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Posted: 2/12/2016 2:42:07 PM EDT
[#1]
Depends on what you are fighting with. All types of weapons or just ground forces. Also terrain. In 1986 most Senior NCO's and Officers were Vietnam Vets. In 2016 Most Senior NCO's and Officers were Iraq and Afgan Vets.
Vietnam the US forces didn't always have overwhelming superiority. It seems in Afghanistan and Iraq we did. I think the better analogy would be to put a 1986 unit in Afghanistan today and see how they compare to 2016 units |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 2:42:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
86 cause of the shit we used to eat out of mermite cans and the hard living. 2016 cant operate without chu , xbox / DFAC steak and crableg night , and green bean coffe. I guess you were never on a COP.... |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 2:42:56 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2016 by a not small margin. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 2:43:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Because of sheer number and Reagan 86 wins.
Like the Germans in ww2 the 16 military is battlehardened but has a incompetent leader. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 2:47:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Why is this turning into Reagan vs Obama?
Neither of them are going to be commanding troops or doing much at all. Besides I'm sure Obama would just drone strike Reagan seeing as how he's done that to hundreds of people. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 2:53:45 PM EDT
[#6]
For those in the 80's camp, do you believe that the Soviets would have won if they crossed into West Germany?
If not, how can you argue against the 2016, as 2016 is is in the same situation as 1986 when compared to the Soviets, more tech lesser numbers. Except 2016 has more combat experience and the technology difference is much much more apparent. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 2:55:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Even if both were given the same equipment, 2016 has much, much more combat experience.
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Posted: 2/12/2016 2:59:41 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
16er Bergdahl defects to 86 side. 86 side treats him poorly, trades him back to Obama in exchange for all sorts of technological goodies that level the playing field. Obama parades him around the Rose garden, touts him as a hero, hugs his dad. 16ers become demoralized, and refuse to reenlist, all purchase DD-214 blankets on the way out. 86 wins by default due to attrition. Truce is signed, hugs exchanged, roll down to the VFW together for a beer only to get treated like shit by the old timer WW2/Korea/Nam guys. Tensions begin to rise, conflict threatens to breakout between the factions once again, but it's too late...the real enemy wins as the VA hospital system slowly kills them all. A viscious insider sneak attack everybody should have seen coming.  
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Posted: 2/12/2016 3:07:06 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Considering the commander in chief that each respective military has in charge I'm going 1986!!! |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 3:21:27 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yea I bet all those times out in the field were rough as shit. How rough was it being stationed in Europe waiting on the USSR to invade. It's gotta suck when your whole claim to fame is what amounts to two dudes circling around each other yelling to the other to throw the first punch. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 86 cause of the shit we used to eat out of mermite cans and the hard living. 2016 cant operate without chu , xbox / DFAC steak and crableg night , and green bean coffe. Yea I bet all those times out in the field were rough as shit. How rough was it being stationed in Europe waiting on the USSR to invade. It's gotta suck when your whole claim to fame is what amounts to two dudes circling around each other yelling to the other to throw the first punch. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 3:41:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We lived a much more physical way of life 30 years ago.. and that translate to the battle field Which battlefield did it translate to? |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 3:45:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
mountain range sunshine, mountain range. 
Oh, and Gunny Highway too. You young pups would be fucked. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Most of this thread is just Uncle Rico talking shit. "Back in my day I could throw a football over a mountain" shit mountain range sunshine, mountain range.
Oh, and Gunny Highway too. You young pups would be fucked. Sadly Im old enough to remember the 80's. Joined the Corps way closer to 86 than today. Im still going with 2016 would win. The poster that said everyone from the 80's looks on it with rose colored glasses is correct. The late 80's were good times. But lets be realistic about it |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 3:47:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right how many dudes back then hit the gym daily? Or even PTd at all on their own. Do these old fucks think all we did was play Xbox and not kill people on Afghanistan? How many dudes had done a combat deployment in 86 compared to how many have done them in 2016? How many dudes shit on bags and showered with water bottles for months in 86? Tougher lives my ass. The only thing thougher about the 80s was your quality of porn sucked. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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We lived a much more physical way of life 30 years ago.. and that translate to the battle field lol at this shit. Right how many dudes back then hit the gym daily? Or even PTd at all on their own. Do these old fucks think all we did was play Xbox and not kill people on Afghanistan? How many dudes had done a combat deployment in 86 compared to how many have done them in 2016? How many dudes shit on bags and showered with water bottles for months in 86? Tougher lives my ass. The only thing thougher about the 80s was your quality of porn sucked. Agreed, in the early mid 90's I can count on one hand the number of guys in my platoon/s that took working out seriously. Other that morning PT that was the extent of it. The late 90's that shit started to change. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 3:49:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sadly Im old enough to remember the 80's. Joined the Corps way closer to 86 than today. Im still going with 2016 would win. The poster that said everyone from the 80's looks on it with rose colored glasses is correct. The late 80's were good times. But lets be realistic about it Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Most of this thread is just Uncle Rico talking shit. "Back in my day I could throw a football over a mountain" shit mountain range sunshine, mountain range.
Oh, and Gunny Highway too. You young pups would be fucked. Sadly Im old enough to remember the 80's. Joined the Corps way closer to 86 than today. Im still going with 2016 would win. The poster that said everyone from the 80's looks on it with rose colored glasses is correct. The late 80's were good times. But lets be realistic about it I see old guys all the time brag about how they did it. We didn't need no fandangled optics. We used a real man's round that could one shot kill anyone out to a 1000M not the poodle gun designed for women. Men dow days couldn't handle the recoil of a real gun. We didn't need no night vision. We didn't need no stinking armor. Blah blah blah. Rose tinted glasses and all that. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 3:50:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Batman of course. Michael Keaton Batman or Adam West Batman? Val Kilmer or George Clooney? Christian Bale or Ben Afleck ? |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 3:55:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on what you are fighting with. All types of weapons or just ground forces. Also terrain. In 1986 most Senior NCO's and Officers were Vietnam Vets. In 2016 Most Senior NCO's and Officers were Iraq and Afgan Vets. Vietnam the US forces didn't always have overwhelming superiority. It seems in Afghanistan and Iraq we did. I think the better analogy would be to put a 1986 unit in Afghanistan today and see how they compare to 2016 units Well, the military strategy in Vietnam is significantly different than what we had in Afghanistan and Iraq. Back then it was a slow buildup of military forces, now we are doing it differently with a massive buildup, giving us an overwhelming advantage to blitz the enemy. Had we actually went all in in Vietnam instead of slowly building up men and weaponry, it could have turned out differently. As to the 1986 vs 2016. Sorry bubs, but I am giving the advantage to 2016. The technological advances made in fighting a war easily negates any advantage 1986 might have, and puts us miles ahead in terms of firepower. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 3:57:47 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The people in the management ranks (commissioned and non-commissioned) of the military in 86 weren't exactly inexperienced; they were for the most part Korea, Vietnam and sometimes even WWII vets. General Vessey, the Chair of the Joint Chiefs until 86, was a 1st Sgt in WWII, Artillery in Korea, and Artillery in Vietnam. "In March 1967, when acting as Commander of the 2nd Battalion, 77th Artillery, he was given the mission of establishing a fire support base at Suoi Tre during Operation Junction City. Located deep in enemy-controlled territory, Vessey and his men oriented the firebase's defenses on the enemy's likely avenues of approach and rehearsed counterattack plans. During the attack by a reinforced regiment, the base was partially overrun. Vessey and his men fired their howitzers directly into the enemy ranks. Although greatly outnumbered, the defenders, aided by gunships and artillery, killed four hundred of their assailants while successfully defending the firebase. Lieutenant Colonel Vessey received the Distinguished Service Cross for his actions during the battle." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1986=Reagan2016=Obama Is this really a question. Lol Damn beat me to it! Reagan was a real bad ass..... I remember how he made them fuckers pay for blowing up our boys in Lebanon. .... wait...he didn't do shit about that. Big tech and experience advantage for 2016. Smoke 1986. The people in the management ranks (commissioned and non-commissioned) of the military in 86 weren't exactly inexperienced; they were for the most part Korea, Vietnam and sometimes even WWII vets. General Vessey, the Chair of the Joint Chiefs until 86, was a 1st Sgt in WWII, Artillery in Korea, and Artillery in Vietnam. "In March 1967, when acting as Commander of the 2nd Battalion, 77th Artillery, he was given the mission of establishing a fire support base at Suoi Tre during Operation Junction City. Located deep in enemy-controlled territory, Vessey and his men oriented the firebase's defenses on the enemy's likely avenues of approach and rehearsed counterattack plans. During the attack by a reinforced regiment, the base was partially overrun. Vessey and his men fired their howitzers directly into the enemy ranks. Although greatly outnumbered, the defenders, aided by gunships and artillery, killed four hundred of their assailants while successfully defending the firebase. Lieutenant Colonel Vessey received the Distinguished Service Cross for his actions during the battle." Vs today when you have E-4's with two tours, E-8's and E-9's who have been in combat since the beginning. Not to mention GO's who were Captains when they hit the ground in Oct 2001. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:01:04 PM EDT
[#18]
Hrmmm land war not sure... Naval? 1986..... Lots more sub's an launchers etc. Navalvtech has not changed all that much
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:01:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Apples to Oranges
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:02:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
well its now 30yrs since Red Storm Rising was published, that got me thinking..... If the U.S. military of 1986 had to fight today's U.S. military in a conventional fight which era would win? We (1986) would WIN WE HAVE RONNIE as CINC... We also had Ponch liners before 16ers Woobies 
2016 has Hussain |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:14:17 PM EDT
[#21]
2016 Army rolls a company into a town to talk to the village leaders, finds 1986 Army has 2 heavy brigades in place, with a 3rd in reserve, with Corps arty on the line just in case...
2016 Army calls for air support... 1986 Army sez, "They ain't coming, we nuked your air field half an hour ago..." |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:24:57 PM EDT
[#22]
2016 Army CIC 
1986 Army CIC 
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:29:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1. There are females with the Ranger Tab. 2. 3 years or less before there are women in the 75th. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How many female rangers did the 1986 Military have? ZERO... Diversity is our greatest Strength. How many female Rangers do we have in the the 75th today? ZERO... Give it time. They are coming. Well then wait 30 years and start a who would win thread 2016 or 2046, fact is they are not in units now so 1. There are females with the Ranger Tab. 2. 3 years or less before there are women in the 75th. In the 80s they had women with the long tab. Check mate. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:41:22 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Conventional: 2016 all day long, pretty much every piece of gear or vehicle is better. As far as troops, well you had fat guys floating around on ships and working in maintenance hangers back in 1986 too. Infantry and Spec Ops guys are still hard men today. Maybe even stronger due to work out routines/science and stuff like protein shakes and all the nutritional science gained in the last 30 years. Yes today we have less, but our less can do a lot more than in the past. Stuff like GPS, JDAM's, Blue Force, MRAP's, PVS 14's, RCO's, Body Armor the list goes on and on Nuclear: 1986 |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:43:22 PM EDT
[#25]
1986 > 2016
Reason: ROE 86 we just fucking killed the enemy without asking for permission..... for an hour |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:49:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1986 > 2016 Reason: ROE 86 we just fucking killed the enemy without asking for permission..... for an hour Because we need to ask permission to engage a hostile military force... Must be why we never killed anyone in the Iraq invasion. There is a difference between an insurgent force hiding behind women and dressed as locals vs an actual military unit. When have we ever needed to ask to engage an actual hostile military unit. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:52:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reagan was a real bad ass..... I remember how he made them fuckers pay for blowing up our boys in Lebanon. .... wait...he didn't do shit about that. Big tech and experience advantage for 2016. Smoke 1986. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1986=Reagan2016=Obama Is this really a question. Lol Damn beat me to it! Reagan was a real bad ass..... I remember how he made them fuckers pay for blowing up our boys in Lebanon. .... wait...he didn't do shit about that. Big tech and experience advantage for 2016. Smoke 1986. That's what I'm thinking. Better body armor Better weapon optics Better LBE Better guns (240L vs M60? LOL) Better guided weapons Better aircraft Better comms Better chow Better night vision Better tanks Better experience Better training So, basically, better in nearly any metric you care to choose. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 4:57:57 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because we need to ask permission to engage a hostile military force... Must be why we never killed anyone in the Iraq invasion. There is a difference between an insurgent force hiding behind women and dressed as locals vs an actual military unit. When have we ever needed to ask to engage an actual hostile military unit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1986 > 2016 Reason: ROE 86 we just fucking killed the enemy without asking for permission..... for an hour Because we need to ask permission to engage a hostile military force... Must be why we never killed anyone in the Iraq invasion. There is a difference between an insurgent force hiding behind women and dressed as locals vs an actual military unit. When have we ever needed to ask to engage an actual hostile military unit. Back in the day they didnt have lawyers arguing over whether or not it was ok to use open tip match bullets because of a treaty we never signed to start with. And yes they had open tip match bullets. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:00:18 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Back in the day they didnt have lawyers arguing over whether or not it was ok to use open tip match bullets because of a treaty we never signed to start with. And yes they had open tip match bullets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1986 > 2016 Reason: ROE 86 we just fucking killed the enemy without asking for permission..... for an hour Because we need to ask permission to engage a hostile military force... Must be why we never killed anyone in the Iraq invasion. There is a difference between an insurgent force hiding behind women and dressed as locals vs an actual military unit. When have we ever needed to ask to engage an actual hostile military unit. Back in the day they didnt have lawyers arguing over whether or not it was ok to use open tip match bullets because of a treaty we never signed to start with. And yes they had open tip match bullets. And Mk262, Mk318, etc are fairy dust. We also have M855A1 which seems to perform very well on soft targets. Please take off the rose tinted glasses. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:00:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Im wondering how many kids are aware it was the 1986 military that sent the iraqis packing the first time?? Where do you think the current leaders learned how to lead?
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:03:46 PM EDT
[#31]
Depends on the terrain.
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:05:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Batman of course. Nope! Merc with a mouth!
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:06:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im wondering how many kids are aware it was the 1986 military that sent the iraqis packing the first time?? Where do you think the current leaders learned how to lead? |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:06:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Michael Keaton Batman or Adam West Batman? Val Kilmer or George Clooney? Christian Bale or Ben Afleck ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Batman of course. Michael Keaton Batman or Adam West Batman? Val Kilmer or George Clooney? Christian Bale or Ben Afleck ? Bat-ception 
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:08:13 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll play. I went on active duty in 1987. My son is on active duty now. They have better technology in many ways now, but the overall quality of the people on a whole, is lower ( his opinion ). I would call it a draw with a slight edge to the technology side. It would not be one sided for sure. 1DD How many combat experienced NCO's did you have serving with you back then vs. now with your son? |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:23:42 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1986 > 2016 Reason: ROE 86 we just fucking killed the enemy without asking for permission..... for an hour In 1986 what fucking people were you killing? |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:24:33 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In 1986 what fucking people were you killing? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 1986 > 2016 Reason: ROE 86 we just fucking killed the enemy without asking for permission..... for an hour In 1986 what fucking people were you killing? |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:27:28 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many combat experienced NCO's did you have serving with you back then vs. now with your son? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'll play. I went on active duty in 1987. My son is on active duty now. They have better technology in many ways now, but the overall quality of the people on a whole, is lower ( his opinion ). I would call it a draw with a slight edge to the technology side. It would not be one sided for sure. 1DD Another point in favor of the 1986 army is that we had practiced division sized maneuvers vs. COIN. Hell, we had entire artillery groups(aka brigades) back then of 155mm M109A1's and 8" M110's. We also had 155mm tactical nukes too should the shit get real. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:28:46 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In 1986 what fucking people were you killing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1986 > 2016 Reason: ROE 86 we just fucking killed the enemy without asking for permission..... for an hour In 1986 what fucking people were you killing? .. ETA Firefinder beat me to it |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:32:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was 4 years later...and it was a shit load... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1986 > 2016 Reason: ROE 86 we just fucking killed the enemy without asking for permission..... for an hour In 1986 what fucking people were you killing? So you are comparing a 4th largest 2-3rd tier army(for it's day, mind you)War, to fight against a 2016 US military? Now how did that Military do in Somalia in 1992-1994? You'll have a better answer. Rose colored glass's and all |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:35:35 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you are comparing a 4th largest 2-3rd tier army(for it's day, mind you)War, to fight against a 2016 US military? Now how did that Military do in Somalia in 1992-1994? You'll have a better answer. Rose colored glass's and all Quote HistoryQuoted: So you are comparing a 4th largest 2-3rd tier army(for it's day, mind you)War, to fight against a 2016 US military? Now how did that Military do in Somalia in 1992-1994? You'll have a better answer. Rose colored glass's and all Apples and Oranges. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:36:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Regan vs Obama
BB's vs Latorial Ships F14's vs F35s Ya 80's win. 
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:36:58 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you are comparing a 4th largest 2-3rd tier army(for it's day, mind you)War, to fight against a 2016 US military? Now how did that Military do in Somalia in 1992-1994? You'll have a better answer. Rose colored glass's and all Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1986 > 2016 Reason: ROE 86 we just fucking killed the enemy without asking for permission..... for an hour In 1986 what fucking people were you killing? So you are comparing a 4th largest 2-3rd tier army(for it's day, mind you)War, to fight against a 2016 US military? Now how did that Military do in Somalia in 1992-1994? You'll have a better answer. Rose colored glass's and all Way Different CIC And ROE, a "peace keeping" mission |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:41:00 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope, not rose colored glasses at all. Somalia? A peace keeping mission, with a force that didn't know jack about COIN, with some really jacked up ROE's. Apples and Oranges. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So you are comparing a 4th largest 2-3rd tier army(for it's day, mind you)War, to fight against a 2016 US military? Now how did that Military do in Somalia in 1992-1994? You'll have a better answer. Rose colored glass's and all Apples and Oranges. You mean a war where you cant just drop bombs on tanks and shit in the open. You mean a "War" where you actually need Infantry? Either way the US Mil in 2016 with all the bull shit you read on the the interwebs would kick the shit out 1986. Guess 1986 could just glass the ME and go on driving around in hydrogen cars |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:48:29 PM EDT
[#45]
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86 cause of the shit we used to eat out of mermite cans and the hard living. 2016 cant operate without chu , xbox / DFAC steak and crableg night , and green bean coffe. You are an integral and valuable member to this online community. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 5:58:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Way Different CIC And ROE, a "peace keeping" mission Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1986 > 2016 Reason: ROE 86 we just fucking killed the enemy without asking for permission..... for an hour In 1986 what fucking people were you killing? So you are comparing a 4th largest 2-3rd tier army(for it's day, mind you)War, to fight against a 2016 US military? Now how did that Military do in Somalia in 1992-1994? You'll have a better answer. Rose colored glass's and all Way Different CIC And ROE, a "peace keeping" mission So are you saying if 2016 had free ROE's they would kick the shit outa 1986? Look at it any way you want. Then go on a trip and by and atlas to get to Disney World to celebrate |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 6:01:31 PM EDT
[#47]
It depends. Does 1986 military get shemaghs?
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Posted: 2/12/2016 6:05:23 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are an integral and valuable member to this online community. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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86 cause of the shit we used to eat out of mermite cans and the hard living. 2016 cant operate without chu , xbox / DFAC steak and crableg night , and green bean coffe. You are an integral and valuable member to this online community. If nothing else i have been here longer , oh and the kids make it fun. 
TBH I cant say you are a value added component
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Posted: 2/12/2016 6:09:30 PM EDT
[#49]
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Quality(2016) versus Quantity(1986). I like it! I think the modern military has much more actual experience in fighting, but I think the Reagan military would scrape out a win. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1986=Reagan2016=Obama Is this really a question. Lol Quality(2016) versus Quantity(1986). I like it! I think the modern military has much more actual experience in fighting, but I think the Reagan military would scrape out a win. We might. But the current military has been fighting unconventional warfare for the last 2 decades. Put us up against any conventional force who have experience fighting conventional battles and we would probably lose, mainly due to the strategic level leadership. The U.S. Military is just now switching back to training to conventional warfare TTPs. SOF and tier one units become less usable in a large scale war than conventional units. The only ones I can see being really useful would be the Ranger Battalions because they still operate like a conventional Infantry unit only more badass. Sure, there would be strategic targets that a small team of SOF guys could take care of but they wouldn't be used like they have been used the last 2 decades and the conventional side of our military is just way out of practice both at a Mission Command level and at the direct action level. |
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Posted: 2/12/2016 6:12:15 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If nothing else i have been here longer , oh and the kids make it fun.
TBH I cant say you are a value added component Quote HistoryQuoted:
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86 cause of the shit we used to eat out of mermite cans and the hard living. 2016 cant operate without chu , xbox / DFAC steak and crableg night , and green bean coffe. You are an integral and valuable member to this online community. If nothing else i have been here longer , oh and the kids make it fun.
TBH I cant say you are a value added component I accept your heavy criticism but I can bear the weight, as you are integral and valuable member to this online community. |
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