Please excuse my ignorance.  My military time was aboard ship several decades ago, not kicking in doors.

The use case is home defense, most likely indoors.  A light is needed for illumination and target identification, of course.  I'm thinking right now that the fastest sighting method for this case is a visible laser located as close to the bore centerline as possible, with a red dot as a secondary sight and for the longer ranges of outdoor problems.  First, is my logic sound?  And second, there will be two light sources and two on-off switches so it would be good to have them co-located.  Hence, the combo question.  The only light + visible laser combination I've found so far is the Crimson Trace CMR-301.  Good answer, or are there better ones out there?

A visible laser is useless if you are using proper sighting techniques with both pistols and rifles, especially with red dots. Only reason to have a visible laser is if it is slaved to an ir laser so you can zero it during the day.

Or if my adraniline is thru the roof (most likely scenario even after good training 'cause I don't do this every day), or if I am wounded and having trouble using both hands, or if I need to make a shot from a non-standard position, or ......

https://www.olightstore.com/baldr-pro-r
Say what you want about Olight but I have this along with their pressure pad setup and it is great. Olight has stepped up their game and offers great products for the money. This gets great reviews. Research for yourself.

No, even in those situations a visible laser is useless. I have been doing this for a very long time training both military personnel around the world as well as le and civilians.  Visible lasers were pretty much movie props and very limited real usage in the 80s before proper techniques were taught. Hell proper point shooting is more effective then searching for a laser that is hard to find in a stressful situation.

You stated you didnt have much experience, then when someone with a hell of a lot of real world experience on two ranges gave you info, you automatically dismissed it because it wasnt what you wanted to hear.

The Crimson Trace unit is solid. I have one on my “Recce” style rifle. Not sure how it would hold up in a war zone, but we aren’t warriors overseas - for HD and range use I have no issue with it. Well priced too around $250.

Visible laser is certainly not useless, especially for an HD situation pulling the rifle up quick, shooting around a corner, etc… it won’t replace a red dot but I have it on a setup with a magnified optic so it’s nice to have an option that doesn’t require getting the gun fully shouldered or dropping the magnification down for close range use in the dark.

With respect, that was not the tone of the voice in my head when I replied to you.  I designed and built ships for a living.  I understand the lesser level of my own knowledge in the tactical world, and am trying to pull myself up to a reasonable level of competence in both my abilities and my hardware.  Not knowing your experience, I was trying to bring up possible mitigating circumstances that could have been valid and thus change the balance point of the tactical situation.  In your experience, which model of light (or at least which attributes) should I be looking for?

Thanks,
Alan

Just get a Surefire, Modlite, or streamlite and use a red dot to aim.  If you are worried about stress, just shoot a USPSA match or something similar.  It will prove that you suck at this kind of thing and it will motivate you to practice, which in turn reduces the stress of gun handling

I use the Streamlight combos.
I have a couple of TLR-RM2's with the green lasers.  I really like them.

Single best use I've found is when switching hands for shooting (like around a corner).   Maybe the pros can do it well, but a novice like me SUCKS as transitioning from right hand to left hand.  I usually end up trying to look through my dot with my right eye instead of my left eye, so then I close my right eye and realize that my head is in the wrong position, yada, yada, yada.   Far, far, far easier shooting my AR left handed with the laser.

My laser and dot are both zeroed at 50 yards.

I will add, mine are on 300blk AR pistols with Tailhook braces (or a cheap laser I love on 22LR AR).   I don't have them on rifles.

The Streamlight TLR-RM2s are a solid option with the green laser.


And anyone who says vis lasers don’t have a place have never taken a night vision class. There’s a time and place for everything, including a vis laser.

Get Surefire Scout and an Aimpoint T2.  (~$1300)

If you are on a budget get a Streamlight HL-X and a Sig Romeo 5. (~$250)

Forget about the vis laser.

More training is part of my plan.  And I will probably not hit the right sight/light/laser(?) combo until after some of that, especially after a night class.  I'm trying to get to a reasonable starting point for that.  I don't want to end up with as many lights as I have pistol holsters. :-O

The two weapons in need of night capability are an AR9 SBR (Mk1 conclusion/decision) and .300BO pistol (Mk 1 Mod 1 conclusion/decision).  I identify with all you've said about transitioning.  In my case, being left-handed, I always need to remember that when everyone else says "right", I have to think "left".  Thanks for the Streamlight pointer.

Odin GL.

Here

My local club put on a night shoot for the first time in 5+ years (shooting is generally limited to hunting hours) and everyone who came was an experienced USPSA competitive shooter.  I was very surprised how many showed up with light/laser combos, and also how many people shot well with them.  I was also very surprised how running and gunning at night seemed to dramatically increase the malfunction and failure rate that we normally see.  This video is of our squad with a couple shooters from other squads mixed in.



The moral of the story?  Do whatever you want, but practice with your equipment.

You're making the case for just buying a light.
Reason being a light is a must but a laser is an "it depends" if you find after trying you still want a laser, the light you have is still useful. If you decide you don't want a laser, you still have a laser and the money is spent.

No. Viz lasers are ghey

Sling, WML, RDS

Regardless of whether it's the "right" way to do things, here are some units you may be interested in. I have used / fielded each of these:

- CRIMSON TRACE CMR-301: Sturdy unit, very affordable and widely available used for very cheap. The light has a TON of "spill" and isn't very bright... which I think would actually be ideal for your stated use-case scenario
- HOLOSUN 321 SERIES: both the "LE" and the "LS" versions also have an IR laser, are widely available used for good prices
- SUREFIRE HLX SERIES: WML with a laser built right into the light body. A better unit than it gets credit for, but may be too bright for your use.

Hope this helps!

Op, I won’t argue the merits of a visible laser on an AR/PCC, but I’ve enjoyed my Veridian HS1 Hand Stop with built in laser.  I have it mounted on my 9mm SBR.  It’s very ergonomic, intuitive, and reliable.  
https://viridianweapontech.com/products/lasers-lights/hs1/hs1-with-green-laser

I would also suggest, though I have no first hand experience with, https://www.streamlight.com/products/detail/protac-rail-mount-hl-x-laser

Good luck with your hunt.  Sometimes you just need to try things yourself.

tag.
been looking for something for my kp9 ghetto build

You know there are some very experienced combat dudes in here. And some recommendations from people who do a lot of shooting.

I’m no door kicker but I have semi practical take on lasers. I would never put one on a pistol as preference but you know where a laser has real merits? Scaring people. For whatever reason when you draw a laser down on someone at a distance, they lock up quickly. And that’s something I have done a number of times.

As a practical shooting device, it really doesn’t make sense. As a replacement for a warning shot, it does VERY well.

Lasers can be helpful when shooting in unorthodox shooting positions or with nightvision if that comes later. Yes they can help shooting weak hand. They def are intimidating and can help let someone know back up I have you dialed in to help defuse a tense situation.im sure there are many pros and cons to both. My advice if you want one get it and try it out if it works for you enjoy.

The main downside to a laser it burns more power , is more complicated , more expensive and can be more bulky. If you can use a dot to shoot passively that’s the way to go tho, I view the laser as more of a backup aiming device.

I wouldn't buy it personally, but Streamlight is probably your best option. And get green over red if you can.

For 99% of shooters I do NOT reccomend switching shoulders on rifles. Just lean a little more and be quick. This includes patrol officers.

When you are so good strong side that you are really are not improving, have the time and ammo (money) to make your weak side transition super fast and flawless and shoot 99% as well from the weak side, and/or you are part of a professional team that clears structures multiple times a week, transitioning MIGHT make sense for you.

Lasers also have other uses.

Zero verification: if optic and laser are zeroed to the same distance, its easy to verify zero after travel or weapon impact, as its highly unlikely both awre knocked out of alignment equally.

Aid in zeroing multi-optic systems: You can zero your main optic, then zero the laser to that, then zero your BUIS or MRDS backup to the laser.

Signaling: When hunting packs of animals, or designating other targets, lasers can be helpful.

That is probably a good idea.  Trying to transition from right to left (I'm right handed) is a disaster for me.  After always shooting with two eyes open, I assume the secret is to NOT shoot with two eyes open when shooting weakside because trying to use a non dominate eye with a dot while the dominate eye is still open is a hot mess, and probably a good way to get shot in the forehead while fumbling around.  
---------

Another posted just mentioned zeroing.  That is a big plus as well.   Both my optic and laser are zeroed at 50 yards on my AR pistols.  It makes checking a zero easier, especially after an optic swap (or removing the rail).

There are a few other pluses as well.  
Shooting from the hip with either hand...such as in a case of being injured or carrying something.
The non lethal "threat" that is available.

But I think the key is that a laser does NOT replace the primary optic.  I can turn my laser off, never use it, and nothing really changes about my firearm.  

For me and my set-up, it is a secondary site because I run my light at 12:00 on shortie 300blks. Thus I don't have room for BUIS.   I combine that with the Romeo 4T and 4S  I'm running, so that if a battery does die then during daytime, the optics works via solar power, and in darkness, I have a green vis lasers.

The first time I swapped my light only for a laser/light combo I tried a red laser.  I did not like that at all, the $25 cheap Amazon rechargeable green laser I run on my .22 outperformed it by a wide margin.  

In the pic, you can see the different between the laser and non laser Streamlights.  Also below is the small Amazon laser I purchased first to see if I would like lasers.  On a .22 with a Tailhook brace, it is beyond fun.  You get to pretend you are in Terminator, or maybe Robocop.




In the center of this pic is a small white rectangle that you can barely see.  It is a target exactly 50 yards (using a laser ranger finder) from where I am standing, it is probably 15 yards behind the fire pit (it is out in a field).  There is a building in the background about 675 yards away.  With the green lasers at night, you can easily see the laser on the building.     (I do wonder if people can see the laser back to me?) They are BRIGHT.    When looking through the 3X, it is a thick green line right to the side of building.  



Same shot at night.  You can see the red laser (can't remember if that is the bore laser or the original red Streamlight) on the target when I was doing some zeroing.   Without the light, you could not see anything at all in the field.  






.22 with Vis laser at 12:00



I have a couple of the green Streamlight light/laser combos mated with Romeo 4's (with Plex reticles) and Vortex Micro 3X's on shortie 300's.