I have only superficial knowledge of the Graffunder products. I would not be qualified to make a comparison, except to read their website and echo what they have already claimed. I'll leave the specification comparisons to the consumer. My opinions may be biased anyway, as you should expect... so I'll yield to other professionals to offer their thoughts. In non-UL listed product classes, manufacturer's construction and locking system details are usually very vague.

I really appreciate you doing this thread. I’ve read about all of it and really learned a lot.

I am in the process of purchasing an  amsec rf703620x6. I figured I might as well go all out. Is there any of the options you would recommend? Anything I should know about this model? I would really like the electric lock..which one should I get? Should I do the glass relocker or the secondary alarm? Dual locks? Do you think is total overkill for a residence? Anything you think I should n ow that I should?

Thanks a lot. Any insight is appreciated.

I understand. Seems unnecessary, but the activity level on this thread has kept it on the first pane most of the time for almost 5 years, with more hits than all but one tacked thread by a very large margin. No matter. People will seek information with searches and find what they need. I'm all about education and sharing knowledge, as I take as much from the areas of my personal interests. I trust my participation has been tempered with a fair measure of restraint from what some would call shilling (one hater specifically, we all know who that is, and likely the source of the complaint). Never-the-less, I do not want admin to be falsely accused of favoritism. I have been an admin on a busy forum, and I understand the complexities. Credibility is everything if you hope to garner respect. I can't tell you how often I suppress my need to refute or argue with some of the inflammatory and insulting remarks on other threads that are directed my way. I try to take the high road, but it's sure not easy.

I had the light kit and outlet factory installed, had a group 1 lock, and went with the 3 way bolt system. I skipped the electric lock mainly because even though good electronic locks are reliable, the best are still considered less reliable than a good standard lock. I skipped the glass relocker and the secondary alarm because I felt that a TL30x6 safe was already overkill for the kind of likely security threats I’d be facing.

I love the safe, it’s huge, and gives me piece of mind that my firearms and other valuables are about as secure as they can be In a residential setting.

Specially when the door looks like this
Attached File

Thank you.

What is the three way bolt? I don’t see that listed as an option anywhere.

It has a bolt on the top and bottom of the door

I ordered it through a local amsec dealer, and there were slot more options available than what was listed on a lot of websites. One of the cooler options that I have in my BF HD is a lock box built in the top corner with a slot you can deposit cash in — haven’t seen that option available on any website.

@TheSafeGuy can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he posted reliability data on Amsec's ESL10's in this thread. From my recollection the failure rates are comparable.

@TheSafeGuy

I recently ordered the LP redundant lock on the BF2 (should be shipped late March/early April based on lead time I was given), any data on the reliability of this particular lock?  I realize it’s fairly new and redundant, I am also aware it’s type 1/group 2mechanical so it’s pretty good quality.

We have only sold a few of these, probably less than 20 total. I see nothing in the Service Data to indicate any failures so far... good news but a small sampling. If we were selling hundreds of them, it would be more meaningful, but that's all we have...

First hit from Google search: ESL10 failure rate site:ar15.com

Pg 25

Would like to see updated numbers myself.

I have a few questions:

1. I see some gun safes marketed as "B" rated safes. What does that mean? I sort of understand RSC levels one and two and TL15 and TL30, but don't know anything about a "B" rating.

2. I recently put money down on a Superior Master 40. Given my application (it will be inside a concrete vault that has a vault door. Also, it will be surrounded on three sides with concrete walls, leaving only the door exposed.), I thought it was a reasonable choice. My question here is how do the following Superior gun safes compare to Amsec gun safes?

Superior Master is equal to an Amsec _________

Superior Supreme is equal to an Amsec _________

Superior Untouchable is equal to an Amsec _________

Thank you.

a B rated safe has at least a half-inch steel plate in the door and 1/2 inch steel plate everywhere else.

It's hard to make a direct comparison between the superior safes and the amsec safes; the Superior Master seems to be in-between an Amsec NF and BF. It has 10ga steel in the body whereas the Amsec NF has 11, while the BF has ~7ga steel between the two layers, but it only has a 1/4" steel plate in the door with a 12ga backer to get its total thickness, which is more similar to the NF as the BF uses a 1/2" thick steel plate for the door. The NF doesn't use drylight filler like the BF; not sure what any of the Superiors use.

The Supreme is a lot like the standard BF, although again point goes to the BF because it has a full 1/2" solid plate whereas the Superior has a 3/8" outer plate and a 10gauge liner. Both have 3/16" of steel in their bodies. The BF uses a concrete like mix between it's steel as a fireproofing -- there's some debate over if it also offers protection from burglary.

The Untouchable is a B rated safe, the closest gun safe Amsec has would be the BF II (not an actual B rated safe, it's an RSC class II) or one of their non-gun burglary safes.

Funny story... We have been getting lots of complaints about our Hardplates on Gunsafes being too good, and tech's are having too much trouble drilling them for service. This complaint has been coming in with more frequency in the last couple years. Finally, one of our "better" national service partners escalated this issue. So, we started reacting by doing some test drilling, finding everything was meeting the expected performance and technical specifications. We shared the news, and again the complaints rolled in.

So, I got involved and started asking a lot of questions about tools and techniques. Long-story-short, it turns out these brain surgeons are using cordless drills. Well, I guess that this is becoming rather common these days. Those are great tools, but drilling a safe hardplate take a LOT more power and speed than you think. Most cordless drills turn 300-600 RPM. A good hardplate drill choice turns 3000-6000 rpm, and even with that you need to apply really serious pressure.

I guess they finally tried a corded power drill, and shut up. It's very discouraging to see "professionals" with so little knowledge and experience. True safe guys are a rare breed these days.

Moral of the story... this is only one very small aspect in the many facets of safe servicing. If you're seeking service, finding a skilled professional is not just letting your fingers do the walking through the yellow pages. A bad safe tech, or one posing as one, can cost you a fortune. We see it all the time. A competent safe tech should be able to open a locked-out high-security safe in less than an hour, regardless of the circumstances. A good safe-tech should be pulling an RSC Gunsafe door open in less than 30 minutes all day long if they know their trade. Don't get screwed... know what to expect and seek established service providers that have a verified reputation. Highly skilled safe techs actually drill very few safes, and that's because they know far more and have training that allows better diagnostics and problem resolution, regardless of what type of safe or lock.

I have questions about the DV652.

I've noticed the price has dropped.  Is it still the same product?
Is it made in America?
Can the sounds on the ESL5 be silenced?

Seriously considering pulling the trigger at these prices.

Thank you!

ETA: How do you secure it to keep it from walking away?  Is there a cable or other piece that lets me tie it to the bed frame?
One last ETA: Is it 74lbs (as Dean Safe lists it) or 90lbs (as your website shows)?

Yes, no changes.


No, made in China. However, it is our design and made to our specifications, not some Chinese idea of a safe.


Yes. Press the key sequence C-#-8-0-#-1-# to arm Stealth Mode. (Beeper OFF)

Press the key sequence C-#-8-0-#-0-# to disarm Stealth Mode. (Beeper ON)


There are 4 anchor hoes in the floor of the safe, with larger holes thru the top for socket-wrench access. You can use the top holes to attach to the underside of the bed if desired.


Dean's weight is safe only. Our published weights include packaging for shipping purposes. The DV652 has some pretty heavy-duty packaging to prevent damage, and since it's under 100lbs, it is frequently shipped by FedEx or UPS, and they get pretty torn up going that way. The packaging on this safe will survive a 6-ft drop.

Cool.  I think I'm going to buy it.  I assume Dean is an authorized dealer (for warranty purposes)?

There is a video of a guy peddling his product who claims you product is loud to operate (beeps (which you clarified) and locking bar) if you're trying to not announce your presence, but I think I trust your elock more than his no-name who knows what 4 button e lock.

Did the ESL5 ever get UL certification?

Thanks for all your help!!!

I'm not referring to your company, and am going to paint with a broad brush here, but most of these bad safe techs are a result of safe manufacturers.

Anybody can buy a drill and a mini rig and claim to be a safe guy.  I see plenty of people who are members of the professional safe organizations who probably shouldn't be.  When the manufacturers have a problem they generally pull up one of these databases and attempt to find those who are close.  When they find more than one, they tend to use the least expensive option.

Who do you think charges less?  The guy with the drill and mini rig that has to ask the manufacturer (or other professionals) for drill points?  Or the guys who actually know what they're doing?  So the guys who don't know what they're doing get the business, and now that they're "making money" continue to take business from those who do.

You yourself say that one of your "better" service providers was having difficulty opening gun safes.  What does that say?  Tells me that you're using somebody and awful lot that you probably shouldn't have been using to begin with.  

Most people assume that if you're in business you must be 100% legitimate.  Rarely am I asked to verify any facet of my operation to prove I'm legitimate.  Customers don't care (and that includes manufacturers that hire this work out).  Rarely am I asked for proof of any sort of insurance.  Rarely am I asked to prove I'm properly licensed (including company vehicles).

I see scammers that will go out with a hole saw and cut four or five 6" holes in a safe with a hole saw and those that called them simply believe that they must know what they're doing.

Then I get the call.  Please clean up that other guy's mess.  I'm no longer interested at this point.  Everybody else is getting the bread and butter work and I'm only looked at as the clean up man.  It is getting exceedingly rare for me to get involved in anything I wasn't involved with from the very beginning.  And I'm not the only one.  This almost completes the circle of the morons who need drill points being the only ones available to use.

I recently spent about 10 hours on an ISM at a local jewelry store, but only because I'm stubborn.  The safe experienced a malfunction due to some "modifications" that we didn't know about until after swinging the door.  I was convinced I could open the safe without drilling any holes, and I did.  Most others would have started putting holes in the safe, possibly destroying it in the process.

I usually spend about an hour on a gun safe, but that includes carrying tools in and out.  I also talk a lot.  

It's clearly a race to the bottom, and I have about given up on even trying.  I'm thinking the restaurant business may be in my future.  

Yes, they are..

Yes it did. However, we had a run of bad luck and the UL Listing was voluntarily suspended. We started suffering intermittent Microprocessor (MPU) failures. We had some very expensive x-ray and dissection lab testing done and discovered defects in the MPU were the cause. When we approached the MPU manufacturer, they denied the problem, then stopped making the MPU and would not accept new orders (admission of guilt). We were forced to change the circuitry to accommodate a more reliable choice, and decided to go with a contemporary name-brand 3.3-Volt MPU. This all happened early last year. Since the change reliability has been stellar, and service failures have dropped to near zero. It was a good move, but left us to re-test with UL, which is in process now.  We do a full UL testing program in-house, and we know the listing will be restored, but until that happens the listing mark is not on the locks. Mechanically, nothing has changed.

Cool!  Thank you.

Well, when I say they end up costing more, it's because the bad safe tech has to spend much more time opening the safe, usually doesn't have the parts they need, makes multiple trips to the site, and spends more time repairing the safe or forcing the end-user to buy a new safe. They still work on an hourly rate, so any up-front quote is blown off. We see this under warranty conditions all the time. Most of the time, we are not the ones to call in the techs summoned. They are called by the consumer, so we have to work with whomever is on the job. This is where we suffer the consequences of poor experience and skills

This particular company has been in the business for decades, and has always been fairly competent. They started "growing" and therein lies the problem. It's a product of time, where the knowledge and skills are lost as people with the real wisdom retire and the next generation moves in. It seems that skilled safe techs are getting pretty sparse...


Well, be honest. That ISM was probably some exotic TRTL30X6, and dealing with a modified safe, all bets are off when you face an unknown foe. Tell us what your "normal" circumstances are. And, I said opening, not tool carry in, setup, part replacements, repairs and cleanup. I was referring to the time it takes to open the safe. Not the entire time onsite for the job.


That's great... we would LOVE to see a turnkey job done in 1 hour. It's actually pretty rare to get that kind of competence on a gunsafe opening.

I'm looking at the NF6030 and I'm curious about the inner door frame that the bolts lock behind. The NF series has an 11 gauge body, does that mean the frame that the bolts lock behind is 11 gauge as well?

The reason I ask is because the safe will be surrounded by concrete on three sides (not including the bottom) so I'm less concerned with body thickness, and would like a 1/4" door or better. I also want to make sure the 1/4" door isn't kind of a waste if the frame, or the bolts, is by far the weakest link. The price is already above the approved budget, so moving into the BF series unfortunately won't happen. The nearest dealer is about an hour and a half away, or I would just go inspect it myself.

Just trying to figure it all out. At this point the other half just might give me a blank check so I can stop spending so much time doing research. I am a believer in buy once cry once, but at the same time I want to get what makes sense for my small collection/situation.

Thank you.

Well I am looking at safes and so far like AMSEC’s offerings.  I looked at all the gun safes from the FV to the BFII.  The RF sizes don’t quite give me the best options for placement and its too heavy (probably makes it more secure though noticing the TL-30x6 rating).  The FV and NF appear to be made overseas, figure they are still good but I prefer to buy USA products (of course the price goes up with that).  I like the BF and BFII because they have more fire protection and it seems the BFII is almost a TL-15 rated safe.

I noticed not all these come with the same exterior finish options.  I see some “polished” and then the textured look.  I just would like to know what is more durable (maybe a slight advantage for security) and if there is a color preference for the texture chosen.  My hunch is that the textured finish will hold up better for scratches only and the color won’t make a hill of beans but figured I would ask.  I have a home security system that takes video and alerts me while I am not home.  Figure most safes will do for the smash and grab guys but a knowledgeable and determined guy is going to get in no matter what.  The BF and BFII have more exterior options than the others but not sure if that is something I should think about from a security standpoint or is it purely aesthetics?

This is a pure in the wind question, what is your opinion of the best AMSEC bang for the buck safe.  I base this on 70% theft and 30% on fire rating.  In a big fire think I am screwed either way, there is enough “fuel” to burn for a while.

all model nf is assembled and painted in the usa and the bf is 100% made in the usa. also i notice the nf ending with e5 in the model number are cheaper because they dont have the nice base coat clear coat paint job like a car. it would scratch just like a car. because of smooth finish. the ruff texture would resist scratches more. also touching up would be easier on the ruff finish and less noticeable. e5 models also come with the cheaper esl5 lock. other then that e5 model dont seem to have any other difference in build and mats. the main thing i notice with most of the safes ive been looking at is the locks have only a 1 year warranty. that kinda shows you how much faith a company has in their locks.

If you change the lock on amsec safe does it void the life time fire/ theft warranty or any warranty on the safe? Im leaning hard towards the nf my self but i dont want a digital locks. the failure rate is extremely high over mechanical.

I recently received my BF 2, I ordered it with the 36” LED light kit (actually 2x 39” strips), per AMSEC website it says it comes with an included battery pack.  The safe gets installed this week into a closet without a power outlet and I do not see any battery packs anywhere.  Was I supposed to receive this battery pack?  If not, where can I get my hands on one?

http://www.amsecusa.com/product/36in-led-light-kit/

I will check this out Monday

I received clarification on this, turns out the 36”kit is not compatible with the battery pack and was listed this way by error on the AMSEC website, which was promptly change when it came to the attention of someone at AMSEC (based on this issue). Kind of a bummer, but I think I’m gonna have an outlet placed next to the safe, which shouldn’t be too difficult since there is an outlet on the otherwise of the wall positioned perfectly.

Wow, I was just getting ready to post that very same answer. It took a while to get answers, sorry for the delay.

If you change the lock on amsec safe does it void the life time fire/ theft warranty or any warranty on the safe?

Well, technically if the service is not rendered by a registered tech, the safe warranty is invalid. Moreover, if a Warranty Claim is lodged, and the lock does not match the factory records, the questions will lead to authorized service proof. The trouble is that probably 90% of warranty claims are related to locks. So, any safe manufacturer is justifiably sensitive to a botched installation or a defective lock product being installed. Clearly we can't cover a lock that we didn't install, regardless of the conditions.

The Fire and Burglary lifetime warranty... a little different take on that. The Fire and Burglary Attempt replacement, no issues. These don't depend on a survival outcome, they are blank-check warranty benefits, and they only cover the safe. Of course the warranty claim has to be validated by a Police and/or Fire Department report. If the lock you had installed caused the safe to be opened under attack, or it failed to secure the door in a fire, the resulting loss of content is not covered anyway.

I would STRONGLY discourage a non-factory-authorized lock replacement during the 1-year factory warranty. You very well may be paying for the service work yourself. If you must change out a lock, have a factory authorized tech do the work and certify the job, then you're golden.

Look at it this way...  if you go buy a new car, and install a supercharger or replace the ignition system with a bunch of aftermarket hop-ups, do you expect the factory to honor the warranty if you blow up your engine? Pretty much the same deal. Best to leave things alone as long as the factory is backing your product.

Disclaimer... I am not the guy that decides policy or enforcement, and this is what I believe to be the deal...

The warranty from the lock manufacturers are also usually the same.  The warranty extends to the locksmiths or manufacturers who install the locks, not the end user.  If you buy it and install it yourself you're not covered.

Thanks for the reply just got the safe a few days ago. I like it, but i did notice a couple of issues with the interior once opened. those clips that hold the shelves most are bent up and fall out once anything is sat on the shelve, also the long gun rack seems to sag, but it might just be made that way.

TheSafeGuy, thank you for your wealth of information.  I just placed an order for a BFII7250.  Do you have any new data regarding the failure rates on the new NL Redundant(Doomsday) lock?  I still have time to change the lock to a mechanical dial if necessary.  Also, what mechanical lock does AMSEC use from the factory?

@TheSafeGuy

I have the same question about the NL Redundant Lock, any more new user data?

TIA

As previously noted, the number of orders we get for this lock are very limited. Since we came out with our patented "Redundant Lock Boltwork", the order volume has dropped even more. With such low volume, we are not gathering meaningful statistics on reliability. I know a Case pops up now and then, but I don't think it's fair to state failure rates when we sell so few.

We are currently using the Big Red on RSC Rated products, formerly known as the Lock1One. You can always ask for your lock of preference if you want. Our service history says the Big Red has been a very reliable choice. If it weren't, we would be going back to the S&G 6741 (at a higher price point).

Thank you for the answer...

But I just found this out...

"NOTE: The BF redundant boltwork feature is not available on the BF6024 or the BFII Series"

Yea, unfortunately the secondary lock simply doesn't fit on such a narrow door... we tried

Is the FV6042 discontinued or did I possibly copy the number down wrong? I don't see it on the site but swear I saw one in the local gun store. I want to say it was a FV6042E5 or EP5 for around $1400.

I can't seem to find it listed on the Amsec site and I was trying to do some research on it compared to something like the Fatboy Jr or the FV7240E5. I am limited to 27" deep due to a couple doorways so looking for the largest option that can still clear my doors.

Also does Amsec make any models that have hinges on the left side? I was hoping to install two safes side by side with doors opening more like a double door in case I want to move stuff between them and I don't have to try to work around a door in the middle of the room.

@TheSafeGuy

I just got my BFII7240 today.  Got the LP Lock.

When the safe door is locked...I came move it (the door) in and out about 1.5mm.

Is this normal?

Thanks again...

Yeah, that's pretty normal. The door seals expand to close the small gap if a fire happens. No worries.

I have a BFII as well and mine is exactly like yours in that regard, same lock.  I wouldn’t worry too much.

Hi TheSafeGuy,

First, thank you for this informative thread.  I spent roughly a day reading every page dating back to 2013 and your comments have been invaluable.  I took 2 pages worth of notes.  I love the engineering, technical, and educational aspects of your posts so really, thank you for this. I am an owner of an Amsec already and am in the process of upgrading to a larger more robust model.

1. I live in a flood prone area.  I am thinking about what would happen if there was 2-3 ft. of flood water intrusion to the safe and I had to remove everything to clean it out.  Would it be better to purchase an RFX series/CFX series or BFII series with regard to the concrete vs. DryLight mix and mold/bacteria growth concerns later?



2. I went to a local dealer over the weekend and saw a BF II 7240 in person.  I noticed the gap between the door and frame was wider in the top left than by the top right hinge side.  There was enough gap in the top left to be able to fit a flat pry tool in easily.  Is this tolerance normal on this safe?

TSG, why was the active hardplate patent allowed to expire?  Was this overkill and protection for a secondary lock was adequate?  I can imagine it would suck for owners when the active hardplate pushes in those pins.

That is being corrected, the attorney of record retired or quit business and didn't notify our offices or establish a new notification recipient for maintenance renewals. The patent is in the process of reinstatement.

I have literally read all 49 pages. What amazing info. Thank you.

I am in the market for a new safe and have narrowed it down to these three:

AMSEC BFII series
AMSEC RF703620x6 (pushing my budget hard)
Browning TL30 (a fairly new imported safe on the market)

Please help me answer a few questions I have.

I understand that on a TL30 rating, just the door is rated for 30 minutes, and the body gets a 5 minute test with TL tools.  However, on the BFII safe, it is essentially a TL10 on all sides. To me this seems the body on the BFII safe has a higher rating than a TL30 safe (such as the browning mentioned above). Can you please help clear this up for me?

Also, if I do end up with the AMSEC TL30x6, the bedroom I want to place the safe in has a 30 inch wide door. Is his safe even possible to install?.... (concrete slab)?

Thanks again. I learned more by reading this forum than over a year of other research on safes.

Currently have a Liberty Presidential but want a nice upgrade.

I have to be honest, we have not conducted any testing on safes in submerged or partial flooding conditions. We see reports from flooding events on occasion, but very little information is provided. All of these safes have cement-based fill materials that should remain solid if soaked. The BF Drylite is a more porous media, but it should normalize and dry out over time. What I can't speculate about is the mold/bacteria issue, which would be dependent on many factors that we can't control or anticipate. That would be highly influenced by the flood water contamination I suppose.

The gaps are normal, the intumescent seals make the closure with confidence in a fire. The pry resistance is not dependent on the size of the gap. Even a very small gap can be opened up with a wedge on competing safes with inferior structural integrity. Paper thin door gaps are highly over-rated. The BF/BFII has the heft to resist the pry attack with that 1/2 thick solid steel door plate, and the double-box section jamb construction. The BF series is more than the best fire-rated gunsafe in the market, it also boasts one of the most robust physical security barriers. That double-steel wall integrates into the frame construction to make the jamb area very flex-resistant. Prying a door open is all about deforming the door -and- body. Thin sheet metal "pan" style doors and single layer formed sheet metal jamb sections are far more vulnerable to deformation, the norm in drywall insulated safe lines. The BF line is a big step above conventional drywall construction safes in every way, and that's why it costs more...