Quoted:
6.8 e-landers?  Im pretty excited about the new 6.5 grendel e-landers Bill Alexander got a hold of

Quoted:
Are 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC cases the same size in terms of their circumference? Really?

Quoted:
Please keep the thread on track.

I have tested piles of magazines that users like you have claimed did not work. I have yet to find one that I could replicate the claimed problems, outside of damaged magazines. Infinitegrim sent back two magazines that had a manufacturing defect. I inspected them myself.
Here is a rough video of a test of a customer's magazines. I have many such videos that we use internally to track these things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEQPyp2GvpE&list=UUeuYwtiKymaNh12XTFxspfA

There are a number of ways you can contact me easily. Please do not try to pull this thread off topic again. See this link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_400/240053_Replacement_of_M1_and_M2_E_Lander_Mags_.html

Quoted:
Question #1:  What other sizes of 6.8 mags will be available besides 25 round?

Question #2:  What are the internal dimensional length specs?  
                      Many 6.8 guys load long...as long as 2.300".  Will your mag handle that?

The interior dimensions of OAL 2.316” ± .002 are perfect for reloads.

The same is true for the 6.8 SPC - there has been only a couple manufactures that have offered constantly high-quality magazines for the 6.8.

Quoted:
One of the problems is heat treating. Since the magazines are stamped and then heat treated, the metal warps to some extent, more in one mag than another, and dimensions change as a result. This is an ongoing issue. The E-Lander magazines are made of a high-grade steel to top-of the-line equipment, so the steel is treated prior to forming. This prevents the consistency problems that plague many other 6.8 magazines.

Quoted:
If we told you your magazines would be replaced, then I will personally make sure it gets done. Email me the communication in which we told you that we would replace the mags and it will be taken care of.

On the other hand, here is what happened:

We tested magazines for almost two years prior to importing, that had previously been tested by E-Lander, the IDF, who issues them as standard issue magazines, by independent testing labs, by IWI, who ships them with every Tavor outside the US, by Gilboa, by other manufacturers, and by other foreign militaries.We asked a number of US rifle manufacturers to test these magazines and ALL said they were the most perfectly-made, consistent MIL-SPEC magazines they had ever tested. In EVERY case EVERYONE who tested them could find no fault with the magazines. I tested them in somewhere around a hundred different rifles and machine guns and found NONE that had any issues with these magazines. I have now tested magazines for SCORES of customers who claimed issues with the magazines and found exactly 4 that had a true defect, and all four still functioned in EVERY rifle I tried them in. I have no reason to believe there is any problem with E-Lander magazines.

Soon after we began importing them, and selling them with no complaints from any customers, the Sandy Hook shooting occurred and there was a panicked run on magazines. Our distributors requested hundreds of thousands, and we could have send pallet loads to them and raked in the dough with little work. We could have even spiked the prices. Instead, we told the distributors and dealers that their orders were going to the back of the line and until the panic was over, we would ship only retail orders. We did not raise our prices. This ensured that our magazines would not sell above MSRP - none of our dealers that already had magazines could sell them over MSRP, because we forced the price to stay down. We had to hire extra people, it was tough. I slept only a few hours a night for months. Same with others a Mako.

After some time, a few people complained that the mags were hard to seat in their rifles. We immediately investigated, working with E-Lander and several rifle manufacturers to determine if there was a problem with the magazines. There was not. The E-Lander magazines were consistently dead on the target MIL-SPEC dimensions. The manufacturers explained and demonstrated to us what issues with the construction of rifles can lead to a hard-seating magazine. We interviews customers and determined that about 1% of civilian-market rifles are built in such a way that a true MIL-SPEC magazine will seat hard in them. We could have said, tough, the magazines are MIL-SPEC mags, which is what we clearly advertised them to be. We were, after all, in the middle of a panic with thousands of mags in stock and scrambling to try to get orders out.

Instead, we decided that if we were selling mags to a civilian market, then the mags should be designed for civilian rifles. So we stopped shipping the thousands magazines we had and made one small change that keeps the magazine within MIL-SPEC dimensions, with all dimensions dead on the target dimensions except for one that is moved out, but still within the allowable deviation. This keeps the mags MIL-SPEC, but allows them to seat in the 1% of civilian rifles that seat hard.

Then we told our customers that anyone who had a rifle that the magazines seated hard in could send them back for exchange for the revised magazines. We did this for a couple months, but few took advantage of it (less than 20 customers, total).

Then, the panic died and suddenly everyone wanted their money back. No one cared about the work we did, the extra headaches we went through to get magazines for them at a pre-panic price, the fact that we never raised prices, that we offered to replace magazines that were exactly as advertised with magazines redesigned to work with rifles that were out-of-spec. All people thought about was how much they spent on magazines and they wanted their money back. I spoke with men who cried on the phone with me over the fact that they had mortgaged their homes to buy magazines. Many customers were angry with us because we held the prices down. They had purchased hundreds of magazines with the intent to sell them at inflated prices, but could not. Hundreds of people demanded their money back. Distributors and dealers told us they were experiencing the same thing - when the panic subsided, everyone wanted to return magazines for a refund.

The result was that we got torn apart on this forum over it. Not because the magazines were bad, but because people wanted their money back.

A typical conversation with a customer went like this:
Customer: "I ordered 500 magazines from you a few months ago. I need to return those for a refund."
Me: "Why do you need to return them?"
Customer: "Well, I told my wife I needed to buy them 'cause they were going to be banned. But they didn't get banned so I need to return them."
Me: "We had those magazines made specifically to meet the demand. At this point we can't take returns on magazines for refund. We will replace any defective magazines."
Customer: "I post on a bunch of gun forums. If you don't take them back, I will post on every forum that your magazines are crap!"

People attacked the magazines for several reasons:
- We had several people who flat-out lied about the magazines. When called on it, it turned out they were Magpul fanboys and felt that they were somehow defending Magpul by attacking the reputation of our magazines. They flat told me that they would do whatever they could to keep us from competing with Magpul. These were the ones who started people complaining about the mags.
- We had people who really had an issue with seating the mags - they could be seated, but with a hard slap. From what we can determine, this took place in less that 1% of rifles.
- We had a lot of new or inexperienced AR shooters, who did not know what to expect with AR magazines.
-Some people had substandard parts in their ARs, but did not know how to trouble-shoot, so blamed the magazines.
- One of the biggest problems was new rifles with little or no lube, or the thick factory shipping oil. I helped hundreds of customers who could not get their rifles to function, and assumed it was the magazines, only to have all issues go away when I talked them through lubing their rifles.
- Some people flat-out lied. I have no other explanation for people claiming that no more than 5 rounds could be loaded in a magazine, or the magazine could not be unloaded, or that the edge of the case mouth hung up n the front edge of the magazine (the feed ramps prevent this) or the follower nosedives (the follower is an anti-tilt follower).


As soon as one person claimed a problem, many others parroted it, word for word. I have tested many magazines that could not be loaded with more than 5 rounds, and they loaded up and functioned fine.


We replaced the fully functional M1 and M2 magazines with M3 magazines, no questions asked, for 10 months from the introduction of the M3 magazines. Most people who claimed problems and asked for refunds refused to accept replacement when offered, leading us to believe that there were no true issues. By the end of the 10 months, almost every magazine we got back for replacement was well-used, obviously customers were using the replacement policy as a way to refresh their magazines after using them for some time. We made it clear to customers that there would be a cutoff on replacement of the magazines.


When people claimed problems, I went looking for problems. I worked to find a way to cause those problems. I could not find them. Customer after customer, magazine after magazine, I could not replicate the problems claimed.


I believe I have more experience with these magazines than anyone else in the US at this point. More than just shooting with them, I have been testing them extensively since early 2010. I know the people that make them and their dedication to quality. I know how the magazines function. Over and over, month after month, I have tested the exact magazines customers claimed problems with, even in rifles I know to be out of spec, and can find no problems.


So you tell me: What am I supposed to think when another customer says he has a problem with these magazines?
Here is what I think. If you really did contact us and request replacement during our replacement period, we will replace your magazines. If not, you take one or two magazines, label them clearly, and list the exact issues you claim to have, send them to me, and I will set up a video camera and test the magazines. If I find they have a problem, we will replace them. If, like in almost every other case, they show no factory defects, dimensions are dead on, and they function fine in multiple rifles, then I will let you know that we could find nothing worn with the magazines. I will even post the video on ARFCOM, like the one above.


I think you will find few companies who have gone further out of the way to stand behind a product.


We went well out of our way to support you guys during the panic. We did not want to. We knew how hard it would be. It was a hard decision. But we knew it was the right decision. In in return, everyone did all they could to cut our throat and destroy our reputation, and the reputation of our products.


Now we have a brand new product that we are announcing here. You have no idea about this product, you do not know what went into the development, you do not know what went into testing. You do not know anything about it, yet here you are warning people away from it. You are telling people that our other products will not function. This might be a game to you, the internet gives you a voice to attack a company, the forums are lots of fun, but for us, it is our work, and the work of others we respect, who care about putting out the best possible product. It is our livelihood, too, and it is our reputations as well. You can hide behind a screen name, we do not.


Something you should know about me - I will not stand behind a product unless I truly believe in it, ever. If I don't like it or don't trust it, I will tell you, even if it is a product we sell.


So if you contacted us during the replacement period, send me an email with that info. I have been hear all along. If you did not, send me a magazine - I will test it and post the video.


But don't come here and tear apart a product you know nothing about.
 

Quoted:
If we told you your magazines would be replaced, then I will personally make sure it gets done. Email me the communication in which we told you that we would replace the mags and it will be taken care of.

On the other hand, here is what happened:

We tested magazines for almost two years prior to importing, that had previously been tested by E-Lander, the IDF, who issues them as standard issue magazines, by independent testing labs, by IWI, who ships them with every Tavor outside the US, by Gilboa, by other manufacturers, and by other foreign militaries.We asked a number of US rifle manufacturers to test these magazines and ALL said they were the most perfectly-made, consistent MIL-SPEC magazines they had ever tested. In EVERY case EVERYONE who tested them could find no fault with the magazines. I tested them in somewhere around a hundred different rifles and machine guns and found NONE that had any issues with these magazines. I have now tested magazines for SCORES of customers who claimed issues with the magazines and found exactly 4 that had a true defect, and all four still functioned in EVERY rifle I tried them in. I have no reason to believe there is any problem with E-Lander magazines.

Soon after we began importing them, and selling them with no complaints from any customers, the Sandy Hook shooting occurred and there was a panicked run on magazines. Our distributors requested hundreds of thousands, and we could have send pallet loads to them and raked in the dough with little work. We could have even spiked the prices. Instead, we told the distributors and dealers that their orders were going to the back of the line and until the panic was over, we would ship only retail orders. We did not raise our prices. This ensured that our magazines would not sell above MSRP - none of our dealers that already had magazines could sell them over MSRP, because we forced the price to stay down. We had to hire extra people, it was tough. I slept only a few hours a night for months. Same with others a Mako.

After some time, a few people complained that the mags were hard to seat in their rifles. We immediately investigated, working with E-Lander and several rifle manufacturers to determine if there was a problem with the magazines. There was not. The E-Lander magazines were consistently dead on the target MIL-SPEC dimensions. The manufacturers explained and demonstrated to us what issues with the construction of rifles can lead to a hard-seating magazine. We interviews customers and determined that about 1% of civilian-market rifles are built in such a way that a true MIL-SPEC magazine will seat hard in them. We could have said, tough, the magazines are MIL-SPEC mags, which is what we clearly advertised them to be. We were, after all, in the middle of a panic with thousands of mags in stock and scrambling to try to get orders out.

Instead, we decided that if we were selling mags to a civilian market, then the mags should be designed for civilian rifles. So we stopped shipping the thousands magazines we had and made one small change that keeps the magazine within MIL-SPEC dimensions, with all dimensions dead on the target dimensions except for one that is moved out, but still within the allowable deviation. This keeps the mags MIL-SPEC, but allows them to seat in the 1% of civilian rifles that seat hard.

Then we told our customers that anyone who had a rifle that the magazines seated hard in could send them back for exchange for the revised magazines. We did this for a couple months, but few took advantage of it (less than 20 customers, total).

Then, the panic died and suddenly everyone wanted their money back. No one cared about the work we did, the extra headaches we went through to get magazines for them at a pre-panic price, the fact that we never raised prices, that we offered to replace magazines that were exactly as advertised with magazines redesigned to work with rifles that were out-of-spec. All people thought about was how much they spent on magazines and they wanted their money back. I spoke with men who cried on the phone with me over the fact that they had mortgaged their homes to buy magazines. Many customers were angry with us because we held the prices down. They had purchased hundreds of magazines with the intent to sell them at inflated prices, but could not. Hundreds of people demanded their money back. Distributors and dealers told us they were experiencing the same thing - when the panic subsided, everyone wanted to return magazines for a refund.

The result was that we got torn apart on this forum over it. Not because the magazines were bad, but because people wanted their money back.

A typical conversation with a customer went like this:
Customer: "I ordered 500 magazines from you a few months ago. I need to return those for a refund."
Me: "Why do you need to return them?"
Customer: "Well, I told my wife I needed to buy them 'cause they were going to be banned. But they didn't get banned so I need to return them."
Me: "We had those magazines made specifically to meet the demand. At this point we can't take returns on magazines for refund. We will replace any defective magazines."
Customer: "I post on a bunch of gun forums. If you don't take them back, I will post on every forum that your magazines are crap!"

People attacked the magazines for several reasons:
- We had several people who flat-out lied about the magazines. When called on it, it turned out they were Magpul fanboys and felt that they were somehow defending Magpul by attacking the reputation of our magazines. They flat told me that they would do whatever they could to keep us from competing with Magpul. These were the ones who started people complaining about the mags.
- We had people who really had an issue with seating the mags - they could be seated, but with a hard slap. From what we can determine, this took place in less that 1% of rifles.
- We had a lot of new or inexperienced AR shooters, who did not know what to expect with AR magazines.
-Some people had substandard parts in their ARs, but did not know how to trouble-shoot, so blamed the magazines.
- One of the biggest problems was new rifles with little or no lube, or the thick factory shipping oil. I helped hundreds of customers who could not get their rifles to function, and assumed it was the magazines, only to have all issues go away when I talked them through lubing their rifles.
- Some people flat-out lied. I have no other explanation for people claiming that no more than 5 rounds could be loaded in a magazine, or the magazine could not be unloaded, or that the edge of the case mouth hung up n the front edge of the magazine (the feed ramps prevent this) or the follower nosedives (the follower is an anti-tilt follower).


As soon as one person claimed a problem, many others parroted it, word for word. I have tested many magazines that could not be loaded with more than 5 rounds, and they loaded up and functioned fine.


We replaced the fully functional M1 and M2 magazines with M3 magazines, no questions asked, for 10 months from the introduction of the M3 magazines. Most people who claimed problems and asked for refunds refused to accept replacement when offered, leading us to believe that there were no true issues. By the end of the 10 months, almost every magazine we got back for replacement was well-used, obviously customers were using the replacement policy as a way to refresh their magazines after using them for some time. We made it clear to customers that there would be a cutoff on replacement of the magazines.


When people claimed problems, I went looking for problems. I worked to find a way to cause those problems. I could not find them. Customer after customer, magazine after magazine, I could not replicate the problems claimed.


I believe I have more experience with these magazines than anyone else in the US at this point. More than just shooting with them, I have been testing them extensively since early 2010. I know the people that make them and their dedication to quality. I know how the magazines function. Over and over, month after month, I have tested the exact magazines customers claimed problems with, even in rifles I know to be out of spec, and can find no problems.


So you tell me: What am I supposed to think when another customer says he has a problem with these magazines?
Here is what I think. If you really did contact us and request replacement during our replacement period, we will replace your magazines. If not, you take one or two magazines, label them clearly, and list the exact issues you claim to have, send them to me, and I will set up a video camera and test the magazines. If I find they have a problem, we will replace them. If, like in almost every other case, they show no factory defects, dimensions are dead on, and they function fine in multiple rifles, then I will let you know that we could find nothing worn with the magazines. I will even post the video on ARFCOM, like the one above.


I think you will find few companies who have gone further out of the way to stand behind a product.


We went well out of our way to support you guys during the panic. We did not want to. We knew how hard it would be. It was a hard decision. But we knew it was the right decision. In in return, everyone did all they could to cut our throat and destroy our reputation, and the reputation of our products.


Now we have a brand new product that we are announcing here. You have no idea about this product, you do not know what went into the development, you do not know what went into testing. You do not know anything about it, yet here you are warning people away from it. You are telling people that our other products will not function. This might be a game to you, the internet gives you a voice to attack a company, the forums are lots of fun, but for us, it is our work, and the work of others we respect, who care about putting out the best possible product. It is our livelihood, too, and it is our reputations as well. You can hide behind a screen name, we do not.


Something you should know about me - I will not stand behind a product unless I truly believe in it, ever. If I don't like it or don't trust it, I will tell you, even if it is a product we sell.


So if you contacted us during the replacement period, send me an email with that info. I have been hear all along. If you did not, send me a magazine - I will test it and post the video.


But don't come here and tear apart a product you know nothing about.