Dash cam of Michigan Cop Shattering Car Window After Driver Refused To Give ID - Page 9

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Dash cam of Michigan Cop Shattering Car Window After Driver Refused To Give ID (Page 9 of 12)

Posted: 5/28/2017 9:57:48 AM EDT

[#1]

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Is there a legal requirement on the police to de-escalate people who refuse to obey the law, or is there a legal requirement for people to obey the law in the first place and de-escalate their own unlawful behavior when confronted by the police?

I'll give you a hint, the former doesn't exist except in the mind of the ACLU and some idiotic department policies. The latter has been the law of the land since longer than you've been alive.

If you commit a traffic violation you don't get to put conditions on when you produce your documents. You stopped being in control of the interaction when you violated the law and got pulled over. The officer doesn't owe you an explanation before you produce the documents you are required to carry when operating a vehicle. The interaction can consist entirely of "Give me your license and registration" and "Here is your ticket for xxx." Explaining the reason for the stop is just the polite thing to do, not a legal requirement, and you most certainly do not get to play the "You have to tell me what I did" game.

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No, the same way there is no legal requirement to be nice to a cop who pulled you over....Human decency works both ways, this is just another episode of When Assholes Collide.

Posted: 5/28/2017 10:05:29 AM EDT

[#2]

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Justifiable smash, although, I would have probably handled it differently.

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Yep. Cop should have first called in the stop before the approach and then notified the driver of the reason for the stop. He got pulled over for a stop sign violation and then charged with contempt of cop. Some guys are like a fucking gallon of gasoline waiting for a spark.

Posted: 5/28/2017 10:09:52 AM EDT

[#3]

Posted: 5/28/2017 10:13:24 AM EDT

[#4]

Calvin Jones is a racist. He wouldn't cooperate with the cop because the cop was white.

This makes more sense than the ACLU's position.

Posted: 5/28/2017 10:23:34 AM EDT

[#5]

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I never said it did. You are arguing against yourself.
Yet you keep replying.
What the fuck are you talking about and in what language?
I don't care. Not one bit. Maybe they will keep arguing. So fucking what?
Make me.
I've caught you in a lot of contradictions. At least I think I have. Your version of English is hard to read.

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The fourth amendment doesnt say, nor has it ever been held to require, that probable cause be stated by an investigating officer to the accused at any point before an arrest. Because it doesnt require it. .

Its also never been held to erase probable cause if the investigating officer doesnt disclose it.

I never said it did. You are arguing against yourself.

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It doesnt matter what you "think", amd your posts confirm thst youre using that term loosely. Your subjective thoughts on what cops should have to do is neither relevant to a critique of this cop's actions, not is it interesting

Yet you keep replying.

Quoted:
My position does NOT require me to state a position on infraction versus criminal act, because the fourth amendment doesnt require it for a crime, which is what the courts are looking at in most reviews of this subject. If its not required for a suspected crime, then even if an infraction "should be" a crime, it is not a requirement that a cop state probable cause on the roadside.

What the fuck are you talking about and in what language?

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And, of course, practically speaking, it solves nothing. The combative people are simply going to proclsim that they didnt do whatever the cop says he saw them do.

I don't care. Not one bit. Maybe they will keep arguing. So fucking what?

Quoted:
Stop trying to slice up my posts in some half assed crusade to pretend something is "funny as hell" or that you get to use my words aganst me.

Make me.

Quoted:
Youve yet to catch me in a contradiction, or make some reasoned argument that my statements are incorrect.

I've caught you in a lot of contradictions. At least I think I have. Your version of English is hard to read.

You caught jack shit. "Make me"?

Wow, youre a regular Clarence Darrow.

Its impeccable English, special ed.

Youre dismissed.

Posted: 5/28/2017 10:28:34 AM EDT

[#6]

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When did you "smash my argument", or even respond to the actual content of my post at all? The only time you even mention it is to say you won't answer it.

As for the rest of your "rant" I hope you have a more intimidating presence in person because it's just amusing in text.

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Another blow hard dispensing persuasive writing tips online.

How refreshing.

I make a living expressing myself, cupcake. The day i need advice from you is the day i hang up my shingle .

And dont have a fit because your idiotic "so you mean (something the other person didint say, nor is it a logical extension of anything they wrote)" got smashed.

Here is a pro tip. I will say what i think, you get to say what you think. Ham handed and moronic extensions of what you think my postion means, while popular with mushy headed know it alls, is a crappy debate tactic.

The fourth amendment doesnt say, and has never been held to say, that if a cop has probable cause, hey must reveal it to the accused, traffic or not, nor has it been held to say that if a cop doesnt state probable cause to the accused, there is no probable cause.

Its got nothing to do with, nor does it require me to address, whether an infraction should be a crime.

Carry on.

Edit, love the (sic) commentary. Always a sign of a rational argument.

Ill let you know if i need an editor. Wait by the phone.

When did you "smash my argument", or even respond to the actual content of my post at all? The only time you even mention it is to say you won't answer it.

As for the rest of your "rant" I hope you have a more intimidating presence in person because it's just amusing in text.

Really? Ok, for the remedial, i will spell it out. Again. Its The part where i destroyed it, gadfly. I didnt say what you slobbered, "so to you, blah blah."

Its a typical moronic attempt to put words in someones mouth. I didnt say or imply that i am fine with the distinction between infraction and crime. Thats what you flitted in to say. Its wrong. Its a stupid debate tactic. And i smashed it.

My point doesnt require me to take a position on that issue, and ive spelled it out three times now.

In person, yeah, i do fine. Typically im not forced to argue against mentally incompetent pro per litigants who listen to arguments that destroy their points, but who pretend i didnt respond.

Posted: 5/28/2017 10:31:00 AM EDT

[#7]

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I've highlighted the important part for you.
This might help too.

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Letting the driver control the stop doesn't de-escalate things. Letting the driver play the "I am not cooperating until the officer answers my questions " game gives control to the driver. The driver thinks he can argue and fight the stop right there. That makes everything worse.

Muh command presence! Dude is an asshole true, but cop is too and the difference is the public employs the cop. Should one never ever ever question authority? If it's not a valid stop dude has no legal requirement to provide ID, how fucking hard is it to just give a reason if you have one? I get you can't let the guy take over the stop but a lot of cops are taking this command and control shit too far in a society that does not respond as their instructors taught them. When I get pulled over I know why, but if a
cop initiates contact with me for seemingly no reason I will
Politely ask the reason and this guy does ask the reason politely.

Is driving RS of not having a license? No mother fucker it's not so you better have a reason.

So a roadside courtroom/fight is the way to go?

Come on.

What about when the cop says "i pulled you over for running that stop sign," and citizen of the month says, "no, i didnt. Im not showing id, this is an unlawful stop"?

You say you know why you get pulled over, why doesnt this guy?

I've highlighted the important part for you.
This might help too.

Moronic and non responsive.

Posted: 5/28/2017 10:43:22 AM EDT

[#8]

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Really? Ok, for the remedial, i will spell it out. Again. Its The part where i destroyed it, gadfly. I didnt say what you slobbered, "so to you, blah blah."

Its a typical moronic attempt to put words in someones mouth. I didnt say or imply that i am fine with the distinction between infraction and crime. Thats what you flitted in to say. Its wrong. Its a stupid debate tactic. And i smashed it.

My point doesnt require me to take a position on that issue, and ive spelled it out three times now.

In person, yeah, i do fine. Typically im not forced to argue against mentally incompetent pro per litigants who listen to arguments that destroy their points, but who pretend i didnt respond.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Another blow hard dispensing persuasive writing tips online.

How refreshing.

I make a living expressing myself, cupcake. The day i need advice from you is the day i hang up my shingle .

And dont have a fit because your idiotic "so you mean (something the other person didint say, nor is it a logical extension of anything they wrote)" got smashed.

Here is a pro tip. I will say what i think, you get to say what you think. Ham handed and moronic extensions of what you think my postion means, while popular with mushy headed know it alls, is a crappy debate tactic.

The fourth amendment doesnt say, and has never been held to say, that if a cop has probable cause, hey must reveal it to the accused, traffic or not, nor has it been held to say that if a cop doesnt state probable cause to the accused, there is no probable cause.

Its got nothing to do with, nor does it require me to address, whether an infraction should be a crime.

Carry on.

Edit, love the (sic) commentary. Always a sign of a rational argument.

Ill let you know if i need an editor. Wait by the phone.

When did you "smash my argument", or even respond to the actual content of my post at all? The only time you even mention it is to say you won't answer it.

As for the rest of your "rant" I hope you have a more intimidating presence in person because it's just amusing in text.

Really? Ok, for the remedial, i will spell it out. Again. Its The part where i destroyed it, gadfly. I didnt say what you slobbered, "so to you, blah blah."

Its a typical moronic attempt to put words in someones mouth. I didnt say or imply that i am fine with the distinction between infraction and crime. Thats what you flitted in to say. Its wrong. Its a stupid debate tactic. And i smashed it.

My point doesnt require me to take a position on that issue, and ive spelled it out three times now.

In person, yeah, i do fine. Typically im not forced to argue against mentally incompetent pro per litigants who listen to arguments that destroy their points, but who pretend i didnt respond.

I went and reread what you wrote. For some that makes a living communicating you haven't been able to convey anything. In fact I've asked for clarification of what you did try to express and you resort to piles of juvenile personal attacks while purposely ignoring the points.

So if this is all you have I bid you good day and I will go do something more intellectually stimulating than this exchange. Perhaps I can hit my hand with a hammer for a while.

Posted: 5/28/2017 10:45:52 AM EDT

[#9]

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I went and reread what you wrote. For some that makes a living communicating you haven't been able to convey anything. In fact I've asked for clarification of what you did try to express and you resort to piles of juvenile personal attacks while purposely ignoring the points.

So if this is all you have I bid you good day and I will go do something more intellectually stimulating than this exchange. Perhaps I can hit my hand with a hammer for a while.

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Hahahaha. That's pretty good too!

Posted: 5/28/2017 10:55:24 AM EDT

[#10]

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Ran a stop sign. Driver needlessly escalated the situation.

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what stop sign

Posted: 5/28/2017 11:03:09 AM EDT

[#11]

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what stop sign

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There's one on the right side of the video when it staters. You can see the back side of it.

Posted: 5/28/2017 11:08:18 AM EDT

[#12]

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what stop sign

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Quoted:

Ran a stop sign. Driver needlessly escalated the situation.

what stop sign

At the very start of the video, blow it up and look to the right hand side, you can make out the shape of a stop sign at the intersection.

Posted: 5/28/2017 11:16:05 AM EDT

[#13]

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No, the same way there is no legal requirement to be nice to a cop who pulled you over....Human decency works both ways, this is just another episode of When Assholes Collide.

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Quoted:

Is there a legal requirement on the police to de-escalate people who refuse to obey the law, or is there a legal requirement for people to obey the law in the first place and de-escalate their own unlawful behavior when confronted by the police?

I'll give you a hint, the former doesn't exist except in the mind of the ACLU and some idiotic department policies. The latter has been the law of the land since longer than you've been alive.

If you commit a traffic violation you don't get to put conditions on when you produce your documents. You stopped being in control of the interaction when you violated the law and got pulled over. The officer doesn't owe you an explanation before you produce the documents you are required to carry when operating a vehicle. The interaction can consist entirely of "Give me your license and registration" and "Here is your ticket for xxx." Explaining the reason for the stop is just the polite thing to do, not a legal requirement, and you most certainly do not get to play the "You have to tell me what I did" game.

No, the same way there is no legal requirement to be nice to a cop who pulled you over....Human decency works both ways, this is just another episode of When Assholes Collide.

Neither of which was the issue. The issue was the driver's refusal to identify himself, wasn't it?

Posted: 5/28/2017 11:17:31 AM EDT

[#14]

Good arrest. He blew a stop sign and then refused to cooperate.

Posted: 5/28/2017 11:34:03 AM EDT

[#15]

The cop is a moron. So is the driver. I put more blame on the cop though. He should have been more professional and less inclined to violence over stupid shit. He massively overreacted in my opinion. Seems to be a theme in US law enforcement at this point. Escalating to the point of violence over minor stuff than can and should be handled peacefully.

Posted: 5/28/2017 11:39:41 AM EDT

[#16]

funny how the police tape starts after the car is past the stop sign.

same car that purportedly blew a stop sign, voluntarily stopped at the following unmarked sign? hard to believe.

from the above, the logical extrapolation is the reason the cop didn't tell him why the stop is he knew it was bs.

Posted: 5/28/2017 11:42:24 AM EDT

[#17]

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funny how the police tape starts after the car is past the stop sign.

same car that purportedly blew a stop sign, voluntarily stopped at the following unmarked sign? hard to believe.

from the above, the logical extrapolation is the reason the cop didn't tell him why the stop is he knew it was bs.

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You need to get your eyes checked.

Posted: 5/28/2017 11:43:36 AM EDT

[#18]

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You guys do understand even the ACLU said everything the cop did as perfectly legal?

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It's ARFCOM--and the internet--facts don't matter.

Posted: 5/28/2017 11:51:58 AM EDT

[#19]

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The cop is a moron. So is the driver. I put more blame on the cop though. He should have been more professional and less inclined to violence over stupid shit. He massively overreacted in my opinion. Seems to be a theme in US law enforcement at this point. Escalating to the point of violence over minor stuff than can and should be handled peacefully.

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LOL....The side of the road is not the place for a mediation session.

Posted: 5/28/2017 11:59:50 AM EDT

[#20]

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I see. Every time I have been pulled (a long long time ago), I always handed him a license, registration, and proof of insurance. I was cooperative and never went to jail. See how easy that is.

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Funny how that works. I went through a serious case of cocky teenager.. but I never reached this level of stupidity. I was pulled over (several times) and never one time did I not completely comply once stopped.. somehow I managed to survive.

Posted: 5/28/2017 12:12:16 PM EDT

[#21]

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agreed the officer could have de escalated this by just telling him why he was stopped. I would guess there was no valid reason. so officer friendly became not so friendly. I would probably aquit the defendant if I was on the jury as the officer went aggressive way too early in the stop. just fucking tell the guy when he still wont produce the documents cuff and stuff

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The officer was just a power hungry asshole, and should be weeded out, someone with that big a chip on his shoulder doesn't need to be carrying around a gun and badge. The officer clearly wanted to escalate the situation and he did just that, the fact he couldn't articulate a reason for pulling the guy over clearly demonstrated he was on a fishing expedition and he caught one, but he needs to at the very least be riding a desk instead of dealing with the public.

Posted: 5/28/2017 12:18:04 PM EDT

[#22]

Loser moran wanna be thug showing off for his section 8 crotch fruit momma.

He failed badly, intelligence does not run in his family.

Don't see an issue cop wise, he went from asking politely to telling in steps only a retard couldn't follow.

Posted: 5/28/2017 12:20:18 PM EDT

[#23]

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The officer was just a power hungry asshole, and should be weeded out, someone with that big a chip on his shoulder doesn't need to be carrying around a gun and badge. The officer clearly wanted to escalate the situation and he did just that, the fact he couldn't articulate a reason for pulling the guy over clearly demonstrated he was on a fishing expedition and he caught one, but he needs to at the very least be riding a desk instead of dealing with the public.

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Posted: 5/28/2017 12:46:37 PM EDT

[#24]

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Quoted:
The officer was just a power hungry asshole, and should be weeded out, someone with that big a chip on his shoulder doesn't need to be carrying around a gun and badge. The officer clearly wanted to escalate the situation and he did just that, the fact he couldn't articulate a reason for pulling the guy over clearly demonstrated he was on a fishing expedition and he caught one, but he needs to at the very least be riding a desk instead of dealing with the public.

+1

Posted: 5/28/2017 12:48:05 PM EDT

[#25]

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+1

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Quoted:

Quoted:
The officer was just a power hungry asshole, and should be weeded out, someone with that big a chip on his shoulder doesn't need to be carrying around a gun and badge. The officer clearly wanted to escalate the situation and he did just that, the fact he couldn't articulate a reason for pulling the guy over clearly demonstrated he was on a fishing expedition and he caught one, but he needs to at the very least be riding a desk instead of dealing with the public.

+1

If the cop didn't tell him why he was stopped..........why???

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:01:44 PM EDT

[#26]

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So a roadside courtroom/fight is the way to go?

Come on.

What about when the cop says "i pulled you over for running that stop sign," and citizen of the month says, "no, i didnt. Im not showing id, this is an unlawful stop"?

You say you know why you get pulled over, why doesnt this guy?

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Letting the driver control the stop doesn't de-escalate things. Letting the driver play the "I am not cooperating until the officer answers my questions " game gives control to the driver. The driver thinks he can argue and fight the stop right there. That makes everything worse.

Muh command presence! Dude is an asshole true, but cop is too and the difference is the public employs the cop. Should one never ever ever question authority? If it's not a valid stop dude has no legal requirement to provide ID, how fucking hard is it to just give a reason if you have one? I get you can't let the guy take over the stop but a lot of cops are taking this command and control shit too far in a society that does not respond as their instructors taught them. When I get pulled over I know why, but if a
cop initiates contact with me for seemingly no reason I will
Politely ask the reason and this guy does ask the reason politely.

Is driving RS of not having a license? No mother fucker it's not so you better have a reason.

So a roadside courtroom/fight is the way to go?

Come on.

What about when the cop says "i pulled you over for running that stop sign," and citizen of the month says, "no, i didnt. Im not showing id, this is an unlawful stop"?

You say you know why you get pulled over, why doesnt this guy?

Then the cop says take that up with the judge show
me your DL or I will have to take you to jail today. I'm not some ACLU leftist there is no reason to be a power trip asshole cop though and that's how it comes off. Just fucking tell me why I was pulled over like every single cop except one I have ever dealt with has done.

I'm talking about the whole command presence training bullshit that gets pumped into these clowns. It doesn't have good results. I have run into both types of cop growing up in the hood, 90% where cool dudes no issues. The other 10% they think they are controlling the situation but the reality is they are just ramping up the tension and putting their own careers at risk.

I am pro LE but fuck help me out being pro LE and stop shooting yourselves in the foot.

Think about how this looks on camera, and yes cops need to always be thinking that. You can be polite and still control the situation.

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:02:58 PM EDT

[#27]

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If the cop didn't tell him why he was stopped..........why???

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It's been explained several times.

There are two schools on traffic stops.

The old school is, license, registration (proof of insurance please)
Thank you. I stopped you today for (whatever)

New school

Hi, I'm officer so-and-so with the whatever department of whatever. I'm contacting you today because you (did something). Now, I'd like your license, registration, (and proof of insurance) please

Real world:

They are either gonna give you the license or not.

It is best to get their ID FIRST. That way, if they drive off after hurting you, you have their ID.

If they don't give the ID up, and wanna ask questions and but why but why, the stop needs to go in a whole different direction.

You as the motorist should never, ever, ever be given control of the stop. You don't get to decide where to stop. Or when / if to cough up ID. These things always end badly for all involved, and typically worse for the motorist than the officer.

My response had always been 'we'll discuss things AFTER you produce your identification.' I don't discuss things with people that decline to identify themselves. It's not safe, and a clear sign the stop is escalating.

And, you legally have to identify yourself to an officer conducting a criminal investigation. Period. Full stop. If you don't, that's an offense separate to the original reason for the encounter.

Just how it is, and how it needs to be.

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:09:59 PM EDT

[#28]

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Thats a lot of work to try to pretend youre correct.

Youre not, though.

So now youre pretending that if i quote a discussion of some point, but do not say something about the entire quote, then you get to tell me what i think about the part i did not speak to? Is that the way this works?

No wonder you persist in thinking youre doing well.

You could really use a clue.

Ive been utterly consistent, clear, and correct.

The fourth amendment doesnt say, nor has it ever been held to require, that probable cause be stated by an investigating officer to the accused at any point before an arrest. Because it doesnt require it. .

Its also never been held to erase probable cause if the investigating officer doesnt disclose it.

It doesnt matter what you "think", amd your posts confirm thst youre using that term loosely. Your subjective thoughts on what cops should have to do is neither relevant to a critique of this cop's actions, not is it interesting

My position does NOT require me to state a position on infraction versus criminal act, because the fourth amendment doesnt require it for a crime, which is what the courts are looking at in most reviews of this subject. If its not required for a suspected crime, then even if an infraction "should be" a crime, it is not a requirement that a cop state probable cause on the roadside.

And, of course, practically speaking, it solves nothing. The combative people are simply going to proclsim that they didnt do whatever the cop says he saw them do.

Stop trying to slice up my posts in some half assed crusade to pretend something is "funny as hell" or that you get to use my words aganst me.

Youve yet to catch me in a contradiction, or make some reasoned argument that my statements are incorrect.

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Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

I'm not saying press charges against the cop I am saying as a public employee I expect a smile until an ass beating is warranted and I think he could have gave the reason for the stop with a smile at the point cop decides he is going to prove who has the bigger dick. Further if I was cops boss that would earn him a shitty review.

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:12:26 PM EDT

[#29]

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Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

I'm not saying press charges against the cop I am saying as a public employee I expect a smile until an ass beating is warranted and I think he could have gave the reason for the stop with a smile at the point cop decides he is going to prove who has the bigger dick. Further if I was cops boss that would earn him a shitty review.

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Quoted:

Thats a lot of work to try to pretend youre correct.

Youre not, though.

So now youre pretending that if i quote a discussion of some point, but do not say something about the entire quote, then you get to tell me what i think about the part i did not speak to? Is that the way this works?

No wonder you persist in thinking youre doing well.

You could really use a clue.

Ive been utterly consistent, clear, and correct.

The fourth amendment doesnt say, nor has it ever been held to require, that probable cause be stated by an investigating officer to the accused at any point before an arrest. Because it doesnt require it. .

Its also never been held to erase probable cause if the investigating officer doesnt disclose it.

It doesnt matter what you "think", amd your posts confirm thst youre using that term loosely. Your subjective thoughts on what cops should have to do is neither relevant to a critique of this cop's actions, not is it interesting

My position does NOT require me to state a position on infraction versus criminal act, because the fourth amendment doesnt require it for a crime, which is what the courts are looking at in most reviews of this subject. If its not required for a suspected crime, then even if an infraction "should be" a crime, it is not a requirement that a cop state probable cause on the roadside.

And, of course, practically speaking, it solves nothing. The combative people are simply going to proclsim that they didnt do whatever the cop says he saw them do.

Stop trying to slice up my posts in some half assed crusade to pretend something is "funny as hell" or that you get to use my words aganst me.

Youve yet to catch me in a contradiction, or make some reasoned argument that my statements are incorrect.

Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

I'm not saying press charges against the cop I am saying as a public employee I expect a smile until an ass beating is warranted and I think he could have gave the reason for the stop with a smile at the point cop decides he is going to prove who has the bigger dick. Further if I was cops boss that would earn him a shitty review.

I dont' smile. Not in my nature.

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:19:49 PM EDT

[#30]

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Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

I'm not saying press charges against the cop I am saying as a public employee I expect a smile until an ass beating is warranted and I think he could have gave the reason for the stop with a smile at the point cop decides he is going to prove who has the bigger dick. Further if I was cops boss that would earn him a shitty review.

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It's Taylor. Taylor is a shit hole that gets shittier by the day. The cops are revenue generating assholes. Everyone I know that lived there has a shit opinion of the police department and has moved out as soon as they could afford to. This is a classic example of why the place is a shit hole. Anyone who has a good job moves away and hoodrats move in. I had to drive through there to get to work for 20 years, after I saw how they operated, I never spent a cent in that dump and frequently detoured through Detroit to avoid it. That cop was probably commended for the way he represented the department. It's exactly the tone they set.

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:19:54 PM EDT

[#31]

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I dont' smile. Not in my nature.

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Thats a lot of work to try to pretend youre correct.

Youre not, though.

So now youre pretending that if i quote a discussion of some point, but do not say something about the entire quote, then you get to tell me what i think about the part i did not speak to? Is that the way this works?

No wonder you persist in thinking youre doing well.

You could really use a clue.

Ive been utterly consistent, clear, and correct.

The fourth amendment doesnt say, nor has it ever been held to require, that probable cause be stated by an investigating officer to the accused at any point before an arrest. Because it doesnt require it. .

Its also never been held to erase probable cause if the investigating officer doesnt disclose it.

It doesnt matter what you "think", amd your posts confirm thst youre using that term loosely. Your subjective thoughts on what cops should have to do is neither relevant to a critique of this cop's actions, not is it interesting

My position does NOT require me to state a position on infraction versus criminal act, because the fourth amendment doesnt require it for a crime, which is what the courts are looking at in most reviews of this subject. If its not required for a suspected crime, then even if an infraction "should be" a crime, it is not a requirement that a cop state probable cause on the roadside.

And, of course, practically speaking, it solves nothing. The combative people are simply going to proclsim that they didnt do whatever the cop says he saw them do.

Stop trying to slice up my posts in some half assed crusade to pretend something is "funny as hell" or that you get to use my words aganst me.

Youve yet to catch me in a contradiction, or make some reasoned argument that my statements are incorrect.

Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

I'm not saying press charges against the cop I am saying as a public employee I expect a smile until an ass beating is warranted and I think he could have gave the reason for the stop with a smile at the point cop decides he is going to prove who has the bigger dick. Further if I was cops boss that would earn him a shitty review.

I dont' smile. Not in my nature.

You took too literal bro

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:32:01 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
It's been explained several times.

There are two schools on traffic stops.

The old school is, license, registration (proof of insurance please)
Thank you. I stopped you today for (whatever)

New school

Hi, I'm officer so-and-so with the whatever department of whatever. I'm contacting you today because you (did something). Now, I'd like your license, registration, (and proof of insurance) please

Real world:

They are either gonna give you the license or not.

It is best to get their ID FIRST. That way, if they drive off after hurting you, you have their ID.

If they don't give the ID up, and wanna ask questions and but why but why, the stop needs to go in a whole different direction.

You as the motorist should never, ever, ever be given control of the stop. You don't get to decide where to stop. Or when / if to cough up ID. These things always end badly for all involved, and typically worse for the motorist than the officer.

My response had always been 'we'll discuss things AFTER you produce your identification.' I don't discuss things with people that decline to identify themselves. It's not safe, and a clear sign the stop is escalating.

And, you legally have to identify yourself to an officer conducting a criminal investigation. Period. Full stop. If you don't, that's an offense separate to the original reason for the encounter.

Just how it is, and how it needs to be.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
If the cop didn't tell him why he was stopped..........why???

It's been explained several times.

There are two schools on traffic stops.

The old school is, license, registration (proof of insurance please)
Thank you. I stopped you today for (whatever)

New school

Hi, I'm officer so-and-so with the whatever department of whatever. I'm contacting you today because you (did something). Now, I'd like your license, registration, (and proof of insurance) please

Real world:

They are either gonna give you the license or not.

It is best to get their ID FIRST. That way, if they drive off after hurting you, you have their ID.

If they don't give the ID up, and wanna ask questions and but why but why, the stop needs to go in a whole different direction.

You as the motorist should never, ever, ever be given control of the stop. You don't get to decide where to stop. Or when / if to cough up ID. These things always end badly for all involved, and typically worse for the motorist than the officer.

My response had always been 'we'll discuss things AFTER you produce your identification.' I don't discuss things with people that decline to identify themselves. It's not safe, and a clear sign the stop is escalating.

And, you legally have to identify yourself to an officer conducting a criminal investigation. Period. Full stop. If you don't, that's an offense separate to the original reason for the encounter.

Just how it is, and how it needs to be.

I see your points but I don't think "i pulled you over
for expired tags, running a stop sign whatever" impedes this process. Like you said they will ID or they won't the way I see it though it's either a talk like adults stop or a put a gun to their face stop. This appears to have been dick measuring stop.

How does this look to the public? It looks like a dick measuring contest.

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:32:11 PM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:

Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

View Quote

I wouldn't.

I'm surprised, honestly. That guy didn't want to know why he was being stopped. He wanted to argue. Whatever the officer said the reason for the stop was, he was going to think, hell naw, I dint do that, so I don't owe this guy jack shit. Then it goes down hill from there.

If he had said, sir, you ran the stop sign, what do you think the next thing you heard would've been?

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:34:52 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:

It's Taylor. Taylor is a shit hole that gets shittier by the day. The cops are revenue generating assholes. Everyone I know that lived there has a shit opinion of the police department and has moved out as soon as they could afford to. This is a classic example of why the place is a shit hole. Anyone who has a good job moves away and hoodrats move in. I had to drive through there to get to work for 20 years, after I saw how they operated, I never spent a cent in that dump and frequently detoured through Detroit to avoid it. That cop was probably commended for the way he represented the department. It's exactly the tone they set.

View Quote

Yep. Assholes colliding is S.O.P. for Taylor P.D. AND Taylor residents. That particular apt. complex I believe, is Crack Ridge aka the Pond. Probably as many felons per square foot as San Quentin. Whether Taylor cops are assholes because of all the thugs, or the thugs are assholes because of the cops, is kind of a "Chicken or egg" quandary. Michigan would be better off if that whole town was nuked from space.

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:35:24 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:
How does this look to the public? It looks like a dick measuring contest.

View Quote

It is a sad and perilous time in American criminal justice when we need to prioritize the optics of the event over the substance of it.

Give up the ID. They know that's how this has always worked. No, now they're entitled to a song and a dance first. Then they can decide whether or not they're gonna provide the requested information.

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:55:26 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

I'm not saying press charges against the cop I am saying as a public employee I expect a smile until an ass beating is warranted and I think he could have gave the reason for the stop with a smile at the point cop decides he is going to prove who has the bigger dick. Further if I was cops boss that would earn him a shitty review.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

Thats a lot of work to try to pretend youre correct.

Youre not, though.

So now youre pretending that if i quote a discussion of some point, but do not say something about the entire quote, then you get to tell me what i think about the part i did not speak to? Is that the way this works?

No wonder you persist in thinking youre doing well.

You could really use a clue.

Ive been utterly consistent, clear, and correct.

The fourth amendment doesnt say, nor has it ever been held to require, that probable cause be stated by an investigating officer to the accused at any point before an arrest. Because it doesnt require it. .

Its also never been held to erase probable cause if the investigating officer doesnt disclose it.

It doesnt matter what you "think", amd your posts confirm thst youre using that term loosely. Your subjective thoughts on what cops should have to do is neither relevant to a critique of this cop's actions, not is it interesting

My position does NOT require me to state a position on infraction versus criminal act, because the fourth amendment doesnt require it for a crime, which is what the courts are looking at in most reviews of this subject. If its not required for a suspected crime, then even if an infraction "should be" a crime, it is not a requirement that a cop state probable cause on the roadside.

And, of course, practically speaking, it solves nothing. The combative people are simply going to proclsim that they didnt do whatever the cop says he saw them do.

Stop trying to slice up my posts in some half assed crusade to pretend something is "funny as hell" or that you get to use my words aganst me.

Youve yet to catch me in a contradiction, or make some reasoned argument that my statements are incorrect.

Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

I'm not saying press charges against the cop I am saying as a public employee I expect a smile until an ass beating is warranted and I think he could have gave the reason for the stop with a smile at the point cop decides he is going to prove who has the bigger dick. Further if I was cops boss that would earn him a shitty review.

People complain if you smile at them during a traffic stop.

Posted: 5/28/2017 1:56:35 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
It's been explained several times.

There are two schools on traffic stops.

The old school is, license, registration (proof of insurance please)
Thank you. I stopped you today for (whatever)

New school

Hi, I'm officer so-and-so with the whatever department of whatever. I'm contacting you today because you (did something). Now, I'd like your license, registration, (and proof of insurance) please

Real world:

They are either gonna give you the license or not.

It is best to get their ID FIRST. That way, if they drive off after hurting you, you have their ID.

If they don't give the ID up, and wanna ask questions and but why but why, the stop needs to go in a whole different direction.

You as the motorist should never, ever, ever be given control of the stop. You don't get to decide where to stop. Or when / if to cough up ID. These things always end badly for all involved, and typically worse for the motorist than the officer.

My response had always been 'we'll discuss things AFTER you produce your identification.' I don't discuss things with people that decline to identify themselves. It's not safe, and a clear sign the stop is escalating.

And, you legally have to identify yourself to an officer conducting a criminal investigation. Period. Full stop. If you don't, that's an offense separate to the original reason for the encounter.

Just how it is, and how it needs to be.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
If the cop didn't tell him why he was stopped..........why???

It's been explained several times.

There are two schools on traffic stops.

The old school is, license, registration (proof of insurance please)
Thank you. I stopped you today for (whatever)

New school

Hi, I'm officer so-and-so with the whatever department of whatever. I'm contacting you today because you (did something). Now, I'd like your license, registration, (and proof of insurance) please

Real world:

They are either gonna give you the license or not.

It is best to get their ID FIRST. That way, if they drive off after hurting you, you have their ID.

If they don't give the ID up, and wanna ask questions and but why but why, the stop needs to go in a whole different direction.

You as the motorist should never, ever, ever be given control of the stop. You don't get to decide where to stop. Or when / if to cough up ID. These things always end badly for all involved, and typically worse for the motorist than the officer.

My response had always been 'we'll discuss things AFTER you produce your identification.' I don't discuss things with people that decline to identify themselves. It's not safe, and a clear sign the stop is escalating.

And, you legally have to identify yourself to an officer conducting a criminal investigation. Period. Full stop. If you don't, that's an offense separate to the original reason for the encounter.

Just how it is, and how it needs to be.

If you gave a new person and told me to train them on traffic stops, old school all the way.

Posted: 5/28/2017 2:00:03 PM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:

I see your points but I don't think "i pulled you over
for expired tags, running a stop sign whatever" impedes this process. Like you said they will ID or they won't the way I see it though it's either a talk like adults stop or a put a gun to their face stop. This appears to have been dick measuring stop.

How does this look to the public? It looks like a dick measuring contest.

View Quote

Mr. Joinder wasn't going to give up his ID regardless.

The sooner you understand that, the sooner it starts to make sense. I guarantee that's not that cop's first day on the job... he's dealt with a**holes like this before. When they start refusing to produce ID (or claiming they don't have any) it's usually because they have warrants, are trying to weasel out of the stop, or are going to try to bogart you. Neither can be permitted to stand.

Unless you want a passive/reactive police force, where officers back off at the first sign of resistance (especially if there's a racial angle), you better get off the Officers' tip when they are in a position where they have to force compliance. You might THINK that you want smile-and-wave policing (as BLM does), but you'd better think again... and be prepared for the whirlwind if the passive model replaces our existing model of policing.

It's called the Ferguson Effect. Google it.

Posted: 5/28/2017 2:00:36 PM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
I see your points but I don't think "i pulled you over
for expired tags, running a stop sign whatever" impedes this process. Like you said they will ID or they won't the way I see it though it's either a talk like adults stop or a put a gun to their face stop. This appears to have been dick measuring stop.

How does this look to the public? It looks like a dick measuring contest.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
If the cop didn't tell him why he was stopped..........why???

It's been explained several times.

There are two schools on traffic stops.

The old school is, license, registration (proof of insurance please)
Thank you. I stopped you today for (whatever)

New school

Hi, I'm officer so-and-so with the whatever department of whatever. I'm contacting you today because you (did something). Now, I'd like your license, registration, (and proof of insurance) please

Real world:

They are either gonna give you the license or not.

It is best to get their ID FIRST. That way, if they drive off after hurting you, you have their ID.

If they don't give the ID up, and wanna ask questions and but why but why, the stop needs to go in a whole different direction.

You as the motorist should never, ever, ever be given control of the stop. You don't get to decide where to stop. Or when / if to cough up ID. These things always end badly for all involved, and typically worse for the motorist than the officer.

My response had always been 'we'll discuss things AFTER you produce your identification.' I don't discuss things with people that decline to identify themselves. It's not safe, and a clear sign the stop is escalating.

And, you legally have to identify yourself to an officer conducting a criminal investigation. Period. Full stop. If you don't, that's an offense separate to the original reason for the encounter.

Just how it is, and how it needs to be.

I see your points but I don't think "i pulled you over
for expired tags, running a stop sign whatever" impedes this process. Like you said they will ID or they won't the way I see it though it's either a talk like adults stop or a put a gun to their face stop. This appears to have been dick measuring stop.

How does this look to the public? It looks like a dick measuring contest.

That is because you have never done the job. Many of us have.

I will inform the person why I stopped them AFTER they produce their DL. If you tell them first it will the majority of times lead to street side court and them not releasing the ID till after much discussion. Usually have to as in this case have to threaten to arrest them in order actually get it.

Posted: 5/28/2017 2:01:53 PM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
I wouldn't.

I'm surprised, honestly. That guy didn't want to know why he was being stopped. He wanted to argue. Whatever the officer said the reason for the stop was, he was going to think, hell naw, I dint do that, so I don't owe this guy jack shit. Then it goes down hill from there.

If he had said, sir, you ran the stop sign, what do you think the next thing you heard would've been?

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

I wouldn't.

I'm surprised, honestly. That guy didn't want to know why he was being stopped. He wanted to argue. Whatever the officer said the reason for the stop was, he was going to think, hell naw, I dint do that, so I don't owe this guy jack shit. Then it goes down hill from there.

If he had said, sir, you ran the stop sign, what do you think the next thing you heard would've been?

The guy knew why he was being stopped. He stopped in the middle of the road after he noticed the officer.

Classic.

Posted: 5/28/2017 2:04:24 PM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:

People complain if you smile at them during a traffic stop.

View Quote

Bingo.

Posted: 5/28/2017 2:06:56 PM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
People complain if you smile at them during a traffic stop.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

Thats a lot of work to try to pretend youre correct.

Youre not, though.

So now youre pretending that if i quote a discussion of some point, but do not say something about the entire quote, then you get to tell me what i think about the part i did not speak to? Is that the way this works?

No wonder you persist in thinking youre doing well.

You could really use a clue.

Ive been utterly consistent, clear, and correct.

The fourth amendment doesnt say, nor has it ever been held to require, that probable cause be stated by an investigating officer to the accused at any point before an arrest. Because it doesnt require it. .

Its also never been held to erase probable cause if the investigating officer doesnt disclose it.

It doesnt matter what you "think", amd your posts confirm thst youre using that term loosely. Your subjective thoughts on what cops should have to do is neither relevant to a critique of this cop's actions, not is it interesting

My position does NOT require me to state a position on infraction versus criminal act, because the fourth amendment doesnt require it for a crime, which is what the courts are looking at in most reviews of this subject. If its not required for a suspected crime, then even if an infraction "should be" a crime, it is not a requirement that a cop state probable cause on the roadside.

And, of course, practically speaking, it solves nothing. The combative people are simply going to proclsim that they didnt do whatever the cop says he saw them do.

Stop trying to slice up my posts in some half assed crusade to pretend something is "funny as hell" or that you get to use my words aganst me.

Youve yet to catch me in a contradiction, or make some reasoned argument that my statements are incorrect.

Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

I'm not saying press charges against the cop I am saying as a public employee I expect a smile until an ass beating is warranted and I think he could have gave the reason for the stop with a smile at the point cop decides he is going to prove who has the bigger dick. Further if I was cops boss that would earn him a shitty review.

People complain if you smile at them during a traffic stop.

They find it offensive you take pleasure in seeing them stopped.

Posted: 5/28/2017 2:12:46 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:

The guy knew why he was being stopped. He stopped in the middle of the road after he noticed the officer.

Classic.

View Quote

Yep.

I like the asshats that keep driving when you've lit them up, and only stop juuuuust on the other side of some railroad or streetcar tracks, hoping you'll either park on the tracks, or park on the other side of them, and give them extra room/time escape.

Or the ones who try to partially pull-over, or pull in at an angle in a turn-off, with their ass-end sticking out, so you can't quite see the driver's door, and you're forced to expose yourself to greater risk from traffic if you actually want to circle left behind the vehicle to see them.

Or the ones who pull over just on the other side of a busy intersection, so there's no room to get behind them without blocking the intersection. They're hoping your cruiser blocks traffic, or gets hit... or you're distracted enough by the traffic that they can make a move, or you'll be distracted enough to cut the stop short, or not look around as hard as you otherwise would.

People in the hood absolutely do things like that on purpose.

Posted: 5/28/2017 3:12:07 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:
..., this is just another episode of When Assholes Collide.

View Quote

I am disappointed to see so many post this wrong comment.

The Officer did everything right. He was professional, reasonably polite, and followed department procedures. Even the ACLU Commies admitted that he was legally correct.

When someone decides to argue and fight with a police officer on the side of the road, they are the one in the wrong, not the Officer.

Posted: 5/28/2017 3:18:51 PM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
I am disappointed to see so many post this wrong comment.

The Officer did everything right. He was professional, reasonably polite, and followed department procedures. Even the ACLU Commies admitted that he was legally correct.

When someone decides to argue and fight with a police officer on the side of the road, they are the one in the wrong, not the Officer.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
..., this is just another episode of When Assholes Collide.

I am disappointed to see so many post this wrong comment.

The Officer did everything right. He was professional, reasonably polite, and followed department procedures. Even the ACLU Commies admitted that he was legally correct.

When someone decides to argue and fight with a police officer on the side of the road, they are the one in the wrong, not the Officer.

Agree.

The one and only asshole was the driver that opted to violate the law.

Posted: 5/28/2017 3:19:03 PM EDT

[#46]

That is a prime example of assholes colliding. At any point either of those men could have de-escalated that situation. Instead they both wanted to roll around on the ground.

Posted: 5/28/2017 3:25:30 PM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:
That is a prime example of assholes colliding. At any point either of those men could have de-escalated that situation. Instead they both wanted to roll around on the ground.

View Quote

Driver was in the wrong, and decided to push it. If you think that's a brutal, power-tripping cop, you haven't been around very long.

The driver knew he had to give up his license, but he decided to go full sovereign... and P Barnes was willing to oblige him. He got PRECISELY what he was asking for.

A stupid prize was awarded, and deservedly so.

Posted: 5/28/2017 3:25:43 PM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:
The cop is a moron. So is the driver. I put more blame on the cop though. He should have been more professional and less inclined to violence over stupid shit. He massively overreacted in my opinion. Seems to be a theme in US law enforcement at this point. Escalating to the point of violence over minor stuff than can and should be handled peacefully.

View Quote

How would you have handled this? Let him go in order to set the next police officer this guy interacts with up for failure?

Posted: 5/28/2017 3:35:13 PM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:

How would you have handled this? Let him go in order to set the next police officer this guy interacts with up for failure?

View Quote

GD has NO EARTHLY IDEA what they want from their local LE.

They don't know or understand what they're looking at, and have no idea what kinds of concrete changes/policies they'd write to make it better (while still having effective policing)... they just know that they don't like it.

Posted: 5/28/2017 3:39:28 PM EDT

[#50]

Quote History

Quoted:

Let's just get to the point fuck the legal issue. Is this how you handle your stops or would you just be the adult in the room and tell the motherfucker why you stopped him?

I'm not saying press charges against the cop I am saying as a public employee I expect a smile until an ass beating is warranted and I think he could have gave the reason for the stop with a smile at the point cop decides he is going to prove who has the bigger dick. Further if I was cops boss that would earn him a shitty review.

View Quote

that's where you're wrong: I don't usually smile until it's time to kick ass.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Dash cam of Michigan Cop Shattering Car Window After Driver Refused To Give ID (Page 9 of 12)

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