entities. So if the feds decide to default on military retirements because "we can't pay for it anymore", would you feel the same way? It doesn't matter how anyone feels, because: We Can't Pay For It Anymore. BUT "we" can pay for whatever it is YOU want.... or you just want police and fire to work for free.... geeze. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:51:58 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you're dumb enough to only have one retirement, you should be smart enough to church up cat food into a meal. Chicago's bond rating is somewhere in the neighborhood of Mexico's, so people believing that they somehow have head of the line privileges at the empty though when the going gets tough is, in the words of the great philosopher Jesus Quintana, "laughable." The only people I'll feel less sympathy for than the rabbit-ear-pants retirees are the people who've bought property there in the last 20 years. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They promised the cops and firefighters pensions, if it wasn't fiscally responsible to so what they promised, the politicians shouldn't have agreed to it during contract time. It's going to suck for property owners, but at least the politicians aren't bailing on the thousands of cops and firefighters who gave 25 plus years of their lives serving the residents. Good. This is now a pension thread where firemen and policemen are more deserving human beings than other people who work for bankrupt entities. So if the feds decide to default on military retirements because "we can't pay for it anymore", would you feel the same way? If you're dumb enough to only have one retirement, you should be smart enough to church up cat food into a meal. Chicago's bond rating is somewhere in the neighborhood of Mexico's, so people believing that they somehow have head of the line privileges at the empty though when the going gets tough is, in the words of the great philosopher Jesus Quintana, "laughable." The only people I'll feel less sympathy for than the rabbit-ear-pants retirees are the people who've bought property there in the last 20 years. Sooo.... I work one job (cop) with a retirement plan. Because of lack of funding, I barely make enough to pay my bills. I'm not allowed to simply get a second job (has to be vetted and approved before I'm allowed to work anywhere other than the PD). So I work the occasional overtime (where money is taken out for retirement). How, exactly, do I have a second retirement? Oh, and full retirement here is 32 years. Edited...VA-gunnut |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 6:55:26 AM EDT
[#25]
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Because when I think "great city services" I think "Chicago Police Department" and "Chicago Public Schools." Two fine pillars of public service. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I am all for lower taxes, but right now you sound like a democrat, you want great city services but you don't want to pay for it. Because when I think "great city services" I think "Chicago Police Department" and "Chicago Public Schools." Two fine pillars of public service. Look at what they have to work with.... It'd be like telling a Marine DI to make model Marines out of a bunch of gangbangers and liberals WITHOUT hurting their feelz or offending them. Think about it.... |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:03:14 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Edited...VA-gunnut I'm so glad that the new rules in GD only flow one way. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:05:44 AM EDT
[#27]
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So you find some way to make the pensions transferrable without it being the dice roll a 401K is My pension has accrued time from 4 different jobs in it If a state can figure it out, so can private employers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you know a company you're willing to make a 40 year bet on, with no real option to opt out? I'm not feeling it. People can make the argument that Chicago will be around in 40 years, but how about saying in 1970 that companies like NCR, Lehman Brothers, or GM would be bankrupt in 40 years? So you find some way to make the pensions transferrable without it being the dice roll a 401K is My pension has accrued time from 4 different jobs in it If a state can figure it out, so can private employers. Your "accrual" is paper fiction. The money you think is owed to you prob doesn't even exist. States "figure it out" by hiking taxes when the payout exceeds funds, a phenomenon which is becoming increasingly common. Further, pensions are supposed to be funded via a managed portfolio anyway, so the difference with "defined benefits" is that tax payers' are forced to bail out the (inevitable) accounting shortfall. Pensions are a phony no-risk promise, which is a lie. Risk is unavoidable. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:08:57 AM EDT
[#28]
Pensions were part of the deal,pay up.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:13:07 AM EDT
[#29]
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All government pensions need to go to the same 401k system we in the private sector use. Just.... no. That would ALSO mean that employment rights would have to go the way of the private sector. It would have been a LOT more beneficial to me if my permanent disability had been caused at a private employers rather than my public agency. Oh, and 401K has been proven to be MORE costly to larger organizations than defined-benefits programs (Boston College did an excellent study... funny thing was they were trying to prove the superiority of the 401K and failed). Really, you don't understand the difference between public and private employment at all. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:14:11 AM EDT
[#30]
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I guess reducing cost ,and cutting wages of exsiting employees is too much. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile How about force the business you work for (or maybe own) to cut prices to take the economic strain off of the poor customers??? |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:14:20 AM EDT
[#31]
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All government pensions need to go to the same 401k system we in the private sector use.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:15:40 AM EDT
[#32]
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When you defer payments for years it eventually bites you in the ass No The 401K was never intended to be a primary retirement account when it was created. You guys in the private sector are being screwed and you're boasting about it Quote HistoryQuoted:
When you defer payments for years it eventually bites you in the ass Quoted:
All government pensions need to go to the same 401k system we in the private sector use. No The 401K was never intended to be a primary retirement account when it was created. You guys in the private sector are being screwed and you're boasting about it They aren't as smart as they think they are. And yes, they are bragging about getting shitted on. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:19:47 AM EDT
[#33]
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Want cops and firefighters who get paid like McDonalds employees? Go live down south. Not knocking my brothers to the south, but in the long run you get what you pay for. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They promised the cops and firefighters pensions, if it wasn't fiscally responsible to do what they promised, the politicians shouldn't have agreed to it during contract time. It's going to suck for property owners, but at least the politicians aren't bailing on the thousands of cops and firefighters who gave 25 plus years of their lives serving the residents. Politicians lie about pensions they cannot hope to pay for and the voters choose to believe the lie. Tell me how this ends well. It doesn't. What I am saying is raising taxes is sometimes necessary and right because you promised to pay for shit. It doesn't mean it will make you and I the taxpayer happy, and some politicians will hopefully lose their job over it, but its the right thing for a responsible government to do. When you redo the retirement system and balance the budget you lower taxes again. I am all for lower taxes, but right now you sound like a democrat, you want great city services but you don't want to pay for it. I do not want great city services, I want all cities to live within their means. Pension promises are worth the paper they are written on. IOW, not much. You place too much faith on future politicians lowering taxes at some unspecified date. Does not happen. Chicago Area School District students scored an average of 17 on the ACT, the facility and staff averaged a 19. IOW, you have below average facility and staff teaching students who are even more below average. Chicago is a dead man walking, as are most of our Metropolitan areas. Want cops and firefighters who get paid like McDonalds employees? Go live down south. Not knocking my brothers to the south, but in the long run you get what you pay for. Yep. I've actually paid for almost all of my advanced training, and gone into debt a little to do it. But my quality of work is unquestioned. And all on a wage that most here would consider unlivable in the private sector. Not looking to be rich, but I don't want to be on welfare when I'm old, either. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:19:54 AM EDT
[#34]
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Does the fact it happens ALL THE TIME!!!11 make it okay? It's amazing how people have become so nonchalant about fucking peoples lives over. Politicians be like, "Meh, don't worry about those Cops and Firefighters, defaulting on pensions happens all the time in the private sector, its only fair if it happens to them too..." And people buy this shit and feel good about their shitty 401k and benefits again, all the while the real crooks are laughing their way to the bank. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It would be like hiring someone to do work on your house with financing, paying them during the job then saying "oops, ran out of money, sorry!" When they got done. That happens ALL THE TIME. Contracts can and do get broken, ALL THE TIME. The fact that you've got a contract with a bankrupt entity doesn't magically give you the right to be made whole in front of all other creditors. The cops and firemen are just another creditor to the State of Illinois and the City of Chicago. Frankly, I just don't have much sympathy, because the trajectory of both places has been apparent for a decade or longer. The generous pension opportunities in Illinois are and weren't free. Everyone just thought they were just a tiny tax hike from getting fixed. Does the fact it happens ALL THE TIME!!!11 make it okay? It's amazing how people have become so nonchalant about fucking peoples lives over. Politicians be like, "Meh, don't worry about those Cops and Firefighters, defaulting on pensions happens all the time in the private sector, its only fair if it happens to them too..." And people buy this shit and feel good about their shitty 401k and benefits again, all the while the real crooks are laughing their way to the bank. It's simple: you all rewarded yourselves with a deal without paying consideration as to whether it could possibly be covered. The avg. Joe tax payer can not practically keep on top of the insider dealings that go on between unions & city mgrs., & if you think that Joe tax payer is going to sit there & live in austerity so you can collect the "promise" that was quietly cooked up sans financial accounting sense, then, don't bitch when IOU notes start replacing deposit checks. Only thing that matters is the accounting balance sheet. Feels & promises are irrelevant. You "feel" you deserve what you want? Too bad. Welcome to the cold, cruel world. It ain't kind. It ain't fair. Doesn't even matter if it's right, or if it's wrong. It's just there. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:24:05 AM EDT
[#35]
Good. Fuck shitcago. If nothing good and everything bad in the world happens to that shit hole, I will be happy. Just desserts for giving us FBHO.
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:30:08 AM EDT
[#36]
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Most of 'them' aren't paying any property tax. Owners of rentals and homeowners pay it and will just move. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He needs to quit doing this stuff, because it just makes more of them move up here. Most of 'them' aren't paying any property tax. Owners of rentals and homeowners pay it and will just move. Just going to screw the hell out of the small segment of the population left holding Chicago together, and Police and Firefighters should have known the risk of putting their faith in Chicago's government. It is sad but their pension plans need to collapse rather than punish generations of 10's of 1000s other people for Chicago government failure and their own lack of foresight. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:31:47 AM EDT
[#37]
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So if the feds decide to default on military retirements because "we can't pay for it anymore", would you feel the same way? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They promised the cops and firefighters pensions, if it wasn't fiscally responsible to so what they promised, the politicians shouldn't have agreed to it during contract time. It's going to suck for property owners, but at least the politicians aren't bailing on the thousands of cops and firefighters who gave 25 plus years of their lives serving the residents. Good. This is now a pension thread where firemen and policemen are more deserving human beings than other people who work for bankrupt entities. So if the feds decide to default on military retirements because "we can't pay for it anymore", would you feel the same way? No. Because DoD is about 20% of the federal budget. and a good portion of that is corporate pork. It is public services that is about 90% of the local and state budgets. DoD won't be the ones that break .gov. Public services will be what breaks the cities and states. one is causitive. and compare DoD retirements with Police/Fire/Teacher retirements. Apples to aircraft carrier comparison. never mind the union angle. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:32:18 AM EDT
[#38]
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All government pensions need to go to the same 401k system we in the private sector use. absolutely agreed. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:35:06 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
absolutely agreed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All government pensions need to go to the same 401k system we in the private sector use. absolutely agreed. Wholeheartedly, take it out of the government's pilfering corrupt hands! |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:35:55 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you find some way to make the pensions transferrable without it being the dice roll a 401K is My pension has accrued time from 4 different jobs in it If a state can figure it out, so can private employers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you know a company you're willing to make a 40 year bet on, with no real option to opt out? I'm not feeling it. People can make the argument that Chicago will be around in 40 years, but how about saying in 1970 that companies like NCR, Lehman Brothers, or GM would be bankrupt in 40 years? So you find some way to make the pensions transferrable without it being the dice roll a 401K is My pension has accrued time from 4 different jobs in it If a state can figure it out, so can private employers. Ah. The state will provide! ITs funny how everybody hates communism, until its their pocket getting filled with their neighbors' money. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:40:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unconscionable and corrupt? Drama lama much Police and Fire pensions are workable. The city simply has to contribute the money to the pension fund at the time the employee earns it...not wait until 20 years later and try to come up with the total out of tax money. Given time and compounding interest, it is absolutely workable. The issues is that the city in most cases, fails to actually put the money in the bank and let it work...they instead spend it on dog parks, welfare projects, ghetto housing, or my personal fav....the "blue suede brigade" back in Memphis where they literally poured money into the ghettos with no results. There is plenty of money. It is a question of where they choose to spend the money. gov jobs pay less and often suck...but the benefit is a pension at the end. It is delayed compensation. Were it not for that delayed compensation, the total compensation package would be laughable...as in not even remotely a job that any intelligent person would consider. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That said in my FD we pay 7% of our salary into the pension system, and we don't collect SS. I will be mad as hell if I serve my community for 25 years and don't get the pension I was contractually promised and payed into. Just like I will be mad as hell if I don't get my .mil retirement. So because people may have agreed to unconscionable and possibly corrupt contracts, we're on the hook for them? Unconscionable and corrupt? Drama lama much Police and Fire pensions are workable. The city simply has to contribute the money to the pension fund at the time the employee earns it...not wait until 20 years later and try to come up with the total out of tax money. Given time and compounding interest, it is absolutely workable. The issues is that the city in most cases, fails to actually put the money in the bank and let it work...they instead spend it on dog parks, welfare projects, ghetto housing, or my personal fav....the "blue suede brigade" back in Memphis where they literally poured money into the ghettos with no results. There is plenty of money. It is a question of where they choose to spend the money. gov jobs pay less and often suck...but the benefit is a pension at the end. It is delayed compensation. Were it not for that delayed compensation, the total compensation package would be laughable...as in not even remotely a job that any intelligent person would consider. Yes, many defined pensions and increases are attempts at bloc vote buying using taxpayer money. Most defined benefit pensions are based on unrealistic growth projections. Sorry, but that money doesn't get to escape the laws of economic downturns. When cities and companies are paying more for retirees than services and core business functions the model starts to implode on itself - several examples to look at. There really is no secret obama stash or "plenty of money". Defined contribution benefits are the only viable long term plans that make any economic sense. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:41:06 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see a federal bail out in chicago's future... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The Dept of Education has been quietly kicking them about $1 billion per year and the school budget in Chicago is still fucked. 
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:43:31 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All government pensions need to go to the same 401k system we in the private sector use. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:46:08 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Amen, no one in the real world has a traditional pension Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All government pensions need to go to the same 401k system we in the private sector use. The fedgov has had a 401(k) system, TSP, since 1986. The state and local governments just thought they could keep the gravy train going for the decades since. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:46:29 AM EDT
[#45]
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The entitlement is strong in this thread. We need a 50% cut in ALL levels of govt, just as a down payment. Nothing can be off the table. Im career mil so Ive got skin in the game, reality is a harsh mistress. That's an unworkable suggestion. Try harder |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:47:04 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Amen, no one in the real world has a traditional pension Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All government pensions need to go to the same 401k system we in the private sector use. I'm sitting on a pretty nice government pension, and it sucks. You know why? Because it is hitting home its not my money. Its the governments'. You know what happens when I die? Thats it, money is gone. Nothing for my family. Thanks for playing. With investments I own that money. I can give it to my wife. To my kids. I can do anything with it. Its my fucking money. BUt a pension? A pension simply makes you a slave to the company you work for. From the first day you show up till your dying breath that company fucking owns you. and if you want that from anybody, whether a company or a government, you are a communist who just hasn't figured it out yet. |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:47:14 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. Because DoD is about 20% of the federal budget. and a good portion of that is corporate pork. It is public services that is about 90% of the local and state budgets. DoD won't be the ones that break .gov. Public services will be what breaks the cities and states. one is causitive. and compare DoD retirements with Police/Fire/Teacher retirements. Apples to aircraft carrier comparison. never mind the union angle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They promised the cops and firefighters pensions, if it wasn't fiscally responsible to so what they promised, the politicians shouldn't have agreed to it during contract time. It's going to suck for property owners, but at least the politicians aren't bailing on the thousands of cops and firefighters who gave 25 plus years of their lives serving the residents. Good. This is now a pension thread where firemen and policemen are more deserving human beings than other people who work for bankrupt entities. So if the feds decide to default on military retirements because "we can't pay for it anymore", would you feel the same way? No. Because DoD is about 20% of the federal budget. and a good portion of that is corporate pork. It is public services that is about 90% of the local and state budgets. DoD won't be the ones that break .gov. Public services will be what breaks the cities and states. one is causitive. and compare DoD retirements with Police/Fire/Teacher retirements. Apples to aircraft carrier comparison. never mind the union angle. Getting a .gov is sadly the holy grail in much of upstate N.y. I know people who have left their own farms, gas stations and other businesses to take .gov jobs. I know several attorneys who have closed their practices to take .gov lawyer jobs |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:47:38 AM EDT
[#48]
Serious question: what did they base the rate of return on the for pension system? 10% or something retarded like that? Have they ever changed it, or do they just keep going, "the market will come back and we'll get x% THIS year!"
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:51:38 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sitting on a pretty nice government pension, and it sucks. You know why? Because it is hitting home its not my money. Its the governments'. You know what happens when I die? Thats it, money is gone. Nothing for my family. Thanks for playing. With investments I own that money. I can give it to my wife. To my kids. I can do anything with it. Its my fucking money. BUt a pension? A pension simply makes you a slave to the company you work for. From the first day you show up till your dying breath that company fucking owns you. and if you want that from anybody, whether a company or a government, you are a communist who just hasn't figured it out yet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
All government pensions need to go to the same 401k system we in the private sector use. I'm sitting on a pretty nice government pension, and it sucks. You know why? Because it is hitting home its not my money. Its the governments'. You know what happens when I die? Thats it, money is gone. Nothing for my family. Thanks for playing. With investments I own that money. I can give it to my wife. To my kids. I can do anything with it. Its my fucking money. BUt a pension? A pension simply makes you a slave to the company you work for. From the first day you show up till your dying breath that company fucking owns you. and if you want that from anybody, whether a company or a government, you are a communist who just hasn't figured it out yet. That's not entirely true, but it's a good point. Even if your pension is worth $5M over the next 40 years, and it probably is, if you get hit by a bus it's worth jack and shit. http://www.dfas.mil/retiredmilitary/provide/sbp.html |
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Posted: 9/4/2015 7:51:54 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your "accrual" is paper fiction. The money you think is owed to you prob doesn't even exist. States "figure it out" by hiking taxes when the payout exceeds funds, a phenomenon which is becoming increasingly common. Further, pensions are supposed to be funded via a managed portfolio anyway, so the difference with "defined benefits" is that tax payers' are forced to bail out the (inevitable) accounting shortfall. Pensions are a phony no-risk promise, which is a lie. Risk is unavoidable. If the plans are run well there is no fiction. NYs is among the best, it can be done if the plan is run properly It is too bad that other places have mangled their systems, but the common denominator seems to have been that the employees paid their portion but the employers granted themselves a pension holiday. I don't trust any of the anti-pension posters who bleat that "it can't be done". All they're trying to do is cut government in the wrong places |
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