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Posted: 8/22/2023 12:42:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: towerofpower94]
Seems like Diz intimated in the IS vs SOMO thread that the old "Airsoft lasers" thread isn't coming back, but a SOMO-15 thread might be kosher, so long as we leave the NGAL talk out of it. Feel free to add info on what's worked, what hasn't, and any changes in units noticed since these started coming in.
I have two SOMO-15s, both potted with green viz lasers, with SNs 721XXX and 737XXX. Each has survived a few hundred rounds of 5.56 or 5.45 while using them at the 3 o'clock on SLR rail equipped AKs. I've detected no zero shift when repeatedly checking the converging zero to a railed top cover or RSR side rail mounted RDS. Neither would keep the SOMO tape switch plug in place under recoil, but swapping in a legit ModButton Lite has worked for 60rds on the PSA AK101. The AXON single lead switch on the 5.45 rifle has not been shot since swapping it in for the SOMO switch, but it feels far more secure when putting it into the back of the SOMO-15 and I'm not expecting any issues. I'm planning to use the one on the PSA AK101 (SN 721XXX) at a night match this Saturday with review to follow. This will be more dynamic than the bipod prone or flat range up drills it's endured so far, so we'll see how it does. ETA: @Diz, please nuke if I misunderstood you in the other thread. ETA2 for pic. I've added an M640DF riding next to the ModButton up top just incase the SOMO-15 shits the bed during the match and I need to run the T-2 under white light Attached File |
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[Last Edit: Diz]
[#1]
I THINK this is kosher, as long as we contain it to the PEQ-15, which is presumably off-patent, and therefore fair game for improved versions.
But for sure the NGAL is NOT, so let's go over to the airsoft/mil-sim forum for any Chinese airsoft replicas of those. I would argue there is enough difference between a civilian legal ATPIAL and a SG PEQ-15 to pass the non-infringement test, if there was still some concern in this regard. First of all the ATPIAL has been nerfed. It only has low power IR and illum. The SG has both low and high power. So the selector knobs (and housing) are different. Then the ATPIAL illum is fixed. The SG illum is adjustable. The ATPIAL has a diffuser cover. The SG has only a cover. The ATPIAL has flush-mounted screw adjustment for both IR and illum. The SG has flush mounted IR adjustment, and raised drum illum adjustment. The ATPIAL has a different data plate surface etched into the housing. The ATPIAL comes in red viz laser only. The SG comes in red or green. The ATPIAL is not potted (at least the std models). The SG is potted (for an extra charge). The safety screw storage area is on top of the housing on the SG. It is on the side of the ATPIAL. And, obviously(?) the internals are different. The "mother board", if they say that anymore, has to be totally different. The laser modules must be different. The spring adjusters for zero are different. What is the same. Well, the housings are very close, with the difference in the well for the selector knob being different to house more choices on the SG. The illum lens is very similar although the SG one is larger. The viz/IR laser cover is very similar, except the SG one is opaque for both. The mount is very similar. Although the SG one is slightly lighter. There are virtually no interchangeable parts, although the ATPIAL/PEQ-15 illum diffuser cover is highly desirable (even if it is slightly smaller). And perhaps the viz/IR laser one as well, to get the pass-through on one, if required. The biggest similarity would be the "form factor" if you will. It lays down low on the rail, and looks like an original PEQ-15. But it's not. There are many subtle differences. Perhaps if they changed the name to SG-15, it would be even better. And put a Somo Gear logo on it, for everyone to see. I am not a patent lawyer. My thoughts are merely my opinions. Therefore, if anyone has more accurate information, please share. This is plainly marketed as an airsoft toy. Says so on their website and on their packaging. So according the mfg, these are not for real steel. With that being said what you do with it, is your own business. |
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[#2]
Originally Posted By Diz: I THINK this is kosher, as long as we contain it to the PEQ-15, which is presumably off-patent, and therefore fair game for improved versions. But for sure the NGAL is NOT, so let's go over to the airsoft/mil-sim forum for any Chinese airsoft replicas of those. I would argue there is enough difference between a civilian legal ATPIAL and a SG PEQ-15 to pass the non-infringement test, if there was still some concern in this regard. First of all the ATPIAL has been nerfed. It only has low power IR and illum. The SG has both low and high power. So the selector knobs (and housing) are different. Then the ATPIAL illum is fixed. The SG illum is adjustable. The ATPIAL has a diffuser cover. The SG has only a cover. The ATPIAL has flush-mounted screw adjustment for both IR and illum. The SG has flush mounted IR adjustment, and raised drum illum adjustment. The ATPIAL has a different data plate surface etched into the housing. The ATPIAL comes in red viz laser only. The SG comes in red or green. The ATPIAL is not potted (at least the std models). The SG is potted (for an extra charge). The safety screw storage area is on top of the housing on the SG. It is on the side of the ATPIAL. And, obviously(?) the internals are different. The "mother board", if they say that anymore, has to be totally different. The laser modules must be different. The spring adjusters for zero are different. What is the same. Well, the housings are very close, with the difference in the well for the selector knob being different to house more choices on the SG. The illum lens is very similar although the SG one is larger. The viz/IR laser cover is very similar, except the SG one is opaque for both. The mount is very similar. Although the SG one is slightly lighter. There are virtually no interchangeable parts, although the ATPIAL/PEQ-15 illum diffuser cover is highly desirable (even if it is slightly smaller). And perhaps the viz/IR laser one as well, to get the pass-through on one, if required. The biggest similarity would be the "form factor" if you will. It lays down low on the rail, and looks like an original PEQ-15. But it's not. There are many subtle differences. Perhaps if they changed the name to SG-15, it would be even better. And put a Somo Gear logo on it, for everyone to see. I am not a patent lawyer. My thoughts are merely my opinions. Therefore, if anyone has more accurate information, please share. This is plainly marketed as an airsoft toy. Says so on their website and on their packaging. So according the mfg, these are not for real steel. With that being said what you do with it, is your own business. View Quote The legit illum and laser covers will work on a SOMO-15. I swapped the SOMO covers to the L3 diffusers a month ago without issue. |
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[#3]
Total side note, but I'm seeing all the ("CHINA") labels on post titles. Are we considering Hong Kong to be "CHINA"?
If I understand correctly, Somogear is in Hong Kong. Is it actually a Chinese company? Sure, Hong Kong is a Special Administrative Region under a heavy PRC thumb, but HK has its own currency, passport/immigration/export laws, and a legal system different than China's. More like British common law and is considered more free. (Also, there's a ton of great Portuguese egg tart bakeries worth checking out there in the "airsoft district" where all the toy gun places are.) Just curious. |
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[#4]
Originally Posted By kel: Total side note, but I'm seeing all the ("CHINA") labels on post titles. Are we considering Hong Kong to be "CHINA"? If I understand correctly, Somogear is in Hong Kong. Is it actually a Chinese company? Sure, Hong Kong is a Special Administrative Region under a heavy PRC thumb, but HK has its own currency, passport/immigration/export laws, and a legal system different than China's. More like British common law and is considered more free. (Also, there's a ton of great Portuguese egg tart bakeries worth checking out there in the "airsoft district" where all the toy gun places are.) Just curious. View Quote Not too long ago, I would have agreed with you but they're effectively China now unfortunately. There's not even protests anymore as they all got locked up. |
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[Last Edit: Diz]
[#5]
Well, sadly I was just thinking about this the other day. Not only Hong Kong, but Taiwan is the Nationalist Chinese Country. But due to Kissinger's "Real Politik" these distinctions have all but disappeared.
But for sure, in my mind, if something is made in Hong Kong, or even Taiwan, I view it in a different light than Red China. But for the purposes of identifying something made by Chinese, that is for airsoft use, the [CHINA] moniker is in use. Although your split hairs are duly noted. If not concurred with. |
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[#6]
I guess to clear the air here, let's discus a few things. For those who may not be aware, and therefore "buy by mistake", as it were, here are some things to consider.
There are some threads here with a [CHINA] in front of them. This is let you know, in no uncertain terms, that Chinese Airsoft kit is being discussed. But what does that really mean? In the past few years, SOME Chinese airsoft companies have attempted to up their game, and make "replicas" of certain Laser Aiming Modules. This has created some concerns, among domestic vendors, that these companies are no longer "staying in their lane"; providing cheap copies for kids to play airsoft with, but attempting to make highly functional units, for sophisticated airsoft/mil-sim players. This in turn has caught the attention of those who are in both mil-sim and "real steel" communities. Now to some, they will never use Chinese, much less Chinese airsoft equipment. They view using these things as un-patriotic, and urge you to buy American. And others have vested interests in domestic products. They say these products are blatant rip-offs and IP infringement. And then there's a few folks, who, for various reasons, are looking at these products, and seeing if they might be of use to them. So, what's the deal. Well first let's take a look at IP infringement. Yes, some of these products are direct IP infringement. And we all have our opinions on this, but those products which can be demonstratively proven to be IP infringement are not to be discussed in this forum. Whether we agree with that, or not, them's the rules. Then let's look at this "Buy American" sentiment. There was a time I was in complete agreement with this. Today this is no longer so. What about domestic vendors. Many would be glad to guy from them, if they were allowed to sell us what we really want. So finally, are some of these products actually usable, or are they still just airsoft toys. Let's take a look at the Somo Gear "SG-15". I will list the pros and cons and leave it up to the reader to decide. Pros: -Price point. 259 bucks vs 1600+ (as compared with the ATPIAL). -Functionality. Has both low and high laser and illum settings. -Has adjustable IR illum. -Will zero and stay zero'd (practically as much as any other laser does). -Can be Potted for extra durability. -Can be had in both red and green viz laser. -Can be used with 5.56 in "normal" use. -Comes with an excellent warranty. Cons: -Is made for airsoft. -Is Chinese. -May not be as durable as mil-spec. -Has had trouble with inconsistent QC. -Mount is not as strong. -Long term durability is not yet known. -May not stand up to heavy 5.56 fire. I hope this is a fair and balanced assessment of the SG-15. It is airsoft gear and may not hold up in use, depending on what you're up to. With that in mind, some have chosen to take a chance and see if it might work for them. Whether or not this is for you, is for you to decide. |
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[Last Edit: towerofpower94]
[#7]
The SOMO-15 on my 5.56 AK performed well at the night match on Sat/Sun over the 200+ rounds I fired. No apparent loss of zero even after banging it on a VTAC and the ground while getting into some funky positions.
I loaned another SOMO-15 to a buddy who used it on a 300BO AR slinging 220gr sub handloads. The only issue we both encountered was the slight flicker caused by the battery moving under recoil and breaking the circuit. Did someone in the other thread(s) identify a solution to this? I have the battery cap snug, but don't want to torque on it anymore as I feel it's plenty secure and don't want to go ripping anything up. ETA: and the legit ModButton Lite remote switches had no issues with backing out like the SOMO switches have done in the past. |
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[#8]
Weren't people using o-rings somehow to tighten things up in battery compartment? Something to look into.
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[#9]
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[#10]
What a sad state of affairs that U.S. civilians are relegated to either paying over $3K for a laser, going with essentially useless civilian versions, or having to look at stuff made in some back ally shop in Hong Kong.
Sorry, not a very productive post, but good Lord. I am not happy about the EOTech OGL MSRP listing and the comments by some prominent YT'ers about the QC of the USNV Designate IR-V has me less than happy. I don't know how anyone could buy a Somogear and have any confidence in it whatsoever. Cheap? Perhaps relatively speaking, but it's still hundreds of bucks for something that essentially could just end up a paper weight. |
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[#11]
Originally Posted By KaerMorhenResident: What a sad state of affairs that U.S. civilians are relegated to either paying over $3K for a laser, going with essentially useless civilian versions, or having to look at stuff made in some back ally shop in Hong Kong. Sorry, not a very productive post, but good Lord. I am not happy about the EOTech OGL MSRP listing and the comments by some prominent YT'ers about the QC of the USNV Designate IR-V has me less than happy. I don't know how anyone could buy a Somogear and have any confidence in it whatsoever. Cheap? Perhaps relatively speaking, but it's still hundreds of bucks for something that essentially could just end up a paper weight. View Quote You aren't wrong in the least. Even though NV itself is decades old, i know its a far more difficult product to make, compared to a LAM. The lasers (even full power) are old news, and there is no, 0, zip, nadda excuse for an IR laser to be over $3k, when other "regular" red lasers (rated for full shooting abuse) cost $150-400 (and the china models with equally good IR laser also costs $250). |
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[#12]
I've got 4 of those paperweights and they all work pretty good so far. But to each his own.
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[#13]
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[#14]
You I had one early one (like almost two years ago now) that had that issue, but just adjusting out the spring took care of it. The others have been just fine.
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[#15]
Hopefully after this weekend I can add my opinions. I've had my SN-8xxxxxx whatever unit for two weeks now and haven't fired a shot.
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"I said,'I don't know how to vomit softly.' That's like telling someone to shit perfume."
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[#16]
Originally Posted By Diz: You I had one early one (like almost two years ago now) that had that issue, but just adjusting out the spring took care of it. The others have been just fine. View Quote You literally just "pulled the spring to make it a little longer" and you're good to go now, haha? |
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[#17]
I've been very happy with my Somos across my 5.56, .300 BLK, and .22LR rifles. The adjustment detents could be tighter, but so far so good.
I'd really like them to take a swing at a version of the PEQ-16 with an IR illuminator and a not-terrible white light. There's a lot of smaller guns that would benefit from an all-in-one solution like that. |
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[#18]
I've been shooting with my some on an x95 for months now. Its holding up and hasn't lost zero.
Last night I took some shots with the Somo next to a real Peq-15, illuminator only, set to high. Can you tell which is which? Attached File In case my cell phone gives insufficient clarity, I couldn't tell them apart when I was looking through the PVS-14. |
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"It is the tradition that a Kentuckian never runs. He does not have to."
Beard vs. United States |
[#19]
Originally Posted By erwos: I'd really like them to take a swing at a version of the PEQ-16 with an IR illuminator and a not-terrible white light. There's a lot of smaller guns that would benefit from an all-in-one solution like that. View Quote Looking at their primary market (airsoft), I don't think they would make much off a fully functioning PEQ-16B. Most firearms owners would probably be better off buying the Streamlight TLR-VIR II and VWS focusing lens. |
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[Last Edit: 9mm-SMG]
[#20]
#towerofpower94 Buddy here ...
The borrowed Somogear-15 worked well for me, and based off my experience during that night shoot I ordered one for myself the next day Originally Posted By towerofpower94: The SOMO-15 on my 5.56 AK performed well at the night match on Sat/Sun over the 200+ rounds I fired. No apparent loss of zero even after banging it on a VTAC and the ground while getting into some funky positions. I loaned another SOMO-15 to a buddy who used it on a 300BO AR slinging 220gr sub handloads. The only issue we both encountered was the slight flicker caused by the battery moving under recoil and breaking the circuit. Did someone in the other thread(s) identify a solution to this? I have the battery cap snug, but don't want to torque on it anymore as I feel it's plenty secure and don't want to go ripping anything up. ETA: and the legit ModButton Lite remote switches had no issues with backing out like the SOMO switches have done in the past. View Quote |
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[#21]
Originally Posted By 9mm-SMG: #towerofpower94 Buddy here ... The borrowed Somogear-15 worked well for me, and based off my experience during that night shoot I ordered one for myself the next day View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By 9mm-SMG: #towerofpower94 Buddy here ... The borrowed Somogear-15 worked well for me, and based off my experience during that night shoot I ordered one for myself the next day Originally Posted By towerofpower94: The SOMO-15 on my 5.56 AK performed well at the night match on Sat/Sun over the 200+ rounds I fired. No apparent loss of zero even after banging it on a VTAC and the ground while getting into some funky positions. I loaned another SOMO-15 to a buddy who used it on a 300BO AR slinging 220gr sub handloads. The only issue we both encountered was the slight flicker caused by the battery moving under recoil and breaking the circuit. Did someone in the other thread(s) identify a solution to this? I have the battery cap snug, but don't want to torque on it anymore as I feel it's plenty secure and don't want to go ripping anything up. ETA: and the legit ModButton Lite remote switches had no issues with backing out like the SOMO switches have done in the past. Hey, nice to see you’re on ARF! Please add any observations you had from the evening that I may have missed. I certainly wouldn’t go back to IZ with a SOMO-15, but for getting more rifles set up for active night shooting I think they’re a good deal. That recoil flicker is annoying though, as it makes your double tap for constant on die after the first shot. |
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[#22]
I have yet to see a video review with evidence of one holding up well. Other than a few random unknown YouTubers who come on, sit in their living room, and maybe flash a few videos into their edits I'm not really seeing anything good in terms of reviews coming out. I'm not seeing these hold up to a set number of rounds to show zero holding over time. The good videos I have seen with this show that eventually the zero shifts. I haven't seen a video yet that says the co-alignment of the viz and IR are holding up to the 10 cm at 50 yards (or is it 25 yards) claim.
These things are for airsoft or maybe .22LR copies as far as I can tell. However, in terms of airsoft it's not great that you've got individuals running around airsoft events with IR lasers made in China especially when those lasers are capable of going full power. I've been saying for years that some kind of safety standard needs to be implemented at airsoft events regarding lasers. In terms of even having it on a .22LR I suppose it gives you that weight and space take up for training, but in terms of practical use at night "eh, depends if you're lucky and get a good unit." I'm not even close to convinced these things are worth the limited cash they are going for right now. |
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[#23]
Originally Posted By KaerMorhenResident: I have yet to see a video review with evidence of one holding up well. Other than a few random unknown YouTubers who come on, sit in their living room, and maybe flash a few videos into their edits I'm not really seeing anything good in terms of reviews coming out. I'm not seeing these hold up to a set number of rounds to show zero holding over time. The good videos I have seen with this show that eventually the zero shifts. I haven't seen a video yet that says the co-alignment of the viz and IR are holding up to the 10 cm at 50 yards (or is it 25 yards) claim. These things are for airsoft or maybe .22LR copies as far as I can tell. However, in terms of airsoft it's not great that you've got individuals running around airsoft events with IR lasers made in China especially when those lasers are capable of going full power. I've been saying for years that some kind of safety standard needs to be implemented at airsoft events regarding lasers. In terms of even having it on a .22LR I suppose it gives you that weight and space take up for training, but in terms of practical use at night "eh, depends if you're lucky and get a good unit." I'm not even close to convinced these things are worth the limited cash they are going for right now. View Quote |
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"It is the tradition that a Kentuckian never runs. He does not have to."
Beard vs. United States |
[#24]
Originally Posted By KaerMorhenResident: These things are for airsoft or maybe .22LR copies as far as I can tell. However, in terms of airsoft it's not great that you've got individuals running around airsoft events with IR lasers made in China especially when those lasers are capable of going full power. I've been saying for years that some kind of safety standard needs to be implemented at airsoft events regarding lasers. In terms of even having it on a .22LR I suppose it gives you that weight and space take up for training, but in terms of practical use at night "eh, depends if you're lucky and get a good unit." View Quote I've noticed the disclaimers on SG website stating it's for airsoft only. |
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[#25]
Originally Posted By WTFShane: I've noticed the disclaimers on SG website stating it's for airsoft only. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By WTFShane: Originally Posted By KaerMorhenResident: These things are for airsoft or maybe .22LR copies as far as I can tell. However, in terms of airsoft it's not great that you've got individuals running around airsoft events with IR lasers made in China especially when those lasers are capable of going full power. I've been saying for years that some kind of safety standard needs to be implemented at airsoft events regarding lasers. In terms of even having it on a .22LR I suppose it gives you that weight and space take up for training, but in terms of practical use at night "eh, depends if you're lucky and get a good unit." I've noticed the disclaimers on SG website stating it's for airsoft only. Yep, and if the two SOMO-15s I owned sucked on actual firearms I wouldn’t pester the manufacturer for warranty support. I bought a couple out of curiosity and to see how they compare to my PERST units and PEQ-3. I’ve been pleasantly surprised up to this point, aside from the recoil induced flicker. Hoping the person who found the proper sized O-ring to add some shock absorption to the battery in the old thread chimes in again. |
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[#26]
I think it's sorta funny; we go 'round and 'round on these here discussions; guys say that they do work, and we know the QC can be hit or miss, but quality overall has continued to improve. Some folks are willing to take this for what it is, some are not. And that's OK. But to continue to post in these threads just to bash them, seems kind of pointless.
If you want to try one, go for it. If not, then don't. |
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[#27]
Used to be a believer in Somogear, but have now had 3 lasers from them fail. They were all potted and varied in MfG dates from last year to about 8 months ago. They failed on the following:
10.5” suppressed 556 at about 1200rds P320 full size in a flux raider at about 800rds 15-22 at about 4000rds The 9mm broke the housing near the mount and battery cap. The other two rattled loose internally somewhere and haven’t opened them up to see where. 1 of those will sometimes go on for a second if you hit the unit with your hand and click the button but will shut off again as soon as you shoot a few rounds. Somogear has a 180 day warranty, so not like you can do much about it either. In my opinion, not worth the hassle. As advertised, they’re for airsoft and should probably stay there. |
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[#28]
Oh wow, you must have gotten all the duds. Yeah it can be a crap shoot. Guys have had various experiences for sure.
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[#29]
OK, this here thread has been transferred back to here, again.
Ground rules. Please discuss as airsoft products only. What you do with it, is your business. If it is occasionally thrown in that you use it on RS, in the course of the conversation, no problem, but remember these products are made for airsoft use. |
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[#30]
I put the SOMO-15 that I lent to a buddy for use on his 300BO AR a few weeks ago on a PSA KS-47 rifle and zeroed the viz laser to the POA of my ACOG at 100yds. Only fired 20rds of 123gr Wolf 7.62x39 once it was zeroed, but there did not appear to be any zero shift. At this point it has taken some "more than 5.56" recoil between my buddy's 220gr subs and my 123gr 7.62x39 and seems to have held zero. Planning to use the KS-47 in a day/night match in early Nov to see how it does over a few hundred rounds in 12 stages of match use.
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