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Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:17:17 AM EDT
[#1]
This is the kind of crazy third world crap that happens under dictators like Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Not here in America under a Republican president.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:19:06 AM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
And what's even worse is that many of the firearms the BATF stole (yes, this was theft as far as I'm concerned) were owned by employees and customers.  The customers (at least) have nothing to do with this situation, but since their items were in CA's possession at the time of the raid, they were stolen along with their other inventory.  Pretty sure those customers can't do anything about it, either, until this is resolved.


Two questions:

- Are the owners of the guns that didn't belong to CavArms (the employees and consigners) able to get involved with the civil asset forfeiture hearing?

- Will the ATF have to open the sealed affidavit at the civil asset forfeiture hearing to show the judge why the firearms were seized?
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:23:09 AM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
What a shame the government has become this powerful.  



As I have discovered and mentioned on this site:

There is a "system"...
You are either part of the "system" or you are not...
If you are part of the "system" and are not a congressman, you will at sometime not be part of the "system"...
The "system" is setup to help those in the "system"...
If you are not part of the "system" and any person in the "system" has a problem with you, you will find yourself in a uncomfortable situation...
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:23:17 AM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.


There is no prosecution yet, and the Sixth Amendment does not limit the length of an investigation before charges are formally filed.

If you're going to cite the constitution you would do well to actually know what you're talking about.

BTW, even if the sixth did apply here, which it does not, the speedy trial limitation is a hell of a lot longer than 50 days.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:24:12 AM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
DAY 51




I replied to one Of McCains "send money for the campaign" a reply with something to the effect of : "show me what you can do for gun owners and ATF's practices, like CavArms in your own state....."   NO reply from them



No reply to my concerns = Go get your contribution some-freaking-where else!


Do you honestly expect a presidential candidate to try to influence or interfere with an ongoing federal investigation?

Come on.

ETA: I'm pretty sure those emails come from an unmonitored email address.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:30:58 AM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
My God, day 50 and no one is any the wiser as to why this happened


Shameful.

Simply shameful.


The ATF better have a stellar reason to do this, but really, will it matter if they don't? I doubt they'll see much trouble from the feds over it.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:35:46 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:37:34 AM EDT
[#8]
 

For our friends at CAV Arms, and for our belief in the country we live in.
 

Stick in there and prevail.  Give us hope that the country our military is defending is worth the price.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:45:22 AM EDT
[#9]
Keep up the faith CavArms!


This is a perfect example of how quickly the .gov can take away your livelihood.


sst7
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:49:08 AM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
DAY 51




I replied to one Of McCains "send money for the campaign" a reply with something to the effect of : "show me what you can do for gun owners and ATF's practices, like CavArms in your own state....."   NO reply from them



No reply to my concerns = Go get your contribution some-freaking-where else!


Do you honestly expect a presidential candidate to try to influence or interfere with an ongoing federal investigation?

Come on.


Looking into something is NOT interfering with an investigation. Unless there is some type of pressure put on a federal agency, there is no influence being pressed.

It is the same as when politicians meet and accept freebies from lobbyists. If there is no quid pro quo, you can't say there was any influence put on anyone

When there is an investigation of an illegal alien accused of narcotic traffic, I am sure plenty of politicians inquire about what is going on.

They do it to have their ethnic constituency see how much they care for them (ie. get their votes).Why can't they do it here?


No interference, no attempt to influence. Just a friendly WTF is going on here with some of the PEOPLE I am supposed to represent?



Fair enough, but when you ask what is he going to DO, it looks like you are asking for more.

It's very difficult to walk the tightrope between mere inquiry and attempting to influence.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:49:54 AM EDT
[#11]
We no longer have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

We have a government against the people.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 5:56:26 AM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
We no longer have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

We have a government against the people.


agreed
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 6:04:31 AM EDT
[#13]
I guess this is what they call "need to know"......
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 6:04:36 AM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
We no longer have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

We have a government against the people.


agreed



At what piont do you stand up and say enough  ! ! ! ! !
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 6:12:10 AM EDT
[#15]
Asset Forfeiture is BIG BUSINESS to the government.

Read this report if you guys want the red curtain of blood to descend before your eyes.

www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/ATF/a0637/intro.htm

Link Posted: 4/17/2008 6:40:41 AM EDT
[#16]
height=8
Quoted:
The rays getting through my tinfoil hat make me think you shouldn't have based the business on selling military style weapons to civilians.hat?
~BakerMike
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 6:45:36 AM EDT
[#17]

Originally Posted By Hard Rock:
Even if no one at Cav Arms is ever charged with a crime, the financial losses due to legal fees and the civil asset forfeiture could be enough to drive them out of business.  Not many companies have the ability to recover from that large a loss of cash and inventory.


Thats the MO of the ATF.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 6:46:11 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:
Asset Forfeiture is BIG BUSINESS to the government.

Read this report if you guys want the red curtain of blood to descend before your eyes.

www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/ATF/a0637/intro.htm



An interesting distinction between "valued property" and "unvalued property":


Valued properties are items that can be legally sold in the United States such as vehicles, vessels, real property, jewelry, and alcohol. Non-valued properties are items that either do not have a legal market in the United States or a saleable value to the federal government such as firearms, silencers, ammunition, explosives, and tobacco. These non-valued items are disposed of using ATF-approved methods.


Link Posted: 4/17/2008 7:11:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Tag for updates.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 7:13:29 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 7:38:54 AM EDT
[#21]
Sent to my reps:


Senator,

I am writing to voice my displeasure with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) regarding an ongoing investigation into Cavalry Arms Corperation.

On February 27, 2008, agents of the BATFE executed a federal search warrant on the business premises of Cavalry and on the private residence of its CEO, Shawn Nealon.  The federal government seized business files, computers, and inventory from Cavalry during the execution of the search warrant.

To this day, the BATFE has yet to share with the company details of the investigation or the cause precipitating the search warrant. Cavalry Arms is cooperating with the federal investigation. To date no accusations of wrongdoing have been filed against Cavalry or any of its employees regarding alleged illegal activity.

It has now been fifty one days since the raid and siezure of records, computers, and inventory, which has severely hindered this company from participating in LAWFUL COMMERCE.  I respectfully request that you look into this situation, and perhaps find out why the BATFE is delaying so long in producing any charges.

I would hate to see the BATFE running small businesses into bankruptcy become a normal occurance as a substitute for failed gun-control measures.  Please show me that the Federal Government does not act in such an authoritarian manner as it appears to be doing in this situation.

Thank you for your time.  I hope to hear from you soon regarding this issue.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 7:40:47 AM EDT
[#22]
Continued prayers for Cav Arms.

Keep up the good work guys.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 7:43:09 AM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Fair enough, but when you ask what is he going to DO, it looks like you are asking for more.

It's very difficult to walk the tightrope between mere inquiry and attempting to influence. Less of a "tightrope" than you realize... Unless your objective is to prevent an inquiry...


I would at the very least, like to see him look into ATF's policies and their practices in general ,like the IRS is sometimes looked into by Congress; or like the FDA is often "investigated" when aspirins are not round enough or not white enough

I would like one of the Congressional committes -like the ones that sometimes make "fact finding missions" to be sure Serbia,Haiti or Israel (Palestinians)  is not oppressing the  citizens under their government.........while our citizens are getting steamrolled by some of our own agencies

I would like McCain -or anyone else with the Constitution in mind- look to see if ANY Federal agencies are overstepping their role as regulators/enforcers of the laws they are entrusted withinin their jurisdiction.

That would be good for a start


What would the best way to effectively use the huge mass of mostly likeminded people here to bring attention to this issue? A discussion on how to do this without doing further damage to Cav Arms seems in order. I'm not talking about babbling rants, but a well thought-out plan to involve folks who may be willing to help.

This is a perfect example of abuse and this could be a good chance to illustrate it, IF done properly. Any good ideas on how to do this?

I contacted my Congressman (Joe Barton) and received a pretty much canned letter back saying how much he supports the 2nd Amendment and nothing regarding the actual issue that I asked his response on...

We need to figure out how to play the game (More effectively) that the libtards are winning.
 
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 7:47:00 AM EDT
[#24]
"Civil asset forfeiture has allowed police to view all of America as some giant national K-Mart, where prices are not just lower, but non-existent — a sort of law enforcement 'pick-and-don't-pay."

—U.S. Representative Henry Hyde,
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 7:47:02 AM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Fair enough, but when you ask what is he going to DO, it looks like you are asking for more.

It's very difficult to walk the tightrope between mere inquiry and attempting to influence. Less of a "tightrope" than you realize... Unless your objective is to prevent an inquiry...


I would at the very least, like to see him look into ATF's policies and their practices in general ,like the IRS is sometimes looked into by Congress; or like the FDA is often "investigated" when aspirins are not round enough or not white enough

I would like one of the Congressional committes -like the ones that sometimes make "fact finding missions" to be sure Serbia,Haiti or Israel (Palestinians)  is not oppressing the  citizens under their government.........while our citizens are getting steamrolled by some of our own agencies

I would like McCain -or anyone else with the Constitution in mind- look to see if ANY Federal agencies are overstepping their role as regulators/enforcers of the laws they are entrusted withinin their jurisdiction.

That would be good for a start


What would the best way to effectively use the huge mass of mostly likeminded people here to bring attention to this issue? A discussion on how to do this without doing further damage to Cav Arms seems in order. I'm not talking about babbling rants, but a well thought-out plan to involve folks who may be willing to help.

This is a perfect example of abuse and this could be a good chance to illustrate it, IF done properly. Any good ideas on how to do this?

I contacted my Congressman (Joe Barton) and received a pretty much canned letter back saying how much he supports the 2nd Amendment and nothing regarding the actual issue that I asked his response on...

We need to figure out how to play the game (More effectively) that the libtards are winning.
 


I think it would be a good idea to wait for the investigation to conclude before saying that this is a perfect example of abuse.

I'm sure Cav has done nothing wrong, but it would make the gun community look terrible if we flood politicians with letters decrying the persecution of Cav Arms and it turned out that they did something illegal.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 7:50:42 AM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Fair enough, but when you ask what is he going to DO, it looks like you are asking for more.

It's very difficult to walk the tightrope between mere inquiry and attempting to influence. Less of a "tightrope" than you realize... Unless your objective is to prevent an inquiry...


I would at the very least, like to see him look into ATF's policies and their practices in general ,like the IRS is sometimes looked into by Congress; or like the FDA is often "investigated" when aspirins are not round enough or not white enough

I would like one of the Congressional committes -like the ones that sometimes make "fact finding missions" to be sure Serbia,Haiti or Israel (Palestinians)  is not oppressing the  citizens under their government.........while our citizens are getting steamrolled by some of our own agencies

I would like McCain -or anyone else with the Constitution in mind- look to see if ANY Federal agencies are overstepping their role as regulators/enforcers of the laws they are entrusted withinin their jurisdiction.

That would be good for a start


What would the best way to effectively use the huge mass of mostly likeminded people here to bring attention to this issue? A discussion on how to do this without doing further damage to Cav Arms seems in order. I'm not talking about babbling rants, but a well thought-out plan to involve folks who may be willing to help.

This is a perfect example of abuse and this could be a good chance to illustrate it, IF done properly. Any good ideas on how to do this?

I contacted my Congressman (Joe Barton) and received a pretty much canned letter back saying how much he supports the 2nd Amendment and nothing regarding the actual issue that I asked his response on...

We need to figure out how to play the game (More effectively) that the libtards are winning.
 


I'm not sure what we could do, but whatever we do, we should schedule it for the day the Supreme Court releases the Heller decision.  That will put RKBA in the media.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 7:53:19 AM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Fair enough, but when you ask what is he going to DO, it looks like you are asking for more.

It's very difficult to walk the tightrope between mere inquiry and attempting to influence. Less of a "tightrope" than you realize... Unless your objective is to prevent an inquiry...


I would at the very least, like to see him look into ATF's policies and their practices in general ,like the IRS is sometimes looked into by Congress; or like the FDA is often "investigated" when aspirins are not round enough or not white enough

I would like one of the Congressional committes -like the ones that sometimes make "fact finding missions" to be sure Serbia,Haiti or Israel (Palestinians)  is not oppressing the  citizens under their government.........while our citizens are getting steamrolled by some of our own agencies

I would like McCain -or anyone else with the Constitution in mind- look to see if ANY Federal agencies are overstepping their role as regulators/enforcers of the laws they are entrusted withinin their jurisdiction.

That would be good for a start


What would the best way to effectively use the huge mass of mostly likeminded people here to bring attention to this issue? A discussion on how to do this without doing further damage to Cav Arms seems in order. I'm not talking about babbling rants, but a well thought-out plan to involve folks who may be willing to help.

This is a perfect example of abuse and this could be a good chance to illustrate it, IF done properly. Any good ideas on how to do this?

I contacted my Congressman (Joe Barton) and received a pretty much canned letter back saying how much he supports the 2nd Amendment and nothing regarding the actual issue that I asked his response on...

We need to figure out how to play the game (More effectively) that the libtards are winning.
 


I think it would be a good idea to wait for the investigation to conclude before saying that this is a perfect example of abuse.

I'm sure Cav has done nothing wrong, but it would make the gun community look terrible if we flood politicians with letters decrying the persecution of Cav Arms and it turned out that they did something illegal.


So?  Rosa Parks broke the law.  She was guilty.  The situation still was a rallying point to usher in change.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 7:54:30 AM EDT
[#28]
F the BATFE

Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:13:44 AM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:
I think it would be a good idea to wait for the investigation to conclude before saying that this is a perfect example of abuse.

I'm sure Cav has done nothing wrong, but it would make the gun community look terrible if we flood politicians with letters decrying the persecution of Cav Arms and it turned out that they did something illegal.


Assume innocence until guilt is proven.  
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:18:48 AM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:
Not here in America under a Republican president.


That's what people get for confusing"Republican" with "conservative" or even "principled". Don't even get me started on the Dems...



Someone at the ATF, possibly several someones, need to be charged with violation of Title 18 Sect 241/242. "Deprivation of Civil Rights under color of Law".

If this doesn't meet that standard, nothing will...
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:20:25 AM EDT
[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.


There is no prosecution yet, and the Sixth Amendment does not limit the length of an investigation before charges are formally filed.

If you're going to cite the constitution you would do well to actually know what you're talking about.

BTW, even if the sixth did apply here, which it does not, the speedy trial limitation is a hell of a lot longer than 50 days.



You would do well to know why I posted the sixth before you spout off. Since I havent posted why you dont know.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:39:15 AM EDT
[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.


There is no prosecution yet, and the Sixth Amendment does not limit the length of an investigation before charges are formally filed.

If you're going to cite the constitution you would do well to actually know what you're talking about.

BTW, even if the sixth did apply here, which it does not, the speedy trial limitation is a hell of a lot longer than 50 days.



You would do well to know why I posted the sixth before you spout off. Since I havent posted why you dont know.



Am I the only one who said WTF?  while reading this?
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:40:01 AM EDT
[#33]
tag
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:54:06 AM EDT
[#34]
Ed, the thread you removed is the one with the link for purchasing some of the Cav-aid stuff.  Maybe we could reconstitute that post and link it to the now-dead link for the 'Cav Arms assistance plan' in the 'universal' tacked thread?
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:55:29 AM EDT
[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Fair enough, but when you ask what is he going to DO, it looks like you are asking for more.

It's very difficult to walk the tightrope between mere inquiry and attempting to influence. Less of a "tightrope" than you realize... Unless your objective is to prevent an inquiry...


I would at the very least, like to see him look into ATF's policies and their practices in general ,like the IRS is sometimes looked into by Congress; or like the FDA is often "investigated" when aspirins are not round enough or not white enough

I would like one of the Congressional committes -like the ones that sometimes make "fact finding missions" to be sure Serbia,Haiti or Israel (Palestinians)  is not oppressing the  citizens under their government.........while our citizens are getting steamrolled by some of our own agencies

I would like McCain -or anyone else with the Constitution in mind- look to see if ANY Federal agencies are overstepping their role as regulators/enforcers of the laws they are entrusted withinin their jurisdiction.

That would be good for a start


What would the best way to effectively use the huge mass of mostly likeminded people here to bring attention to this issue? A discussion on how to do this without doing further damage to Cav Arms seems in order. I'm not talking about babbling rants, but a well thought-out plan to involve folks who may be willing to help.

This is a perfect example of abuse and this could be a good chance to illustrate it, IF done properly. Any good ideas on how to do this?

I contacted my Congressman (Joe Barton) and received a pretty much canned letter back saying how much he supports the 2nd Amendment and nothing regarding the actual issue that I asked his response on...

We need to figure out how to play the game (More effectively) that the libtards are winning.
 


I think it would be a good idea to wait for the investigation to conclude before saying that this is a perfect example of abuse.

I'm sure Cav has done nothing wrong, but it would make the gun community look terrible if we flood politicians with letters decrying the persecution of Cav Arms and it turned out that they did something illegal.


So?  Rosa Parks broke the law.  She was guilty.  The situation still was a rallying point to usher in change.


Are you serious with that?  Rosa Parks broke an unjust law.  IF Cav Arms broke the law, we'd have to know which law it was in order to know if it was unjust, wouldn't we?
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:56:14 AM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think it would be a good idea to wait for the investigation to conclude before saying that this is a perfect example of abuse.

I'm sure Cav has done nothing wrong, but it would make the gun community look terrible if we flood politicians with letters decrying the persecution of Cav Arms and it turned out that they did something illegal.


Assume innocence until guilt is proven.  


And I do.  But there is a difference between assuming for yourself that one is innocent and proclaiming it to the entire world.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:56:17 AM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:56:54 AM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.


There is no prosecution yet, and the Sixth Amendment does not limit the length of an investigation before charges are formally filed.

If you're going to cite the constitution you would do well to actually know what you're talking about.

BTW, even if the sixth did apply here, which it does not, the speedy trial limitation is a hell of a lot longer than 50 days.



You would do well to know why I posted the sixth before you spout off. Since I havent posted why you dont know.


Oh, the part about the nature and cause of the accusation?  That part?

NO ACCUSATION HAS BEEN MADE.

The Amendment begins with "In all criminal prosecutions..."

There is no prosecution yet.  No charges have been filed.

The Sixth does not apply.

Link Posted: 4/17/2008 8:59:28 AM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:
I think it would be a good idea to wait for the investigation to conclude before saying that this is a perfect example of abuse.

I'm sure Cav has done nothing wrong, but it would make the gun community look terrible if we flood politicians with letters decrying the persecution of Cav Arms and it turned out that they did something illegal.



Most of us in the rest of the country are NOT as accepting of the government thumb as the people in your yankee state.

Cav Arms is not some small nameless nobody without anybody to vouch for their integrity, they have a pretty large presence in the shooting community, lots of people that know them and all of us can tell you that they did NOTHING that could account for this kind of reaction. We may find that there is a paperwork mistake, or that they were taken advantage of by a criminal, but the goverment sword is treating them like they are the criminals, and we want to see it stopped BEFORE they ruin their lives, not wait till the damage is complete.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:04:09 AM EDT
[#40]
I see this as the perfect opportunity for Robinson Arms to make some amends to the firearms owning community by asking Mitt Romney to get involved.  He may no longer be a presidential candidate but he is a former governor is he not?  Did he not claim to support the 2nd amendment?  Arizona is right next door to Utah.  Robinson Arms could been the victim just as easily.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:05:18 AM EDT
[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think it would be a good idea to wait for the investigation to conclude before saying that this is a perfect example of abuse.

I'm sure Cav has done nothing wrong, but it would make the gun community look terrible if we flood politicians with letters decrying the persecution of Cav Arms and it turned out that they did something illegal.



Most of us in the rest of the country are NOT as accepting of the government thumb as the people in your yankee state.

Cav Arms is not some small nameless nobody without anybody to vouch for their integrity, they have a pretty large presence in the shooting community, lots of people that know them and all of us can tell you that they did NOTHING that could account for this kind of reaction. We may find that their is a paperwork mistake, or that they were taken advantage of by a criminal, but the goverment sword is treating them like they are the criminals, and we want to see it stopped BEFORE they ruin their lives, not wait till the damage is complete.


My yankee state?  Wow.  My, what a witty retort.

If you do not have direct personal knowledge of their guilt or innocence, you are merely speculating.  You may be speculating based on a large amount of information and experience, but it's speculation nonetheless.  Do you have this direct personal knowledge?
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:06:22 AM EDT
[#42]
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:07:01 AM EDT
[#43]

Quoted:
I see this as the perfect opportunity for Robinson Arms to make some amends to the firearms owning community by asking Mitt Romney to get involved.  He may no longer be a presidential candidate but he is a former governor is he not?  Did he not claim to support the 2nd amendment?  Arizona is right next door to Utah.  Robinson Arms could been the victim just as easily.


Very interesting...
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:07:58 AM EDT
[#44]

Quoted:
Probably should tack this...

Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:11:22 AM EDT
[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think it would be a good idea to wait for the investigation to conclude before saying that this is a perfect example of abuse.

I'm sure Cav has done nothing wrong, but it would make the gun community look terrible if we flood politicians with letters decrying the persecution of Cav Arms and it turned out that they did something illegal.



Most of us in the rest of the country are NOT as accepting of the government thumb as the people in your yankee state.

Do not forget where the American Revolution started


Many politicians have.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:11:31 AM EDT
[#46]
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:11:32 AM EDT
[#47]
All I can think of right now are the members at this site who have said,"Let's give this situation some time to see how it shakes down. I will reserve my support until it is determined CavArms is indeed innocent."

With support like that....
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:17:10 AM EDT
[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think it would be a good idea to wait for the investigation to conclude before saying that this is a perfect example of abuse.

I'm sure Cav has done nothing wrong, but it would make the gun community look terrible if we flood politicians with letters decrying the persecution of Cav Arms and it turned out that they did something illegal.



Most of us in the rest of the country are NOT as accepting of the government thumb as the people in your yankee state.

Cav Arms is not some small nameless nobody without anybody to vouch for their integrity, they have a pretty large presence in the shooting community, lots of people that know them and all of us can tell you that they did NOTHING that could account for this kind of reaction. We may find that their is a paperwork mistake, or that they were taken advantage of by a criminal, but the goverment sword is treating them like they are the criminals, and we want to see it stopped BEFORE they ruin their lives, not wait till the damage is complete.


My yankee state?  Wow.  My, what a witty retort.

If you do not have direct personal knowledge of their guilt or innocence, you are merely speculating.  You may be speculating based on a large amount of information and experience, but it's speculation nonetheless.  Do you have this direct personal knowledge?
Here's the problem:
Cav's FFL is still active.  Do you think the feds would let them continue to engage in business AFTER a raid if the feds thought they were the criminals?
As somebody else concluded, it seems like somebody else is being investigated instead of Cav, but that doesn't do a damn thing good for Cav.


I can't explain that and it doesn't make sense.

Look, I'm sure this is a travesty of epic proportions.

Supporting CavArms and donating money is one thing, but sending letters to politicians and candidates, proclaiming that these people are absolutely innocent and that there is no doubt about it, is another.  It seriously harms our credibility and does nothing to help CavArms.

The best and most effective way to support CavArms is with money, either via donations or by purchasing products.
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:18:20 AM EDT
[#49]
At the Mayors against illegeal guns conference this week (which was on C-span) they were asking Director Sullivan why dealers or lose or turn in there license can keep the guns in a private collection after they have no license.  They wanted all the guns turned into the BATFE and destoryed. If they had there way they would have already destroyed all of Calvarys inventory.

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/home/home.shtml
Link Posted: 4/17/2008 9:33:17 AM EDT
[#50]

Quoted:
My yankee state?  Wow.  My, what a witty retort.


It's an indicator of the amount of government injustice you are willing to accept in your life, and directly relates to your "We should just sit on our hands" view of this situation.



If you do not have direct personal knowledge of their guilt or innocence, you are merely speculating.  You may be speculating based on a large amount of information and experience, but it's speculation nonetheless.  Do you have this direct personal knowledge?


They are friends, I have no doubt that they have not intentionally participated in a crime which justifies this level of intrusion.
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