Daniel Defense furloughs employees - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Daniel Defense furloughs employees (Page 2 of 4)

Posted: 7/31/2009 9:18:02 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
While I agree DD makes amazing products, they are way out of touch with regard to their prices. Lower the price 20%, make up the difference in volume sold. Why can't manufactures figure this out? It is business 101.

You ever watched the "Pitchmen" show? Almost every one of the inventors wanted to charge a ridiculous amount for their product and refused to budge on price. It's like they think their product is the greatest thing ever, and take it as a personal insult if it's sold cheap.

Posted: 7/31/2009 9:21:00 AM EDT

[#2]

They should be able to bounce back. The Obama sale has ended and the economy has caught up with the rest of them. Most seem to have purchased AR's for spec resale and about 7% will start to show up as resales before deer season.

Unless we get another comment from the Administration. Then it's back to the roller coster.

My bet is that the Hammer Forging project took more cash and time than expected and by the tiime it was ready, the market tanked.. Now what do you do with 50,000 Ar barrels?

Market Saturation seemed to hit about 3 weeks ago. Now the distributors have the pipelines full and the tap is turned off.
Look for some fire sales soon!

Just my two cents worth.

Posted: 7/31/2009 9:24:38 AM EDT

[#3]

Making the ugliest AR-15 out there might be part of their problem. I remember back when Obama was being weapon salesman of the decade you could still find the DD AR in stock everywhere but nothing else.

Daniel said he postponed the layoffs as long as he could: "Layoffs, in my mind, they're very personal. These people's families are involved, and their income, and their way of life. It's not like just turning a machine off. It has real complications to those people and their families."

Sounds like a good man...I know exactly this feeling when my home building business went defunct....I still keep our admin assist on doing practically anything from painting/cleaning our house, working in our store, to washing cars because I don't have heart to let her go with 3 small children.

Posted: 7/31/2009 9:26:52 AM EDT

[#4]

they ramped up and got into the complete rifle game too late and invested too much to do it. Hope they pull through.

Posted: 7/31/2009 4:02:25 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Making the ugliest AR-15 out there might be part of their problem. I remember back when Obama was being weapon salesman of the decade you could still find the DD AR in stock everywhere but nothing else.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3418/3311826760_2da3d37a99_o.jpg

Which amounts to nothing more than the fact that the herd - in particular, those who were streaming through gun stores during that time frame - are more focused on form over function.

And to all those folks, here's a kind ... WTF ?

Posted: 7/31/2009 4:08:08 PM EDT

[#6]

I kind of like their rifle, but it costs way too much. New to the market with a complete firearm and they ask top tier dollar amount. Should have done like S&W and lure people in with good value, then start asking more.

Posted: 7/31/2009 4:18:07 PM EDT

[#7]

I wish them well and hope things turn around for them. i have friends there also.

Posted: 7/31/2009 4:52:45 PM EDT

[#8]

Best of luck to them but I hope a lot of people here now realize why more then a few firearm manufacturers didn't go nuts and overexpand and jack production like so many were screaming for them to do. THIS is the result of overexpansion and the subsequent collapse of demand. Nothing is more pricy then expensive machinery sitting idle with the payments still due.

Some here need to think about why some of the bigger AR companies didn't go nuts like some of the others and why they have been around for awhile. I still think, sans some looming ban, that firearm demand will drop as far as new production. They are a durable good, last for many years, and one really does not HAVE to have more then one or two.

This is also why I am not a big fan of proprietary AR models, if they go under, you are left with the possibility that one might be left with a "wall hanger" if the wrong part breaks.

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:08:19 PM EDT

[#9]

The DD AR15 is about the best thought out and executed AR15 there is. Being able to put a x200/300 light at the 12oclock position without sight interference is huge. Unfortunately it's too well thought out for the average AR buyer that only cares about looks. And someone that knows the 12oclock postion is space shuttle door gunner 1337 are going to build their own AR.

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:10:28 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
This is also why I am not a big fan of proprietary AR models, if they go under, you are left with the possibility that one might be left with a "wall hanger" if the wrong part breaks.

The DD ARs are not proprietary. They are just a high quality AR build with some great features at a reasonable price. You can slap any upper on a DD lower...any lower on a DD upper, replace the barrel, etc.

Of course, I don't know why anyone would do any of that to a good AR, but...

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:31:29 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:

This is also why I am not a big fan of proprietary AR models, if they go under, you are left with the possibility that one might be left with a "wall hanger" if the wrong part breaks.

The DD ARs are not proprietary. They are just a high quality AR build with some great features at a reasonable price. You can slap any upper on a DD lower...any lower on a DD upper, replace the barrel, etc.

Of course, I don't know why anyone would do any of that to a good AR, but...

Strychnine and I are friends outside this site. He is friendly with the guys at DD, not that I am unfriendly.

I think most highly of them, as well as their product. I have been shooting with some of those guys on more than one occasion.

All that being said, top tier equipment is out of the price range of most of us (especially right now).

This has been addressed, and as DD folks are exactly like us, I expect to see some top tier parts from them available to us pretty soon.

I have been trying to wheedle a stripped lower out of them for some time now, with no joy. Strychnine mentioned that to them, as well.

Their position makes sense: If they sell me a SL and I bolt on a Hesse parts kit, and sell it... they get the fall out.

Strychnine suggested that they sell SL with a unique SN... I think that 398769xxxSL would fit the bill. Website that says "SL" means we gaurantee the lower only and are not responsible for the stuff bolted onto it.

just so you all know what kind of folks I am talking about:

A few years back I shot my barrel loose. I didn't have access to a wrench at the time. I went by with my gun to their factory. No one there knew me. I talked with Jay Duncan, and he wanted to take a look at my rifle. I showed him the problem.

Remember... no one there knew me at all.

He had me take it over to the shop, and while he was giving me a tour, he had this ugly shop monkey named Joe work on my rifle. Bald headed, ugly MOFO that suggested that using a pipe wrench couldn't make it look any uglier than it was. Jay made him use real tools.

I shot an antelope in Wyoming a week later with that rifle... at 450 yards. I was withing 6" of POA. I brought sausage by their shop.

Joe and I have been shooting at Arfcom local shoots since then. I hold this company and it's employees in highest regard.

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:31:46 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This is also why I am not a big fan of proprietary AR models, if they go under, you are left with the possibility that one might be left with a "wall hanger" if the wrong part breaks.

The DD ARs are not proprietary. They are just a high quality AR build with some great features at a reasonable price. You can slap any upper on a DD lower...any lower on a DD upper, replace the barrel, etc.

Of course, I don't know why anyone would do any of that to a good AR, but...

I know, I'm talking about some of the piston type uppers out there.

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:42:24 PM EDT

[#13]

Sucks that they are going through this but I have no regrets for buying there DDM4. I dont care how many people think that it's ugly. I like it and that's all that matters.

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:45:58 PM EDT

[#14]

Their shit is overpriced anyway, come on $1500 for an AR.

I'll go buy a Colt 6920 instead..

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:46:55 PM EDT

[#15]

does it mean their Omega 7.0 will be on clearance???

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:47:29 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

One thing that's for sure - there are plenty of armchair quarterbacks here ...

Took the words right out of my mouth. I am a small business owner/operator. I wonder how many of these "business experts" have actually risked everything on an idea or had the confidence and conviction that they could do it better than the next guy. Cash reserves are a lot easier to talk about that to come up with. It takes cantelope balls to be financially responsible for your family and all of the families of your employees, while knowing that a wrong decision (or a decision made wrong by changing government policies) puts all of us on the street. Economic theory, whether from business school or from your ass, is not going to make a payroll for my 21 guys. All I am really saying is that we don't know the facts and are probably not qualified to second-guess DD's owners.

For you college boys, I got my degree at night school during and after soldiering. That college degree basicly qualified me to work for other people. Everything I need to run a business was learned OJT. The combat mind-set taught in places like the US Army and Thunder Ranch and numerous other courses will mentally prepare you to operate a small business a lot better than college.

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:48:40 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Making the ugliest AR-15 out there might be part of their problem. I remember back when Obama was being weapon salesman of the decade you could still find the DD AR in stock everywhere but nothing else.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3418/3311826760_2da3d37a99_o.jpg

Daniel said he postponed the layoffs as long as he could: "Layoffs, in my mind, they're very personal. These people's families are involved, and their income, and their way of life. It's not like just turning a machine off. It has real complications to those people and their families."

Sounds like a good man...I know exactly this feeling when my home building business went defunct....I still keep our admin assist on doing practically anything from painting/cleaning our house, working in our store, to washing cars because I don't have heart to let her go with 3 small children.

how's that any different than a Colt 6940?

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:53:26 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Why can't manufactures figure this out? It is business 101.

Because most of them never took Business 101, or hired anyone who has. Most are run by folks who took Lathe 101, or Mill 205, CNC 423, etc.

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:54:02 PM EDT

[#19]

Overpriced rifles.

Posted: 7/31/2009 5:58:06 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Simple. And this 'drop in sales' excuse is bullshit.

They hired as many employees as they needed to keep up with the skyrocketing demand so that they could profit from it as much as possible. They knew when they hired the majority of these people that they were going to be 'temporary' for as long as the demand was there. Anyone with an IQ over 40 would be able to realize that this wasn't going to last forever. Chalking it up to a 'drop in sales' is like winning the lottery one week, and then when you received your regular pay check the next week saying that you had a decrease in earnings. No shit.

Once that demand started to slow down and they were back at the level they were; they got rid of the employees they had around to meet the exceeded demand. I would love to know what the average amount of time the people they laid off had with the company. I am willing to bet that most of them had a start date from around OCT/NOV/DEC 08.

Common (yet shitty) business these days - I saw it first hand working for a mortgage company during the boom. We swelled to over 2k employees at one point and 18 months later, were down to 500.

I don't buy your scenario. That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with staffing to meet demand. I would recommend using temps or short contract employees to meet the short term or uncertain demand. Owning and running one's own small business is not easy and every small decision is fraught with large risk.

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:14:44 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
While I agree DD makes amazing products, they are way out of touch with regard to their prices. Lower the price 20%, make up the difference in volume sold. Why can't manufactures figure this out? It is business 101.

I purchased a YHM quad rail because I couldn't see spending twice as much for a DD rail. Both made from 6000 series aluminum, both anodized black, sure the DD looks a little cooler and is 3/4 of an ounce lighter, but it doesn't justify the price to me.

i did the EXACT same thing. nice product, but it's too high priced.

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:25:27 PM EDT

[#22]

You guys are focusing on whether or not their rifle was ugly or not.

Daniel Defense was a successful company before getting into making complete rifles. I believe they one a very large SOCOM contract over KAC in the past year or two. Don't they also have the ability to produce/forge barrels? With the shortage in barrels why aren't they pursuing that???

Personally, I like that rail because I like my support hand further out. However, the rifle itself was another run of the mill AR. A slightly flared mag well was the major differentiator IIRC

Hope they make it. Fewer manufacturers is NOT a good thing for consumers.

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:32:11 PM EDT

[#23]

It's sad but I think they got in the complete rifle game way, way too late and when they did they brought the wrong product . The fact that it was a well thought out package is irrelevant when most of the folks doing the buying have never heard of Daniel Defense or Larry Vickers.

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:34:02 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Making the ugliest AR-15 out there might be part of their problem. I remember back when Obama was being weapon salesman of the decade you could still find the DD AR in stock everywhere but nothing else.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3418/3311826760_2da3d37a99_o.jpg

Daniel said he postponed the layoffs as long as he could: "Layoffs, in my mind, they're very personal. These people's families are involved, and their income, and their way of life. It's not like just turning a machine off. It has real complications to those people and their families."

Sounds like a good man...I know exactly this feeling when my home building business went defunct....I still keep our admin assist on doing practically anything from painting/cleaning our house, working in our store, to washing cars because I don't have heart to let her go with 3 small children.

That's a practical and nicely outfitted rifle pictured IMHO. Nothing ugly about it. I think it's really good looking, actually. Carbine length rails are too small for some outfits. I have a PEQ2 mounted on the side of one of mine, (DD Omega rail) takes up that whole side. I can't put it on top because I have the Eotech 553 mounted far enough forward that I can have the magnifier flip mount mounted between the BUIS and the Eotech. I'd like to put a visible light on it too, but its just too much crap mounted on too little space, and it screws up the balance. I'd also like to be able to try my forward grip way out front to see if I like it there, but the rail stops at the FSB.

That rail would solve that problem nicely. And I think it looks good too.

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:37:30 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
What I do not get is how, and not DD in particular, but how can people not make it through a short slow time?

Sales are 'down' for 60 days, lay people off. UAW workers refuse to work for a few days (strike) "We are in danger of losing our house unless we get back to work". A bridge collapses due to a tanker explosion, the next day a gas station owner says he needs to lay people off.

Preparedness? Foolish business model? What are people doing?

I am not articulating this well enough, I know....sales are down, not gone.

Shitty business model. They run on credit and keep nothing in the bank. They've been sold the bullshit scam of having money in the bank means they aren't "investing in the company".

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:38:38 PM EDT

[#26]

Prices are too high...I can buy a Colt 6920 or 6940 much cheaper than they sell their stuff for...and it's a COLT. Only the strong will survive.

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:44:24 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Prices are too high...I can buy a Colt 6920 or 6940 much cheaper than they sell their stuff for...and it's a COLT. Only the strong will survive.

Which means no DIAS for you, no standard sized pins...etc. Boo Colt. I only own one, and it's my SP1 that I've had forever.

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:44:40 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
While I agree DD makes amazing products, they are way out of touch with regard to their prices. Lower the price 20%, make up the difference in volume sold. Why can't manufactures figure this out? It is business 101.

I purchased a YHM quad rail because I couldn't see spending twice as much for a DD rail. Both made from 6000 series aluminum, both anodized black, sure the DD looks a little cooler and is 3/4 of an ounce lighter, but it doesn't justify the price to me.

i did the EXACT same thing. nice product, but it's too high priced.

Agreed, they make very nice products, but for the price you can get another upper.

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:51:56 PM EDT

[#29]

People act like the new DD rail has so much extra space. Does it not have about the same amount of space as a standard 12" Lite rail? Can you not mount a Surefire X300 at the 12 o'clock position on a standard Lite rail? I am pretty sure you can do it. I think "MOST" people prefer the look of the "standard" DD Lite rails. I have said it before that if DD offered the same rifle, same accessories but included a standard Lite rail they could not keep them in stock at the current prices. Whether some of you agree or not, looks are a HUGE part of why people put their rifles together like they do. Anyone that says otherwise is just...............

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:55:36 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Prices are too high...I can buy a Colt 6920 or 6940 much cheaper than they sell their stuff for...and it's a COLT. Only the strong will survive.

Which means no DIAS for you, no standard sized pins...etc. Boo Colt. I only own one, and it's my SP1 that I've had forever.

Actually, the new ones come with standard size pins.

Posted: 7/31/2009 6:56:24 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Looks like they ramped up production and expanded quickly in order to keep up with the demand of the panic buying…

Well, the panic buying is pretty much over and the economy is in the tank, so people don’t have the tertiary income to spend even in a non-panic environment.

They probably need to downsize to their “pre-panic” production / employee level and they will be fine.

It’s a shame that you can’t hire temps or day labor in the machining industry.

I am in construction and site development.

When we land a larger than normal contract we rent the equipment and use a lot of day labor because we know that the expanded capacity will only be required for the duration of the contract.

I don’t know how you could apply that to the machining industry… maybe sub out the required production increase to a competent manufacturer for the duration of the increase in demand???????

I can’t wait until this slow down hits the ammo industry…

Well trained and experienced machinists generally don't have a need to work as temps or day labor. Seriously? You expect skilled labor with 5+ years experience to work for less than going rate wages, zero retirement, insurance, or other benefits? Or is it that you expect to be able to bring anyone in off the street, give them 5 minutes training, and have them make good parts? Either way,

The only option is subcontracting to another shop with not only the proper machines, but the production capability to meet your demand. Simply because they have the machines doesn't mean they can do the job... Further, they probably aren't going to be enthusiastic about investing their own time and money into designing and building fixtures for a short term contract at what will likely be an already low profit margin....and then there is tooling to consider, which may be specialized to a particular part or family of parts.

Posted: 7/31/2009 7:03:16 PM EDT

[#32]

This thread needs a gratuitous DD pic.

There, I feel better.

Posted: 7/31/2009 7:13:40 PM EDT

[#33]

Maybe they could just keep working by taking up the slack VLTOR has. In other words tool and make VLTOR products.. lol

VLTOR doesnt seem to be doing a good job of doing that.

Posted: 7/31/2009 7:21:42 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

... Whether some of you agree or not, looks are a HUGE part of why people airsofters and goobers put their rifles together like they do. Anyone that says otherwise is just...............

fixed.

Posted: 7/31/2009 7:28:29 PM EDT

[#35]

I hope DD springs back, they make good shit......

however, I said months ago that this huge panic buy was going to be bad
for industry and that some small companies would not make it through the
following flat market. Hopefully we don't see more affected in a similar manner....

Posted: 7/31/2009 7:46:01 PM EDT

[#36]

Crap................

I just bought a DD XV M4 last week.

It has not made it to my FFL yet.

I wish them luck........and maybe a new CFO / financial consultant type?

I was looking at others - S&W M&P, Bravo Co. build, LMT, CMMG, but the cold hammer forged barrel in 1/7 for a good $ convinced me.

I looked at Colts for about $200 more (with standard sized pins) - but..............I have not drank the CD Kool-Aid.

Hopefully I will have a customer service department at DD if I ever need it - though I probably won't.

Worse case......parts is parts.

Posted: 7/31/2009 9:37:40 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This is also why I am not a big fan of proprietary AR models, if they go under, you are left with the possibility that one might be left with a "wall hanger" if the wrong part breaks.

The DD ARs are not proprietary. They are just a high quality AR build with some great features at a reasonable price. You can slap any upper on a DD lower...any lower on a DD upper, replace the barrel, etc.

Of course, I don't know why anyone would do any of that to a good AR, but...

Strychnine and I are friends outside this site. He is friendly with the guys at DD, not that I am unfriendly.

I think most highly of them, as well as their product. I have been shooting with some of those guys on more than one occasion.

All that being said, top tier equipment is out of the price range of most of us (especially right now).

This has been addressed, and as DD folks are exactly like us, I expect to see some top tier parts from them available to us pretty soon.

I have been trying to wheedle a stripped lower out of them for some time now, with no joy. Strychnine mentioned that to them, as well.

Their position makes sense: If they sell me a SL and I bolt on a Hesse parts kit, and sell it... they get the fall out.

Strychnine suggested that they sell SL with a unique SN... I think that 398769xxxSL would fit the bill. Website that says "SL" means we gaurantee the lower only and are not responsible for the stuff bolted onto it.

just so you all know what kind of folks I am talking about:

A few years back I shot my barrel loose. I didn't have access to a wrench at the time. I went by with my gun to their factory. No one there knew me. I talked with Jay Duncan, and he wanted to take a look at my rifle. I showed him the problem.

Remember... no one there knew me at all.

He had me take it over to the shop, and while he was giving me a tour, he had this ugly shop monkey named Joe work on my rifle. Bald headed, ugly MOFO that suggested that using a pipe wrench couldn't make it look any uglier than it was. Jay made him use real tools.

I shot an antelope in Wyoming a week later with that rifle... at 450 yards. I was withing 6" of POA. I brought sausage by their shop.

Joe and I have been shooting at Arfcom local shoots since then. I hold this company and it's employees in highest regard.

+1 on all that...I personally know folks there (at DD) and it sucks.....mark my words -when the crunch hits the other black rifle makers/assemblers it will be worse than this for some of them . And if you know who tries to ram thru anything relating to the 2nd the whole mad process (panic buying) starts all over again.
....All the armchair quarterback, fake poseur- operator, pseudo -tacticool airsoft drivers and tier-one spec weenies out there arfcom world don't have the collective pair big enough to try to manufacture let alone start a business like this- so to judge them (DD) is probably above their pay grade.
There I said it....
-and one day when in the good ole U.S.of A we don't manufacture anything anymore.... we can bitch about China holding the note on us.
Flame on......

Posted: 8/1/2009 2:30:17 AM EDT

[#38]

So, let me think....

Some said the DD AR is ugly and some said the long rail is very useful....

So...

Why couldn't they make one version w/ the short rail for the Tactical Cool folks and one version with the long rail for the really Tactical Cool folks?
All it take is to change one freaking part! How hard is that? I also agree about the high price.

They need a new marketing dept.

Posted: 8/1/2009 3:25:29 AM EDT

[#39]

Sad. I hope the employees bounce back.

DD makes good stuff.

I think will order another Omega rail. Direct from the company.

Posted: 8/1/2009 3:36:09 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I like the DD Defense Omega 7.0, 9.0 and 12.0.

I did not like the ugly mess that they hung on that complete rifle.

I don't get it, folks....

I hear people talking about how "ugly" that rail is. Have those of you complaining about how "ugly" it is ever tried actually clearing rooms with a carbine in low light? Have you had the chance to see how beautiful it is to have an X300 mounted in front of the front sight so that you no longer have a bunch of clearance issues to worry about when it comes to using the light? Have you stopped to ponder how beautiful it is to know that when your barrel is clear of an obstacle so is your light? Or to realize that a chunk of the hotspot of your light is no longer chopped out by hunks of the rifle that are in the beam?

I know tactical use of these weapons isn't what drives the gun market, but this is just overboard.

If I created a weapon that shot a disintigrator beam that killed out to 1000 yards and gravity and wind had no effect on it, but it looked like a pink dildo; I would bet most people would buy a Ruger Judge instead.

Posted: 8/1/2009 7:41:21 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I like the DD Defense Omega 7.0, 9.0 and 12.0.

I did not like the ugly mess that they hung on that complete rifle.

I don't get it, folks....

I hear people talking about how "ugly" that rail is. Have those of you complaining about how "ugly" it is ever tried actually clearing rooms with a carbine in low light? Have you had the chance to see how beautiful it is to have an X300 mounted in front of the front sight so that you no longer have a bunch of clearance issues to worry about when it comes to using the light? Have you stopped to ponder how beautiful it is to know that when your barrel is clear of an obstacle so is your light? Or to realize that a chunk of the hotspot of your light is no longer chopped out by hunks of the rifle that are in the beam?

I know tactical use of these weapons isn't what drives the gun market, but this is just overboard.

If I created a weapon that shot a disintigrator beam that killed out to 1000 yards and gravity and wind had no effect on it, but it looked like a pink dildo; I would bet most people would buy a Ruger Judge instead.

Exactly. The vast majority of people out their buy ARs with a large percentage of their focus being on looks. Daniel Defense made a HUGE mistake by not releasing the more popular basic

variation first. The railed version should have come out later as a special option. I don't care how functional it is, it was a niche product, rather than one that appealed to the masses. Most people

either thought it was ugly or had no need for that particular setup. I know I didn't since I don't use a light on any of my ARs. If they had released the basic first I would have considered getting one

but by the time it came out I had already bought the ARs I could afford. I do hope them the best though. They make incredibly good products even if they are out of touch with consumer trends.

Posted: 8/1/2009 10:43:06 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I like the DD Defense Omega 7.0, 9.0 and 12.0.

I did not like the ugly mess that they hung on that complete rifle.

I don't get it, folks....

I hear people talking about how "ugly" that rail is. Have those of you complaining about how "ugly" it is ever tried actually clearing rooms with a carbine in low light? Have you had the chance to see how beautiful it is to have an X300 mounted in front of the front sight so that you no longer have a bunch of clearance issues to worry about when it comes to using the light? Have you stopped to ponder how beautiful it is to know that when your barrel is clear of an obstacle so is your light? Or to realize that a chunk of the hotspot of your light is no longer chopped out by hunks of the rifle that are in the beam?

I know tactical use of these weapons isn't what drives the gun market, but this is just overboard.

If I created a weapon that shot a disintigrator beam that killed out to 1000 yards and gravity and wind had no effect on it, but it looked like a pink dildo; I would bet most people would buy a Ruger Judge instead.

I would buy one and hang it out of my pants.

Jay

Posted: 8/1/2009 11:16:08 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Their rails are about the best available.

I've purchased 2 DD rails, an old school 12.0 and Lite 9.0. Both were crooked. The replacement Lite 9.0 I was sent direct from DD was crooked. Nothing to do with incorrect installation or abuse. Prior to installation, looking down the length of the 12 o'clock rail, it was obviously not straight. DD customer service was very helpful and refunded the purchase price of the Lite 9.0.

A local shop has a rifle with the newest DD rail factory installed. A brand new rifle, never shot, abused... the fore end rail is also crooked.

Posted: 8/1/2009 11:29:50 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Prices are too high...I can buy a Colt 6920 or 6940 much cheaper than they sell their stuff for...and it's a COLT. Only the strong will survive.

Which means no DIAS for you, no standard sized pins...etc. Boo Colt. I only own one, and it's my SP1 that I've had forever.

Wrong on the pins, and no one owns a DIAS anyway.

Posted: 8/1/2009 11:31:33 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Their rails are about the best available.

I've purchased 2 DD rails, an old school 12.0 and Lite 9.0. Both were crooked. The replacement Lite 9.0 I was sent direct from DD was crooked. Nothing to do with incorrect installation or abuse. Prior to installation, looking down the length of the 12 o'clock rail, it was obviously not straight. DD customer service was very helpful and refunded the purchase price of the Lite 9.0.

A local shop has a rifle with the newest DD rail factory installed. A brand new rifle, never shot, abused... the fore end rail is also crooked.

Really? I have 3 of their rails and they are all top-freaking-notch perfect. I especially love the Omega rails. Several of my friends also are sporting their rails, and they are also perfect as expected. Are you sure you didn't buy airsoft fakes? I do not like to call "BS" on people, I think it's basically fighting words to call someone a liar. I just have a really hard time believing that. Are you one of the guys that got canned?

Posted: 8/1/2009 11:34:36 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Prices are too high...I can buy a Colt 6920 or 6940 much cheaper than they sell their stuff for...and it's a COLT. Only the strong will survive.

Which means no DIAS for you, no standard sized pins...etc. Boo Colt. I only own one, and it's my SP1 that I've had forever.

Wrong on the pins, and no one owns a DIAS anyway.

Um, I was corrected a couple of days ago, but thanks. I stopped looking at Colt's in 1991 or so. And maybe nobody you know has a DIAS, but that is not true with me. There sure are a lot of guys who don't have a DIAS using something that looks a whole lot like them at the MG shoots here in CO.

Posted: 8/1/2009 11:40:47 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Prices are too high...I can buy a Colt 6920 or 6940 much cheaper than they sell their stuff for...and it's a COLT. Only the strong will survive.

Which means no DIAS for you, no standard sized pins...etc. Boo Colt. I only own one, and it's my SP1 that I've had forever.

Wrong on the pins, and no one owns a DIAS anyway.

Um, I was corrected a couple of days ago, but thanks. I stopped looking at Colt's in 1991 or so. And maybe nobody you know has a DIAS, but that is not true with me. There sure are a lot of guys who don't have a DIAS using something that looks a whole lot like them at the MG shoots here in CO.

How many RDIAS's are in the wild? 10K? RDIAS owners are a small fraction of the AR market.

Quoted:
Really? I have 3 of their rails and they are all top-freaking-notch perfect. I especially love the Omega rails. Several of my friends also are sporting their rails, and they are also perfect as expected. Are you sure you didn't buy airsoft fakes? I do not like to call "BS" on people, I think it's basically fighting words to call someone a liar. I just have a really hard time believing that. Are you one of the guys that got canned?

Whether you believe me or not is of no consequence.

Posted: 8/1/2009 11:42:30 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
I think this shows what one single poor design decision can do. They misread the market and released a rifle that was aesthetically trashed, at a price point far, far too high, they sold too few of the product, were unable to get footing in an already crowded market, and will probably end that segment of their business soon.

$1600? For a standard M4 from an untested manufacturer with a ugly rail system (that they mass produce for a cost of well under $100 a rail).

If they would have taken those rifles, dropped the price $300, and slapped a DD light 7" rail on it, they would have sold out. Hell, I might have even bought one.

It amuses me too how much the prices on these need to fall before people would even start buying them at a decent pace. Probably $1000 or less at this point.

Man you are 100% correct. Their shot show display was PHENOMINAL, but It showcased the ugliest weapon of the show with the worst profit margins and buy-in as well (100+ guns to make about 15%). They make a nice product (rails and rail accessories), but they could have capitalized durring the boom by releasing lowers and uppers. Complete guns were not required.

Posted: 8/1/2009 11:56:47 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Prices are too high...I can buy a Colt 6920 or 6940 much cheaper than they sell their stuff for...and it's a COLT. Only the strong will survive.

Which means no DIAS for you, no standard sized pins...etc. Boo Colt. I only own one, and it's my SP1 that I've had forever.

Wrong on the pins, and no one owns a DIAS anyway.

Um, I was corrected a couple of days ago, but thanks. I stopped looking at Colt's in 1991 or so. And maybe nobody you know has a DIAS, but that is not true with me. There sure are a lot of guys who don't have a DIAS using something that looks a whole lot like them at the MG shoots here in CO.

How many RDIAS's are in the wild? 10K? RDIAS owners are a small fraction of the AR market.

Quoted:
Really? I have 3 of their rails and they are all top-freaking-notch perfect. I especially love the Omega rails. Several of my friends also are sporting their rails, and they are also perfect as expected. Are you sure you didn't buy airsoft fakes? I do not like to call "BS" on people, I think it's basically fighting words to call someone a liar. I just have a really hard time believing that. Are you one of the guys that got canned?

Whether you believe me or not is of no consequence.

Great then, I'll just flat out call you a bald-faced liar who cannot afford a DD rail system, or a DIAS, and makes up stories on the web to assuage his envy. Airsoft fakes never work on real guns, sorry.

ETA: I can only find one case of an install problem with a DD rail, a 14.0. Nothing else but glowing reviews everywhere. Odd that you seem to have seen the only three crooked rails of all the posters on the web, no? I also found a similar story to yours, but the rails were perfect, they just shipped the wrong one first, the 12.0. http://www.ar-15.com/posts.php?forum=19&topic=1024&r=1280

Posted: 8/1/2009 11:59:30 PM EDT

[#50]

If I ever had to get a pay cut, with furloughs, I'd at least get to go home. As opposed to working the same hours with less pay, or worse getting fired.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Daniel Defense furloughs employees (Page 2 of 4)

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