My bump-in-the-night long gun is a Benelli M2 12ga 24". It has a Nordic +6 tube extension and I've done the ghost load mod on it, so it's a 10+1.

I shoot Federal LE1321B, the reduced recoil Flitecontrol copper plated #1 buck. The longest shot I can make in my home is from my nightstand to my back door, which is about 50 feet.  At that distance the LE1321B patterns like a baseball. 15 .30 caliber projectiles is hard to argue with, and in my particular gun 11 shots means 165 .30 caliber pellets.

My wife and I live alone in a brick home, so no concerns with over penetration. We keep the doors in our house closed, so likely engagement distances are going to be shorter than my 50-foot maximum. I lose out on reload speed (obviously) and I don't run a shell carrier.

I think people get hung up too much on what they're going to use to shoot the badguy in their home. Shotguns and carbines both have their place and both will kill a badguy. It's up to you to decide which platform is best for you and your situation, then train to fight with whatever you choose. Having a plan in place on how you're going to respond is way more important in my opinion.

Wanted to thank everyone for their advice.

I got a ton out of this thread. A few things to think about, and some new rounds to try!

Actually, the shotgun part is relatively settled.

No group of individuals on this planet have shot more people with shotguns than US Law Enforcement.  

LE has not decided the shotgun is not a good defensive firearm, they have simply decided that the carbine is just that much better all around.

That determination is not - or maybe should not be - LE-specific. The situations and circumstances involving defensive use of firearms are surprisingly similar between LE and lawfully armed citizens. About the only material difference is the number of fights in and around motor vehicles with a definitive tilt toward LE in that statistic (hopefully for obvious reasons).    

So yes, it is settled for the most part and the carbine is the preferred choice.


For other ancillary discussions about shotguns for defensive use, one about reliability is always a good one where a LOT of sacred cows end-up dead on the field.

For pure mechanical reliability, go with a solid pump-action every time (Rem 870, M500/590 are usually worth trusting). For practical reliability in-use during a high-stress encounter, a modern semi is the only rational choice for the vast majority of people. There are some folk that can reliably run a pump-gun during a high-stress encounter. They are not just hunters, they don't just shoot birds (feathered or clay). and they don't just play shotgun games (although each of those can help). They are serious people, doing serious things, that use firearms for serious purposes, they study/practice little else, and - in my experience - they rarely shoot any other type of long-gun (FWIW, I've witnessed some very 'high-speed' people botch-it with a pump-gun in even moderate stress training/practice. In analysis, the pump-gun was not their primary long-gun and when they were in their very effective 'groove'. concentrating on the tactical problem-at-hand, they just blew-it when cycling the gun, especially in an awkward or unusual firing position).  

Reliable semis come in several different brands, Benelli M-series, Beretta 1300-series, Winchester/FN SX-series have earned their reputation where it counts. Remington and Mossberg semis are OK, but need too much fiddling maintenance in my mind. The other cute semis like the various AK-based incarnations, or the contraption from Turkey, offer no advantage and several critical disadvantages (not the least of which is that big gangly magazine hanging down that gives a threat a powerful leverage advantage if it all goes to hell where they can torque the gun out of your hands in an instant...and there is little you can do to stop it).

To me, OAL only matters within a specific environment. If a shotgun is to be used in a relatively open space, OAL doesn't really matter in any practical sense. In a hallway, inside a residence, in a 'bump in the night' scenario? It can matter a lot. The question is simple: Can the shooter get the muzzle centered on the threat, before the threat can get their hands on the muzzle, wherever the threat might be hiding in-wait?  If the closest place a threat can hide is 20-feet down the hall, you can mount a 30"-barreled shotgun on a wheeled carriage and likely be OK with a semi-decent tactical plan. If the broken glass and bumps are coming from your infant's room and you have a door to go through to defend them, you might want to consider something a little more agile.

The minor difference between a 18" or 20" barrel is immaterial to me. Change that to a 24"-barrel and/or extension (or longer) and the situation begins to get iffy in tight quarters.

Where OAL is the biggest consideration is just how the shooter maneuvers in their environment with it to potentially engage unexpected threats. Fully-loaded, tube-mag shotguns have a lot of their mass in front of the shooters forward hand. That mass must be definitively controlled during movement of the gun, meaning: the shooter generally must have a hard grip on the fore end and they must 'snap' the shotgun from point-to-point with firm "starts" and solid "stops" to be certain they hard-stop on target (thus, the cause of many operator-caused malfunctions with pump-guns tends to occur- a hard-hold on the fore end. This is not a problem with a semi.).


As always, your mileage - and many opinions - may vary.


MikeN

If I choose to use a shotgun for HD, I would set up a semi auto with an 8 or 9 round tube of buck and a weapon light.
That would be a lot of lead going down range very quickly,  but at the cost of 12 ga recoil. For a reload, retreating deeper into your home and stuffing shells, or simply grabbing a handgun.

The AR is better is almost every way I have concluded for my uses, and the price of a good semi auto 12 gauge is no cheaper than a good AR.

Whichever my hand touches first.

Bedrooms are on the second floor next to each other at the end of a hallway.  I'd collect the daughter, set up the Alamo in our room and call 911.  I'm staying behind furniture with any long gun pointed at the bedroom door.

Some other schmuck paid by the city can clear my house.  I'd rather pay for a new front door than risk walking into a two way range with a crack head.


Since I'm hiding waiting to ambush a silhouette, a shotgun will fucking ruin whatever wanders in.

Suppressed AR FTW.

I am enjoying this thread. I may have something shocking to offer it in the coming weeks.

Saiga 12 SBS would work in my home and neighborhood. Can't hear shit anyway and wife unit doesn't  worry about overpenetration but that's just me. Sorry no pics.

I would be very interested in your addition, for a number of reasons.

On that note (innovation), do you think we'll see any new platforms, calibers or loads that evolve a combat/self defense shotgun anytime soon?

That's a point I have to give to carbine guys. Since 1960 there has been so much development of the AR platform, while shotguns have inched along. Sure, shotguns got detachable magazines, and Flite Control, but off the top of my head all the other innovations were either in response to gov regulation, such as lead, or specialty hunting loads.

Another thing worthy of mention for carbine guys:

Where lies the harmony for an AR designated for HD?

An 8" barrel sacrifices ballistics, a 20" is a bit long for the home, but excellent in the field.

Assuming illumination, and training are there, that is.

By the way.  This is cliff hanger BS and I have neither the attention span or popcorn reserves to last that long.

In this internet day and age I demand instant posts.

You always do. Looking forward to it.

simple my wife will pick up and AR and wear you out with it. She does not care for the 870 most of us grew up with. I have always taught my family to take cover and believe in tactical penetration. How many own a suppressed 870 vs an AR?

YMMV

For the record, (and debate), I do.

That's what got me thinking about all this.

I would most certainly choose an AR over a 30" bbl Migratory Bird Act 870. (Not being a jerk, just giving you an idea where I'm coming from with my OP.)

I REALLY like how a lot of my SBSs feel in the house. (To keep this even and balanced, I'll concede this as a wash to SBR owners.)

Everything I'd consider for HD has dedicated illumination, and is able to be supressed.

Heck, we've discussed pistols too. I'll be honest, I'm loving the non-GD feedback, and am starting to believe any high capacity pistol,  AR, or shotgun would do just fine.

Take your wife. Loves ARs, shoots the hell out of them. No brainer for her. Certainly a very fine choice of weapon. She's not comfortable with the 870. That's a very logical answer. If all I had was a 24" AR I wasn't very comfortable with,  versus an 18.5" 870, I don't think anyone would judge me for picking the 870.

Just like shot placement matters,  familiarity with a weapons system matters.

That being said, I bet a bunch of us have a ton of options. That's where preferences, and why you have them is interesting to me.

My first gun was an 870. I have an attachment to them, and I'm very familiar with them. I also really like ARs, and have worn a few barrels in my day. I think about what I'd prefer sometimes,  and I still don't think I have my answer in concrete, despite some very fine discussion on this thread.

Throw in my SBS S12...oh boy, it's borderline philisophical.

I have a bit of a different take on it, I think.
I live in a very rural area, but meth heads are taking over and I do like to keep something with a bit more punch at hand. We currently have a .410 loaded with 000 sitting on the wife's side of the bed and I have my G19 and Mossberg 500 in 12ga on my side. The .300BLK and 5.56 AR's are sitting in the safe a few feet away.
The 410 sees the most use. We've taken out a lot of varmints with it. Wake up at night and nail a possum, fox, etc in the chicken coop. Both of us have nailed a fox with it past 30 yards. I was honestly surprised.

My reasoning for keeping a shotgun is simple. I grew up in South Africa, where gun laws are fairly strict. You have to "justify" each firearm you own and you can only purchase ammo for the caliber/ gauge that you are licensed to own. In that light, consolidation of calibers/ gauges is critical. I think the 12ga is extremely versatile and if you could only have one long gun (in my situation) that has to cover all forms of hunting and HD, make it a shotty. It is definitely not on the same level as an AR when it comes to speed or range, but it makes up for it in power and versatility. Everything is a trade off and reading through this thread just reiterates that pretty much all of it boils down to personal preference.

Now if suppressors were less of a PITA to obtain here in the US, I'd say a 300BLK pistol/ sbr loaded with really good expanding HP's, light, MRDS and suppressor. I have fired a pistol inside a car without earpro and I've fired a 12ga in a house (to kill a mamba) inside a living room without earpro. The blast and flash was tremendous and I suffered permanent hearing loss in one ear. I can't imagine a unsuppressed AR being any better except maybe less flash. An with that being said, if the threat is inside the house, I'd probably go with my G19. See how that pesky personal preference thing keeps popping up?

Oh and I agree...GD is not the place to go with this. I've been a member for a number of years and I only went into GD the first time a month ago. Still haven't worked up the courage to post anything

Well, this settles it. I overheard the guy behind the counter at Academy tell someone that "It's a proven psychological fact that the sound of a shotgun being racked will scare away home invaders. That way you don't have to risk hurting anyone by firing a shot."

Guess I need to take a bandsaw to my SBR before I hurt someone

C'mon man.

I get you said that in jest, but I'm trying to have a pro/con argument based on technical aspects of each weapon platform.

I'll go against the grain and argue for the shotgun.

Overall- yes, an SBR/pistol AR, suppressed, with a red dot is the best HD.  Flatout, no question.  BUT-

1)  Cost.  For $500, your HD shotgun is good to go.  To me, if I'm going to have anything other than a short-barrel/suppressed weapon, the boom of an AR is no different than the boom of a shotgun.  It'll take several years for me to get the cash together for a suppressor and SBR upper, so the AR platform doesn't hold any inherent night-fighting advantage to me.

2)  Political Potential.  If I lived in a free state, awesome.  But shotguns aren't regulated the same way as ARs.  I can use the same HD setup through most of the US, and for my lifestyle- it works.  If I could settle down in some normal place for years and years, I would.  But for someone who lives all over the US, it plays a factor.

3)  Point target destruction.  One trigger pull = 9 pellets.  If I have to fire at 3 targets, I fire three times and deliver 27 hits.  Do the same with an AR and it'll take most of the magazine and 27 trigger pulls.  Yes, an AR gets faster followup shots.  But it doesn't achieve faster destruction to the target.  You'd still have to rip out a 9-round burst per target.

4)  Capacity.  The argument that you'd be at a disadvantage with multiple attackers with a shotgun... only works if you have more attackers than the shotgun holds.  I don't see how a HD scenario has a whole squad of body-armor-wearing thugs.  So I'm not worried about capacity.  Home defense doesn't involve rolling gunfights.  If I need to reload, I have the side saddle buckshot- but I also have my HD pistol, my carry pistol, and my full-sized AR.  All within feet of my bed.  Unless I am pinned down by an MG crew, I don't see how a fully-loaded tube is "too low" capacity.

5)  Comfort.  Heck, at the end of the day, it just fits me better.  I think about it less when I use my shotgun.  Everyone has that X factor, where it just works.  For me, my bedside shotgun has that natural comfort.  It does what I want, when I want, how I want.


One of these days, I'll get the ultimate HD setup.  Till then, my shotgun sits beside my bed.

A scenario I train and equip for with seriousness, and the hope it will never occur:

In my home, day or night, one of my loved ones is being held hostage. The perp's head is directly behind her's, about 1/2 of it is exposed as he uses her for cover. The problem I have to solve is to insert a high velocity projectile into the tear duct of this perp's right eye before his victim is taken away to a "second crime scene" from where her chances of survival plummet drastically.

Situational decision-making aside if the shot can be made, or even should be taken, the tool which gives me the greatest odds of success, for me, is certainly NOT the shotgun!

The handgun shot is a possibility, limited only by my marksmanship abilities.

But the carbine shot is a much better probability, since its platform, by design, facilitates the launching of a single, powerful projectile with high precision, while enhancing my marksmanship, and offering me more capacity and overall controllability.

The precision shot is simply a critical home defense task that I can better accomplish with the carbine than the shotgun, even with a slug. And I have shotguns.

I agree that we should train the best we can.  But that scenario is improbable on an order of magnitude beyond most SWAT teams' professional careers.  Home invasion isn't D-Day, and it certainly isn't FBI HRT sniping.  Flitecontrol opens up to roughly palm size at the furthest distance in my house- so yeah, shotguns are still capable of a precise head shot.

More likely is, a drunk or confused idiot pounding on your door at 3 am.  Significantly less likely, a single burglar breaking in for a quick buck.  Much less likely, one to three burglars.  Less likely, one or more burglars being armed.  Less likely, a burglar who would stand ground.  Less likely, a burglar who would try to fight back when he's busted.  Less likely, a burglar who'd try to take a hostage.

The average HD situation in America is solved in 1-3 shots and a few seconds.

Didn't realize this thread was such serious business. I'll see myself out.

Terminal ballistics of one trigger pull is something to consider.

Submitted for you to ponder the real world meaning of DRT - Dead Right There.

Indeed it is sir! Fine post for the pro shotgun category.

This is why it was posted in Tech to begin with, to keep that type of trolling out of this.

Wasn't meant to be a troll attempt. I just found it amusing that even with of all of the viable information available these days (like this thread) some people will still spread the same old garbage around.

My apologies for inadvertently disrupting this thread. I've enjoyed reading through it

It's alright, I was just trying to keep us on topic.

After reading, and combined with your own preference, weapons owned and preference, have you come to any conclusions for your own setup?

This is what I have chosen for my HD weapon. Once I get my stamp (hopefully any day now) it will be suppressed. I chose it over a shotgun for multiple reason which I have listed below.





* I only own two shotguns, an 870 with a 28" barrel and a single shot Winchester model 37. In my opinion neither of these are equal to my SBR for HD use. I have also never trained with a shotgun for use as a HD weapon, which is yet another handicap.

* I have undoubtedly trained the most with my AR for HD, closely followed by handguns. I feel confidant (as much as you realistically can) using my AR in a HD situation, which means a lot to me.

* It is already equipped with a high quality optic and light, both of which I feel are necessary for a HD weapon.

* I prefer the extra capacity an AR offers.

* Once suppressed the risk of permanent hearing damage from firing the weapon indoors will be greatly reduced if not eliminated.



Even with the above being said I do plan on picking up an 18" or 20" barrel for my 870, adding a light and work on getting in some quality training with it.  

I live in the middle of nowhere back in the woods behind a gate. If someone is going to hit this house they are going to bring friends.

I choose the AR for

• Low Recoil


• Faster followup shots


• High capacity


• Ease of use


• Faster reload


• Familiarity


• I've experienced less malfunctions than with my pump guns


• One handed manipulation is easier

Some may be redundant or retarded, who knows.

I would do the exact same thing as you with the options you have.

SBS options blur the line for me, especially with projectile choices available and a Salvo 12. That being said, since this thread started, I've been leaving out the picture I posted earlier.

Solid addition Hammer.

I'm very interested to see what evlblkwpnz is going to bring to this discussion.

A couple of months ago, I attended a ballistics workshop for my LE job conducted by Vista Outdoors. Vista is formerly ATK, the company that owns Federal and Speer Ammo, as well as several other companies. I learned a few things that are relevant to this discussion. The class was mostly focused on handgun ammo but also included rifle and shotgun ammo.

First off, if you are concerned about overpenetration with .223/5.56 rifle ammo, look at the polymer tipped "tactical" ammo like Hornady TAP Urban. Federal also has a similar load but I can't remember what it is called. Hornady was specifically mentioned in the class because it is popular for LE ammo.

In the classroom portion of the class, it was mentioned that the poly tipped ammo typically penetrates about 6-8" in human tissues and fragments horribly (I hate to say it disintegrates, because it really doesn't, but typically all that is left is very small fragments and the deformed poly tip), as it was designed to do. It was mentioned that it is actually fairly good ammo for antipersonnel use AS LONG AS you have perfectly unobstructed shots with NO barriers. They typically cause large wound tracks and usually work well, even though they really don't meet the FBI's recommendations for duty ammo (in case you don't already know, the FBI recommends a minimum of 12" of penetration in ballistic gel testing and a maximum of 18"). This was corroborated by a couple of "Crick Dicks" taking the class (Crick Dick is a Park Ranger, Game Warden or someone similar). They related that several times a year, they have to put down wounded/injured/sick animals and their issued rifle ammo was Hornady TAP. They confirmed that, on perfectly unobstructed shots in deer, the TAP will usually produce wounds that "You could put your fist into" (direct quote from the Crick Dick). If they had practically any obstructions, like tall grass and weeds or ANY type of twigs or brush, the TAP would either start to fragment when it hit the barrier or would deflect radically away from the point of aim.

The instructor also related a point about a shooting that he had learned of. A perp was shot squarely in the forehead with one of the poly tipped bullets and, predictably, dropped like a sack of potatoes. Amazingly, after a few seconds, he got up and was promptly shot again, which killed him. At the autopsy, it was discovered that his skull was a little thicker than normal and the poly tipped round hit his skull and fragmented without penetrating. I honestly don't know if this story was true or not but the instructor swore it was.

At the range portion of the class, when the instructor shot ballistic gel, the poly tipped bullets caused HORRIFIC wounds, as promised. Also, as promised, they barely made 8-9" of penetration. When shot through barriers, they fragmented in the barrier and barely penetrated 2-3" in the gel (which was placed close to the barrier) and what did penetrate was small fragments of jacket and lead core.

On a different matter, remember the figure of 2200 feet per second. Human tissues are very elastic overall. Human tissue typically does not rip and teat unless the projectile is going 2200 FPS or more. Usually, unless you are shooting some specialty or exotic round, handgun and shotgun ammo does not get up to 2200 FPS. When velocities are below 2200 FPS, a projectile will typically just punch a hole through bodily tissues and the temporary stretch cavity doesn't do anything at all. The tissues will stretch out of the way, then snap back into position with a small hole punched through them. The size of the hole may vary a little, but unless the bullet actually cuts tissue, the hole size really won't vary much, regardless if you are shooting 9mm, .40, .45 or anything else. Buckshot rounds will punch a number of holes equal to the number of shot pellets, but that is all. If you miss the vital organs/central nervous system, the perp can continue his actions until he bleeds out, which can take a while.

Now, if you get the projectile over 2200 FPS, you start to exceed the elastic properties of the tissues. In other words, for the time that the projectile is over 2200 FPS in the body, the temporary stretch cavity becomes a permanent stretch cavity and will rip and tear the tissues, as well as punching a hole. As bullet velocity increases over 2200 FPS, so does the permanent stretch cavity. Basically, the faster the bullet, the bigger the permanent stretch cavity. If the permanent stretch cavity contacts vital organs, they can be damaged or destroyed by the permanent stretch cavity. If you use a bonded round like the Gold Dot bullets, the bullet may overpenetrate the body, but in reality, that's not a real major concern as they would have dumped a major portion of their energy into the target. Consider how many rounds fired in an engagement are misses and retain that energy. As was said (and I can't remember who was quoted), overpenetrations can get you sued, but underpenetration can get you killed.

When we got to the range portion, the instructor shot a .223 Gold Dot (I can't remember the bullet weight) and it penetrated about as far as the HST handgun bullets he had already shot. I can't remember how deep it penetrated, but it didn't exceed 18" and I want to say it penetrated 13-14". The permanent stretch cavity was awesome and would have caused a LOT of damage in bodily tissues.He also shot a Gold Dot through a windshield and into gel. After penetrating the barrier, the bullet was massively deformed but still penetrated 9-10" into the gel. A little underpenetration, sure, but the fact that the bullet punched through a windshield and still made it that far through the gel was impressive. Windshield glass is TOUGH, so drywall and other typical building materials should present  a much easier shot.

Up till that point, I kept my Mossberg 590 for home defense. Now, I have my 16" AR. I keep it loaded with Hornady 55gr TAP Urban to minimize penetration because I live in town, but I still have every confidence that it will perform better than the Mossberg. 30 shots instead of 8, lighter recoil, quicker followup shots, quicker reloads if necessary, what's not to love?

The shotgun is still a good antipersonnel weapon and performs well. In my opinion, though, the rifle/carbine works better. If you like the shotgun, I'm not going to argue with you, but I'll use my AR.

Bub75

Excellent information Bub, thanks for sharing!

Excellent analysis with which I generally agree and appreciate reading.  Perhaps, though, you may have inadvertently underestimated the mass effect of multiple projectiles simultaneously striking tissue in close proximity, even if below 2200 fps.  

The video I posted above of the buckshot load hitting the running deer is an illustration.  I think he did not get the 2,200 fps memo..

I like my rifles, especially higher powered hunting rifles in the .308, '06 and magnum categories and that is what I go to when distances are more than 40-50 yards..   Even so, I cannot discount the mass effect of buckshot at close range. Whether this produces the equivalent of a larger permanent cavitation (wound channel) or magnifies the terminal ballistic effect of the temporary wound channel, there is a huge amount of permanent tissue disruption when 9 or more buckshot pellets of #1B or larger strike in very close proximity to each other.

FliteControl 00 Buck puts all 9 pellets into a 3"to 4" gaping, ragged, interconnected hole you can put your fist into (all the way through) at home defense distance, as I demonstrated in a typical pattern posted even earlier in this thread

I still favor it, especially that load, for home defense despite al the rifles I own and use, whether 5.56 or larger caliber.

I think one of the main things is, until you see a person shot with, or at least gel testing of 5.56 shotguns seem grate an all powerful.


But after seeing it, that whole squaring of velocity thing makes tangible sense of the F=ma calculation.

This is where I was coming from when I started the thread.

8-9 projectiles with close grouping is ugly.

Then I thought about the projectile, and thought of musket ball vs minié ball. Meaning rounds balls aren't as effective as HP/spitzer bullets.

Then I thought about the effect of shortening the barrel on each.

Then I thought about (again) Buckshot's proven ability to put things down. (And your video hit the nail on the head.)

...But then a guy like Madcap comes along, with good points and real world experience.

I like Bubs post a lot, and there's a lot of good information there.

That being said, a Marine who has done it carries more weight with me than ballistic gel.

Which leaves me pleased I started this thread, because I really believe there are good technical arguments to both platforms.

...and we've only touched pistols...

All three would work. Pistols give you maneuverability, but as for shotgun vs AR?

I think here's where  I am now.

Shotgun is the best cartridge, hit for hit. For arguments sake, one round fired in a home.

AR:  More capacity, quicker followup shots, plenty effective round.

(I'm over simplifying, but trying to condense both side's arguments)

Basically your saying that shot for shot a shotgun will disrupt more tissue than 5.56, correct?

I think its absurd to believe that you'll have to make that kind of shot in a HD situation.  Better to prepare in other ways for something like this than counting on making a SWAT Sniper level shot in a waking stupor.  You won't be running into Hans Gruber in your living room holding your daughter with a gun to her head, you likely will be meeting unfriendly people in the foyer with resistance after they kick the door in, if prepped properly, well before they can reach your family.  I'd rather have a SG in this situation.  Ask what you can do to keep someone from grabbing your wife as she exits her car in the driveway, such as removing bushes near the back of the house that a robber could hide behind and wait for her to pull her car in the garage.  The PS-90, IMHO, is not a very good choice as the 5.7 is even more disorienting to the shooter when discharged indoors than 5.56 SBR's.
 

I'm open to criticism, but yes.

I understand the argument for the AR platform as a whole, and the argument stacking of its advantages. I think it has a whole lot of merit.

But if you're asking me a one shot question...yes.

However, I've never shot someone in anger, so I will defer to real world experience.

Here is a hypothesis on the matter:

Winchester military grade buckshot contains 9 pellets of 00 shot traveling at 1325 fps. If your at a typical CQB range from your target and all 9 pellets hit within a fairly close proximity to each other, wouldn't the permanent wound cavity (at the very least) be equal to 5.56?

I'm not a tactical genius, operator, etc., but the shotgun can offer more than adequate force at close range and the controls of the AR feel like home for many. I'm not done with this, but it may give you an idea of where I am going.

I know this is a technical thread but this has to be said



Seriously, I would LOVE to have something like that

No kidding. Wow, that's nice.

The base gun's design is not perfect, but I think it has a lot of potential. I hope to be posting some video soon on youtube. XTR-12 SBS will be in the title. It needs more work to run reliably and I'm pretty sure I have it figured out. It is a matter of finding time to do it. It feels just like my SBR, for the most part, and I like that. Home sweet home.

...I guess you've made the thread have a new option.  AR Style shotgun.

That looks beautiful.

Any ideas on capacity yet?

UTAS offers one 5 round mag with it and 8 round factory mags are available to order.

Pav, I hope to make it around your area sometime and shake your hand.

That would be great.

In a word:  YES!  A reliable semi-auto 12 is the way to go.  An AR srort barrel configuration for it is even better.