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User Panel
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KY, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2023 2:36:08 PM EDT
Looking to purchase a complete lower and a complete pistol upper. When purchasing the complete lower does it have to be designated as a pistol lower on the website or can I just purchase any complete lower and be fine if I plan to attach a complete pistol upper to it? Hope that makes sense? Thanks.
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Posted: 11/25/2023 2:44:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jmo371]
[#1]
A lower transfers as an other, the marking pistol on some receivers means about as much as "government use only," or "m4 carbine"...what you do with it is your business, and your responsibility to follow local laws etc.
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IN, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2023 3:19:17 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jmo371: A lower transfers as an other, the marking pistol on some receivers means about as much as "government use only," or "m4 carbine"...what you do with it is your business, and your responsibility to follow local laws etc.  Attached File |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2023 3:32:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Originally Posted By deltondude: Looking to purchase a complete lower and a complete pistol upper. When purchasing the complete lower does it have to be designated as a pistol lower on the website or can I just purchase any complete lower and be fine if I plan to attach a complete pistol upper to it? Hope that makes sense? Thanks. Just be sure to remove the stock, if it has a stock, prior to pinning the short barreled upper. |
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Posted: 11/25/2023 4:14:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Cascade-Dude]
[#4]
...
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2023 4:29:40 PM EDT
[#5]
I’d recommend buying a STRIPPED lower to avoid the FFL transferring it as a “rifle”. Assembly is easy.
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MN, USA
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Posted: 11/25/2023 6:24:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Never attach it to a rifle upper or put a rifle stock on it. The moment you do either of those things, under the law, the lower becomes a "Rifle" lower and can never be used on an AR pistol again, legally. I'm 100% certain about the rifle upper but only about 75% certain about the rifle stock. That is not correct. If you build a pistol FIRST you can convert to a rifle and back to a pistol. If you make a rifle FIRST it must always remain a rifle. |
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Posted: 11/25/2023 9:05:26 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StealthyBlagga: I’d recommend buying a STRIPPED lower to avoid the FFL transferring it as a “rifle”. Assembly is easy. Assembled lowers are still an other. Shit PSA sends a little card in the box reminding ffls of this. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:27:35 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: That is not correct. If you build a pistol FIRST you can convert to a rifle and back to a pistol. If you make a rifle FIRST it must always remain a rifle. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Never attach it to a rifle upper or put a rifle stock on it. The moment you do either of those things, under the law, the lower becomes a "Rifle" lower and can never be used on an AR pistol again, legally. I'm 100% certain about the rifle upper but only about 75% certain about the rifle stock. That is not correct. If you build a pistol FIRST you can convert to a rifle and back to a pistol. If you make a rifle FIRST it must always remain a rifle. THIS is the correct answer. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 3:56:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Never attach it to a rifle upper or put a rifle stock on it. The moment you do either of those things, under the law, the lower becomes a "Rifle" lower and can never be used on an AR pistol again, legally. I'm 100% certain about the rifle upper but only about 75% certain about the rifle stock. Well you are 100% wrong. Sorry bud. The rule is first a rifle, always a rifle. The rule is NOT once a rifle, always a rifle. It matters. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 4:16:27 PM EDT
[#10]
My apologies for putting out bad information and thanks for correcting my incorrect understanding.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/27/2023 1:56:23 AM EDT
[#11]
It also doesn't matter what the transferring FFL list the lower as. It is how the manufacturer list it as shipped. There are a bunch of shops that don't know how to classify firearms.
I got a complete lower from PSA and the kid at the counter doing the transfer insisted it was a rifle. I said it should be an 'other firearm' as there was no upper attached, nor could there be with the zip tied label through the mag well. He dug in and said he was the one who worked at a gun store.😀 I said fair enough. I reached out to PSA and they stated that complete lowers are listed as 'other firearm'. But always build it as a pistol first if you are ever considering a pistol configuration in the future. Pistols can be made into a rifle and returned to a pistol. Rifle first 'locks' it to a rifle configuration. How anyone would know otherwise is beyond me, but that is the rules. |
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Posted: 11/27/2023 2:13:17 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ihon: It also doesn't matter what the transferring FFL list the lower as. It is how the manufacturer list it as shipped. There are a bunch of shops that don't know how to classify firearms. I got a complete lower from PSA and the kid at the counter doing the transfer insisted it was a rifle. I said it should be an 'other firearm' as there was no upper attached, nor could there be with the zip tied label through the mag well. He dug in and said he was the one who worked at a gun store.😀 I said fair enough. I reached out to PSA and they stated that complete lowers are listed as 'other firearm'. But always build it as a pistol first if you are ever considering a pistol configuration in the future. Pistols can be made into a rifle and returned to a pistol. Rifle first 'locks' it to a rifle configuration. How anyone would know otherwise is beyond me, but that is the rules. Correct. To see how the lower started life, you must look to the Form 2. That's the "birth" of that "firearm" and thus determines if it is an other, pistol, rifle, etc. In practice, it likely doesn't matter as I've never heard of this law, or infraction of this law, being prosecuted... but that's the letter of the law anyway. |
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Posted: 11/27/2023 2:23:01 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StealthyBlagga: I'd recommend buying a STRIPPED lower to avoid the FFL transferring it as a "rifle". Assembly is easy. |
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Posted: 11/27/2023 2:24:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Jodan1776]
[#14]
deleted
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Posted: 11/27/2023 2:27:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Never attach it to a rifle upper or put a rifle stock on it. The moment you do either of those things, under the law, the lower becomes a "Rifle" lower and can never be used on an AR pistol again, legally. I'm 100% certain about the rifle upper but only about 75% certain about the rifle stock. Whoever told you this was passing along incorrect information. Now you’re passing along incorrect information. |
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Posted: 11/27/2023 2:38:13 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jodan1776: No competent FFL would transfer it as a rifle. It's a receiver, "other" on the 4473. There are far more incompetent FFLs than competent ones. Generally it's the larger gun shops that have kids working the counter that doesn't think they have anything to learn, whereas kitchen table FFLs in general are willing to listen and learn and actually become experts on the subject, which doesn't happen overnight. I still learn stuff all the time, and I'm thankful to the fellow FFLs that help me in gaining this knowledge. That said, it doesn't matter what it's transferred as on the 4473, what matters is the Form 2 that the mfg submits to the ATF when the firearm in question is manufactured. |
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Posted: 11/27/2023 5:56:30 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TREETOP: Whoever told you this was passing along incorrect information. Now you’re passing along incorrect information. And ... I already corrected myself and apologized for my error. Thanks anyway! |
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Posted: 11/27/2023 10:15:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jodan1776: No competent FFL would transfer it as a rifle. It's a receiver, "other" on the 4473. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jodan1776: Originally Posted By StealthyBlagga: I'd recommend buying a STRIPPED lower to avoid the FFL transferring it as a "rifle". Assembly is easy. Tell that to the tens of thousands of receivers transferred before ATF wised up and corrected the 4473 to fit their own legal definitions by adding Other to the form. Just think of all those misnamed guns out there causing chaos. It’s better now but I’m sure it still gets messed up. Stocked lowers, builders kits, and probably pistol gripped shotguns still get entered incorrectly. While I think an FFL should be knowledgeable I blame it all on ATF and those that came up with the ridiculous laws. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 11/27/2023 12:13:20 PM EDT
[#19]
Thanks guys. I appreciate all the replies and explanations.
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MN, USA
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Posted: 11/28/2023 11:13:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: My apologies for putting out bad information and thanks for correcting my incorrect understanding. No worries my friend. You would be surprised how many people come here with the same misconception. Now you know, and can pass on the knowledge. |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 11:17:43 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Never attach it to a rifle upper or put a rifle stock on it. The moment you do either of those things, under the law, the lower becomes a "Rifle" lower and can never be used on an AR pistol again, legally. I'm 100% certain about the rifle upper but only about 75% certain about the rifle stock. So purchase a lower with a stock, remove the stock, pin an upper to it, it's now a pistol. Put the stock on and it becomes a rifle. ATF maintains that $200 is owed if that barrel is under 16". |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 11:23:19 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jaqufrost: As long as it is built as a pistol first it can go back and forth. So purchase a lower with a stock, remove the stock, pin an upper to it, it's now a pistol. Put the stock on and it becomes a rifle. ATF maintains that $200 is owed if that barrel is under 16". @Cascade-Dude I'd probably just go back and edit the post at this point. 
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Posted: 11/28/2023 11:51:44 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -Obsessed-: @Cascade-Dude I'd probably just go back and edit the post at this point. Good idea. Done. Thanks. |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 3:22:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Just to be clear about what I'm hearing ...
I purchased a stripped lower that was legally sold to me as "Other." I built it out as an AR Pistol with a lower kit. I legally purchased a complete .300 BO upper with a 10.5" barrel and attached it to the lower. It's been there ever since. What I am reading says that I can take that lower off that 10.5" upper, and attach it to my 6.5 mm upper with a 20" barrel and everything is perfectly legal. And that when I take the lower off the 6.5 mm upper (20") and put it back on the .300 (10.5"), that is perfectly legal too. And I can do this as many times as I wish and still be legal. Do I have it right now? Thanks. |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 3:53:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Just to be clear about what I'm hearing ... I purchased a stripped lower that was legally sold to me as "Other." I built it out as an AR Pistol with a lower kit. I legally purchased a complete .300 BO upper with a 10.5" barrel and attached it to the lower. It's been there ever since. What I am reading says that I can take that lower off that 10.5" upper, and attach it to my 6.5 mm upper with a 20" barrel and everything is perfectly legal. And that when I take the lower off the 6.5 mm upper (20") and put it back on the .300 (10.5"), that is perfectly legal too. And I can do this as many times as I wish and still be legal. Do I have it right now? Thanks. You have that correct. Just to clarify it technically doesn't matter how the receiver was listed on the 4473. It only matters how it was listed on the form 2. |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 4:40:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: Just to be clear about what I'm hearing ... I purchased a stripped lower that was legally sold to me as "Other." I built it out as an AR Pistol with a lower kit. I legally purchased a complete .300 BO upper with a 10.5" barrel and attached it to the lower. It's been there ever since. What I am reading says that I can take that lower off that 10.5" upper, and attach it to my 6.5 mm upper with a 20" barrel and everything is perfectly legal. And that when I take the lower off the 6.5 mm upper (20") and put it back on the .300 (10.5"), that is perfectly legal too. And I can do this as many times as I wish and still be legal. Do I have it right now? Thanks. |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 4:42:19 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jaqufrost: As long as the short barrel and a stock aren't on it at the same time, you're good. Unless he pays $200. Then he can swap between rifle, pistol, and SBR as he sees fit. Even more blown minds.
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Posted: 11/28/2023 4:44:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -Obsessed-: That said, it doesn't matter what it's transferred as on the 4473, what matters is the Form 2 that the mfg submits to the ATF when the firearm in question is manufactured. I've seen some heated discussions around whether you can legally ever have a Colt branded pistol because all Colts leave the factory as rifles. |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 4:48:24 PM EDT
[#29]
Here's the case law that allows pistol, rifle, pistol, etc. T/C sold a Contender pistol kit that included a rifle stock and 16" barrel. ATF said it was a SBR. Lost in court.
https://stephenhalbrook.com/thompson/#:~:text=Halbrook%2C%20Counsel%20for%20Thompson%2FCenter,5845 |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 5:26:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -Obsessed-: You have that correct. Just to clarify it technically doesn't matter how the receiver was listed on the 4473. It only matters how it was listed on the form 2. |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 5:30:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -Obsessed-]
[#31]
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GA, USA
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Posted: 11/28/2023 5:42:18 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tortilla-flats: I've seen some heated discussions around whether you can legally ever have a Colt branded pistol because all Colts leave the factory as rifles. I would "hope" that Clyde Armory would know what their doing selling Colt lowers as receivers and not rifles? https://clydearmory.com/colt-sp633784-m4-carbine-lower-receiver |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 5:48:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tortilla-flats]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OTDR: I would "hope" that Clyde Armory would know what their doing selling Colt lowers as receivers and not rifles? https://clydearmory.com/colt-sp633784-m4-carbine-lower-receiver  ETA: I don't think there is anything technically wrong with that Clyde ad. It's when its logged on the 4473 as a receiver, someone may believe they can then build it as a pistol. |
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Posted: 11/28/2023 7:22:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Thanks for the help, everybody!
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GA, USA
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Posted: 11/28/2023 10:00:11 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tortilla-flats: I don't know about Clyde, but I bought a Colt lower receiver from AU, that was transferred on a Form 4. ETA: I don't think there is anything technically wrong with that Clyde ad. It's when its logged on the 4473 as a receiver, someone may believe they can then build it as a pistol. Clyde been advertising them as pistol lowers. 
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Posted: 11/28/2023 10:43:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tortilla-flats: This is a good point. There are a lot of dealers out there that separate complete rifles and sell the uppers and lowers separately. I've seen some heated discussions around whether you can legally ever have a Colt branded pistol because all Colts leave the factory as rifles. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tortilla-flats: Originally Posted By -Obsessed-: That said, it doesn't matter what it's transferred as on the 4473, what matters is the Form 2 that the mfg submits to the ATF when the firearm in question is manufactured. I've seen some heated discussions around whether you can legally ever have a Colt branded pistol because all Colts leave the factory as rifles. The fun arguments were with the ones like this https://www.brownells.com/guns/rifles/semi-auto-rifles/m4-carbine-oem-223-remington5.56-semi-auto-rifle/. My understanding is that It's just a firearm and should be transferred as other but I doubt that happens. Just like I bet a lot of belt fed semi autos get transferred as rifles even though they don't have stocks. |
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Posted: 11/29/2023 7:47:35 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OTDR: Clyde been advertising them as pistol lowers. https://i.imgur.com/jaciwzn.jpg  |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 11/29/2023 3:28:15 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryWhen I was last in Clyde Armory they were selling these Colt advertised pistol lowers with SB4 braces as shown in the facebook screen shot, selling them with used 11.5" Diemaco uppers attached as well. Transferring them as pistols lol. Clyde Armory is owned by Andrew Clyde a US House Congressman from GA's 9" district and a staunch supporter obviously of the 2A. Lots of people still want to call him out for being anti-Trump in 2016, but after Trump won I guess he got on the Trump Train as he has Trump signs everywhere now. There are some who state every lower that ever left Colt was designated a rifle. Then others bought some Colt "spares" from Brownells a few years ago, and Brownells trasnfered as "others" and some buyers after the factcalled Colt and they didn't seem sure. Was a lot of discussion about that. So who really knows. As for how its transferred on the 4473, it does matter a little as it goes to intent. If you see a commercial ad for a "pistol lower', you go buy it in good faith, its transferd as an "other", but legally its really a rifle on the books at Colt factory, there is NO intent to be proven you were breaking the law. How is the common man suppose to know better? |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 11/29/2023 3:37:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: OTDR]
[#39]
I also got this unsolicited PM almost 2 years ago from a forum member here who works at Clyde's, blotted out his screen name to protect his privacy.
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Posted: 11/29/2023 7:36:09 PM EDT
[#40]
Ah, that was your thread. Yeah, I remember the commentary about the Brownell lowers. The conversation definitely made me rethink my pistol lower plans.
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Posted: 12/2/2023 2:26:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DogtownTom]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ihon: It also doesn't matter what the transferring FFL list the lower as. It is how the manufacturer list it as shipped. There are a bunch of shops that don't know how to classify firearms.... Not true. For one, receiving dealers are required by law to record the type of firearm they receive. Period. Not what another dealer or manufacturer believes it to be. Second, In my fifteen years as an FFL, transferring more than 25,000 firearms, I've never received a copy of a Form 2 or AFMER for any firearm shipped straight from a manufacturer that shows "as shipped" or any such nonsense. Lastly, ATF regulations define a firearm, whether it be a receiver, rifle, shotgun, etc. Not every manufacturer bothers to read those definitions. The most egregious example was the Colt "OEM" version of an AR15......shipped without a shoulder stock or forearm. Colt believed it to be a "rifle", yet it didn't meet the definition of "rifle" in ATF regs. |
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Posted: 12/2/2023 2:30:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DogtownTom]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -Obsessed-: That said, it doesn't matter what it's transferred as on the 4473, what matters is the Form 2 that the mfg submits to the ATF when the firearm in question is manufactured. I disagree. The best example is Colt "OEM" model as described above. I could send in a thousand Form 2's saying I manufactured " short barreled rifles", yet what I really manufactured was barreled receivers......that aren't actually SBR's. My Form 2 doesn't make those firearm SBR's just because I said so. Federal law/ATF regs define rifle and pistol. And again, no one sees those Form 2's but ATF. |
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Posted: 12/2/2023 2:40:54 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tortilla-flats: I don't know about Clyde, but I bought a Colt lower receiver from AU, that was transferred on a Form 4. Yep, and I just remembered I need to frame my email from my IOI and NFA Div admitting that your lower wasn't an SBR, but needed a Form 4.  |
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Posted: 12/2/2023 6:37:22 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Yep, and I just remembered I need to frame my email from my IOI and NFA Div admitting that your lower wasn't an SBR, but needed a Form 4. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DogtownTom: Originally Posted By tortilla-flats: I don't know about Clyde, but I bought a Colt lower receiver from AU, that was transferred on a Form 4. Yep, and I just remembered I need to frame my email from my IOI and NFA Div admitting that your lower wasn't an SBR, but needed a Form 4. I can't even guess how many SBR lowers have been transferred. I had a customer that did a ton before ATF stopped him. Some started zip tying uppers and screwing stocks on with instructions to send them back after transfer. Reminded me of all the nonsense some companies jump through when importing stuff due to the points system. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 2/22/2024 8:56:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Whatever, a good reason for not buying a complete lower is you typically get a standard fire-control group (trigger set) that will be so awful that you will have to put another set in it. Plus, there's no 'building' to a lower - its just 'assembling' and its easy. You can go by the standard military manuals and there are many vids to watch on the subject. Finally, after assembling a number of ARs over the years, I started buying complete guns when I bought my first new Colt in 2006. Some reasons: a complete gun has been test-fired as a unit so you know its going to function. A complete gun usually has a warranty. A complete gun usually has matching receivers that fit well together and are the same color. The whole gun was built/assembled by people who do this all day long and are good at it.
Many good manufacturers right now have great pricing. I have two Radical Firearms ARs - they are both great and the pricing was incredible. Plus, when you save that kind of money you don't mind springing for some accessories and a better trigger set. |
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