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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/16/2024 8:19:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 630skirmish]
I asked a local gunsmith (S & S Precision) to cut the barrel down to 14.5 and then install this griffin flash hider which measures 2.24" He stuck a cleaning rod down and showed me the measurement and it came out to just a smidge over 16 inches. He didn't mark with a pencil just used his fingernail to hold the spot it but it looked like over 16.
The issue is the BCM kmr13 rail goes just a smidge over the flash hider and in all the pics I've seen of BCM 14.5 with KMR 13 handguard there is plenty of gap between the end of the rail and the flash hider. I just can't tell if he measured wrong or BCM has a different way of measuring their barrel? People seemed to have this issue with the KMR or MCMR 13-inch rails when they cut their barrels down to 13.7 or 13.9 so how am I having this issue with a 14.5 inch barrel? If you look online any 14.5-inch bcm with 13 inch rail does not go over the flash hider You can check the website here: https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-bfh-14-5-mid-length-upper-receiver-group-w-kmr-alpha-13-handguard/ So either he's off by about an inch or did am I missing something? Imgur link to pics of the barrel: https://imgur.com/a/cgu2zRn EDIT: I bought a stick to measure and it looks like it’s a good amount under 16 inches over all, as I suspected. What should I do? Here are the pics of the new measurement. He did not measure properly and never took the barrel out to be sure, he just lopped a piece of the front and tried to convince me that you measure from the barrel not bolt face when I asked him over text. |
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Posted: 3/16/2024 8:23:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: NorthPolar]
[#1]
Take a dowel or cleaning rod and mark it at 16.1" (just to be safe) and put it down the barrel with a BCG in the upper. If the marking does not clear the end of your muzzle device (and it's properly attached) you're in trouble. If it does, you're golden.
Edit: flipped what I meant, typed it backward. |
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Posted: 3/16/2024 8:29:15 PM EDT
[#2]
I can guess for you, but you can actually measure it. Which one seems more productive?
Just giving you a hard time. Honestly though, the only way you'll know is to check it yourself. |
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Posted: 3/16/2024 8:30:43 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 3/16/2024 8:37:37 PM EDT
[#4]
Measure as mentioned above with your BCG closed. Don’t put any faith in where your handguard sets in relation to the end your muzzle device. Why? Because one company’s 13” handguard might measure 13” from the face of the receiver’s rail and another’s might measure from the face of the bolt and yet another’s might be called a 13” but actually measure 13.25 or even 13.5 inches.
So, close your bolt, stick a rod down your barrel and mark it at the end of the welded on muzzle device, remove and measure it. THAT is the length of your barrel. Space from the end of the handguard to the end of the MD means nothing. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 3/16/2024 8:55:42 PM EDT
[#5]
I was bored thought I would help you out. 14.5 pinned 16 OAL with a 10" MCMR rail. No way a 13 is going over the flash hider, I think it would be about a 1/2 inch short or so. Good luck...
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Posted: 3/16/2024 9:07:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: slappomatt]
[#6]
My 14.5" with MCMR13 has about 1" of barrel past the rail without a muzzle device. yeah yours looks questionable. but as posted above its easy to measure. make sure the bolt is forward and stick a cleaning rod down the barrel. tape it off at the tip of the FH and measure the rod.
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Posted: 3/16/2024 9:14:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: funnelcake]
[#7]
The first sentence in what @TGWLDR posted... Seriously - measure it; if that cat can't do super-rudimentary math he has ZERO business doing anything around firearms (or a lot of other stuff). At a minimum if he chopped your barrel too short it needs to be replaced. Disgraceful at minimum & not legal at YOUR peril!!
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Posted: 3/16/2024 9:37:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Molon]
[#8]
Originally Posted By 630skirmish: People seemed to have this issue with the KMR or MCMR 13-inch rails when they cut their barrels down to 13.7 or 13.9 so how am I having this issue with a 14.5 inch barrel? If you look online any 14.5-inch bcm with 13 inch rail does not go over the flash hider The BCM "13 inch" handguards aren't really 13"; they're longer. But there still shouldn't be any overlapping of the flash hider on a 14.5" barrel.  ... |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/16/2024 10:19:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Based on google pics, that MD looks like it hangs a little over the barrel shoulder. Between that and the way it was chopped, it could possibly be at 16”. Would definitely recommend measuring it to be 100% sure.
Also, if it is legit you might still have issues with suppressor attachment if the rail goes past the MD taper. Which means you might have to shave the rail just like people do with the 13.7/ 9 builds. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 9:28:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dalle0001]
[#10]
It sounds like what he did was cut it down to 13.9 and installed the fh to give it an overall length of 16”. I do believe it is at 16 but I agree you can easily measure with a marker and a cleaning rod. The atf would measure from the bolts face to the end of the barrel. I believe your barrel may be just shy of 16 inches and personally I would ask if he could pay for a new barrel. Also when you order from bcm I recall they had an option to p&w a fh to their 14.5 barrels for an extra 50 bucks. Do they still do that?
Overall it sounds like the gunsmith didn’t quite listened to what you asked for. |
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Posted: 3/17/2024 10:14:14 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: It sounds like what he did was cut it down to 13.9 and installed the fh to give it an overall length of 16”. I do believe it is at 16..... I believe your barrel may be just shy of 16 inches . What 
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 10:57:43 AM EDT
[#12]
Ya... 14.5 and 2.24 make 16.74. Now 13.9+2.24 makes 16.14 - which sounds more like your smidge over 16. Definitely measure it yourself. I've also have a 14.5 with an MCMR-13 and there's no issue at all with the flash hider. So I agree with the above that it sounds like he cut it shorter than 14.5. BCM states the KMR13 measured to the flair is 13.4.
My MCMR13 which also measures to 13.4 on my 14.5 barrel:  
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 11:37:08 AM EDT
[#13]
i just ordered a cleaning rod which will be here tomorrow to measure. He showed me it measuring a smidge above 16" but he also marked it with his thumb instead of a marker so who knows if that was accurate. From external measuring with that pink measuring tape the barrel looks to be under 14.5 accounting for half inch of threading.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 11:40:30 AM EDT
[#14]
yeah with my pink tape measurement accounting for the half inch threads it looks like the barrel is no more then 14 and a quarter. There is no way that should sit just inside of the handguard if it was true 14.5". It still may be over 16 inches though but seems he might not have listened to me.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 11:40:41 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 630skirmish: i just ordered a cleaning rod which will be here tomorrow to measure. He showed me it measuring a smidge above 16" but he also marked it with his thumb instead of a marker so who knows if that was accurate. From external measuring with that pink measuring tape the barrel looks to be under 14.5 accounting for half inch of threading. You don't need a cleaning rod to measure. Just go over to Home Depot and get a 3/16 dowel rod. That's all that I use for measuring. |
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Posted: 3/17/2024 12:44:01 PM EDT
[#16]
You need to measure your barrel, dude.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 12:57:11 PM EDT
[#17]
I just bought a stick to measure and it looks like its under 16 inches over all, as I suspected. What should I do? Image uploaded to imgur, you can see the mark I made against the ruler. The bolt was closed so I measured correctly.
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 1:10:52 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 630skirmish: I just bought a stick to measure and it looks like its under 16 inches over all, as I suspected. What should I do? Image uploaded to imgur, you can see the mark I made against the ruler. The bolt was closed so I measured correctly. Sounds like the "gunsmith" owes you since he cut it too short. Maybe a spacer like Adco sells will bump it out enough., but You'll have to drill out the pin and welded part to remove the flash hider, but that is the gunsmith's problem to fix |
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Posted: 3/17/2024 1:28:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGWLDR]
[#19]
You're short, your smith dicked that up.
 Attached FileR&R the P&W and add a spacer is one option as suggested above. The other is...your smith owes you a new barrel. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 2:18:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dalle0001]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: What Sorry mistyped. After looking at it I see plus he shown the measurement seems to be way under. I think that gunsmith owes you big at least a 14.5 barrel. For sure a refund on the P&W and chop job. I would go as far as taking him to a small claims court and explain the whole reason behind a p&w is to make a 14.5 legal 16" overall and bring the ATF law, plus the thing above about how they test it, and bring your receipt with the deal and show how the barrel is way less than 16". |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 3:45:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Off topic a little but @op your experience with this gun smith is the whole reason I do my own p&w now. The last barrel was a 300 bucks barrel that got toasted because the gunsmith hammered the pin so hard it made a dent into the bore. He then used some sort of iron rod to smooth it out which caused chips in the bore near the throat. I had to toss it and then bought a welding machine off Amazon and my last p&w attempt was pretty good.
Really all you need to do is drill a tiny hole, punch in a pin, then weld over it. So easy I even did it. Anyway good luck with your current issue. Also remember bcm p&w your chosen fh on their site. I’m not 100% sure if they do it for all but check that out too. |
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Posted: 3/17/2024 4:01:44 PM EDT
[#22]
I bet the smith either
1) messed up on his calculation, trying to account for the thread overlap or forgetting to account for it, or 2) measured right, put tape on the "keep" side of the line to mark the spot, and then cut the wrong side of the tape. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 4:21:52 PM EDT
[#23]
He clearly wasnt measuring based on how the ATF measures barrel length.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 4:31:02 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dalle0001: Off topic a little but @op your experience with this gun smith is the whole reason I do my own p&w now. The last barrel was a 300 bucks barrel that got toasted because the gunsmith hammered the pin so hard it made a dent into the bore. He then used some sort of iron rod to smooth it out which caused chips in the bore near the throat. I had to toss it and then bought a welding machine off Amazon and my last p&w attempt was pretty good. Really all you need to do is drill a tiny hole, punch in a pin, then weld over it. So easy I even did it. Anyway good luck with your current issue. Also remember bcm p&w your chosen fh on their site. I’m not 100% sure if they do it for all but check that out too. Im starting to get the impression a lot of these guns smiths are sub par at best. They don't take their time and most have average or poor reviews on google if any reviews at all. Unfourtunetly this guy was recommended to me in a forum post sometime back. |
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Posted: 3/17/2024 4:41:58 PM EDT
[#25]
I went to drop off an x95 bullpup to get chopped and p/w at a local gunsmith that i read some good reviews about locally. It's a more involved job than an ar barrel. And higher risk if you screw it up.
First red flag was when i pulled up to his house as the store address. Then as we were talking about the job, he didn't actually seem to know what he was talking about. I asked him about welding and he said it's not necessary. Just drilling and installing a blind pin is enough for the ATF, but if i insisted, he could weld over it. Suddenly the next few months flashed before my eyes, full of frustration and a screwed up barrel with no satisfactory resolution and regret for not having walked away when i had the chance. So i said thanks anyway and took my guns and left. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 4:48:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dalle0001]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 630skirmish: Im starting to get the impression a lot of these guns smiths are sub par at best. They don't take their time and most have average or poor reviews on google if any reviews at all. Unfourtunetly this guy was recommended to me in a forum post sometime back. As far as I understand when you declare yourself a "gunsmith" you're essentially telling the ATF that you're a Type 1 dealer which is the same class as a normal dealer you see at an FFL site. As far as I know, there aren't any "official" license to become a gunsmith, even a generalized license. So getting one from the ATF really means nothing at all in terms of your ability as a gunsmith other than that you are able to obtain a type 1 dealer license. I do believe certain companies have their own process like Colt, and Glock tend to have "schools" where they teach you things. Also some higher end gun manufacturers like 1911s tend to have shops where you can spend a week or two to get a "license." But there's no way to really verify these licenses. I guess it's kind of like cars. You go into a dealer, you can verify that they have licenses and so fort but if you go to an off hand shop, no real way to know what their certification or background are and even if they told you something, there's no way to know. With that said, I think most of these gun smiths are purely word of mouth. Arfcom has their list of "gunsmiths" that seem to be good like ADCO. They seem to be solid and my advice if you need a barrel chop and p&w, they're probably a pretty good source. You can probably go into their industry forum and show your picture and maybe they can figure out a way to salvage what you have. You can go that route or you can try to get a new 14.5 barrel from the gunsmith who ruined your barrel. Removing the existing p&w, assuming he did it with a pin and welded over it, is pretty easy to remove. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/17/2024 4:53:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Griffin makes that same MD for 13.7 barrels: https://www.griffinarmament.com/taper-mount-flash-suppressor-2-75-5-56mm-1-2x28/
That “should” get you back over 16”. I’d contact the gunsmith and nicely explain your findings and go from there. You could also do the KAC .25” spacer from ADCO, but that would be cutting it close. |
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Posted: 3/17/2024 4:56:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 630skirmish: Im starting to get the impression a lot of these guns smiths are sub par at best. They don't take their time and most have average or poor reviews on google if any reviews at all. Unfourtunetly this guy was recommended to me in a forum post sometime back. Naming the smith here may save somebody else the trouble in the future. |
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Posted: 3/17/2024 4:59:38 PM EDT
[#29]
I wouldnt mess with trying to get your local guy to do anything. You CAN and he certainly owes it to you, but there's a good chance the hastle wouldn't be worth it. I'd send your picture of the measured length to JT or ADCO and ask them if they think they can make it work with a spacer of longer flash hider. Obviously, never go to this "gunsmith" again.
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Posted: 3/17/2024 8:59:21 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Stowe: I wouldnt mess with trying to get your local guy to do anything. You CAN and he certainly owes it to you, but there's a good chance the hastle wouldn't be worth it. I'd send your picture of the measured length to JT or ADCO and ask them if they think they can make it work with a spacer of longer flash hider. Obviously, never go to this "gunsmith" again. ^this - 15-13/16" is NOT 16" WTF...friggin bullshit. I would make an attempt at getting him to pop for a new barrel (I doubt it but maybe worth a phone call), but would NOT take the rifle back to him (or anything else...). |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:31:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TigerForce]
[#31]
I’ll just add, OP, maybe measure again, to make sure the dowel/rod is inserted into the barrel so that the inserted end contacts the bolt face. A dowel can be stopped short if it rests against the ejector pin, which protrudes a little from one side of the bolt face, and can slightly shorten the measurement.
ETA: the ejector pin makes about 1/8-inch difference. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 3/18/2024 3:39:25 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -Shaggs-: You don't need a cleaning rod to measure. Just go over to Home Depot and get a 3/16 dowel rod. That's all that I use for measuring. This and a pen or pencil is all you need. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 10:11:43 AM EDT
[#33]
I'd ask for my money back. Then find a longer MD that will work with the barrel you have left, and send it to John Thomas at Retro Arms Works to fix it.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/18/2024 11:49:43 AM EDT
[#34]
What I texted the gun smith:
So I went and bought a stick to measure it, and it seems to come up shorter than 16 inches. I did this with the bolt closed as per the way you're supposed to measure for the regulations. Based on that the barrel length is closer to 13.9 or 14 inches but not 14.5. This is what the gun smith says: "You are not measuring it right, It goes from the back of the barrel to the front you are more than welcome to bring it back to the shop and I can fully disassemble it and we can measure it exactly if that's what you would like" |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 11:52:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TGWLDR]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 630skirmish: What I texted the gun smith: So I went and bought a stick to measure it, and it seems to come up shorter than 16 inches. I  Attached Filedid this with the bolt closed as per the way you're supposed to measure for the regulations. Based on that the barrel length is closer to 13.9 or 14 inches but not 14.5. This is what the gun smith says: "You are not measuring it right, It goes from the back of the barrel to the front you are more than welcome to bring it back to the shop and I can fully disassemble it and we can measure it exactly if that's what you would like" SHOW HIM THIS PDF IF YOU GO BACK THERE Reference:  Attached File |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/18/2024 12:04:10 PM EDT
[#36]
I would bring your dowel and show the measurement. It’s so close in measurement that I think he’ll do the finger guess again rather than show actual measurements. It’s from the bolts face to the end of the barrel per the atf.
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Posted: 3/18/2024 7:39:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Big-Bore]
[#37]
Do NOT forget to take into account the ejector and extractor. If the rod you are using is resting against the ejector or extractor you are going to come up short of the actual measurement. IMO remove the extractor and ejector and take along a Sharpie and your rod, as well as the ATFE guidelines. That way there will be no wiggle room for crawfishing.
The above is not hypothetical. This actually happened to me on a large bore AR I was dicking around with. I had it made to be 16.25 inches sans MD, but later had it cut back to be 16 with P&W muzzle device. When I got it back and dropped a ⅜ brass rod down the barrel, it measured a hair under 16 inches with the MD on it but not yet P&Wed. I was not happy, but something did not feel right when I let the rod bottom out on the bolt face. Out of hoping against hope, I pulled the ejector and extractor and suddenly it measured a hair over 16 inches. Good enough. For a little extra length I put in a small shim, had it P&Wed and at 16.125, I was golden. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 7:45:49 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 630skirmish: What I texted the gun smith: So I went and bought a stick to measure it, and it seems to come up shorter than 16 inches. I did this with the bolt closed as per the way you're supposed to measure for the regulations. Based on that the barrel length is closer to 13.9 or 14 inches but not 14.5. This is what the gun smith says: "You are not measuring it right, It goes from the back of the barrel to the front you are more than welcome to bring it back to the shop and I can fully disassemble it and we can measure it exactly if that's what you would like" He has already proven himself to be an idiot. He owes you a barrel or $200 for a stamp. |
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Posted: 3/18/2024 8:26:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Luny421]
[#39]
I like to have my ducks in a row before I call people out. Disassemble the bolt as if you were checking headspace (remove extractor and ejector) then measure again. If it’s still <16” he owes you a barrel or $200 for a tax stamp.
ETA I use Precision Armament Accu-washers on all of my P&Ws, they provide a little extra length, much better than shims |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 11:20:31 AM EDT
[#40]
He doesnt seem to want to send me money for a new barrel or anything he wants to do the work again. I don't want to use him again at this point because its clear he takes short cuts and makes assumptions about barrel lengths. He didn't even remove the barrel to measure in the first place just lopped off an inch and a half, supposedly.
I would rather he just pay for a new barrel and we part ways but he wants me to waste more time driving an hour to get to him just to what, check that he messed up and hold my rifle in purgatory even longer. |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 12:44:38 PM EDT
[#41]
It might be necessary to drive there to prove to him that he screwed up, which is prerequisite to him doing anything to make the situation right.
Once that's established, I think it's pretty easy to say that there isn't a satisfactory way for him to "do the work again". It's like trying to fix a 2x4 that you cut too short... ship has sailed. That's why you measure twice and cut once. Especially when "go to prison" is the stakes for going to short. He likely buggered the muzzle device as well, or he will trying to get it off. He should buy you a new barrel and muzzle device and give you a refund for the work to make you whole as you were before you met him and let him screw things up. Or if he insisted on "doing the work again" he'd still need to buy you a new barrel and muzzle device since he chopped the existing barrel too short and will likely have butchered the muzzle device by the time he gets it off (I don't have much faith in his abilities). So buying you new parts is a given either way. The refund so you can just go to someone else to get it done right is the right thing for him to do, but he will likely try really hard to avoid it and you'll probably just have to pay out of pocket to ADCO or RAW to do it again for you, chalking the lost fee up to an expensive lesson. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 3:38:20 PM EDT
[#42]
Don't let him touch your gun again. Show up with the ATF letter describing the measurement procedure in hand.
Tell him to refund your money and price of a new barrel or you'll see him in small claims court or at the least he can explain why he's making illegal NFA weapons to the local ATF branch. I'd bury him in bad reviews online and at the BBB. I haven't met a competent "local gunsmith" in the last 20yrs. The last one I used destroyed a 100yo single shot 22 doing a simple barrel liner job. Indicators you are not dealing with a real gunsmith.... No lathe or small mill/drill press in their shop, a carpenters' claw hammer, a Dremel, wallyworld screwdriver set laying on a crap covered table, no barrel vise bolted to the table and no precision measuring devices or reference manuals. |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 4:02:27 PM EDT
[#43]
Wonder if he's measuring from the barrel extension. Either way, the guy sounds like a hack.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 4:18:08 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 630skirmish: He doesnt seem to want to send me money for a new barrel or anything he wants to do the work again. I don't want to use him again at this point because its clear he takes short cuts and makes assumptions about barrel lengths. He didn't even remove the barrel to measure in the first place just lopped off an inch and a half, supposedly. I would rather he just pay for a new barrel and we part ways but he wants me to waste more time driving an hour to get to him just to what, check that he messed up and hold my rifle in purgatory even longer. Personally I would reach out to ADCO here and ask if they can add a spacer to it. It seems doable given just how short it is. Overall though, I would take the guy to small claims if you spent more than 100 bucks for it. Honestly he messed up pretty good. I would make sure you document the barrel and perhaps if you sent it to ADCO, if they can write some sort of receipt that says they're fixing a undersized barrel length that way you can show to the judge that it is indeed short. |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 4:23:25 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jhon: Wonder if he's measuring from the barrel extension. Either way, the guy sounds like a hack. Sounds like it. On both accounts. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 6:53:37 PM EDT
[#46]
What is his name and where's he at? I hate this desire to protect fraudsters. I see it on gun and knife forums all the time. The guy's an idiot and a fraud, help others by ID'ing him!
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Posted: 3/19/2024 7:39:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jdk1: What is his name and where's he at? I hate this desire to protect fraudsters. I see it on gun and knife forums all the time. The guy's an idiot and a fraud, help others by ID'ing him! Yep |
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Posted: 3/19/2024 9:22:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: slappomatt]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 630skirmish: Im starting to get the impression a lot of these guns smiths are sub par at best. They don't take their time and most have average or poor reviews on google if any reviews at all. Unfourtunetly this guy was recommended to me in a forum post sometime back. ETA cut your losses and just forget this ever happened. barrels arent that expensive. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 3/19/2024 10:37:43 PM EDT
[#49]
I would deal with everything via email or text and save copies just in case something happens. He should admit his mistake, buy you a new barrel, and refund your money, but don't hope to get anything back at all. Gunsmiths are no different from the remaining cross section of society. Shitty. A couple good ones out there, and I've only dealt with one. You might be able to sell the barrel on EE for a few bucks to someone who wants one to cut it down. Good luck
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Posted: 3/20/2024 5:29:39 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jhon: Wonder if he's measuring from the barrel extension. Either way, the guy sounds like a hack. This is my assumption. |
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