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I don't care about trying to blind the BG
ID and shoot Very nice write up / topic |
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AR15 OWNER SINCE 1983
YHVH is the man |
Nicely done, this should be tacked
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Good synopsis.
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Excellent write up. Thank you very much.
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You are only coming through in waves.
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Just what I needed- thanks for the writeup.
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Beautiful writeup, just beautiful.
You have managed to condense an entire low-light carbine class into five minutes of reading. Thank you I vote for a tack. The importance of strobing, avoiding the compulsion to lighthouse, and movement cannot be overstated. One of the homework assignments I've had to do was to take an UNLOADED carbine and employ the principles we learned on a dry run through our own homes. You'd be amazed at how differently your home looks in the dark, and how many nooks and crannies exist to hide behind. Playing flashlight tag with your kids is an eye opener too, particularly when you overlay the game with the low-light concepts you've learned in class Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”
-Alexis de Tocqueville "We're screwed." -Me |
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Nicely done, this should be tacked +1 |
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Excellent,
Mounting location whether 3-6 or 9 oclock is very important, you need to practice some real world, low or no light shooting practice, with barriers on both strong and weak side to see if your setup really works. |
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Thanks for writing that up, it filled in gaps in my knowledge that I didn't even know I had.
I was a long-time believer that a light would just show the bad guy where I was at. I just recently got a clue that it doesn't have to be that way, so now I'm shopping for a light. This article comes at the perfect time for me. |
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Posts may contain sarcasm or have been typed on equipment that contains sarcasm
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Originally Posted By Daisycutter123:
Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Nicely done, this should be tacked +1 +100 Great Info! |
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Thanks guys. Not sure if it's worth a tack though.
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A Colt is a weapon, not a measuring stick.
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Tagged for being a good read.
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Originally Posted By M4builder:
Thanks guys. Not sure if it's worth a tack though. I think it is worth it, maybe in the "Lights & Lasers" section anyway considering how many people post questions about this stuff all the time. |
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Originally Posted By Captains1911:
Nicely done, this should be tacked +1, In the market for a light and this answers everything I did not know. Great job. Thanks |
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Originally Posted By M4builder:
Thanks guys. Not sure if it's worth a tack though. I think it is. There is a ton of bogus information floating around about using a white light as a fighting tool. I'm not trying to be melodramatic, but your tutorial on the proper use of a white light could save a reader's life in a defensive situation. It could also prevent the senseless tragedy of killing a loved one. Any guide that gets people thinking is a good thing, and a welcome thing. There are many who bolt stuff onto their weapons without a lot of thought in how they would actually employ their gear in a fight. As you know, you can't simply bolt on a Surefire and pronounce your carbine GTG. We see lots of carbine pics of lights mounted in ways that would be difficult at best for the user to activate. When asked about it, I've seen people reply that they didn't want the logo upside down So yeah, a tack would be good |
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“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”
-Alexis de Tocqueville "We're screwed." -Me |
Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
Originally Posted By M4builder:
Thanks guys. Not sure if it's worth a tack though. I think it is. There is a ton of bogus information floating around about using a white light as a fighting tool. I'm not trying to be melodramatic, but your tutorial on the proper use of a white light could save a reader's life in a defensive situation. It could also prevent the senseless tragedy of killing a loved one. Any guide that gets people thinking is a good thing, and a welcome thing. There are many who bolt stuff onto their weapons without a lot of thought in how they would actually employ their gear in a fight. As you know, you can't simply bolt on a Surefire and pronounce your carbine GTG. We see lots of carbine pics of lights mounted in ways that would be difficult at best for the user to activate. When asked about it, I've seen people reply that they didn't want the logo upside down So yeah, a tack would be good I agree. This thread is worth a tack, or at least needs to be posted to one of the existing tacked threads. Maybe it could be tacked in the lights/lasers forum if nothing else. |
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...But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay...All my familiars watched for my halting...But the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one...
Jeremiah 20 9-11 |
Wow, That is one AMAZING write up! Well worth a tac and could possibly save peoples
lives just by arming them with intelligence. In the past, I would have been a lighthouse / moving target. Won't happen again thanks to you!! I really appreciate your time. |
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"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under." -Ronald Reagan
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Excellent write up.
All the tactics, (at least in my humble opinion) are sound and spot on. |
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Proud member "Ranstad's Militia, The Fantastic Bastards"
NRA Endowment life member I think arfcom is a testament to pfd devices, So many boating accidents, so few drownings. Snoopis TDI |
Well done. A good read.
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"Problem Employee"
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well written...
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Very nice. Thanks!
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Team membership courtesy of Zach556 (re: Fred Bear, The Nuge, IronPlunger & ANMINC on Youtube [img]smiley_abused.gif[/img]). Thanks, bro!
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tack in the lights forum
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AR15 OWNER SINCE 1983
YHVH is the man |
Excellent write up!
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Originally Posted By FMJ:
I dont care about try to blind the BG ID and shoot FORGOT Very nice write up / topic If you have your weapon aimed at the BG, and your light is on, he will be blind. Now, you realize your wife or child is behind him. You can't take the shot, but at least he is limited in his effectiveness until you can re-orient your position so that your family member is out of the impact zone. ....on a tangent Once, I lit up a burglar who had just ran from the back of a house. Turned out to be a drop-dead knock-out of a red headed 23 year old girl. She was unarmed. Suppressing the urge to fire on instinct until assessing the situation can have mental benefits later. |
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A Colt is a weapon, not a measuring stick.
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Good job dear.
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nice write-up... perhaps some people would like an addendum on light color choices/uses? =)
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+1 and a vote for a Tack
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Nice write up. Tack it.
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If anyone would give these methods a try, I'd like to get some feed-back as to whether or not you find them effective for you.
I find that in smaller homes these methods are less effective because you have less room to move & strobe. A small 2 bedroom home may require a different approach. I'm working on a "Confined space" bag of tricks adapted from these tried & tested methods. |
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A Colt is a weapon, not a measuring stick.
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I think this is a lot of good info. This is tack worthy.
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Definitely tack worthy. Great guide!
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A Colt is a weapon, not a measuring stick.
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Originally Posted By M4builder:
Originally Posted By FMJ:
I dont care about try to blind the BG ID and shoot FORGOT Very nice write up / topic If you have your weapon aimed at the BG, and your light is on, he will be blind. Now, you realize your wife or child is behind him. You can't take the shot, but at least he is limited in his effectiveness until you can re-orient your position so that your family member is out of the impact zone. The BG might have lost the ability to make out details about you, but he is NOT blinded enough to be unable to shoot /charge you. If you want to have this demonstrated. You need a range area you can shoot in the dark. IDPA target, target stand, the brightest light you are comfortable with potentially shooting, and a buddy to turn the light on. Set the target up, tape the light to top of the stand beside where you staple the targets (this will approximate where your light would be in regards to your hide). Let your eyes night adjust and go stand back to the target at the 10 yard line, have your buddy turn the light on and aim it at the back of your head. (Have buddy get the hell away from the target stand). Drill start! You spin in place and shoot the target. Drill end. Go and look at the perforated target that would be you, and perhaps mourn the light you shot. The time difference between doing this spin and shoot in the day light and the described light drill is fractions of a second. Accuracy is down, but still man killing good. There is no hand held light that will blind a BG into ineffectiveness, the best it will do it cost him the details of where you are. So if you lock your light on and are painting a target, you must be ready to fire instantly. Because as soon as you lock your light on, you are a target and the BG may not have seen the Surefire or Gladius strobe ad so he doesn't realize he should be curled into a little ball screaming "Teh light it burns!" He might just blaze away at your light, or charge your light. |
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Nate
NVB Gear LLC www.NVBGear.com 3960 Woodville Rd Leetonia, OH 44431 07 FFL Shop 330-482-9703 Fax 330-482-9706 [email protected] [email protected] Aimpoint -Eotech - VLTOR - Magpul - Noveske |
That is why I use the phrase "Limited in his effectiveness" in stead of "ineffective".
Anyone can get someone to pop them in the eyes with their weapon light, and then evaluate how well they could continue the fight. There is no hand held light that will blind a BG into ineffectiveness, the best it will do it cost him the details of where you are. So if you lock your light on (this is not part of the tutorial) and are painting a target, you must be ready to fire instantly (I'd have to agree with this, but only because you don't have a choice if you leave your light activated, and aren't moving). Because as soon as you lock your light on, you are a target and the BG may not have seen the Surefire or Gladius strobe ad so he doesn't realize he should be curled into a little ball screaming "Teh light it burns!" He might just blaze away at your light, or charge your light. (this is exactly what the tutorial is trying to prevent) a. If you see a possible threat using the splash, keep moving while coming to the high ready position. Orient the light to the possible threat's last known location, and activate. If the corona of the light is on the possible threat, re-orient to the face and identify whether this is a shoot or no-shoot situation. b. Using the splash/corona will allow you to quickly determine if it is a family member/non-threat and prevent you from covering them with your muzzle. c. Even if the threat dives out of the corona or spot, they will be experiencing flash blindness for more than a few moments. This will severely reduce their effectiveness with a weapon. d. Once exposed to the light, the opponents eyes will be useless in the dark for a bit, allowing you to strobe & move to a good firing location. This prevents you from sending rounds through the target into friendly occupied space. Re-read the tutorial, the BG should be seeing an afterimage while you are moving, not your light. If you Lock your light on, you will be allowing him to track your location. A better example would be to place a camera strobe on a moving target that you don't have a fix on already, like in your example. You know where the target is already on a square range. In a 360 degree world, your momentary strobe would not be in a known location from behind, would be off by the time the target turns, and you would not be in the same location as you activated the light. The next thing the BG sees of your light should be a fast flash from a new location, followed by a muzzle flash milliseconds later. |
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A Colt is a weapon, not a measuring stick.
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Originally Posted By M4builder:
That is why I use the phrase "Limited in his effectiveness" in stead of "ineffective". Anyone can get someone to pop them in the eyes with their weapon light, and then evaluate how well they could continue the fight. There is no hand held light that will blind a BG into ineffectiveness, the best it will do it cost him the details of where you are. So if you lock your light on (this is not part of the tutorial) and are painting a target, you must be ready to fire instantly (I'd have to agree with this, but only because you don't have a choice if you leave your light activated, and aren't moving).
Because as soon as you lock your light on, you are a target and the BG may not have seen the Surefire or Gladius strobe ad so he doesn't realize he should be curled into a little ball screaming "Teh light it burns!" He might just blaze away at your light, or charge your light. (this is exactly what the tutorial is trying to prevent)
a. If you see a possible threat using the splash, keep moving while coming to the high ready position. Orient the light to the possible threat's last known location, and activate. If the corona of the light is on the possible threat, re-orient to the face and identify whether this is a shoot or no-shoot situation.
b. Using the splash/corona will allow you to quickly determine if it is a family member/non-threat and prevent you from covering them with your muzzle. c. Even if the threat dives out of the corona or spot, they will be experiencing flash blindness for more than a few moments. This will severely reduce their effectiveness with a weapon. d. Once exposed to the light, the opponents eyes will be useless in the dark for a bit, allowing you to strobe & move to a good firing location. This prevents you from sending rounds through the target into friendly occupied space. Re-read the tutorial, the BG should be seeing an afterimage while you are moving, not your light. If you Lock your light on, you will be allowing him to track your location. A better example would be to place a camera strobe on a moving target that you don't have a fix on already, like in your example. You know where the target is already on a square range. In a 360 degree world, your momentary strobe would not be in a known location from behind, would be off by the time the target turns, and you would not be in the same location as you activated the light. The next thing the BG sees of your light should be a fast flash from a new location, followed by a muzzle flash milliseconds later. I bring this up as you have it correct in the tutorial, then you state that the BG will be blinded in that section I quoted. Which I why I pointed it out. Too many folks will read the blinded as exactly that BLIND. I have heard several topnotch instructors go on rants about the misinformation about handhelds and blinding folks, so I have a bit of a hair trigger on calling the use of that word into question. I agree with about 95% of what you have in the tutorial. Flash while moving (initial id) flash again (to confirm), then shoot.If you still are not certain if it is a BG or just a dipshit, KEEP moving! Do not stand still. |
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Nate
NVB Gear LLC www.NVBGear.com 3960 Woodville Rd Leetonia, OH 44431 07 FFL Shop 330-482-9703 Fax 330-482-9706 [email protected] [email protected] Aimpoint -Eotech - VLTOR - Magpul - Noveske |
My intrest is in the 5% you disagree with. Input to this is what I'm seeking.
I've instructed this course a few times now, and am looking for any ideas to consider. No way of doing things is set in stone, and if I can add to what is being taught, it will only improve the quality of the course. |
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A Colt is a weapon, not a measuring stick.
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Originally Posted By M4builder:
My intrest is in the 5% you disagree with. Input to this is what I'm seeking. I've instructed this course a few times now, and am looking for any ideas to consider. No way of doing things is set in stone, and if I can add to what is being taught, it will only improve the quality of the course. One nit we have hit, the use of the word blinding. I know it seems a small issue, but too many mfgs. Particularly one I carry (*cough* Surefire*cough*) have been marketing that you can use a handheld to blind a bad guy into submission. The likelihood of this happening is very low. I prefer the usage of disorient or as you put it reduced effectiveness. Why? Because sure as shit as soon as you use the word blind, folks will have that little Mexican looking guy from the Surefire ads in their head. Mental floss that shit out as there is the chance that someone who doesn't train enough will hesitate waiting for the "it burnz!" reaction. The other is your mentioning of filtering down a brighter light. There are too many folks out there who like their light cannons, who will decide this mean that the can put the Markovian Deathray Drop-in 200V light and dishwasher on their carbine. These tend to be a bit bulkier than the 120 lumen range LEDs out there now. This has two potential problems in my eyes. Plain old bulk hanging off the side of your rifle, too large and you will be smacking stuff. The other flows from this; you have a good filter cover and you smack your doorframe and your knule post with it and you might end up knocking it askew enough that when you do light something up you are not filtered and have now dazzled yourself. I know it seems I am assuming the worst of folks, but you need to consider that when you teach a subject hands on you can impart the importance of the little things that might not come through the internet. |
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Nate
NVB Gear LLC www.NVBGear.com 3960 Woodville Rd Leetonia, OH 44431 07 FFL Shop 330-482-9703 Fax 330-482-9706 [email protected] [email protected] Aimpoint -Eotech - VLTOR - Magpul - Noveske |
Couldn't agree more.
"Blinding" is often taken as no vision, where here it means reduced vision ability. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_blindness - is what I'm referring to in the tutorial. As for over 120 lumen lights & filters, use at your own risk. Personally, I use G2 & 9P Surefires which are 65 & 105 lumens respectively. I still use filters on them to preserve my vision. How you place (clock) the hinge of the filter can make a difference on how easy it is to use, & how easily you can accidentally open it on a door frame when using it as a support. This is one reason to stay back from "fatal funnels". I'm still using incandescent instead of LEDs. LED lights are more durable, but too diffuse IMO. I just let the user decide on that one. I should have mentioned bulk of the light in the article, too many folks do want the "death ray" lights. I've had them show up with 500 lumen M6 Guardians cobbled on to their AR that you could cook a turkey with. 6 123 batteries get pretty heavy during a 10 hour day night of training. 60-120 lumen is all anyone should ever need. |
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A Colt is a weapon, not a measuring stick.
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CAN A MOD TACK THIS
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Originally Posted By M4builder:
Couldn't agree more. "Blinding" is often taken as no vision, where here it means reduced vision ability. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_blindness - is what I'm referring to in the tutorial. As for over 120 lumen lights & filters, use at your own risk. Personally, I use G2 & 9P Surefires which are 65 & 105 lumens respectively. I still use filters on them to preserve my vision. How you place (clock) the hinge of the filter can make a difference on how easy it is to use, & how easily you can accidentally open it on a door frame when using it as a support. This is one reason to stay back from "fatal funnels". I'm still using incandescent instead of LEDs. LED lights are more durable, but too diffuse IMO. I just let the user decide on that one. I should have mentioned bulk of the light in the article, too many folks do want the "death ray" lights. I've had them show up with 500 lumen M6 Guardians cobbled on to their AR that you could cook a turkey with. 6 123 batteries get pretty heavy during a 10 hour day night of training. 60-120 lumen is all anyone should ever need. Yup, I realize the usage you have of the word blindness. Just concerned with the stupid marketing gimmicks getting stuck in a guys head. *shrug* You do what you can do and hope that they grasp the correct contextual meaning of blind. Aye, funnels suck, but many homes have them. A relatively long hall with a bathroom dividing the master bedroom from the kids bedrooms is the most common one I have seen. RE: The incan vs LED. The newer gen Surefires seem to be getting better throw and less flood. My problem with them is they are still a little too white and smoke/fog eat them up. I have LEDs on my guns and plug-in incan rechargables for "Oh shit! It is on fire" One thing that I stress when discussing this is that proper shoot on the move technique footwork is even more important in the dark than the light. Daylight your peripheral vision might notice the end table coming at you and allow you to subconsciously get ready for the impact. In night, you do not have this. So you must have yourself balanced and avoid crossing over. I am very tall and have to adjust my stance from the text book example to get a nice moving shooting platform. I was concerned about it at ToddG's AFHF class last fall enough to mention it to him. Well, during a drill he got into a location that I could not see him and made like a door jamb. I ran into him and kept hammering the targets. That really made me feel more comfortable about my SOM balance. Ask your folks to move laterally or backwards and see if they can run into something and maintain a good stance. If you fall down or lose balance in the daylight, it is almost guaranteed you will do so at night as well. If you want to practice your footwork and realize why everyone stresses no crossovers with lateral movement and why never to do a turn leading with your heal. Practice SOM in a field that hasn't been mowed in a few months. I know it seems I am tangenting off on SOM, but proper technique of it is crucial for LL/NL shooting. If you go flat footing, like you are going for a snack from the fridge, you will trip and fall at the worst possible moment. ETA: Fixed some spelling errors |
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Nate
NVB Gear LLC www.NVBGear.com 3960 Woodville Rd Leetonia, OH 44431 07 FFL Shop 330-482-9703 Fax 330-482-9706 [email protected] [email protected] Aimpoint -Eotech - VLTOR - Magpul - Noveske |
Good write up.
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"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."
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I agree with the simple and sensible tactics in this write up. Some of the discussion regarding leaving the light on while illuminating a BG is missing the point from a LE perspective. If you are searching a house that has obvious signs of forced entry, and the only thing you know is, no one is supposed to be home, more than likely the person you find in that house will NOT need to be shot. When, in the midst of the search (and with more of the house left to search) you find the burgler you have to keep him lit up. You have to check him for weapons and begin giving him verbal orders to hit the floor and surrender. You cannot do this with your light turned off. You will not be able to see what he is doing, you have given up your position and will continue to give it up because of the very loud voice commands you are issuing. Sometimes we look at low light tactics with the only outcome being... Shots fired. The vast majority of the time you will never shoot someone. Sorry to say for my non-LE friends but, if you find someone in your home you cannot just open fire. At least not in California, you must have a threat to life. If the burglar in your home decides to give up and not start shooting, you will have to keep a light on him. If you don't he now has the opportunity to escape or attack you hand-to-hand. Don't confuse military tactics (which almost always end in shots fired) with civilian or LE tactics which have a primary purpose of protecting life first.
I agree with the examples of shooting at a light at night. I have done drill similar to this with airsoft and the light or the hand holding the light gets shot alot. There is no way around it, we have to use light at night and it will give away our position. We can minimize this with some of the tactics in this write up but, we have to use light. Matt |
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Originally Posted By msloshooter: I agree with the simple and sensible tactics in this write up. Some of the discussion regarding leaving the light on while illuminating a BG is missing the point from a LE perspective. If you are searching a house that has obvious signs of forced entry, and the only thing you know is, no one is supposed to be home, more than likely the person you find in that house will NOT need to be shot. When, in the midst of the search (and with more of the house left to search) you find the burglar you have to keep him lit up. You have to check him for weapons and begin giving him verbal orders to hit the floor and surrender. You cannot do this with your light turned off. You will not be able to see what he is doing, you have given up your position and will continue to give it up because of the very loud voice commands you are issuing. Sometimes we look at low light tactics with the only outcome being... Shots fired. The vast majority of the time you will never shoot someone. Sorry to say for my non-LE friends but, if you find someone in your home you cannot just open fire. At least not in California, you must have a threat to life. If the burglar in your home decides to give up and not start shooting, you will have to keep a light on him. If you don't he now has the opportunity to escape or attack you hand-to-hand. Don't confuse military tactics (which almost always end in shots fired) with civilian or LE tactics which have a primary purpose of protecting life first. I agree with the examples of shooting at a light at night. I have done drill similar to this with airsoft and the light or the hand holding the light gets shot alot. There is no way around it, we have to use light at night and it will give away our position. We can minimize this with some of the tactics in this write up but, we have to use light. Matt In LE operations, you should not be performing house searches alone, or using a weapon mounted light to provide illumination for a body search & restraining. A second officer should be providing illumination & cover during apprehension. To do otherwise, will lead to serious weapon retention issues. If a burglar is not presenting a lethal threat, keeping him lit up is not an issue while giving verbal commands to prone out, and holding him there until a retention officer arrives. This tutorial comes from 14 years of LE work I have done, 6.5 of which were on a tactical team. It is more targeted to HD than LE operations though. |
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A Colt is a weapon, not a measuring stick.
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I vote (again) for this to be tacked. I have been wanting to get a light for my rig for quite some time now and this write up has given me a ton of info to think about.
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Yeah. Tack it.
I'm biased, M4builder is my husband |
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Originally Posted By 101st_shooter:
I'm biased, M4builder is my husband You have my deepest, most heartfelt sympathy Kidding! |
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“The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.”
-Alexis de Tocqueville "We're screwed." -Me |
Tag for review later.
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In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children
-Captain Moroni 72 B.C. |
A Colt is a weapon, not a measuring stick.
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I haven't been around this site for too long but I am just wondering what the requirements are for something being tacked???????
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