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Posted: 7/24/2014 1:38:41 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
 Is hitting clays with an AR as hard as it looks?Quote HistoryIt is a lot easier than effectively using a shotgun at 150yds. 
Limited range guns are somewhat limited. 
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Posted: 7/24/2014 1:45:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is a lot easier than effectively using a shotgun at 150yds.
Limited range guns are somewhat limited. Quote HistoryQuoted:
It is a lot easier than effectively using a shotgun at 150yds.
Limited range guns are somewhat limited. your highly effective use of emoticons convinced me. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 1:47:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which would you rather put in a bad guy..... A 5.56mm hole, or a hole half the size of your fist? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The shotgun does not win on every point and inside the house you are not going to get a big spread but a hole half the size of your fist. Which would you rather put in a bad guy..... A 5.56mm hole, or a hole half the size of your fist? I have also said on this site that if I had one round only make it 12GA 00 buck because I have seen the devastation on the human body first hand. That being said my carbine is lighter, more maneuverable, higher rate of fire and four times the magazine capacity with faster reloads. If I was given a shotgun only for home defense I would not feel underguned because I know how to run one and I know what it will do to another human being. Given my choice I will take an M4 type carbine because I can run it in my sleep and out of the two it is the better choice but a shotgun is not a wrong choice. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 1:51:11 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have also said on this site that if I had one round only make it 12GA 00 buck because I have seen the devastation on the human body first hand. That being said my carbine is lighter, more maneuverable, higher rate of fire and four times the magazine capacity with faster reloads. If I was given a shotgun only for home defense I would not feel underguned because I know how to run one and I know what it will do to another human being. Given my choice I will take an M4 type carbine because I can run it in my sleep and out of the two it is the better choice but a shotgun is not a wrong choice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: The shotgun does not win on every point and inside the house you are not going to get a big spread but a hole half the size of your fist. Which would you rather put in a bad guy..... A 5.56mm hole, or a hole half the size of your fist? I have also said on this site that if I had one round only make it 12GA 00 buck because I have seen the devastation on the human body first hand. That being said my carbine is lighter, more maneuverable, higher rate of fire and four times the magazine capacity with faster reloads. If I was given a shotgun only for home defense I would not feel underguned because I know how to run one and I know what it will do to another human being. Given my choice I will take an M4 type carbine because I can run it in my sleep and out of the two it is the better choice but a shotgun is not a wrong choice. You mean there is more that goes into a firearm than sheer wounding potential? That making nasty autopsy photos shouldn't be my sole deciding factor in a self defense weapon? Utterly shocking! |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 1:52:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Carbine beats shotgun in everything but price, but it's way closer these days when you can get a decent AR for $5-600.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 1:52:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Half the size of my fist with 9 - 24 projectiles per trigger pull looks better to me than 1 .22 hole ..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have argued on this site before that both are fine for home defense and I have shotgun in my pantry but my AR is my go to weapon. The shotgun does not win on every point and inside the house you are not going to get a big spread but a hole half the size of your fist. Half the size of my fist with 9 - 24 projectiles per trigger pull looks better to me than 1 .22 hole ..... The damage on the inside is not a .22 hole. And controlled pairs are very effective. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 1:55:26 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh , please, please OP , start a caliber debate too. We need another one of those threads too.  9mm > .45 That's a fact. There really isn't any debate to it. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 1:57:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
if you're going to use a carbine atleast use a real bullet. 300 blk or 7.62x39 FTW. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have argued on this site before that both are fine for home defense and I have shotgun in my pantry but my AR is my go to weapon. The shotgun does not win on every point and inside the house you are not going to get a big spread but a hole half the size of your fist. Half the size of my fist with 9 - 24 projectiles per trigger pull looks better to me than 1 .22 hole ..... One .22 (to start) hole through a bad guys skull or heart and spinal cord looks better to me than a bunch of holes somewhere in the bad guy and whatever was around him. if you're going to use a carbine atleast use a real bullet. 300 blk or 7.62x39 FTW. Trust me especially at close range 5.56mm is much more effective. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 1:58:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
your highly effective use of emoticons convinced me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It is a lot easier than effectively using a shotgun at 150yds.
Limited range guns are somewhat limited. your highly effective use of emoticons convinced me. Darn I thought it would be that Clays video. You shotgun fellows are hard to figure. Anyhow, here's your sign. 
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Posted: 7/24/2014 1:58:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: so many strawmen, gunshop myths, and opinions when faced with actual tests people have done. i mean come on, at least say 'i could use slugs instead' or some other legitimate argument but damn. so, for shits and giggles, who uses what?  |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:00:23 PM EDT
[#11]
what I use for HD depends on which room I'm in at the time trouble comes calling.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:01:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
this thread needs more little ponies The shotgun hate here is amazing. It's not our fault the barrel is so much bigger and more satisfying Yes, but we're talking about shooting, not shoving them up our asses. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:04:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Meh. Whatever you're proficient with. Both will work.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:12:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, but we're talking about shooting, not shoving them up our asses. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
this thread needs more little ponies The shotgun hate here is amazing. It's not our fault the barrel is so much bigger and more satisfying Yes, but we're talking about shooting, not shoving them up our asses.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:18:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
9mm > .45 That's a fact. There really isn't any debate to it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Oh , please, please OP , start a caliber debate too. We need another one of those threads too. 9mm > .45 That's a fact. There really isn't any debate to it. I'm on board with this. No sane person can say .45 is better than 9mm. Don't even try and bring .40 into the equation either. 9mm > .45 > tickle attack > shitting yourself > .40. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:19:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have also said on this site that if I had one round only make it 12GA 00 buck because I have seen the devastation on the human body first hand. That being said my carbine is lighter, more maneuverable, higher rate of fire and four times the magazine capacity with faster reloads. If I was given a shotgun only for home defense I would not feel underguned because I know how to run one and I know what it will do to another human being. Given my choice I will take an M4 type carbine because I can run it in my sleep and out of the two it is the better choice but a shotgun is not a wrong choice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: The shotgun does not win on every point and inside the house you are not going to get a big spread but a hole half the size of your fist. Which would you rather put in a bad guy..... A 5.56mm hole, or a hole half the size of your fist? I have also said on this site that if I had one round only make it 12GA 00 buck because I have seen the devastation on the human body first hand. That being said my carbine is lighter, more maneuverable, higher rate of fire and four times the magazine capacity with faster reloads. If I was given a shotgun only for home defense I would not feel underguned because I know how to run one and I know what it will do to another human being. Given my choice I will take an M4 type carbine because I can run it in my sleep and out of the two it is the better choice but a shotgun is not a wrong choice. You pull the trigger once, you launch one 5.56mm projectile. I pull the trigger once, I launch fifteen 8.38mm projectiles. Let's do a little math ...... Semi-Auto Carbine with 30 round magazine ...... 30 trigger pulls - Thirty (30) 5.56mm projectiles down range 12 Ga Pump Shotgun 3" Chamber 00 Buck ...... 5 trigger pulls - Seventy Five (75) 8.38mm projectiles down range ( 5 shot ) With an extended 8 shot tube it would be 120 Bring in a semi-auto shotgun and it gets even more fun! Now if the bad guy is running away from me and is 150 meters away, the rifle would be better. But let's be honest, if he is 150 meters from you and running away ..... he isn't much of a threat, now is he? For home defense the shotgun wins. For defending your neighbors house maybe that carbine. It's all about the right tool for the job. In the house ...... 870/12ga and 1911/.45 ACP |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:20:40 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm on board with this. No sane person can say .45 is better than 9mm. Don't even try and bring .40 into the equation either. 9mm > .45 > tickle attack > shitting yourself > .40. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Oh , please, please OP , start a caliber debate too. We need another one of those threads too. 9mm > .45 That's a fact. There really isn't any debate to it. I'm on board with this. No sane person can say .45 is better than 9mm. Don't even try and bring .40 into the equation either. 9mm > .45 > tickle attack > shitting yourself > .40. You have no idea how close I was to typing: 9mm>45>.380>22lr>6mm airsoft>???>.40 |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:26:28 PM EDT
[#18]
The dumbest thing about people who talk up the shotgun pump racking sound is a rifle makes a pretty damn similar sound and it's not like a would be burglar is gonna know the difference and even if they did they're not gonna go "oh it's only an AR-15 and not a shotgun, I'm safe!"
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:28:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You pull the trigger once, you launch one 5.56mm projectile. I pull the trigger once, I launch fifteen 8.38mm projectiles. Let's do a little math ...... Semi-Auto Carbine with 30 round magazine ...... 30 trigger pulls - Thirty (30) 5.56mm projectiles down range 12 Ga Pump Shotgun 3" Chamber 00 Buck ...... 5 trigger pulls - Seventy Five (75) 8.38mm projectiles down range ( 5 shot ) With an extended 8 shot tube it would be 120 Bring in a semi-auto shotgun and it gets even more fun! Now if the bad guy is running away from me and is 150 meters away, the rifle would be better. But let's be honest, if he is 150 meters from you and running away ..... he isn't much of a threat, now is he? For home defense the shotgun wins. For defending your neighbors house maybe that carbine. It's all about the right tool for the job. In the house ...... 870/12ga and 1911/.45 ACP Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The shotgun does not win on every point and inside the house you are not going to get a big spread but a hole half the size of your fist. Which would you rather put in a bad guy..... A 5.56mm hole, or a hole half the size of your fist? I have also said on this site that if I had one round only make it 12GA 00 buck because I have seen the devastation on the human body first hand. That being said my carbine is lighter, more maneuverable, higher rate of fire and four times the magazine capacity with faster reloads. If I was given a shotgun only for home defense I would not feel underguned because I know how to run one and I know what it will do to another human being. Given my choice I will take an M4 type carbine because I can run it in my sleep and out of the two it is the better choice but a shotgun is not a wrong choice. You pull the trigger once, you launch one 5.56mm projectile. I pull the trigger once, I launch fifteen 8.38mm projectiles. Let's do a little math ...... Semi-Auto Carbine with 30 round magazine ...... 30 trigger pulls - Thirty (30) 5.56mm projectiles down range 12 Ga Pump Shotgun 3" Chamber 00 Buck ...... 5 trigger pulls - Seventy Five (75) 8.38mm projectiles down range ( 5 shot ) With an extended 8 shot tube it would be 120 Bring in a semi-auto shotgun and it gets even more fun! Now if the bad guy is running away from me and is 150 meters away, the rifle would be better. But let's be honest, if he is 150 meters from you and running away ..... he isn't much of a threat, now is he? For home defense the shotgun wins. For defending your neighbors house maybe that carbine. It's all about the right tool for the job. In the house ...... 870/12ga and 1911/.45 ACP |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:29:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You pull the trigger once, you launch one 5.56mm projectile. I pull the trigger once, I launch fifteen 8.38mm projectiles. Let's do a little math ...... Semi-Auto Carbine with 30 round magazine ...... 30 trigger pulls - Thirty (30) 5.56mm projectiles down range 12 Ga Pump Shotgun 3" Chamber 00 Buck ...... 5 trigger pulls - Seventy Five (75) 8.38mm projectiles down range ( 5 shot ) With an extended 8 shot tube it would be 120 Bring in a semi-auto shotgun and it gets even more fun! Now if the bad guy is running away from me and is 150 meters away, the rifle would be better. But let's be honest, if he is 150 meters from you and running away ..... he isn't much of a threat, now is he? For home defense the shotgun wins. For defending your neighbors house maybe that carbine. It's all about the right tool for the job. In the house ...... 870/12ga and 1911/.45 ACP Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: The shotgun does not win on every point and inside the house you are not going to get a big spread but a hole half the size of your fist. Which would you rather put in a bad guy..... A 5.56mm hole, or a hole half the size of your fist? I have also said on this site that if I had one round only make it 12GA 00 buck because I have seen the devastation on the human body first hand. That being said my carbine is lighter, more maneuverable, higher rate of fire and four times the magazine capacity with faster reloads. If I was given a shotgun only for home defense I would not feel underguned because I know how to run one and I know what it will do to another human being. Given my choice I will take an M4 type carbine because I can run it in my sleep and out of the two it is the better choice but a shotgun is not a wrong choice. You pull the trigger once, you launch one 5.56mm projectile. I pull the trigger once, I launch fifteen 8.38mm projectiles. Let's do a little math ...... Semi-Auto Carbine with 30 round magazine ...... 30 trigger pulls - Thirty (30) 5.56mm projectiles down range 12 Ga Pump Shotgun 3" Chamber 00 Buck ...... 5 trigger pulls - Seventy Five (75) 8.38mm projectiles down range ( 5 shot ) With an extended 8 shot tube it would be 120 Bring in a semi-auto shotgun and it gets even more fun! Now if the bad guy is running away from me and is 150 meters away, the rifle would be better. But let's be honest, if he is 150 meters from you and running away ..... he isn't much of a threat, now is he? For home defense the shotgun wins. For defending your neighbors house maybe that carbine. It's all about the right tool for the job. In the house ...... 870/12ga and 1911/.45 ACP Ok. You tag the guy. He goes down screaming. His heretofore unseen buddies, launch a fusilade at you. You dive behind cover. You are now in a gunfight against 1) Unknown number of assailants 2) unknown number and type of weapons 3) indeterminate time until help arrives, if you managed to call 911 or neighbors hear the commotion. You have at most 7 rounds left without a reload. What is your next move? |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:30:10 PM EDT
[#21]
As much as I like my ar, I prefer this size hole in a BG inside my house.
Federal #1 for the win |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:33:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not trying to defend my home from the chinese/russians/isis calipahte. just methnecks. Oddly enough AR's are equally adept at convincing methneck to stop whetever it is you want them to stop doing. The logic of "erh mah gerd I'm not being attacked by speztnez" is, frankly, idodic. The badguy gets a vote in the matter. In some cases its bad guys. Even two tweeked up tweakers could present a scenario where a shotgun would run dry quickly. Obviously a shotgun can be used to defend oneself. It can be used successfully in most cases. All that many of us is saying is that the AR offers many unique advantages. For somereason this causes many pro-shotgun types to lose their shit. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:33:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The facts that one can put 5 placed rounds center mass in the time it takes to shoot and cycle a pump action shotgun. Never depend on the bad guy staying still. More holes are better than one. I don't care how big. I voted my rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I like to see what could compete against a 12 gauge, 330 grain slug traveling at a velocity of 1900 fps with an Energy load of 2600 foot pounds. The facts that one can put 5 placed rounds center mass in the time it takes to shoot and cycle a pump action shotgun. Never depend on the bad guy staying still. More holes are better than one. I don't care how big. I voted my rifle. I'm no math wizz, but wouldn't that mean you have to have .05 splits to fire 5 times to my once? |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:34:29 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If anyone is interested in learning: What Is the Best Weapon for Home Defense, A Serious Discussion While I respect your opinion greatly, that article seems to be biased in favor of AR15's. Several of the "Cons" listed for shotguns are a result of lack of weapon familiarity, they are easily mitigated and not a deficiency of shotguns. A novice shooter could easily "short stroke" an AR15 or commit other manipulation errors; being prepared to defend oneself necessitates being familiar with the tools at hand. Recoil is correctable with training, ammo selection or equipment (i.e recoil stock, autoloader). Shotguns, unlike just about any other centerfire caliber, do have the potential to be rendered ineffective by inadequate ammo but that is a consequence of the platform's versatility and not a deficiency per se, which again can be easily mitigated by education. Shot precision/accuracy is a canard; at the ranges where home defense comes into play anyone who can make a COM shot with an AR can make a COM shot with a shotgun. There will not be a blunderbuss type wall of pellets flying out of the barrel, at home defense ranges the dispersion of pellets will be minimal, that is a fact. The mythical "hostage rescue" shot argument is just silly and so unlikely as to not be relevant to the discussion, home defense situations are not going to be resolved by double taps between the eyes unless you are a Navy SEAL or Jerry Miculek. To the issue of ammo capacity/reload speed, while I do not have empirical data at hand for home defense even police statistics show most gunfights are resolved in 2-3 shots. Obviously more capacity is better than less, but a 7 round capacity shotgun not low enough to entirely discount it from consideration. Again, while I wouldn't fault anyone for using an AR, I just don't get why a forum that debates about most effective bullet weights and calibers is so dismissive of a cheap, stupidly simple platform that can fire an entire AR mag's worth of rounds in two pulls of the trigger. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:37:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Again, while I wouldn't fault anyone for using an AR, I just don't get why a forum that debates about most effective bullet weights and calibers is so dismissive of a cheap, stupidly simple platform that can fire an entire AR mag's worth of rounds in two pulls of the trigger. Just because it fires that many pellets doesn't mean that they are traveling at the same velocity with the same energy and potential for devastation as quality 5.56 loadings. I know it's an exaggeration, but 1 round of birdshot will fire 10 mags worth of rounds into a bad guy. It still doesn't mean it will effectively stop him (which it obviously wont). |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:39:03 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oddly enough AR's are equally adept at convincing methneck to stop whetever it is you want them to stop doing. Wrong.  |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:43:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While I respect your opinion greatly, that article seems to be biased in favor of AR15's. Several of the "Cons" listed for shotguns are a result of lack of weapon familiarity, they are easily mitigated and not a deficiency of shotguns. A novice shooter could easily "short stroke" an AR15 or commit other manipulation errors; being prepared to defend oneself necessitates being familiar with the tools at hand. Recoil is correctable with training, ammo selection or equipment (i.e recoil stock, autoloader). Shotguns, unlike just about any other centerfire caliber, do have the potential to be rendered ineffective by inadequate ammo but that is a consequence of the platform's versatility and not a deficiency per se, which again can be easily mitigated by education. Shot precision/accuracy is a canard; at the ranges where home defense comes into play anyone who can make a COM shot with an AR can make a COM shot with a shotgun. There will not be a blunderbuss type wall of pellets flying out of the barrel, at home defense ranges the dispersion of pellets will be minimal, that is a fact. The mythical "hostage rescue" shot argument is just silly and so unlikely as to not be relevant to the discussion, home defense situations are not going to be resolved by double taps between the eyes unless you are a Navy SEAL or Jerry Miculek. To the issue of ammo capacity/reload speed, while I do not have empirical data at hand for home defense even police statistics show most gunfights are resolved in 2-3 shots. Obviously more capacity is better than less, but a 7 round capacity shotgun not low enough to entirely discount it from consideration. Again, while I wouldn't fault anyone for using an AR, I just don't get why a forum that debates about most effective bullet weights and calibers is so dismissive of a cheap, stupidly simple platform that can fire an entire AR mag's worth of rounds in two pulls of the trigger. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If anyone is interested in learning: What Is the Best Weapon for Home Defense, A Serious Discussion While I respect your opinion greatly, that article seems to be biased in favor of AR15's. Several of the "Cons" listed for shotguns are a result of lack of weapon familiarity, they are easily mitigated and not a deficiency of shotguns. A novice shooter could easily "short stroke" an AR15 or commit other manipulation errors; being prepared to defend oneself necessitates being familiar with the tools at hand. Recoil is correctable with training, ammo selection or equipment (i.e recoil stock, autoloader). Shotguns, unlike just about any other centerfire caliber, do have the potential to be rendered ineffective by inadequate ammo but that is a consequence of the platform's versatility and not a deficiency per se, which again can be easily mitigated by education. Shot precision/accuracy is a canard; at the ranges where home defense comes into play anyone who can make a COM shot with an AR can make a COM shot with a shotgun. There will not be a blunderbuss type wall of pellets flying out of the barrel, at home defense ranges the dispersion of pellets will be minimal, that is a fact. The mythical "hostage rescue" shot argument is just silly and so unlikely as to not be relevant to the discussion, home defense situations are not going to be resolved by double taps between the eyes unless you are a Navy SEAL or Jerry Miculek. To the issue of ammo capacity/reload speed, while I do not have empirical data at hand for home defense even police statistics show most gunfights are resolved in 2-3 shots. Obviously more capacity is better than less, but a 7 round capacity shotgun not low enough to entirely discount it from consideration. Again, while I wouldn't fault anyone for using an AR, I just don't get why a forum that debates about most effective bullet weights and calibers is so dismissive of a cheap, stupidly simple platform that can fire an entire AR mag's worth of rounds in two pulls of the trigger. 
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:44:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: even police statistics show most gunfights are resolved in 2-3 shots. Obviously more capacity is better than less, but a 7 round capacity shotgun not low enough to entirely discount it from consideration.  |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:48:16 PM EDT
[#29]
ITT; shot gun enthusiasts rehash every dumb argument that's been brought up in every shotgun vs rifle thread for the last 4-5 years.
The fact said people think they are shining some new and unique light on the argument is always hilarious. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:49:55 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Think so? What are your split times on a rifle? Mine on my pump gun are .25. I'm no math wizz, but wouldn't that mean you have to have .05 splits to fire 5 times to my once? Not trying to be argumentative, but can you actually hit things that fast with a pump gun? Because that's fucking blistering.... Like world-class fast. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:50:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fact said people think they are shining some new and unique light on the argument is always hilarious. Shut up. You have not even ever used a shotgun.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:51:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not trying to be argumentative, but can you actually hit things that fast with a pump gun? Because that's fucking blistering.... Like world-class fast. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Think so? What are your split times on a rifle? Mine on my pump gun are .25. I'm no math wizz, but wouldn't that mean you have to have .05 splits to fire 5 times to my once? Not trying to be argumentative, but can you actually hit things that fast with a pump gun? Because that's fucking blistering.... Like world-class fast. Mad-cap72 is a world-class dude. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:51:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ITT; shot gun enthusiasts rehash every dumb argument that's been brought up in every shotgun vs rifle thread for the last 4-5 years. The fact said people think they are shining some new and unique light on the argument is always hilarious. Would you want to stand in front of one. Didn't think so.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 2:58:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not trying to be argumentative, but can you actually hit things that fast with a pump gun? Because that's fucking blistering.... Like world-class fast. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Think so? What are your split times on a rifle? Mine on my pump gun are .25. I'm no math wizz, but wouldn't that mean you have to have .05 splits to fire 5 times to my once? Not trying to be argumentative, but can you actually hit things that fast with a pump gun? Because that's fucking blistering.... Like world-class fast. Winchester M12 slamfire FTW. This posts video breakdown.... 1st shot to second shot, normal, no slamfire.. .75 seconds, glacially slow. Second shot to third "fuck it I'll slamfire" .5 seconds. the the beast within takes over and I'm like FUCK THESE PINS 3-4 is .25. Slugs at about 15-17 meters. can't remember the exact distance.  |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 3:02:24 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What do you call it when you mix slugs and buck? That's a fun one. I call it Winchester PDX1, and although I depend on an AR for home defense, I have a Rem 870 Marine loaded up with PDX in the same room. That shit does serious damage. Matter of fact, the shotgun has been my goto for the past 20 years. Pointed it in the face of a drunken bum trying to get in my house in 99. He shit his pants, and left his bike in my front yard. It's been a good reliable friend. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 3:05:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mad-cap72 is a world-class dude. That may indeed be the case. I shot the Rockcastle Shotgun Championship a couple of months ago, about 130 people, among them some of the best 3-gunners in the world, with shotguns modified extensively to be as fast as possible. (I'm just a regular trigger-puller, but I get beaten by some serious talent). We do a 9-target "Captain Morgan" stage every year. 9 stationary clays, arrayed around about 150-160 degrees, about 30 feet or so away. The shooter has one foot on the ground, one foot on has to stay on a cinder block. It's a straight drag race.... Two runs, the shooter keeps the best time. The overall stage winner shot in in 3.48 seconds.... That's .386 splits, and that's with an auto. It was also a fluke, nobody else broke 4 seconds. That's .44 splits, from some very, very good shooters. I shot it with a pump in 6 seconds flat. That's .66 splits, and only one pump gun shooter beat me. .25 splits is crazy fast with a pump shotgun. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 3:05:58 PM EDT
[#37]
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You pull the trigger once, you launch one 5.56mm projectile. I pull the trigger once, I launch fifteen 8.38mm projectiles. Let's do a little math ...... Semi-Auto Carbine with 30 round magazine ...... 30 trigger pulls - Thirty (30) 5.56mm projectiles down range 12 Ga Pump Shotgun 3" Chamber 00 Buck ...... 5 trigger pulls - Seventy Five (75) 8.38mm projectiles down range ( 5 shot ) With an extended 8 shot tube it would be 120 Bring in a semi-auto shotgun and it gets even more fun! Now if the bad guy is running away from me and is 150 meters away, the rifle would be better. But let's be honest, if he is 150 meters from you and running away ..... he isn't much of a threat, now is he? For home defense the shotgun wins. For defending your neighbors house maybe that carbine. It's all about the right tool for the job. In the house ...... 870/12ga and 1911/.45 ACP Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: The shotgun does not win on every point and inside the house you are not going to get a big spread but a hole half the size of your fist. Which would you rather put in a bad guy..... A 5.56mm hole, or a hole half the size of your fist? I have also said on this site that if I had one round only make it 12GA 00 buck because I have seen the devastation on the human body first hand. That being said my carbine is lighter, more maneuverable, higher rate of fire and four times the magazine capacity with faster reloads. If I was given a shotgun only for home defense I would not feel underguned because I know how to run one and I know what it will do to another human being. Given my choice I will take an M4 type carbine because I can run it in my sleep and out of the two it is the better choice but a shotgun is not a wrong choice. You pull the trigger once, you launch one 5.56mm projectile. I pull the trigger once, I launch fifteen 8.38mm projectiles. Let's do a little math ...... Semi-Auto Carbine with 30 round magazine ...... 30 trigger pulls - Thirty (30) 5.56mm projectiles down range 12 Ga Pump Shotgun 3" Chamber 00 Buck ...... 5 trigger pulls - Seventy Five (75) 8.38mm projectiles down range ( 5 shot ) With an extended 8 shot tube it would be 120 Bring in a semi-auto shotgun and it gets even more fun! Now if the bad guy is running away from me and is 150 meters away, the rifle would be better. But let's be honest, if he is 150 meters from you and running away ..... he isn't much of a threat, now is he? For home defense the shotgun wins. For defending your neighbors house maybe that carbine. It's all about the right tool for the job. In the house ...... 870/12ga and 1911/.45 ACP People like you on both sides of this debate do a major disservice to the less informed. Both choices are more than up to the task of defending you and family. If like me and you grew up country and can run an 870 like the back of your hand that is a fine choice to defend the home and family. After 11 years in the army and fighting in Iraq I will take an M4 type carbine. It is the better choice all things being equal. If you know that Mossberg and not a carbine the Mossberg is the best choice. People have to go with what they know the best. All of the people saying if you do not use this or that you are a dumdass they are the ones that are dumbasses, go with what you know. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 3:10:13 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That may indeed be the case. I shot the Rockcastle Shotgun Championship a couple of months ago, about 130 people, among them some of the best 3-gunners in the world, with shotguns modified extensively to be as fast as possible. (I'm just a regular trigger-puller, but I get beaten by some serious talent). We do a 9-target "Captain Morgan" stage every year. 9 stationary clays, arrayed around about 150-160 degrees, about 30 feet or so away. The shooter has one foot on the ground, one foot on has to stay on a cinder block. It's a straight drag race.... Two runs, the shooter keeps the best time. The overall stage winner shot in in 3.48 seconds.... That's .386 splits, and that's with an auto. It was also a fluke, nobody else broke 4 seconds. That's .44 splits, from some very, very good shooters. I shot it with a pump in 6 seconds flat. That's .66 splits, and only one pump gun shooter beat me. .25 splits is crazy fast with a pump shotgun. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Mad-cap72 is a world-class dude. That may indeed be the case. I shot the Rockcastle Shotgun Championship a couple of months ago, about 130 people, among them some of the best 3-gunners in the world, with shotguns modified extensively to be as fast as possible. (I'm just a regular trigger-puller, but I get beaten by some serious talent). We do a 9-target "Captain Morgan" stage every year. 9 stationary clays, arrayed around about 150-160 degrees, about 30 feet or so away. The shooter has one foot on the ground, one foot on has to stay on a cinder block. It's a straight drag race.... Two runs, the shooter keeps the best time. The overall stage winner shot in in 3.48 seconds.... That's .386 splits, and that's with an auto. It was also a fluke, nobody else broke 4 seconds. That's .44 splits, from some very, very good shooters. I shot it with a pump in 6 seconds flat. That's .66 splits, and only one pump gun shooter beat me. .25 splits is crazy fast with a pump shotgun. (Was just using a empty shellbox as an aimpiont, going to speed not accuracy) Also, this was the first time I ever slamfired the gun... |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 3:15:26 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People have to go with what they know the best. All of the people saying if you do not use this or that you are a dumdass they are the ones that are dumbasses, go with what you know.  |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 3:26:36 PM EDT
[#40]
In this thread, we once again learn that training mitigates physical laws,* a round, .33 caliber ball at ~1200 FPS is equal to a fragmenting 5.56 projectile at ~2900 FPS, and preparing for the "best case scenario" home invasion is the way to go.
*Only when applied to a shotgun, nobody has ever trained to any sort of proficiency with an AR15. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 3:31:55 PM EDT
[#41]
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So.... 5 shots in 1.2 seconds with a pump is pretty quick? (Was just using a empty shellbox as an aimpiont, going to speed not accuracy) Well, keep in mind that the stage times I mentioned included reaction to the start signal to the first target from "low ready" and 8 target transition as well. But yeah, for a shotgun that's pretty damn fast.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 3:34:23 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, keep in mind that the stage times I mentioned included reaction to the start signal to the first target from "low ready" and 8 target transition as well. But yeah, for a shotgun that's pretty damn fast. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So.... 5 shots in 1.2 seconds with a pump is pretty quick? (Was just using a empty shellbox as an aimpiont, going to speed not accuracy) Well, keep in mind that the stage times I mentioned included reaction to the start signal to the first target from "low ready" and 8 target transition as well. But yeah, for a shotgun that's pretty damn fast.  The speed of the M12 is countered by it's loading... it's unforgiving to say the least. One goof and it can spit the whole mag out. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 3:48:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: its like a harbor freight 18vt drill vs a makita. yeah the makita will drill a shit load of holes, never wear out, and is bomb proof. but when I only need to hang up some hooks next to the front door the harborfreight drill gets shit done. I'm not trying to defend my home from the chinese/russians/isis calipahte. just methnecks. I'm glad I'm not handicapabled by a HF drill and a shotgun.  |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 3:55:56 PM EDT
[#44]
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Trust me especially at close range 5.56mm is much more effective. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I have argued on this site before that both are fine for home defense and I have shotgun in my pantry but my AR is my go to weapon. The shotgun does not win on every point and inside the house you are not going to get a big spread but a hole half the size of your fist. Half the size of my fist with 9 - 24 projectiles per trigger pull looks better to me than 1 .22 hole ..... One .22 (to start) hole through a bad guys skull or heart and spinal cord looks better to me than a bunch of holes somewhere in the bad guy and whatever was around him. if you're going to use a carbine atleast use a real bullet. 300 blk or 7.62x39 FTW. Trust me especially at close range 5.56mm is much more effective. It's not but keep drinking the 5.56 cool aid I'm turning brass into 300 blk. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 4:04:05 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In this thread, we once again learn that training mitigates physical laws,* a round, .33 caliber ball at ~1200 FPS is equal to a fragmenting 5.56 projectile at ~2900 FPS, and preparing for the "best case scenario" home invasion is the way to go. *Only when applied to a shotgun, nobody has ever trained to any sort of proficiency with an AR15. If it fragments which many times it doesn't. Ofcourse everything is dependent on the bullet used but if you're referring to 55-62 grn fmj then yeah fragmentation is not garranteed. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 4:47:05 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it fragments which many times it doesn't. Ofcourse everything is dependent on the bullet used but if you're referring to 55-62 grn fmj then yeah fragmentation is not garranteed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In this thread, we once again learn that training mitigates physical laws,* a round, .33 caliber ball at ~1200 FPS is equal to a fragmenting 5.56 projectile at ~2900 FPS, and preparing for the "best case scenario" home invasion is the way to go. *Only when applied to a shotgun, nobody has ever trained to any sort of proficiency with an AR15. If it fragments which many times it doesn't. Ofcourse everything is dependent on the bullet used but if you're referring to 55-62 grn fmj then yeah fragmentation is not garranteed. TAP, HP, SP, Varmint loads, etc., do wicked things when they hit flesh. Who the Hell would use FMJ for HD? Unless you need a penetrator core to overcome the body armor the bears are sure to be wearing under the yellow sun.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 5:24:45 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, but I cheat like a motherfucker. Winchester M12 slamfire FTW. This posts video breakdown.... 1st shot to second shot, normal, no slamfire.. .75 seconds, glacially slow. Second shot to third "fuck it I'll slamfire" .5 seconds. the the beast within takes over and I'm like FUCK THESE PINS 3-4 is .25. Slugs at about 15-17 meters. can't remember the exact distance.  http://youtu.be/K8niTkdbVi4?list=UUkMuxQan8o1NgG5tn-7JDzgQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Think so? What are your split times on a rifle? Mine on my pump gun are .25. I'm no math wizz, but wouldn't that mean you have to have .05 splits to fire 5 times to my once? Not trying to be argumentative, but can you actually hit things that fast with a pump gun? Because that's fucking blistering.... Like world-class fast. Winchester M12 slamfire FTW. This posts video breakdown.... 1st shot to second shot, normal, no slamfire.. .75 seconds, glacially slow. Second shot to third "fuck it I'll slamfire" .5 seconds. the the beast within takes over and I'm like FUCK THESE PINS 3-4 is .25. Slugs at about 15-17 meters. can't remember the exact distance. http://youtu.be/K8niTkdbVi4?list=UUkMuxQan8o1NgG5tn-7JDzg |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 5:29:56 PM EDT
[#48]
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But we aren't talking about a firearm for general use, we're discussing home defense. While you bring up a good point, it's not really that relevant to the discussion at hand. I'd also argue you can swap a .22 kit and do most of what you brought up with an AR15 just as well as a shotgun, with about the same level of effort as swapping a barrel and load. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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how much do think a load a buck shot spreads at 7 yards? its me, my dog, and a cat that I hate. how precise do I need to be inside of 7 yards? seriously lets be real here. yeah a carbine carries more ammo in its magazine there is no denying it. but I have $350 wrapped up in the 1100 and if the cops take it or see below the g17 that i have $100 in I won't be crying about it in the evidence locker. btw I actually use neither for home defense. my home defense gun is a glock 17. I have a whopping 672 square feet to defend and in a few years it will be in the 200 ish square feet. So i need neither range nor precision. what I am saying is an autoloading shotgun is not a terrible defensive weapon. and you don't reload a shotgun. you feed it. you top it off when you can. This is basically the only real benefit to a shotgun. They're generally cheaper to get into than an AR. You can also do more things with them. You can hunt. Shoot trap and skeet. Predator control in close proximity to structure or livestock. Those things are harder to do with a carbine. Money is always an issue - not all of us are handsome millionaires. Firearms are tools. Some tools do more than one job. Some tools do fewer jobs, but easier and better. A leatherman beats a set of screwdrivers, sometimes. But we aren't talking about a firearm for general use, we're discussing home defense. While you bring up a good point, it's not really that relevant to the discussion at hand. I'd also argue you can swap a .22 kit and do most of what you brought up with an AR15 just as well as a shotgun, with about the same level of effort as swapping a barrel and load. You aren't going to hunt goose, pheasant, quail with an ar in any caliber. You *CAN* hunt turkey, deer, even bear with a shotgun. You cannot shoot skeet or trap with an AR-15. You can with a shotgun. The fact that a shotgun has general uses means you just might actually have one. The gun you have beats one you don't - especially for home defense. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 5:36:19 PM EDT
[#49]
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Ok. You tag the guy. He goes down screaming. His heretofore unseen buddies, launch a fusilade at you. You dive behind cover. You are now in a gunfight against 1) Unknown number of assailants 2) unknown number and type of weapons 3) indeterminate time until help arrives, if you managed to call 911 or neighbors hear the commotion. You have at most 7 rounds left without a reload. What is your next move? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: The shotgun does not win on every point and inside the house you are not going to get a big spread but a hole half the size of your fist. Which would you rather put in a bad guy..... A 5.56mm hole, or a hole half the size of your fist? I have also said on this site that if I had one round only make it 12GA 00 buck because I have seen the devastation on the human body first hand. That being said my carbine is lighter, more maneuverable, higher rate of fire and four times the magazine capacity with faster reloads. If I was given a shotgun only for home defense I would not feel underguned because I know how to run one and I know what it will do to another human being. Given my choice I will take an M4 type carbine because I can run it in my sleep and out of the two it is the better choice but a shotgun is not a wrong choice. You pull the trigger once, you launch one 5.56mm projectile. I pull the trigger once, I launch fifteen 8.38mm projectiles. Let's do a little math ...... Semi-Auto Carbine with 30 round magazine ...... 30 trigger pulls - Thirty (30) 5.56mm projectiles down range 12 Ga Pump Shotgun 3" Chamber 00 Buck ...... 5 trigger pulls - Seventy Five (75) 8.38mm projectiles down range ( 5 shot ) With an extended 8 shot tube it would be 120 Bring in a semi-auto shotgun and it gets even more fun! Now if the bad guy is running away from me and is 150 meters away, the rifle would be better. But let's be honest, if he is 150 meters from you and running away ..... he isn't much of a threat, now is he? For home defense the shotgun wins. For defending your neighbors house maybe that carbine. It's all about the right tool for the job. In the house ...... 870/12ga and 1911/.45 ACP Ok. You tag the guy. He goes down screaming. His heretofore unseen buddies, launch a fusilade at you. You dive behind cover. You are now in a gunfight against 1) Unknown number of assailants 2) unknown number and type of weapons 3) indeterminate time until help arrives, if you managed to call 911 or neighbors hear the commotion. You have at most 7 rounds left without a reload. What is your next move? If I'm behind cover, I wait for them to come to me or leave or the fuzz to get here while I top off my shotgun. I don't live my life in such fashion as to worry about being assaulted by a biker gang or a motorized rifle regiment. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 5:38:52 PM EDT
[#50]
Whats a shotgun ????
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