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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:31:32 PM EDT
[#1]
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Im also trying to wrap my brain around a 25 yard self defense situation........ Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you are shooting at 25 yards or so, better have good reason. And I have a very average sized ranch house. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:32:54 PM EDT
[#2]
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There it is everyone, all hat no cattle. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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@daa9mm you should totally post up your training and experience so everyone can know how authoritative you are when it comes to these threads. Neither do most others that have hit flesh and killed with 00 buck AND a centerfire rifle on different creatures, two legged or 4 legged. We should take your opinion as gospel that anyone with a shotgun and 00 buckshot are under armed against the Scarface movie type assault that killed Al Pacino because we all face that type home invasion and we all need to be prepared for it.  Maybe you are the one who should get some knowledge about how devastating shotguns are. Put on your knowledge hat because I am taking you to math school. Nine, .38 caliber projectiles equals out to a diameter of 3.42 inches versus .223 inches or .308 inches for a rifle. Your welcome. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:36:03 PM EDT
[#3]
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Well said brother. I think part of the dicksuckery going on in this thread is the OP didn't clearly specify whether this is a "which would you rather take into a 25yd gunfight", or "which would you rather land 1 shot on somebody with at 25 yds" His wording between thread title and body would lead somebody to think its option 2. In which case i'd rather get 1 shot off with 12ga 00 buck or a 12ga slug. That being said i'd rather bring a semi auto mag fed 308 to a gunfight all day every day without a second guess. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For this contrived scenario I'd choose 12 ga. Slugs. For real world I'll pick a semiauto detachable magazine fed .308 rifle. The limitations of shotguns (ergos, recoil, magazine capacity) aren't the rounds at close range that's thier strong suit. shotguns are specialized tools that lack utility. Especially when compared to a fighting rifle. His wording between thread title and body would lead somebody to think its option 2. In which case i'd rather get 1 shot off with 12ga 00 buck or a 12ga slug. That being said i'd rather bring a semi auto mag fed 308 to a gunfight all day every day without a second guess. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:40:16 PM EDT
[#4]
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Dude, you need to slow your roll. He already knows all the knowledge about killing things, both 2 legged and 4 legged. He doesn't need to impress you. He knows. Maybe you are the one who should get some knowledge about how devastating shotguns are. Put on your knowledge hat because I am taking you to math school. Nine, .38 caliber projectiles equals out to a diameter of 3.42 inches versus .223 inches or .308 inches for a rifle. Your welcome. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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@daa9mm you should totally post up your training and experience so everyone can know how authoritative you are when it comes to these threads. Neither do most others that have hit flesh and killed with 00 buck AND a centerfire rifle on different creatures, two legged or 4 legged. We should take your opinion as gospel that anyone with a shotgun and 00 buckshot are under armed against the Scarface movie type assault that killed Al Pacino because we all face that type home invasion and we all need to be prepared for it. Maybe you are the one who should get some knowledge about how devastating shotguns are. Put on your knowledge hat because I am taking you to math school. Nine, .38 caliber projectiles equals out to a diameter of 3.42 inches versus .223 inches or .308 inches for a rifle. Your welcome. 
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:43:23 PM EDT
[#5]
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OP did clearly specify his intent. It's just a generic GD shotgun HD thread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For this contrived scenario I'd choose 12 ga. Slugs. For real world I'll pick a semiauto detachable magazine fed .308 rifle. The limitations of shotguns (ergos, recoil, magazine capacity) aren't the rounds at close range that's thier strong suit. shotguns are specialized tools that lack utility. Especially when compared to a fighting rifle. His wording between thread title and body would lead somebody to think its option 2. In which case i'd rather get 1 shot off with 12ga 00 buck or a 12ga slug. That being said i'd rather bring a semi auto mag fed 308 to a gunfight all day every day without a second guess. The "I like to measure efficiency in joules and penetration" part of his post was making me think he was probably asking about getting 1 shot off with. So basically what I get out of this thread now is OP sucks, my reading skills suck, and everything and everybody else sucks. 'Merica |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:57:27 PM EDT
[#6]
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I would go with 12ga 00 buckshot with flite control wad. Capacity may be less than a full mag of .308, but 8 in the tube and 6 or 7 more in a side saddle should be more than enough to deal with any defense situation you would ever encounter. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 6:59:15 PM EDT
[#7]
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Good call I totally missed the HD/SD part of his thread title for some reason. The "I like to measure efficiency in joules and penetration" part of his post was making me think he was probably asking about getting 1 shot off with. So basically what I get out of this thread now is OP sucks, my reading skills suck, and everything and everybody else sucks. 'Merica Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For this contrived scenario I'd choose 12 ga. Slugs. For real world I'll pick a semiauto detachable magazine fed .308 rifle. The limitations of shotguns (ergos, recoil, magazine capacity) aren't the rounds at close range that's thier strong suit. shotguns are specialized tools that lack utility. Especially when compared to a fighting rifle. His wording between thread title and body would lead somebody to think its option 2. In which case i'd rather get 1 shot off with 12ga 00 buck or a 12ga slug. That being said i'd rather bring a semi auto mag fed 308 to a gunfight all day every day without a second guess. The "I like to measure efficiency in joules and penetration" part of his post was making me think he was probably asking about getting 1 shot off with. So basically what I get out of this thread now is OP sucks, my reading skills suck, and everything and everybody else sucks. 'Merica |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 7:04:49 PM EDT
[#8]
home defence? 25 yrd?
12 00 buck is a no brainer. slug would be interesting too. you miss (or the 308 goes through your target) and that bullet is libel to end up in you neighbor's house or down the street in somone's car. seems like fishing guides in alaska carry 12 gauge loaded with slugs. if its good enough for a browny it good enough for home invasions, though the buckshot would be my first choice in close-in. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 7:10:01 PM EDT
[#9]
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OP apparently did not realize he is in Arfcom GD. None of the Arfcom GD Operators would ever be caught dead with a 12 gauge for anything. In Arfcom GD 9metrosexual is ALWAYS the answer to any and every self defense question. Next is the 5.56, then the .308, then 7.62, then .22lr. Arfcom GD even prefers .38 Special as self defense round well before .45 ACP, which is rated by Arfcom GD experts near the bottom of the lethality spectrum, just above the 12 gauge. According to Arfcom GD expert operators, the 12 gauge is completely worthless for human targets, even point blank, regardless of load. However its 100% deadly to humans on the other side of walls, the next house over or even the next block due to overpenetration issues. According to Arfcom GD experts the 12 gauge is barely sufficient for hollow boned birds, most of these experts prefer a 20 gauge or even a .410. Ironically, while Arfcom GD expert operators completely dismiss the 12 gauge as a self defense weapon against humans, the 12 gauge is widely supported as super lethal to charging grizzly bears due to their very thick and tough hide and need for large caliber deep penetration. Unfortunately, the ability of a 12 gauge slug to massively and deeply penetrate a bear does not translate to any lethality whatsoever to humans. I thank the Lord daily for the wisdom of Arfcom GD.  Well said 
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Posted: 3/25/2017 7:33:25 PM EDT
[#10]
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home defence? 25 yrd? 12 00 buck is a no brainer. slug would be interesting too. you miss (or the 308 goes through your target) and that bullet is libel to end up in you neighbor's house or down the street in somone's car. seems like fishing guides in alaska carry 12 gauge loaded with slugs. if its good enough for a browny it good enough for home invasions, though the buckshot would be my first choice in close-in. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 7:35:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote History |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 7:49:27 PM EDT
[#12]
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I like to measure efficiency in joules and penetration This is why you fail. Incapacitating hits over time. That's the closet thing you're gonna get to a "math" answer. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 7:50:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Follow- up shots are not a problem
Skip to about 40 seconds in to see 6 rapid slug shots starting a ~50 yds in to 30, a double tap on the last one.  September 6, 2016 |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 8:01:02 PM EDT
[#14]
That extra curvy banana shotgun mag is by far the gayest thing I have ever seen. That's saying something cause I used to suck dick for crack.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 8:08:33 PM EDT
[#15]
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Good thing common building materials stop slugs and buck then, right? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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home defence? 25 yrd? 12 00 buck is a no brainer. slug would be interesting too. you miss (or the 308 goes through your target) and that bullet is libel to end up in you neighbor's house or down the street in somone's car. seems like fishing guides in alaska carry 12 gauge loaded with slugs. if its good enough for a browny it good enough for home invasions, though the buckshot would be my first choice in close-in. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 9:05:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Voted 12ga
My .308 (AR10) has an 18" barrel, wears a 4-16X scope and resides in the safe. Not in my top 10 choices for HD. I have handguns in the nightstand and a 12ga loaded with 00 Buck in the walk-in closet about 5 ft from my bed. .308 could be a better choice for HD, but it's not my choice. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 9:08:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Whoever makes the first hit will likely win.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 9:50:24 PM EDT
[#18]
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Dude, you need to slow your roll. He already knows all the knowledge about killing things, both 2 legged and 4 legged. He doesn't need to impress you. He knows. Maybe you are the one who should get some knowledge about how devastating shotguns are. Put on your knowledge hat because I am taking you to math school. Nine, .38 caliber projectiles equals out to a diameter of 3.42 inches versus .223 inches or .308 inches for a rifle. Your welcome. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 10:24:30 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 3/25/2017 10:37:02 PM EDT
[#20]
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Not sure if trolling or not. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 10:58:32 PM EDT
[#21]
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.308. Not as good as 5.56 but still better than 12 ga for lot of the same reasons ,mostly centered around the weapon not as much as the caliber. Also, LOL@ all the already made analogies to hunting, and all of the ones to follow, since people are not animals and don't react the same. LOL@ all the people who will talk about how great a shotgun is because of math, but don't actually train or HD type stuff with them to know their strengths and weaknesses. Which of course leads them to not being able to articulate anything of not and rely on shitty analogies and arguments based around narrow world views. (and butthurt) Also, can't wait to see the normal tryhads who will cry about people being "keyboard commando's".  |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 11:15:14 PM EDT
[#22]
I have a Benelli M1 tactical and a FAL, both have very similar sights, either would be accurate shooting a single shot or even rapid controlled fire but the M1 would literally shred the target apart with rapid fire shooting 9 rounds of 00 buckshot.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 11:31:46 PM EDT
[#23]
against a soft target, no vehicle or armor?
12 gauge, federal flitecontrol buckshot. |
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Posted: 3/25/2017 11:38:59 PM EDT
[#24]
The 155g Amax is a dirty 308 round. Short neck, rapid expansion, fragmentation and low risk of over penetration. Its what I would use.
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Posted: 3/25/2017 11:43:13 PM EDT
[#25]
the 12 gauge certainly is the economy choice.
you can get an 870 express and 50 rounds of buckshot and slugs for $400. I live in the country, expect a sizable 9-1-1 response time, so there's an AR with a light and a 9-shot Mossberg with a light in the bedside closet. 
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Posted: 3/25/2017 11:47:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Even if you have body armor on you are going down.
Federal flight control groups tight & your head will be leaking a lot at 25 yards..... 
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Posted: 3/25/2017 11:48:28 PM EDT
[#27]
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im not a ballistics expert, maybe one will chime in. but i would expect maybe incorrectly that a 308 bullet would penetrate more 'building' material than either 00 or slugs. I know both will go through some building material but i assumed that the risk would be less in a residential environment for the shotgun rounds. the buck will shed velocity more quickly, but it's all a wash inside your house. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 12:01:47 AM EDT
[#28]
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Candy cane magazine of Dragon's Breath and Flechette rounds of course!  |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 12:05:24 AM EDT
[#29]
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Whoever makes the first hit will likely win. this has led me to adopt a policy of "hit back, first". 
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Posted: 3/26/2017 12:11:53 AM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 3/26/2017 12:12:57 AM EDT
[#31]
20 round box magazine full of 7.62x51 NATO 175gr OTM is a LOT OF DEFENSE.
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Posted: 3/26/2017 12:31:08 AM EDT
[#32]
In my scenario I would choose the 12 gauge.
My 308 is a bolt gun with a 4 round capacity. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 12:32:54 AM EDT
[#33]
GD shotgun thread.
If the shooter is me, it's the shotgun. I'm 48 and grew up with an 870. I know what it and I can do together. I have an FAL and it's a great weapon. But I won't pretend to be 10% as familiar with it's capabilities with me behind the trigger. A 308 has many advantages. But for me, I'll roll with the weapon I could run in my sleep. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 1:10:46 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 3/26/2017 1:22:27 AM EDT
[#35]
For less than 25 yards in a house, I'd probably go with 12ga 00 buck.
308 could work well too, but bullet selection and charge would be important. Too much fps with an improper bullet could see it traveling straight through without transferring much energy to target, or it could fragment and not penetrate well. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 1:38:28 AM EDT
[#36]
I keep a 20 round mag of DAG 7.62 in the RFB for social work.
I also keep the Super 90 full of Hexolit 32's. So, "get both". |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 1:54:26 AM EDT
[#37]
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For less than 25 yards in a house, I'd probably go with 12ga 00 buck. 308 could work well too, but bullet selection and charge would be important. Too much fps with an improper bullet could see it traveling straight through without transferring much energy to target, or it could fragment and not penetrate well. Also, fragmenting .223 does a lot of damage and has a record of incapacitating tame apes pretty well. There is no reason to assume fragmenting .308 at near three times the mass would not perform as well. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 2:00:35 AM EDT
[#38]
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You can check out what .308 soft points do to ballistic gelatin, it's burley as shit. Also, fragmenting .223 does a lot of damage and has a record of incapacitating tame apes pretty well. There is no reason to assume fragmenting .308 at near three times the mass would not perform as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For less than 25 yards in a house, I'd probably go with 12ga 00 buck. 308 could work well too, but bullet selection and charge would be important. Too much fps with an improper bullet could see it traveling straight through without transferring much energy to target, or it could fragment and not penetrate well. Also, fragmenting .223 does a lot of damage and has a record of incapacitating tame apes pretty well. There is no reason to assume fragmenting .308 at near three times the mass would not perform as well. 
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Posted: 3/26/2017 2:39:36 AM EDT
[#39]
I don't even want to think about firing a .308 in an almost certainly indoor HD scenario. My ears already hurt.
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Posted: 3/26/2017 2:49:26 AM EDT
[#40]
What if the bear breaking into my house is wearing armor and using cover?
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Posted: 3/26/2017 2:50:38 AM EDT
[#41]
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I don't even want to think about firing a .308 in an almost certainly indoor HD scenario. My ears already hurt. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 2:54:58 AM EDT
[#42]
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What if the bear breaking into my house is wearing armor and using cover? 
Or bear spray and a rape whistle |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 3:05:11 AM EDT
[#43]
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Nuclear.
Or bear spray and a rape whistle Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What if the bear breaking into my house is wearing armor and using cover?
Or bear spray and a rape whistle |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 4:49:56 AM EDT
[#44]
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Cite? And that highlighted word is why a shotgun is a poor choice compared to a carbine. Hmmm... Thanks for pointing that out. Can't really find anything in the FBI reports. Max |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 4:54:13 AM EDT
[#45]
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More like 2900 ft-lbs for the .308. The target won't tell the difference unless the guy w/ the booger hook on the trigger screws up. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 5:00:45 AM EDT
[#46]
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Fleet yaw effect on 5.56 has left some of the more graphic wounds I've seen, and I've seen hajji's shot and blown up by a wide range of things. Think softball size hole of pulled pork sammich. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For less than 25 yards in a house, I'd probably go with 12ga 00 buck. 308 could work well too, but bullet selection and charge would be important. Too much fps with an improper bullet could see it traveling straight through without transferring much energy to target, or it could fragment and not penetrate well. Also, fragmenting .223 does a lot of damage and has a record of incapacitating tame apes pretty well. There is no reason to assume fragmenting .308 at near three times the mass would not perform as well. 7" TC out of a 155 amax 
77gr 5.56 4.5" TC 
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Posted: 3/26/2017 5:44:31 AM EDT
[#47]
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https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Cite? And that highlighted word is why a shotgun is a poor choice compared to a carbine. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 11:58:07 AM EDT
[#48]
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You can get the same effect with .308 in lighter bullet loads. Adding in another 1,000ft/lb of energy and you have a larger fragmented cavity. 7" TC out of a 155 amax http://s459.photobucket.com/user/DocGKR/media/308_TAP_comparison.jpg.html 77gr 5.56 4.5" TC https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/MiscDocuments/SAMMI_pressure_Hornady_75_gel_shot_from_16_inch_barrel.jpg http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/WoundProfilesAfterWallBarrier.jpg |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 12:09:17 PM EDT
[#49]
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Interesting how all rifle calibers in his study, put the rile as being more fatal, and having a lower percentage of failed incapacitation than shotguns which 90% of were 12 gauge. Just goes to support Rifles>shotguns. Shotguns. |
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Posted: 3/26/2017 12:12:55 PM EDT
[#50]
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.308. Not as good as 5.56 but still better than 12 ga for lot of the same reasons ,mostly centered around the weapon not as much as the caliber. Also, LOL@ all the already made analogies to hunting, and all of the ones to follow, since people are not animals and don't react the same. LOL@ all the people who will talk about how great a shotgun is because of math, but don't actually train or HD type stuff with them to know their strengths and weaknesses. Which of course leads them to not being able to articulate anything of not and rely on shitty analogies and arguments based around narrow world views. (and butthurt) Also, can't wait to see the normal tryhads who will cry about people being "keyboard commando's". I get capacity in the field, etc, but you seem to be just talking about ballistics. (Pushes Starship Troopers button because wants to know more) |
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