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Posted: 10/18/2014 9:23:15 PM EDT
[#1]
I own page 5
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Posted: 10/18/2014 9:36:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quick question, I was under the impression that setback wasn't an iisue in an AR as it is in pistol rounds. I think I got this information in the reloading section here. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Possibility I haven't noticed in this thread yet is set back. Poorly crimped reload's could allow the bullet to set back during feeding to a point where pressures get crazy. Not likely an issue with rifle propellants. My 5.56 loads are compressed. Quick question, I was under the impression that setback wasn't an iisue in an AR as it is in pistol rounds. I think I got this information in the reloading section here. Not a huge issue. Mainly due to to powder burn rates, neck tension (to some degree), and bullet weight. Slow powder and midweight bullet in a rifle vs. fast powder and heavy bullet in pistol. Though any change in the capacity of the case will affect pressure. Ymmv, I ain't no rocket scientist. |
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Posted: 10/18/2014 9:51:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Do we know if the KB round cycled itself in or was manually loaded?
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Posted: 10/18/2014 9:58:06 PM EDT
[#4]
Looking forward to seeing you take it apart.
My answer isn't listed. Case Head Separation. |
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Posted: 10/18/2014 10:17:04 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Slamfires have nothing to do with the bolt being locked, they occure when the bolt is loading the round into the chamber and something contacts the primer. Most often due to a sticking firing pin, but in your case it was caused by debris. Its not uncommon with sks's. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
For those claiming OOB: An AR15 cannot fire unless the bolt is locked. If it fired via the firing pin, and if the rifle has a cam pin, then it fired with a safely locked bolt. If it has its cam pin and fired via the firing pin, and the bolt is unlocked after the kaboom, then the kaboom forced it to unlock after the primer was struck. Bullshit. You guys are seriously overlooking one KB, one that's actually happened to me years ago. Primer gets stuck/fused to the bolt face then as next round get pushed into the chamber the stuck/fused primer sets off the next round oob as the head space is taken up. I would consider that as a slam fire and not a regular OOB. you would have two rapid fires, the first round which you pulled the trigger, the second which fired up loading. the diagnosis and fix would be different. either way, determining if it was a OOB/slam fire vs a wrong powder charge should be simple, in a OOB the primer and most of the case will be intact, a wrong powder overpressure will have blown out the primer, and probably burned away the bolt face and firing pin, it will all have brass dust over it. "Slam fire" would indicate that the bolt was locked but fired without the pull of the trigger. WIth my example, it fired out of battery. Slamfires have nothing to do with the bolt being locked, they occure when the bolt is loading the round into the chamber and something contacts the primer. Most often due to a sticking firing pin, but in your case it was caused by debris. Its not uncommon with sks's. Though with an AR, the firing pin cannot even touch the primer until the bolt is locked. And it cannot be "stuck forward" in reference to the bolt when the bolt is unlocked. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 8:55:18 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looking forward to seeing you take it apart. My answer isn't listed. Case Head Separation. A case head Sep will vent gases down into the mag well, but will not blow apart the carrier in my experiences. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 9:11:21 AM EDT
[#7]
Tag for pics of case.
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Posted: 10/19/2014 10:00:45 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you positive it wasn't reloads? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My friend's 12 year old son was shooting his AR15 (That I helped him build last year) when it blew up. He is OK. The magazine was blown out of the mag well and the bottom of the magazine was blown out. The bolt is still lodged in the upper. He has put about 250 rounds through the rifle. The 30 round mag was loaded with 10 rounds of LC 03 head stamped ammo. This happened on the 5th round. Are you positive it wasn't reloads? Check out the rest of the ammunition. If it's LC, it'll be much easier to check the primer and see if the crimp is still in place. If it is, it's probably factor. No guarantee however, as they sell primed cases. Then pull the slug and check the powder. Should be a spherical powder if LC. If it something weird like a flake powder, it's pistol powder. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 10:51:43 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looking forward to seeing you take it apart. My answer isn't listed. Case Head Separation. Case head separation or failure is the answer...... I have had overpressure issues with some Federal XM193 in the past.....LC 03/04/05 headstamps........toss in a little too much headspace and there ya go.... This is a good example of why the tacticool method of shooting with your hand gripping the magwell is a very bad idea.....When this happens in a G3, or FAL you'd lose your hand if you were holding the mag..... |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:15:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Slamfires have nothing to do with the bolt being locked, they occure when the bolt is loading the round into the chamber and something contacts the primer. Most often due to a sticking firing pin, but in your case it was caused by debris. Its not uncommon with sks's. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
For those claiming OOB: An AR15 cannot fire unless the bolt is locked. If it fired via the firing pin, and if the rifle has a cam pin, then it fired with a safely locked bolt. If it has its cam pin and fired via the firing pin, and the bolt is unlocked after the kaboom, then the kaboom forced it to unlock after the primer was struck. Bullshit. You guys are seriously overlooking one KB, one that's actually happened to me years ago. Primer gets stuck/fused to the bolt face then as next round get pushed into the chamber the stuck/fused primer sets off the next round oob as the head space is taken up. I would consider that as a slam fire and not a regular OOB. you would have two rapid fires, the first round which you pulled the trigger, the second which fired up loading. the diagnosis and fix would be different. either way, determining if it was a OOB/slam fire vs a wrong powder charge should be simple, in a OOB the primer and most of the case will be intact, a wrong powder overpressure will have blown out the primer, and probably burned away the bolt face and firing pin, it will all have brass dust over it. "Slam fire" would indicate that the bolt was locked but fired without the pull of the trigger. WIth my example, it fired out of battery. Slamfires have nothing to do with the bolt being locked, they occure when the bolt is loading the round into the chamber and something contacts the primer. Most often due to a sticking firing pin, but in your case it was caused by debris. Its not uncommon with sks's. Yes but a slam fire wont fire oob in your example, at worst it will go in "run away" mode. In my example, the guns fires out of battery which fucks things up. Slamfires don't fuck guns up, they are not the cause of the issue but a symptom of a different issue. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:50:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This.
I had a kaboom with USA ammo. Once fired military brass had a hidden projectile called a "rattler" left inside causing overpressure. 
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:50:19 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is a good example of why the tacticool method of shooting with your hand gripping the magwell is a very bad idea.....When this happens in a G3, or FAL you'd lose your hand if you were holding the mag..... Never seen it happen in a G3, but the FAL bulges magazines. I've seen several KBd FALs. Your hand would probably survive. Also, there isn't anything "tacticool" about a magwell grip. It's actually very old-school. Nobody shoots like that anymore; it's too slow to transition between targets. Blown up FAL (Chilean ammo): 
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Posted: 10/19/2014 2:22:49 PM EDT
[#13]
Tag for later
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Posted: 10/19/2014 2:37:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A case head Sep will vent gases down into the mag well, but will not blow apart the carrier in my experiences. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looking forward to seeing you take it apart. My answer isn't listed. Case Head Separation. A case head Sep will vent gases down into the mag well, but will not blow apart the carrier in my experiences. It's rare to see a blown apart carrier, how many have you seen? All the squib load threads I have seen have had more damage to the receivers or even barrel. I had a case head separation, and it was not close to as catastrophic as that but shows a lot of the same damage. I still have the ejector and is bent like a banana. My case head separation in a colt sporter and squib in 1911 were both with reloaded ammunition. I'm the only one who reloads ammo that goes in my guns now. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 2:54:14 PM EDT
[#15]
tag for outcome
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Posted: 10/19/2014 3:28:48 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's rare to see a blown apart carrier, how many have you seen? All the squib load threads I have seen have had more damage to the receivers or even barrel. I had a case head separation, and it was not close to as catastrophic as that but shows a lot of the same damage. I still have the ejector and is bent like a banana. My case head separation in a colt sporter and squib in 1911 were both with reloaded ammunition. I'm the only one who reloads ammo that goes in my guns now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Looking forward to seeing you take it apart. My answer isn't listed. Case Head Separation. A case head Sep will vent gases down into the mag well, but will not blow apart the carrier in my experiences. It's rare to see a blown apart carrier, how many have you seen? All the squib load threads I have seen have had more damage to the receivers or even barrel. I had a case head separation, and it was not close to as catastrophic as that but shows a lot of the same damage. I still have the ejector and is bent like a banana. My case head separation in a colt sporter and squib in 1911 were both with reloaded ammunition. I'm the only one who reloads ammo that goes in my guns now. When the extractor is blown out - this is most often a case failure of the case web, NOT a case head separation. THIS is a case head separation: 
Any damage from a case head sep is very rare, if the chamber does not contain the gas long enough, the gases will vent though the bolt face into the carrier and down into the magazine, blowing out the floorplate and swelling the magazine at worst. This does not damage the extractor in any way. What damages the extractor is a case failure, which below would be typical: 
I have seen tons of squibs in handguns. I'd say almost ALL the AR15 kabooms I have seen had nothing to do with squib or bore obstruction, they were 100% attributable to overpressure, and then subsequent case failure as a result of overpressure. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 4:40:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Looks identical to about every KB that's been determined to be ammo related. (over pressure round)
Agree that it's extremely unlikely to be out of battery ignition. Agree that it's not headspace related. Agree it's unlikely to be case head separation. I've had a couple case separations on properly headspaced rifles. In my "case" the bottom third of case ejected leaving 2/3 of case in chamber. Bore brush removed remaining portion of case from chamber. No damage to rifle. Not suggesting a case head separation can't damage a rifle of course. OP, any update on history of the ammunition? Did they get the bolt out? |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 4:50:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would the barrel be bulged or split if it was a squib? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Squib or overcharged ammo. Would the barrel be bulged or split if it was a squib? likely but not positively |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 5:29:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, I am not. I asked him and he said another friend of the family gave them some "bulk" ammo. I questioned him if he knew if they were reloads, and he didn't know. All he said was that it was bulk ammo. I suspected, and told him, that I thought it might have been reloads, but it will take some further investigation to be sure. Highlighted the issue |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 5:51:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When the extractor is blown out - this is most often a case failure of the case web, NOT a case head separation. THIS is a case head separation: http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac40/allen-trull/Noveske005.jpg Any damage from a case head sep is very rare, if the chamber does not contain the gas long enough, the gases will vent though the bolt face into the carrier and down into the magazine, blowing out the floorplate and swelling the magazine at worst. This does not damage the extractor in any way. What damages the extractor is a case failure, which below would be typical: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/TaterInTheSouth/attachment_zps4fb120f0.jpg I have seen tons of squibs in handguns. I'd say almost ALL the AR15 kabooms I have seen had nothing to do with squib or bore obstruction, they were 100% attributable to overpressure, and then subsequent case failure as a result of overpressure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Looking forward to seeing you take it apart. My answer isn't listed. Case Head Separation. A case head Sep will vent gases down into the mag well, but will not blow apart the carrier in my experiences. It's rare to see a blown apart carrier, how many have you seen? All the squib load threads I have seen have had more damage to the receivers or even barrel. I had a case head separation, and it was not close to as catastrophic as that but shows a lot of the same damage. I still have the ejector and is bent like a banana. My case head separation in a colt sporter and squib in 1911 were both with reloaded ammunition. I'm the only one who reloads ammo that goes in my guns now. When the extractor is blown out - this is most often a case failure of the case web, NOT a case head separation. THIS is a case head separation: http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac40/allen-trull/Noveske005.jpg Any damage from a case head sep is very rare, if the chamber does not contain the gas long enough, the gases will vent though the bolt face into the carrier and down into the magazine, blowing out the floorplate and swelling the magazine at worst. This does not damage the extractor in any way. What damages the extractor is a case failure, which below would be typical: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/TaterInTheSouth/attachment_zps4fb120f0.jpg I have seen tons of squibs in handguns. I'd say almost ALL the AR15 kabooms I have seen had nothing to do with squib or bore obstruction, they were 100% attributable to overpressure, and then subsequent case failure as a result of overpressure. So what would you call this 
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Posted: 10/19/2014 6:00:56 PM EDT
[#21]
So has OP determined that the ammo was in fact factory ammo?
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Posted: 10/19/2014 6:05:47 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So has OP determined that the ammo was in fact factory ammo? Not yet.. I will photo the ammo tonight and post. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 6:08:27 PM EDT
[#23]
Ouch. 
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Posted: 10/19/2014 8:05:07 PM EDT
[#24]
any updates?
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Posted: 10/19/2014 8:39:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Insufficient headspace?
The bolt wouldn't lock into battery. Yes, the bolt can lock into battery with insufficient headspace. It happens. It IS possible. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 9:10:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what would you call this <a href="http://s294.photobucket.com/user/swollguy99/media/Guns/20120524_153804.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm110/swollguy99/Guns/20120524_153804.jpg</a> Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Looking forward to seeing you take it apart. My answer isn't listed. Case Head Separation. A case head Sep will vent gases down into the mag well, but will not blow apart the carrier in my experiences. It's rare to see a blown apart carrier, how many have you seen? All the squib load threads I have seen have had more damage to the receivers or even barrel. I had a case head separation, and it was not close to as catastrophic as that but shows a lot of the same damage. I still have the ejector and is bent like a banana. My case head separation in a colt sporter and squib in 1911 were both with reloaded ammunition. I'm the only one who reloads ammo that goes in my guns now. When the extractor is blown out - this is most often a case failure of the case web, NOT a case head separation. THIS is a case head separation: http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac40/allen-trull/Noveske005.jpg Any damage from a case head sep is very rare, if the chamber does not contain the gas long enough, the gases will vent though the bolt face into the carrier and down into the magazine, blowing out the floorplate and swelling the magazine at worst. This does not damage the extractor in any way. What damages the extractor is a case failure, which below would be typical: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/TaterInTheSouth/attachment_zps4fb120f0.jpg I have seen tons of squibs in handguns. I'd say almost ALL the AR15 kabooms I have seen had nothing to do with squib or bore obstruction, they were 100% attributable to overpressure, and then subsequent case failure as a result of overpressure. So what would you call this <a href="http://s294.photobucket.com/user/swollguy99/media/Guns/20120524_153804.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm110/swollguy99/Guns/20120524_153804.jpg</a> Case failure. Pure and simple |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 9:11:28 PM EDT
[#27]
tag
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Posted: 10/19/2014 10:50:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Updated Pics:
After I took these photos, I tried to remove the BCG but it appears the bolt is stuck in there pretty good. The BC can move a little bit but it is not coming out. I have photographed the remaining ammo as well as the recover spent cases and will post them shortly.            |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 10:55:51 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Updated Pics: After I took these photos, I tried to remove the BCG but it appears the bolt is stuck in there pretty good. The BC can move a little bit but it is not coming out. I have photographed the remaining ammo as well as the recover spent cases and will post them shortly. http://i60.tinypic.com/25rf2h2.jpg http://i58.tinypic.com/2u92zgl.jpg Thanks for the pics. Are you going to try to remove the barrel? ETA: it looks like the extention got severely fucked up too! You're probably going to have to cut it out. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:04:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Ammo: FC 223   LC02 & 03  LC04   LC05   LC06   LC07   LC12   |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:06:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Looks like a classic case failure to me. This is one of the reasons why I only reload Lake City brass that I personally fired, or picked up from new once fired.
If you have LC brass that was M856 tracer, fired in the SAW, it stretches out significantly, and even a light starting load can cause this. You can tell by the way the BCG came apart that there was a lot of pressure directed back into the action. My guess is hand loads with LC brass, either tracer brass from the SAW, or just a bad reload from the remanufacturer. Glad the kid is ok. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:09:24 PM EDT
[#32]
....
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:10:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Do these look like reloads to you?
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:12:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Time to strip it for parts. small non stress parts that can be reused.
ETA: Ammo looks like bulk packed XM193, M855 and AE223. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:12:22 PM EDT
[#35]
Thats some nasty looking ammo
 Was this out of the blown mag or out of the package.
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:13:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thats some nasty looking ammo Was this out of the blown mag or out of the package.It was blown out of the mag, but I was told it already had some dents. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:15:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Time to strip it for parts. small non stress parts that can be reused. I'd say fuck it. Any small parts that can be reused are so cheap it's better to just start over. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:19:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats some nasty looking ammo Was this out of the blown mag or out of the package.XM193 has always been dirty with lots of dents. Some years worse than others. Some lots worse than others. I just opened ten boxes of 2013 production XM193 and set aside 41 rounds with dents, excess case mouth sealant or missing primer sealant. 41:200 should have never left the factory as anything other than seconds. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:20:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do these look like reloads to you? 1. Do commercial reloaders ever paint the tips? 2. Is the purple primer sealer seen on several rounds typical of LC production? |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:23:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do these look like reloads to you? No. At least the green tips look like the bulk 1000rd packs from federal of XM855, comes in a big plastic bag in a big box. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:28:10 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2. Is the purple primer sealer seen on several rounds typical of LC production? Yes. On some lots, as far back as 2001. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:32:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do these look like reloads to you? No. Primer crimp appears intact. Pretty much a dead giveaway that it's not reloads IMO. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:37:30 PM EDT
[#43]
Gas ring gaps were probably lined up when fired
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:42:08 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gas ring gaps were probably lined up when fired Wait... Is that a real thing? |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:43:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gas ring gaps were probably lined up when fired lol |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:44:30 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wait... Is that a real thing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Gas ring gaps were probably lined up when fired Wait... Is that a real thing? lol 
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:49:00 PM EDT
[#47]
Bullet on the far right looks set back in this pic.
Do you have a magnet around? See if it sticks to them. I'm curious if they are real penetrator tips.
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:51:06 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
lol Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Gas ring gaps were probably lined up when fired Wait... Is that a real thing? lol Well it's on the Internet so it must be true!! 
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:51:55 PM EDT
[#49]
I can not believe someone would load such nasty looking ammo. I think all the variables are leaning to the same side on this one, big dent in case, slightly overcharged round, bullet set back to far...kaboom!
All I know is I will never shoot my AR holding the magwell again. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:52:39 PM EDT
[#50]
I see a couple with a ring at the web right where the case head starts
 This could be a sizing mark or bad brass? Given what you guy's are saying about the quality control they have for this line of ammo I'm leaning toward a case failure.
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