Hey all - definitely hoping to get some experience and input here -

So lately I have seen a very large number of people, both locally and across the forums and other places who, for reasons I don't really understand are getting rid of their Enclosed Red Dot or Holo Sight + 3X Magnifier setups, and going with LPVOS - on their SBRs and AR Pistols

I asked one friend who owns a DD MK18, with a 10.3" barrel. He recently traded his Eotech EXPS + Flip-to-Side 3X magnifier for a Trijicon Credo 1-6X. He said "Well, it's already a red dot at 1X, and now I've got any magnification I want with a throw of the lever!"

I said "yeah, well, getting a sight picture in a fast-moving situation or what other like to call a 'CQB' situation certainly isn't as fast or easy with an LPVO as it is with an MRO or Eoetch"

His response was "Yeah, but the more I practice and the faster and better I become at getting good with the LPVO at 1X, the better for me in general"

That SOUNDED like good sense to me. But on a 10.3" Barrel I don't wanna get into the whole ballistics battle about whether you're gonna be creating this or that wound channel at 400 yds out that short a barrel, or what miracle ammo is guaranteed to tumble at less than 2500fps.  All I'm wondering is, are people out there really finding LPVO's to be an advantageous replacement for a Red Dot + Magnifier combo in their various applications?

Let me know guys!

Ah yes the rabbit hole of ballistics and fragmentation thresholds... I'll make sure to tell all the dead taliban that got smacked with a 262 at 1000y and died as a result that the round was ineffective.

10.3 556 is still a RIFLE caliber. It can do more than be used as a glorified pcc.

My 12.5 and atacr combo is my favorite combo

As for the speed difference... get better and it will be just as fast

I only have one RDS/magnifier combo, frankly because I don't really like it.  I still play with it occasionally, but I refer a piggy back reflex on a prism now.  I also only have one LPVO, because frankly I don't like it that much.  It is a 1x/6x option that takes a lot longer than a piggyback/prism setup to swap magnification.  I am on the MPVO wagon now, because I can put 2x on target up close just as fast as I can 1x and get more on top with a better eye box and low light capability.  Most of my AR's that are slated for up close work have a red dot, nothing more, even though I suffer from astigmatism.  

I guess my point is, there is no perfect option for every one.  I use them all.  My preference is piggyback with a low mounted prism for a dual purpose rig.

I’m just as fast with my cheap PA lpvo as I am with my Aimpoint Pro.

I just recently checked out a Vortex SPITFIRE 3X HD Gen2 and, although it didn't end up working out for the build I had it in mind for, I was REALLY impresses with it. The Reticles on the PA Microprisms seem AMAZING, but I'm not sure if they're built as tough as the Vortex units.

I'm starting to think I could I be as well, with some practice.

If you haven't already guessed - like that friend I mentioned, I have a shorty AR currently wearing an MRO and 3X mag, and I am strongly considering switching to a nice LPVO.

I shot a match with a dude at nationals with an 11.3 and his NX 8.

For some people, they still want magnification, but they also want a short, fast swinging rifle, especially with a can on it. Personally, I like running 16-18s for the velocity So there’s less holdover. It’s your preference.

Even though I have an EXPS 3-4 with G45 on one gun, I think most red dot + magnifier setups look like ass at long range compared to a scope.

I think its easier to be faster with a red dot, but put in the work and an LPVO is "the same thing" as far as speed goes. But it really comes down to use case. I've argued before, civilians have little need for LPVO. If you start killing people at ranges where you had to dial you'll have a line of DAs waiting to break it off in your ass.

As a civilian, for home defense? Red dot. For LARP and fun? LPVO.

With a high quality LPVO you’re not really losing anything to a dedicated RDS in terms of speed at 1X.

I’ll run LPVO’s on a SBR any day.

A rifle caliber can shoot with greater accuracy than your eyes can see. Even a SBR/pistol. Your eyes determine the point at which that line is crossed. I’m not even 40 and it’s about 25-50 yards when my eyes start holding my accuracy back.

I was just having this argument with someone over on the M14 forum. He INSISTED the best possible thing for HOME DEFENSE was an M1A Socom with an LPVO. I tried to explain my position - that taking aim at an intruder on your property at any range requiring magnification, is inherently an OFFENSIVE act, not a defensive one ... and if it's his position he's ready to chance firing off a .308 in his living room with his wife & kids somewhere in the house, he should be prepared to have the flash and blast alone take HIM out of the game for a half a minute or more in that enclosed space lol...

Since I have never been able to multi-quote here,

@pacNW5 - Do you mean they LOOK loke crap or their GROUPS look like crap lol?

@45-Seventy - That's what people keep saying and I'm definitely willing to put in the practice. What LPVOs are you currently running on your shorties?

WOULD LOVE to hear from other members who recently switched from a RED DOT or HOLO + MAGNIFIER setup to an LPVO and what your experiences have been!

I too think that RDS are slightly faster than even high quality 1x LPVOs, but I fucking loathe magnifiers so I just put red dots on my LPVOs.

Many red dots don't look good under magnification since you're passing through multiple panes of glass to project that magnified image. Also, many red dots have coatings to extend their battery life so you're also looking through that distortion.

EOTech looks better than most since it's a laser hologram instead of an LED bouncing back at you.

Simple, don’t care for the scope and magnifier compromise. I’ll take a dot for something and a scope for others.

Without practice, a red dot will always be faster.
With practice, you can have very similar speeds.

I have setups with just a simple red dot, one with a red dot and magnifier, and two with LPVO with a 12 o’clock RMR and a 45 degree offset RMR.

With a good 1-6 LPVO you get a nice 1x power similar to a red dot but have the availability of magnification. With a 1-8 it’s ok but typically not as good on 1x. However, with a piggyback RMR you have the ability to run the LPVO at any power and get a red dot for quick or close threats that don’t need the magnification.
Another benefit of the piggyback RMR is it allows you to have a very familiar view (since most of us are used to the RMR platform on handguns) but it’s small enough that it weighs nothing and gives you a good peripheral view of everything around vs being more focused or locked into the LPVO.

Steiner M5xi on one and Kahles K16i on another.

I'll play devil's advocate and say that a short and light scope like an NX8 is actually perfect for civilians.  Even with the illumination off, the "T box" naturally draws your eye into alignment.  It allows you to POV targets, and it has a diopter adjustment.  I have both, but I'm going to be buying more of the LPVOs for the short guns.

I've never found the eyebox of a lpvo to be hard or even needing much training, (no competition shooting, but range hammer drills and whatnot) and as far as using it on a shorter barrel/lower velocity weapon, It's nice to have a reticle that allows for more predictable holdovers as it becomes more obvious at mid ranges than compared to a full length ar-15.

And of course for many an etched reticle is always prettier than a dot with stigmatism.

I have several LPVO and enjoy training with them but I prefer an Aimpoint T2 for the majority of my use.

I often QD my 3x magnifier and leave it in the vehicle.

Can’t see too many situations where I’d have shots in the city passed 75-100y and I routinely train out to 200 on just the dot.

Do what works best for you for using a rifle in the US cities a dot is probably best.

Fighting mountain to mountain in Afghanistan or rural areas the magnified optic is gonna shine.

Given the most likely scenario in which I'd have to use a gun outside of a range is to shoot some crazy drug addict who broke into my house, an sbr with a 1x red dot seems just about right.  

but I really like optics, I'll have to buy an lpvo someday just for fun  after I finish buying more acogs

^This

How many non-LEO stateside civilians have taken justified +100 yard/magnified shots on humans since the turn of the LAST century (1900's)?  Maybe sorta Texas tower 58 years ago...and then we might have to go back to the wild west or something.

LVPO makes sense to a patrol officer or someone in the cab of their tractor that might need to take a shot at a coyote on the far ridge.

Hunting is a great way to utilize what you practice. Just because we’re not actively engaging a threat on a regular basis doesn’t me we shouldn’t be capable of doing so and practice it.

Get out and do some local rifle matches. You can be a great shot but throw in movement, different positions, different ranges and under time and most people will be humbled pretty quick.

I did the same on my 10.3. That being said I DO prefer the Eothech and G33.  However after sending it back 2x for repair and no more warranty I’ve lost faith.  

My more recent thoughts…. Buy a sturdy optic with lifetime warranty.   Buy an optic that even if the electronics fry it has a working reticle.  With the Razor I also get a better optic with more magnification.

It is heavier, but I’m alright with that.

I had about every setup imaginable and trained heavy with all and deployed multiple times in OEF/OIF/OIR with an ACOG and CCO. I done a lot of hog hunting on the ground, in stands, off vehicles (SXS, ATV, trucks, heli), deer hunting with ARs, and 2 gun stuff.

My conclusion is picking the right tool for the right job.

HD short gun with Eotech/red dot.
Deer hunting 16” 1-6
Hog hunting on the ground 16” 1-6 with offset RD.
Clearing buildings all day short gun with Eotech.
Hog hunting from a heli Eotech
Night stuff Eotech
Gun games 16”1-6 with offset red dot. Keep it on 6x and just switch to the offset for close stuff.

(I would substitute 16” with 14.5”.  Either work for me in that roll)

The compromise for me will be the oddity when I have to shoot a long shot with an Eotech or a short shot with a 1-6 which both are capable of.

It isn't that we (non-LEO stateside civilians) are not engaging a threat (at distance) on a regular basis.  It is that we simply don't do it.  
I have no issues with people practicing marksmanship. If you want to, have at it, good skill to have.  Heck, I do it at shorter ranges with my bow and my air rifle.

But the thread is about LPVO's on SBR's and AR pistols.  If you are going to hunt, why an LPVO on a shortie over other set-ups?  That particular set-up would fall into an extremely niche/localized requirement, or unrealistic overall scenario that does not really apply to me.  

There's no hunting situations I'll be in where a LPVO would be my top choice. Literally none. I'll choose a 2-10 or 3-18 over a 1-x. If I might need short range fast type shots I'll toss a rds on top of the scope.

Hell even my lever rimfire I hunt with has a fixed 4x.

I was gonna reply to your post before the other fellow did. He makes a great point about hunting and you make a great point here, but your argument takes a lot for granted. Like, for example, that a person has both the choice and the means to engage whatever scenario with a tool purpose-built for that scenario, or that one does not need to learn how to do X because option Y is and will always be freely available. Although you may think I'm reaching here, I think you're skirting an argument about objective need. One does not NEED an LPVO for this or that scenario. One does not NEED an SBR because a bolt-gun is better suited to case X or case Y. See I think that's a very dangerous argument, even though you mean it innocently enough.

My view on this is - The idea that it is unlikely one may ever have any objective NEED for a particular skill, is a very weak argument (and I think a very dangerous one) against one wanting to LEARN a particular skill ... especially in cases like this where the learning and the experience is something we intrinsically enjoy, something we do simply for the enjoyment of learning and doing. For all but a very small number of Americans, one does not NEED to know how to hunt, if we apply the term "need" correctly. Is that a good argument against learning how to hunt?

Sure, there's no real objective need for someone to know how to engage a live target at 250yds that walks on less than 4 legs. That is by nature an offensive act, not a defensive one. Objectively speaking, it's extremely unlikely that any one civilian in this Country may ever NEED to use a firearm in defense of their life at all, at any distance. Is that a rational argument against wanting to know HOW to do so should that need arise? And I don't think it strains logic at all to say we will very likely never experience widespread civil unrest, or a breakdown of social, public & government infrastructure sufficient to warrant any kind of organized preparation in one's life for such an event; whether it's buying gold as a hedge against the monetary system, or stockpiling ammo & building a bomb shelter out on the back 40, and everything in-between. All the evidence available says you're just very unlikely to ever need it.

You begin to see how this is a dangerous argument, especially for a gunowner and ostensibly "2A" person to make. The difference between saying one will never NEED to use this or that firearm in this or that way, and saying one will never NEED to have a gun at all, is simply a matter of degree. This is how politicians make gun control sound sensible. By arguing objective need, versus our RIGHT as a citizen. This is how we got to a place where people are leaving little instruction manuals on how they should be addressed at the bottom of their emails. By using logical argument of need against one's rights to say and do as they please.

I live out in the COUNTRY country. Like nearest neighbor is a maple syrup farm 8 miles down the road, my backyard is a mountain country. Do I have any objective need to know how to defend a building against multiple armed attackers, maybe with a firearm not best suited the task? Or how to safely get my family out of an urban environment where the rule of law has totally broken down? Do I need to know how to defend my life and property in a scenario where the government and law enforcement are not coming to help? Absolutely not. But when my Wife's career took us to Baltimore not so many years ago, and we found ourselves suddenly stuck in the middle of what politicians today like to call a "Protest" (the same way people are calling 6' 5" linebacker named BRUCE a "woman" just because he's wearing a miniskirt) there are some things I wish I had known how to do. I know now, I can tell you. And I think we should be very cautious about how we, of all people, argue against anyone wanting to learn anything related to firearms, self-defense, and survival so long as it's done responsibly and with the safety of those concerned in mind.

I'm not attacking anyone here or saying anyone is wrong, I'm just saying we should be conscientious about how argue against anyone's rights, even if what they're doing sounds silly to us or we think maybe they're on the south side of good sense. That's all.

I’m saying you need both a med/long and short range setup.

There is no perfect solution for a rifle in every scenario. It’s best to plan and use the right tool
For the right job if you have the means to do so. Like just about every single SOF unit you have 2 uppers. One for close work and one for medium/long work.

What is more important is having the skills to use a carbine from 3ft to 600m no matter what is on top of it. (Irons, dots, scopes, etc).

Building your skills through training, matches, hunting, etc you will understand what YOU should take priority in for YOUR situation. Building these skills and experiences will show you where you want to make compromises on your weapons/equipment and what your priorities for them are.

Dont confuse need and want, and dont assume because you dont need it you cant simply go buy it anyways. The point is, a lot of guys love to whip up unrealistic situations to justify purchases.

If you want an LPVO buy it. If you want a SBR buy it. I think the trend you mention, swapping of optics, falls very much into this category for most users. LPVO are the new fad and so people think they have to have it to be on the cutting edge. Personally I think LPVOs have a pretty limited set of use cases in which they are noticeably better than other options. I think they fit well in comp style shooting from 0-unknown distances, and I have 2 rigs set up with LPVOs for that reason. But for actual use outside of LARPing they would probably be the last weapon I would grab.....And I dont subscribe to the "SHTF" mindset that says I need a gun for that because its not even remotely grounded in reality. I work too hard for my money to play make believe.

But as I said...if you want something then go fucking buy it. But dont imagine up fantasy scenarios attempting to justify those purchases to yourself. For what its worth, I encourage everyone to train and try different shooting techniques and gear becase its fun to do. But I've seen too many people trying to justify a large purchase such as thermal of NV under the guise of "In case SHTF"....And that is doing themselves a HUGE disservice. That amount of money would be far better served in a mutal fund than in a thermal or NV device, which is why I tell people to be honest with your situations and dont fantasize or buy into the latest hype.

2JokersWild, The reason LPVOs are the latest fad is because, like most gun "latest fad", something possibly better or more efficient has become available.  Scopes of all types have been around or a long time and, since their inception, people have been trying to adapt their use to warfare.  We are now at a point where durable, effective, efficient and even affordable low powered variable optics are available.  At low power, they appear to have pretty close to RDS usefulness for CQB.  They also offer higher magnification to take advantage of our stupid accurate combat type rifles, carbines, and SBRs, even rack grade ones.  LPVOs are popular because they work and work extremely well, whether used with a dedicated CQB optic or not.

Whether the average Joe is engaged in activities where he needs an LPVO has zero bearing on this discussion.  In normal times, predicting the future is problematic.  Right now we are in absolutely new territory and everything we think we know can be thrown out the window.  Other people's "fantasies" may not be all that fantastic.  Maybe you are more savvy than the rest of us, but I don't know exactly what I'll need to survive next year, much less what a guy in North Carolina or Los Angeles may need.  I don't recommend people spend money they don't have, but a good rifle (long or short) that's capable of accurately and quickly placing rounds on target at various distances sounds like a pretty handy thing to have for whatever may come.  An LPVO has proven to assist in doing exactly that.  You may not be worried about the future, but I am.  I don't consider myself tinfoil hat Timmy or anything.  In fact, I've spent the last 30+ years in law enforcement at various levels.  That doesn't make me an expert, but, at least, I think shows I'm not totally crazy.  Maybe, anyway  I believe it's a good idea for folks to be prepared for unusual events, because that is what I try to do.

I'm trying LPVOs and prisms right now.  I like both a lot, but can't argue against the advantages of an LPVO if someone is going to be using one rifle for everything.

I have run a number of optics over the years and have found that LPVOs are generally the best option for me and my applications. I tend to change out primary optics fairly often so I also run an offset RMR to maintain an optic that is zeroed while also replacing BUIS.

The majority of my time is spent in rural NM and TX, so right now I have a Nightforce NX8 sitting on top of my 12" upper in 5.56 and a Leupold MK6 riding on my 10.5" upper in .300 BLK. When I still had my 14.5" riding shotgun as a ranch rifle, I used an LPVO on everything from charging hogs <5 yds to running coyotes >200 yds with excellent results. One of the things that really made a difference for me was finding the mounting position, meaning height and eye relief, that worked for me.

When I shortened my barrels, I really started appreciating the size and weight that certain LPVOs offered. My NX8 (17.3 oz) and MK6 (17.6 oz) were noticeably lighter than my ATACR (21 oz) or MK8 (23.5 oz) and seemed to handle better overall, but I didn't record any timed courses to compare. Other optics that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend for an SBR would be the Kahles k16i (16.9 oz), Primary Arms PLxC (17 oz), Steiner P4Xi (17.3 oz), and the Kahles k18i (19.6 oz) depending on your personal preferences.

Well said and I agree completely. I am VERY skeptical of this whole LPVO trend, that's why I started this thread because really, what the hell do I know? I try to be practical about my gear. Like I got wayyyyyy farr down the 1911 rabbit hole for a few years. Spent well over $50k in a few short years on guns that had absolutely no practical application in my world. Thank GOD I was able to recoup some of that when I came to my senses. Now I have just 3 1911s, and a simple rule - since I don't compete, I have ZERO use for a pistol I can't carry. Each of my rigs has a specific use.... and, being realistic about both my lack of experience compared to some, and my not really being up on the "latest thing", I figured I'd ask if I was wrong to assume an LPVO probably didn't have any benefit on a shorty FOR ME.

My main argument above was simply in support of the need to be cautious about arguing need vs right. Great response and thanks!

LPVO’s are established. They’re as much a trend as the internet is at this point.

I don't get this LPVO are not as fast as a red dot argument. It simply is not so for 99% of shooting. The ONLY advantage is in VERY compromised shooting positions.

I use an 11.5" 300 BLK as a duty rifle. It is equipped with a 14oz Leupold VX5HD Firedot. Out to 50 yards, when all I need is speed of a red dot, I just use 1x. It is most certainly not slower in any drills out to that range.

At 50+ yards the magnification really helps, especially if a precise shot is needed. I can hit a 6" target 5 out of 5 times at 300 yards with that same rifle. That is the limit of the rifle and ammo combination. The ammo being factory 110 grain Barnes TAC-TX. It also makes for a great pig gun in addition to being a great patrol rifle with good barrier performance.

Sure, an LPVO is for not a deer rifle or for 300+ yard shots. Sure, a red dot  is great for awkward positions. But I can't put up sub 2 MOA groups without magnification. Heck, I can't do better than 2 MOA with a red dot and magnifier and the LPVO weighs the same as a red dot plus magnifier... I just can't remove the magnification weight like a magnifier. In return, I get a better magnified view, better clarity in low light, and more precision at distance than a red dot plus magnifier set up. Perhaps some don't see any advantage in that. Personally, I get warm and fuzzy knowing I can reliably hit 1.5" targets at 80 to 110 yards should the need arise.

Self defense is an ancillary use for all my guns.

I prefer to set them up for something I know I'll use them for, and add the possibility for self defense. An LPVO on an AR SBR makes a nice short rifle for still hunting coyotes and deer.

I guess not everyone is lucky enough to live in an area with a population density of one person per square mile. Ain't choices grand?

1X performance on LPVO’s is just as variable as their magnification. On something like an old ACSS LPVO with 8mm of exit pupil, it’s going to show. In something like a Razor at 14mm, that’s about 75% of the forgiveness of a T2 which is good.

Not all LPVO’s are created equal.

Why wouldn’t an LPVO be for 300+ yard shots? I use a 1-6x out to 700 yards on C-Zones without issue.

I should have been clearer, the trend of putting LPVO's on shortys and SBRs

I'm curious why you would think an LPVO is not for 300+ yards, or not for hunting?

Growing up I hunted with a Leupold M8 fixed 4x and killed deer from 1 yard out to 630 yards at the longest.

I routinely hunt coyotes and varmints with a 1.5x to 8x, only because I haven't drawn a deer tag yet. Hell, my elk rifle has a 1x to 6x on it.

Practice to find out what magnification you like for jump shots, you'll have plenty of time to switch magnification for deliberate shots.

Agreed.

I do most of my hunting with a 1-6x with zero issue. Hogs, deer, and coyote.

If I need more power I have a 2.5-10. I have binos, mono and spotting scope for when I need real power.

Is running down the hall to intercept a bad guy from going into one of my kids room offensive? Is shooting a fedex driver with a scoped rifle offensive if he's 100 yards away with my daughter?https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/12/08/us/texas-athena-strand-kidnapping-christmas-present
(I'm not a fan of a muzzle brake on a 16" 308 inside fwiw)

I think lpvos are great. I'm just not a fan. I think they're a bit heavy and don't really do anything substantially better.

I'd rather just live with a fixed prism. I was shooting drills With similar carbines with an aim point pro and PA 3x micro prism(I've been impressed with it so far) and was 0.1-0.2 seconds faster with the 3x. I think it was related to the reticle.

I can shoot out to distances with a rds but like a little magnification for observation and threat ID.

I think a fixed 6x scope with a rmr on top would be better /lighter than a LPVO.

To be clear, I'm not against LPVOs and I certainly think they absolutely have their use cases. So much so I have 2 rifles that have them! An Aug with a Steiner P4Xi and an AR with a Kahles K16i. I like LPVOs! But I also have 2 9mm ARs and a 300BO which wear red dots and an EOTech respectively. Those are a better use case HD rifle than the LPVO IMO.

I get people want to be "prepared for anything" but in doing so they oftentimes compromise what they should be using to be prepared for right now. An red dot is bar none hands down the fastest optic man has ever devised. LPVOs can be as fast but take a lot more training to do so. I think a lot of shooters fantasize their situation, buy equipment that doesnt fit actual real life scenarios they might find themselves in and top it off by not trainig hard to bridge gaps between what they need (Read: Whats the best tool for the job!) and what they want. This not only puts them at risk of having a subpar setup when they actually need it but also needlessly wastes money which could be better used elsewhere.

Now, I realize I'm painting with a broad brush here but.... I'd also wager money on my opinion.

I'm a LPVO guy, but I would love to see something like this.

If the 6x could be compact like an acog.

I would even take something a bit larger with a good eyebox with an integrated top MRDS mount with optional plates or something, that would be wicked cool. I would definitely try it out.

The primary arms 5X micro looks very promising, and with that company Heromod that's going to be coming out with that top mount for it looks to be a decent option, but man that Heromod mount looks like it sits kind of high which is turning me off.  The height looks like it's getting into hydra-mount territory.

There is no one trick pony. I've gone back and forth and back again. It's all good, you just have to be honest with yourself.

I was thinking just a traditional leupold 6x. The one I had had great glass. I regret letting it go.

That mount does look nice. If a bit high. But then you could drop the mount of the 5x down a scosh to help even it out.

Aren't Leupolds 1.25x on the low end?

I swapped out EOTechs with magnifiers for LPVOs and then went back to unmagnified EOTechs and PA Microprisms.

Think he is thinking fixed 6x, but I could be wrong.  Even if a 1.25 or 1.5 - 6, with the piggyback dot it really wouldn't matter.