User Panel
Posted: 5/1/2024 12:42:59 PM EDT
I picked up a handful of low cost laser/lights (see other thread in this forum on that)
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Cheap-Amazon-weapon-lights-and-lasers-circa-2024-Lazy-s-comparisons-and-review/20-786095/ Of note, many of them will likely be put on a 45 degree offset mount, to stay out of the way of the main optic system. As such, they will be offset a little bit both vertically and laterally. I'm curious on zero philosphy folks use with lasers on a long-gun. In general, my guns all have pretty high nominal sight offsets(i.e. like a typical AR15) my main sight zero I use for: 9mm PCC optical zero = 25 yards (which ~100 yards) .22LR optical PCC = 25 yards (which also ~100 yards) M4 and similar 5.56 optical zero= 200 yards 6.5 Grendel guns optical zero= 100 yards With the laser being a supplemental targeting system, and likely closer encounter usage. I'm vascilating between running a15 yard zero on the lasers, or maybe a 50 yard zero on the lasers. At 15 yards, which is day-time usable distance for a green laser, that will be great, but 50 yards with such a zero would be wildly off (such as night time usage). But at 50 yards zero, I'll need to do a decent offset at closer ranges if I want it to hit within under an inch of intended. For those who have mounted a weapon laser on a rifle, what distance are you happy with? |
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[#1]
Quoted: I picked up a handful of low cost laser/lights (see other thread in this forum on that) https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Cheap-Amazon-weapon-lights-and-lasers-circa-2024-Lazy-s-comparisons-and-review/20-786095/ Of note, many of them will likely be put on a 45 degree offset mount, to stay out of the way of the main optic system. As such, they will be offset a little bit both vertically and laterally. I'm curious on zero philosphy folks use with lasers on a long-gun. In general, my guns all have pretty high nominal sight offsets(i.e. like a typical AR15) my main sight zero I use for: 9mm PCC zero = 25 yards (which ~100 yards) .22LR PCC = 25 yards (which also ~100 yards) M4 and similar 5.56 = 200 yards 6.5 Grendel guns = 100 yards I'm vascilating between running a15 yard zero on the lasers, or maybe a 50 yard zero on the lasers. At 15 yards, which is day-time usable distance for a green laser, that will be great, but 50 yards with be wildly off (such as night time usage). But at 50 yards zero, I'll need to do a decent offset at closer ranges if I want it to hit within under an inice of intended. For those who have mounted a weapon laser on a rifle, what distance are you happy with? View Quote All my lasers are parallel to my optic. So if my laser sits 1” right of my bore line and say…1.5 inches below the optic, I go to the farthest distance I can see and put the laser 1” right of my optics point of aim, and 1.5” below it. Given the more coarse adjustments of most lasers, generally speaking I just set it where ever it will be immediately low and to the right (or left) depending on the laser. Good enough. That way my holds are basically the same as they would be with my optic, for simplicity sake (less the offset of course). |
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[#2]
100 yards is best for everything unless you get into super niche stuff, IMO
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[#3]
Thank you for the replies. Neither were the direction I was going, and something I've actually thought about for a few days. My initial focus was to get a perfect zero at the most "pragmatic" practical and common distance, and try to figure out what that is. But the first reply was pretty well thought out, and got me thinking that may not be the way to go here...
The thought of "just run the offset" is an interesting one. I was trying to focus on zeroing it for a best-distance, recognizing that a laser tends to be shorter range. But the problem with that, is if the system has any meaningful barrel offset (and most do), you're still going to get way off at any other distance. Offset impacts at shorter distance are inescapable regardless of whatever distance I chose. And if I choose a really short distance like 7 yards, the farther distance offsets are still going to get insane to the point of non-usable. After a re-pondering, I think what I might do is start with the question: what is the maximum distance I am likely to utilize a laser? My answer to that is: Laser's are predominantly a night time/ low light conditions application - so to that end, "what is the maximum distance in those conditions, I'm likely able to comfortably ID my target and fire? which is to say, how far can my illumination system reach, with any degree of confidence?" And my answer to that, nominally, is on the order of 100 yards at most. Most of my units are light/laser combo's and are not expensive. Which, in 2024 have actually gotten quite impressive, but even with that, 100 yards is pretty far for a weapon mounted light to illuminate something, and pretty darned far for a night engagement. (or that's my thought?) I have thermal that I'm going to run for serious night engagements; with lights and lasers being secondary usage and "fun usage". So here's my thought, recognizing @Marksman14 's note that basically - the offset is going to be there, deal with it and work with it... but my own desire to be as close to mark as I can, I think what I'm going to do is along the lines of target a 2" offset at 100 yards, in the opposite direction. So that it will cross somewhere in between. Which nominally will be something like a 50-60 yard or so zero (it will vary). Which means at CQB, it's going to be 2" offset on the closer targets. And to the point - just deal with it. For most actual shots, 2" offset at 10 yards, isn't actually that big of a deal - and if I actually know my gun and run it, I'll know that and account for it the few times it is. When I get a chance, I'll take some measurements and run some calculator tables to see what that will translate to on target. Curious if others have thoughts, as well as what kind of zero distance additional others use for their rifle-mounted-lasers. |
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[#5]
Converge the laser on the reticle at the furthest possible distance. Done.
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[#6]
My two 300 blks with lasers are zeroed at 50 yards, same as the dot.
My .22LR is zeroed at 25 yards, same as the dot. All of my lasers are at 12:00, which avoids the offset issue, and of course, these are "shorter" range weapons. If I were going to use it on a long gun, it would probably be parallel with the optic, especially if the laser isn't at 12:00.....or beyond maximum shooting distance. Think of it like this. If your laser is at 3:00, and you zero it at 200 yards. Given the drop of the bullet, you will have a "usable" target area for well past 300 yards, which is further than one would shoot with a laser anyway. But from 0 yards to 200 yards your laser will always be to the right of impact (how high or low depends on the zero, and bullet type, offset mount, ect). Beyond 200 the laser will be to the left of impact, and with bullet drop, your height offset won't be that bad for awhile. One thing I will add is that you might want a quad rail on a long gun. I'm right handed, and I can tell when I'm putting rightward pressure on my upper because my laser will be slightly to the right of my red dot. It reminds be to apply neutral pressure with my off hand (pull straight back with my off hand), and my laser re-aligns with my optic. On my shorties, it isn't bad, but I could see a lot of flex on a longer rail, especially when shooting further out. |
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[#8]
Quoted: Thank you for the replies. Neither were the direction I was going, and something I've actually thought about for a few days. My initial focus was to get a perfect zero at the most "pragmatic" practical and common distance, and try to figure out what that is. But the first reply was pretty well thought out, and got me thinking that may not be the way to go here... The thought of "just run the offset" is an interesting one. I was trying to focus on zeroing it for a best-distance, recognizing that a laser tends to be shorter range. But the problem with that, is if the system has any meaningful barrel offset (and most do), you're still going to get way off at any other distance. Offset impacts at shorter distance are inescapable regardless of whatever distance I chose. And if I choose a really short distance like 7 yards, the farther distance offsets are still going to get insane to the point of non-usable. After a re-pondering, I think what I might do is start with the question: what is the maximum distance I am likely to utilize a laser? My answer to that is: Laser's are predominantly a night time/ low light conditions application - so to that end, "what is the maximum distance in those conditions, I'm likely able to comfortably ID my target and fire? which is to say, how far can my illumination system reach, with any degree of confidence?" And my answer to that, nominally, is on the order of 100 yards at most. Most of my units are light/laser combo's and are not expensive. Which, in 2024 have actually gotten quite impressive, but even with that, 100 yards is pretty far for a weapon mounted light to illuminate something, and pretty darned far for a night engagement. (or that's my thought?) I have thermal that I'm going to run for serious night engagements; with lights and lasers being secondary usage and "fun usage". So here's my thought, recognizing @Marksman14 's note that basically - the offset is going to be there, deal with it and work with it... but my own desire to be as close to mark as I can, I think what I'm going to do is along the lines of target a 2" offset at 100 yards, in the opposite direction. So that it will cross somewhere in between. Which nominally will be something like a 50-60 yard or so zero (it will vary). Which means at CQB, it's going to be 2" offset on the closer targets. And to the point - just deal with it. For most actual shots, 2" offset at 10 yards, isn't actually that big of a deal - and if I actually know my gun and run it, I'll know that and account for it the few times it is. When I get a chance, I'll take some measurements and run some calculator tables to see what that will translate to on target. Curious if others have thoughts, as well as what kind of zero distance additional others use for their rifle-mounted-lasers. View Quote The adjustments on most lasers are so coarse that if you're worried about an inch or so at 100 yards, you've likely selected the wrong tool. These things are not for precision. You're going to be limited by a ton of factors at distance. Eyesight and ambient light being two of them. In short, you're way overthinking the offset issue. Setting it to converge as far as you can see, or parallel (IE *just* visibly off from your optic in the directions of the mechanical offset) is absolutely good enough for a laser. |
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[#9]
Quoted: The adjustments on most lasers are so coarse that if you're worried about an inch or so at 100 yards, you've likely selected the wrong tool. These things are not for precision. You're going to be limited by a ton of factors at distance. Eyesight and ambient light being two of them. In short, you're way overthinking the offset issue. Setting it to converge as far as you can see, or parallel (IE *just* visibly off from your optic in the directions of the mechanical offset) is absolutely good enough for a laser. View Quote But that's what I do! Though kidding aside, you're absolutely right on all counts. |
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[#10]
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[#11]
Quoted: The adjustments on most lasers are so coarse that if you're worried about an inch or so at 100 yards, you've likely selected the wrong tool. These things are not for precision. You're going to be limited by a ton of factors at distance. Eyesight and ambient light being two of them. In short, you're way overthinking the offset issue. Setting it to converge as far as you can see, or parallel (IE *just* visibly off from your optic in the directions of the mechanical offset) is absolutely good enough for a laser. View Quote I agree with all of this, but I do have one caveat. At night, (especially when humid), I can see my (green) lasers on a structure about 600 yards away across an open field. Actually, when looking through my 3x, it is basically a green line from the end of my gun to the structure as I can see the entire beam. It is something I would probably never do, but I do wonder what it looks like from the other side? |
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[#13]
Either parallel, just make sure you know your correct off-sets or at long distance ~ 500m line up your optic x-hairs/dot and IR laser.
Its useful to know your MPBR for your target and ammunition. 4 inch centre mass - 2,800 FPS, 556 69 grain, 0.300 BC, near zero 42 yds, far zero 208 yds MPBR 239 yds - you'll be 1.77" high at 100 yds. 8 inch centre mass - 2,800 FPS, 556 69 grain, 0.300 BC, near zero 32 yds, far zero 260 yds MPBR 303 yds - you'll be 3.20" high at 100 yds. (for optic ~ 2" above bore). 36 yds is an excellent option for 556. For the 36 yard zero, your hold at 500 yards will be 8.23 MOA or in modern 2.4 MILs (drop is 8.23 x 5 = ~ 41 inches + scope ~ 43). Personally, I prefer a parallel zero as you always know where you are. A very common mistake is to do a 25 yds zero for a 300 yds zero equivalent and converge the laser at the 25 yds POI. Very, very common mistake. |
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[#14]
Windage- parallel as much as possible
Elevation- zeroed for whatever distance preferred round is zeroed |
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[#15]
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[#16]
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[#18]
Constant offset and converge at long range is the same thing IMO. At least you won't be able to tell a difference. If your laser works to 200 yards, converge at 100. You will have the same horizontal offset at 200 yards you had at CQB distances... so little you don't care. I can't think of a time I would prefer to use a visible laser over an optic at over 200 yards.
Pinpoint accuracy at CQB distances with a laser is just not a thing you need. You have a laser for speed and weird/awkward shooting scenarios where your precision is imperfect and speed matters most. You should never have to think about hold offs... if you did you would just use your real sights. Trying to get pinpoint accuracy leads to the dark side of 5-25 yards zeros and then trying to shoot at 25-100 yards while doing the natural thing of "not thinking" when using a laser as intended. |
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[#19]
Quoted: Constant offset and converge at long range is the same thing IMO. At least you won't be able to tell a difference. If your laser works to 200 yards, converge at 100. You will have the same horizontal offset at 200 yards you had at CQB distances... so little you don't care. I can't think of a time I would prefer to use a visible laser over an optic at over 200 yards. Pinpoint accuracy at CQB distances with a laser is just not a thing you need. You have a laser for speed and weird/awkward shooting scenarios where your precision is imperfect and speed matters most. You should never have to think about hold offs... if you did you would just use your real sights. Trying to get pinpoint accuracy leads to the dark side of 5-25 yards zeros and then trying to shoot at 25-100 yards while doing the natural thing of "not thinking" when using a laser as intended. View Quote |
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[#20]
Here is my rifle with VIS/IR laser. The ACOG is naturally zeroed at 100 yds, but the laser is zeroed at 25 yds. The laser is intended for close range/indoors 99% of the time in IR mode with night vision. The visible mode was mainly for daytime sight-in.
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[#21]
You already deal with offset for optics and irons. Laser offset shouldn’t be a problem. I like parallel just to keep it consistent. Let’s be real, we aren’t using a laser for precision shots anyway. As long as you are within maximum point blank range, just line it up and shoot.
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[#23]
Since general weapon setup has entered the discussion, I’ll add that “optimal” includes the ability to momentarily activate your white light and IR laser without shifting your support hand grip much, and your IR illuminator and whitelight not being shadowed much by the things forward of it.
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