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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/6/2024 7:06:42 PM EDT
First off I know nothing on here is official legal advice. I am just looking for general input only. Well unless there are lawyers on here willing to give free legal consultation im all ears.
If I am moving overseas and renting my house out (obviously will not store firearms there now) what is the best way to store NFA items. I do not have the luxury of having family members in the same state and I am not ready to appoint a friend as a Trustee on my trust. You just never know, good friends have falling outs all the time. My plan was to use a storage unit but I have read mixed things about using storage units? |
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Posted: 3/6/2024 7:13:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: gearsmithy]
[#1]
If it were me I'd find someone who I truly and honestly trust and put them on my trust (pretty sure that's why its called a 'trust'). I can tell you that I've met people who used to get tipped off by storage unit employees of which units have the 'goods'. That (IMHO) would be your absolute last option. I would seriously consider burying them on a family member's property before I'd put NFA items in a storage unit.
ETA: If my only option was storage unit, I'd try to find a way to securely conceal them in something not worth stealing (like a hollowed out table leg or something). IANAL so consulting an attorney might be a good idea. Also my attorney is on my trust (he's also a dear friend). |
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Posted: 3/6/2024 7:37:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Buy a Job site lock box, secure and store NFA items at your parents, brother, sisters home.
If you're going to be OCUNUS for a long while, tack weld box closed for added security. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/6/2024 7:43:09 PM EDT
[#3]
1) Add family member you trust and who is not a felon to your Trust as a Co-trustee. It doesn't matter if they live in another state or not.
2) Fill out form 5320.20 with all NFA items listed and the new address they will be residing at and send to [email protected] 3) Once you get the form back, Drop off NFA items at your family member/trustee's house with copies of stamps and of your trust that enumerates them as trustees. If you can't drop them off, you can actually mail the items directly to their door as they are trustee on the trust. 4) Move overseas 5) Come back from overseas and collect your shit |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 3/6/2024 10:27:22 PM EDT
[#4]
If they don't have the key or code, can you store at a lock box at someone else's house?
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Posted: 3/6/2024 10:49:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Consign them at a local gun store that handles that sort of thing. Spend the cash or save it. They’ll be old and out of date when you return to the states anyways.
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Posted: 3/7/2024 12:50:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ctfish15: If they don't have the key or code, can you store at a lock box at someone else's house? Yes, ATF has published this advice on their NFA FAQ for several years. |
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Posted: 3/7/2024 12:52:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GrizzlyAdams: Consign them at a local gun store that handles that sort of thing. Spend the cash or save it. They’ll be old and out of date when you return to the states anyways. Depends on what they are. One could argue that all transferable machine guns are “old and out of date” today. But sell them and try to buy replacements in a few years and see how that works out. |
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Posted: 3/7/2024 1:33:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Smurgeon: If you can't drop them off, you can actually mail the items directly to their door as they are trustee on the trust. No, you can't. While federal law allows you to ship a firearm, TO YOURSELF, at an address in another state, no such exemption exists for shipping a firearm interstate to another member of a trust. Further, UPS (in 2022) and FedEx (in 2021) stopped allowing nonlicensees to ship ANY firearm and only allow FFL's who are enrolled in their FFL shipping program. USPS does allow anyone to mail a rifle or shotgun, addressed to themselves......but NFA firearms aren't rifles or shotguns. USPS classifies them as "Handguns" for the purposes of mailing.431.2 Handguns Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. That means while you can lawfully ship a silencer/SBR/SBS/etc via USPS or FedEx you violate their tariff. They can seize that package and you will have a difficult time getting it back because you didn't follow the tariff. If you choose to mail a silencer/SBR/SBS/etc via USPS, you violate federal law.....a felony. An option not mentioned above is "gunsmithing". You could hand them to a local FFL for gunsmithing, which includes repair, cleaning, function and safety inspection. It is not a transfer requiring ATF approval. He would store them until you return. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 3/7/2024 1:37:15 PM EDT
[#9]
If the item fits, a deposit box at a local bank.
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Posted: 3/7/2024 1:37:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GrizzlyAdams: Consign them at a local gun store that handles that sort of thing. Spend the cash or save it. They’ll be old and out of date when you return to the states anyways. That means a Form 4 to the local dealer, then another Form 4 to the buyer......$400 + the cost of the firearm. NFA consignments aren't just "drop off" at the local dealer. |
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Posted: 3/9/2024 8:03:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GarrettJ: Yes, ATF has published this advice on their NFA FAQ for several years. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GarrettJ: Originally Posted By ctfish15: If they don't have the key or code, can you store at a lock box at someone else's house? Yes, ATF has published this advice on their NFA FAQ for several years. This^^^. This sounds like the easiest. Relatives to use/ friends house- lock box or even a larger gun safe if you have enough to fill it. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 7:21:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: No, you can't. While federal law allows you to ship a firearm, TO YOURSELF, at an address in another state, no such exemption exists for shipping a firearm interstate to another member of a trust. Further, UPS (in 2022) and FedEx (in 2021) stopped allowing nonlicensees to ship ANY firearm and only allow FFL's who are enrolled in their FFL shipping program. USPS does allow anyone to mail a rifle or shotgun, addressed to themselves......but NFA firearms aren't rifles or shotguns. USPS classifies them as "Handguns" for the purposes of mailing.431.2 Handguns Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. That means while you can lawfully ship a silencer/SBR/SBS/etc via USPS or FedEx you violate their tariff. They can seize that package and you will have a difficult time getting it back because you didn't follow the tariff. If you choose to mail a silencer/SBR/SBS/etc via USPS, you violate federal law.....a felony. The USPS's definition of "capable of being concealed on the person" is based on the actual physical dimensions of the firearm at the time it's mailed, not whether it's legally registered as an NFA firearm. If an SBR or SBS or even a machinegun can have a non-NFA-length barrel attached temporarily (easier with some firearm designs than others) and assuming the OAL is also long enough I don't see why it couldn't be legally mailed. Silencers would still be a problem though. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/18/2024 7:36:23 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: No, you can't. While federal law allows you to ship a firearm, TO YOURSELF, at an address in another state, no such exemption exists for shipping a firearm interstate to another member of a trust. Might want to let these guys know that... How Do I Ship NFA Firearms to An Out of State Trustee |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 7:50:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: Might want to let these guys know that... How Do I Ship NFA Firearms to An Out of State Trustee Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: Originally Posted By DogtownTom: No, you can't. While federal law allows you to ship a firearm, TO YOURSELF, at an address in another state, no such exemption exists for shipping a firearm interstate to another member of a trust. Might want to let these guys know that... How Do I Ship NFA Firearms to An Out of State Trustee You might want to read the date on that.  While he may claim his trust allows the shipment, UPS/FedEx/USPS disagree. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 7:54:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Buy a safe. If you trust your renters, leave it there. If not, put safe at relatives house
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 8:11:08 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: You might want to read the date on that. While he may claim his trust allows the shipment, UPS/FedEx/USPS disagree. You said federal law doesn't allow it, which federal law changed since they wrote that? |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 8:33:23 AM EDT
[#17]
My local range/gun club has storage for rent. Specifically meant for storing guns and gun related shit.
Banks have safety deposit boxes. OP didn't really mention the amount of NFA items, by volume, mass, or dollar amount. The answer for a few cans may not be the same as for an HK sear which wont be the same as a few dozen SBRs. |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 10:30:52 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: You said federal law doesn't allow it, which federal law changed since they wrote that? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: You said federal law doesn't allow it, which federal law changed since they wrote that? None. I said: "While federal law allows you to ship a firearm, TO YOURSELF, at an address in another state, no such exemption exists for shipping a firearm interstate to another member of a trust." § 478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees. No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section: (a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and (b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. and....... § 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier. (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part. (b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm. (c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part: Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations. (d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip. Tell us where there is an exemption for shipping interstate to another member of a trust. When you find it please let me know. If you can't find it maybe you could ask the attorney that wrote that FAQ in 2012. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 1:53:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Well if no law has changed then that legal advice from 2014 would still be valid today. Why did you point out the date?
Who owns the firearm when it's shipped? Who owns it when it's received? The trust ships it. The trust receives it. No transfer has taken place. Same as an individual shipping a firearm to himself |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 2:17:10 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: Well if no law has changed then that legal advice from 2014 would still be valid today. Why did you point out the date? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: Well if no law has changed then that legal advice from 2014 would still be valid today. Why did you point out the date? It was 2012. I pointed it out because ATF interpretation of a trust has changed, prior to 2016 when Rule 41F became effective, they treated trusts like a person, now they don't. Thats why. Further, a trust IS NOT a person. Thats one of the reasons ATF came up with the term "responsible person" in 2016. Who owns the firearm when it's shipped? Ownership is irrelevant, its a matter of possession. One can have an ownership interest in a firearm but not be able to possess that firearm. Who owns it when it's received? Irrelevant. The trust ships it. The trust receives it. No, it doesn't. Just like a bank account doesn't mail a check.....a person does. No transfer has taken place. Again, my post explained the legalities of shipping a firearm interstate. Not whether a party in another state could lawfully possess that firearm. Same as an individual shipping a firearm to himself No, it isn't. That is a specific exemption to federal law on the interstate shipment of firearms. Again, I would love to see a current citation from ATF saying that a trust can ship a gun to itself. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 4:53:04 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Again, I would love to see a current citation from ATF saying that a trust can ship a gun to itself. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Again, I would love to see a current citation from ATF saying that a trust can ship a gun to itself. Straight from the NFA handbook: the NFA also defines a person to include a partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation Person. A partnership, company, association, trust, corporation, including each responsible person associated with such an entity; an estate; or an individual. So when the ATF says: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? Yes. A person may ship a firearm to him or herself in care of another person in the state where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner "in the care of" the out of state resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner may not open the package or take possession of the firearm. May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? Yes. A partnership, company, association, trust, corporation, including each responsible person associated with such an entity; an estate; or an individual, may ship a firearm to him or herself in care of another person in the state where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner "in the care of" the out of state resident. Upon reaching its destination, persons other than the owner may not open the package or take possession of the firearm. |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 5:08:42 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: Straight from the NFA handbook: Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: Straight from the NFA handbook: Check the date on the NFA Handbook. It hasn't been updated since 2009. While it was a great resource back then, only a fool would use it as a resource now. TITLE 27 CFR CHAPTER II 479.11 The final rule didn't remove trusts from the definition of person, it added the language about responsible people Sigh. ATF doesn't regulate trusts. States do. Westlaw says: it is not a legal person So when the ATF says: What they really mean is: Yeah, run with that.  |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 5:15:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Whatever you want to tell yourself to be right...
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Posted: 3/19/2024 6:00:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: Whatever you want to tell yourself to be right... Again, I'm asking for you to tell us where there is an exemption for shipping interstate to another member of a trust. If federal law allows such a shipping exemption I would love to know where to find it in ATF regs. But no way in hell am I trusting a decade old FAQ from some lawyers website. |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 6:41:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HansohnBrothers]
[#25]
Changing custody of NFA firearms between trustees is perfectly legal (state laws not withstanding). There is no transfer taking place because trustees legally act on behalf of the trust. The only issue is how moving the NFA item between trustees is done. Apparently all shipping options are out, but what grown adults do is none of my business.
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 7:49:25 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Again, I'm asking for you to tell us where there is an exemption for shipping interstate to another member of a trust. If federal law allows such a shipping exemption I would love to know where to find it in ATF regs. But no way in hell am I trusting a decade old FAQ from some lawyers website. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Again, I'm asking for you to tell us where there is an exemption for shipping interstate to another member of a trust. If federal law allows such a shipping exemption I would love to know where to find it in ATF regs. But no way in hell am I trusting a decade old FAQ from some lawyers website. https://regulations.atf.gov/479/2023-01001 *Effective 1/31/2023 to present. Person. A partnership, company, association, trust, corporation, including each responsible person associated with such an entity; an estate; or an individual. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/479.11 Person. A partnership, company, association, trust, corporation, including each responsible person associated with such an entity; an estate; or an individual. https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/CFR-2023-title27-vol3/CFR-2023-title27-vol3-sec479-11 *This is the most recent version available on this website. Learn more about the CFR. Person. A partnership, company, association, trust, corporation, including each responsible person associated with such an entity; an estate; or an individual. Show me where the ATF says that trusts are not people. When did Westlaw start passing laws and enforcing them? Absolute clown world |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 7:51:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: I posted the exemption above. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: I posted the exemption above. No, you didn't. When did Westlaw start passing laws and enforcing them? Absolute clown world |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 8:05:58 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: No, you didn't. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: No, you didn't. See post #21 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonlicensee-ship-firearms-interstate-his-or-her-use-hunting-or-other-lawful-activity I did miss this part on the copypasta from that response: Last Reviewed October 25, 2018 |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 8:24:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: See post #21 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonlicensee-ship-firearms-interstate-his-or-her-use-hunting-or-other-lawful-activity I did miss this part on the copypasta from that response: That would be after 41F Oh good grief. Thats SHIPPING TO ONESELF. THAT'S not the same thing as shipping to another person. It's a specific exemption I referred to in my first post in this thread. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 8:31:32 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Oh good grief. Thats SHIPPING TO ONESELF. THAT'S not the same thing as shipping to another person. It's a specific exemption I referred to in my first post in this thread. Sweet, I'm glad you finally get it. The trust is shipping it to itself Small point of order...It's not really an exemption. Everything which is not forbidden is allowed |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 8:35:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By scottr: Sweet, I'm glad you finally get it. The trust is shipping it to itself Small point of order...It's not really an exemption. Everything which is not forbidden is allowed Bless your heart. |
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Posted: 3/24/2024 12:54:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: No, you can't. While federal law allows you to ship a firearm, TO YOURSELF, at an address in another state, no such exemption exists for shipping a firearm interstate to another member of a trust. Further, UPS (in 2022) and FedEx (in 2021) stopped allowing nonlicensees to ship ANY firearm and only allow FFL's who are enrolled in their FFL shipping program. USPS does allow anyone to mail a rifle or shotgun, addressed to themselves......but NFA firearms aren't rifles or shotguns. USPS classifies them as "Handguns" for the purposes of mailing.431.2 Handguns Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns. That means while you can lawfully ship a silencer/SBR/SBS/etc via USPS or FedEx you violate their tariff. They can seize that package and you will have a difficult time getting it back because you didn't follow the tariff. If you choose to mail a silencer/SBR/SBS/etc via USPS, you violate federal law.....a felony. An option not mentioned above is "gunsmithing". You could hand them to a local FFL for gunsmithing, which includes repair, cleaning, function and safety inspection. It is not a transfer requiring ATF approval. He would store them until you return. Hmmm |
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ARG
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Posted: 4/17/2024 1:17:51 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NAM: If the item fits, a deposit box at a local bank. Along with all of your other important documents (car title, 7 years of tax returns, ect...) Accountant |
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