Probably been asked before, but I still cant find a concise answer.

Can you shoulder fire pistol without brace from shoulder?

From what I know you add a brace and shoulder it, it becomes an sbr?

I have a pistol with sig brace and I am ready to remove the brace.

I havent fired my ar-pistol since all this stuff started, and Im getting a stamp or just removing the brace and selling for dirt cheap.

Sorry to bring up this subject, but hoping you can help.

IN on One

No one can leave well enough alone!  Don't write any letters...

In.

Yes, it is legal.

The "logic" of the Sig Brace ruling would suggest that if you use an AR pistol in a new, never-been-done-before, game-changing way and fire it with the buffer rested against your check and any part of the gun touches your shoulder then, yes, you  have created an entirely new thing: an evil short barreled rifle and you must prepare your anus.

But I agree with DasRonin, please don't write any letters.

It always has been and I strongly suggest we leave it alone and let it stay that way.

I wrote a letter to the ATF a few weeks ago asking that very question, About 8 months ago I asked about the Sig Brace and they wrote back a nice letter saying no its not. I also wrote a letter about 3 months ago asking why M855 is still on the market, still waiting for a reply on that one. I will let you know about the buffer tube though when I hear back.

The logic in the lates sig brace letter would indicate the ATF holds the position that if you fire an AR pistol from your shoulder you have redesigned/remade it into a rifle and it must be registered if the barrel is under 16" in length.



I disagree with their interpretation of the law.



Be advised that the law does not use the word stock in the definition of an SBR, only that the weapon is intended to be fired from the shoulder.  If you build a weapon that you intend to fire from the shoulder and the barrel is under 16" you should register it on a form 1.

The Constitution says your right to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed. Not shouldering the tube makes it less stable. That's an infringement. Go for it.

If your intent was not to manufacture a weapon made to be fired from the shoulder and you say so then I have to believe you and no matter how you use that weapon now, tomorrow, or in the future there is no way to

prove otherwise. Either a weapon is illegal or it isnt, get over yourself BATFE.

I agree with you for the most part.  Keep in mind that ATF considers firearms over 26" in length to just be firearms and not AOW's - unless you stick it under a jacket.  Then they consider you to have created an AOW.

Dont worry not writing any letters..

You should write several letters

i agree....i think i'll write one myself as i have often asked myself this same question.....

Their letters are relatively clear that something has to be altered for it to be a redesign.  The receiver extension on an AR-15 is necessary to the function of the pistol.  Adding the brace is a redesign and if you shoulder it, it appears intent can be established from that.  

I suppose the cane tip might be an issue at this point.  

 
I'm emailing everyone I know to request they write clarification letters as well, can't hurt

I had to prepare my anus prior to writing the OP.  LOL

I figured I may receive some backlash for even asking this question.

I am glad I did ask because the answer is obviously not well defined.

It was a fair question because obviously half of those answering the poll are confused.  

Here's the open letter meant for everyone.

http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Firearms/FirearmsIndustry/open_letter_on_the_redesign_of_stabilizing_braces.pdf

It only refers to the altering of a pistol with a brace (obviously other contrivances could be implied but that's for another discussion).  If you don't redesign your pistol with a brace, the letter does not apply to you.  Pretty simple logic.

Nope. Mad Max's letter was clear that the "redesign" happens when you shoulder it, not when you add the brace. Otherwise the firearm would be an unlawful config as soon as you put the brace on it, which is not the case.

- OS

MYOB

I read it the same way as OhShoot.  I disagree with their interpretation, but I believe that is how they meant their letter.

I would say today you are good to go. But who knows about tomorrow? The ATF just makes stuff up as they go.

Yes, but you know that in reality he means "redesign and intent".  You can't just "redesign" to get where he's going.  So somewhere in what he's saying there's both.  And there's no law that says you can't shoulder a pistol.  So without alteration, it's still a pistol regardless of what you do with it.  

Some times it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

But that letter clearly states the redesign is of the brace not the pistol. Redesigning (using) the brace as a stock makes the pistol a SBR (in their world). Without the brace there is nothing to redesign.



 

My understanding is that it is only illegal to shoulder the Sig brace. If it is stabby and uncomfortable then it's legal I think. The brace just makes is not stabby enough.

PAGE TWO OWNAGE!

Thanks, that's very insightful (helps to actually read the thing without implying) .  That's exactly what they're saying, the redesign is of the brace to a stock.  That makes more sense now.    That's an interesting leap, one they can probably make.

Have you been saying that the whole time or did you just realize that?

People are reading what they want to into it. Since no one on the forum can pose a legally binding opinion and enforce it, I won't be bothering with the answers.

The problem solving method requires first identifying the problem. What a lot of people assume is that the pistol is inaccurate and it needs more stabilizing. What nobody is defining is what is accurate?

The pistol is a weapon for use from 21ft (Tuller's 21 foot rule) to about 100m. It's not going to be easy to justify "self defense" with a pistol shooting adversaries beyond that, and if they are, a rifle should be what you were fighting to get to. Still, the AR pistol can do it.

At 100m the average live target - man or deer is about an 18" center of mass hit zone. The average rifle we like to think we can shoot with should, under the best conditions, make a 1 inch group. MIlspec, 2". Shot out from months of combat, 6" to 8", which at 500m would be 40". Not good for combat - but most soldiers only shoot out to about 125m, so we are still talking about 10" with a burned out barrel.

Can you hit a 18" - 18MOA - target at 100m? Without a stock?

Have you even tried?

How do you know you can't?

If you can, isn't hitting a target at that range effective? It's a hit, right? Anywhere in that 18" circle isn't going to be good. thing. And in self defense, hits stop the other guy from continuing the attack. That is military doctrine, the more hits, the less combat power.

What's the goal, a hit, or trying to finesse which side of a one inch group you're putting the bullet?

Brace or buffer, I can't get a good sight picture with the tube touching my shoulder, and a sight picture Is required to get a hit. Standing squared up, I put the toe of the stock on my 16" build very high on the shoulder - because IT'S A STRAIGHT LINE STOCK.

You have to have a flat vertical surface that is long enough to get the sight line up to your eye, and that takes either a long shoulder pad or drop in the comb. We don't get drop, so, the shoulder pad has to be long enough to touch the top of the shoulder - if you are going to use the shoulder to stabilze the gun.

Stabilizing the back of the gun does increase accuracy, no doubt, but do you actually NEED that level of accuracy?

Or, can you practice and learn how to brace the lower arm against your chest using a vertical pistol grip to help stabilize it? Buffer tube on the cheek, nose to the charging handle, and frankly, good enough.

Nobody is going to want to be downrange from a 5.56 weapon firing 77gr OTM with 6-8MOA accuracy under 100m. The risk is too high.

We need to accept the pistol as it is - very few have even started to explore and master it. Slapping on a brace doesn't do that. Going SBR certainly limits the application, it loses all the CCW legality of having it.

Start shooting the pistol as is and learn what you can and can't do with it. Find out is there IS a problem first.

The logic (that the possessor can "redesign" the class of the weapon simply by shouldering it) in the ATF's open letter is asinine.  By that same flawed logic, the possessor would be "redesigning" a bone stock Glock 19 simply by firing it using two hands on the weapon, thus making a NFA item.  Afterall, the definitions set forth are:

“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…
Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as:

… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

So then, accepting their world,  you have an SBR, which is illegal for anyone to possess without a stamp from then on. Riiiggghhht.

- OS

That's not what they're saying.  The letter says its a brace but if you change it's function (redesign it for use as a stock), then it's a stock.  And you can't have a stock on a pistol.  

The question would be, could someone change the function of a stock to a brace.  I'm guessing not since the ATF gets to decide if a design is a brace.  I doubt they'd ever approve a stock for use as a brace.

Nope.  You can sell a registered SBR as long as it's not an SBR, without notifying ATF or de-registering.  Assuming the SBR started out as a pistol, it can go back.  I'm assuming once a brace is redesigned as a stock, it's got to come off.

If I'm ever about to fire my brace equipped AR pistol from my shoulder, and there is a stranger (agent) close enough to witness it actually touching my shoulder, I'll assume he's about to kiss me and I'll bitch slap him before I pull the trigger.

Yes, you can take an SBR out of NFA purview by configuring it as a Title 1 rifle, or stripping to receiver, but a  registered SBR that began life as a pistol can never be a  Title 1 pistol again.

Check up on "retention of parts". As long as there is any short barrel on it, it remains in NFA config and retains its NFA status, just as it would with the short barrel and a stock. Simply removing the stock from it would not make it a Title 1 pistol again -- you'd just be shooting an SBR without a stock.

The pistol-rifle-pistol ruling pertains only to Title 1 firearms and can't be applied to NFA rules, as with Title 1 you have not made a new firearm as per NFA,  but in going SBR you have indeed made a new unique NFA firearm, and that firearm is a rifle and "first a rifle always a rifle".

However, we're talking here actually about it becoming an illegal SBR, not a registered one. I suppose they'd say it's only an illegal SBR while you were shouldering it with a brace and doesn't retain that status, or some such, who knows.

- OS

Is using a brace as a cheek weld allowed/legal, if said brace is not against your shoulder?

Always a wrinkle.  The T/C case changes things dramatically since life started as a pistol and not a rifle.  What is an NFA "firearm" that starts life as a pistol?  That's not in the statutes.

"Q: May I transfer the receiver of a short-barrel rifle or shotgun to an FFL or to an individual as I would any GCA firearm?

   Yes. A weapon that does not meet the definition of a NFA “firearm” is not subject to the NFA and a possessor or transferor needn’t comply with NFA requirements. The firearm is considered a GCA firearm and may be transferred under the provisions of that law."

It's absurd to think one could sell a stripped receiver to someone, it ends up becoming a pistol and then somehow they are back under the NFA.  That would never hold up.

Remember, every short answer in the FAQ is only part of the overall picture. Some are quite incomplete because the exact question was not asked.

And some are exactly wrong, like the longstanding erroneous "shippers have to be notified of all firearms shipments".

Pretty clear to me though, that the answer to:

What is an NFA "firearm" that starts life as a pistol?

is

A short barreled rifle, assuming it has a short barrel and stock. And it's a new rifle, with it's own new identifyers and engraving as to who made it.

Admittedly, the back to receiver scenario is unknown as to how that would play out and who if anyone would be culpable, but pretty dang clear you couldn't legally sell it as a Title 1 complete pistol again just because you removed the stock. Best of luck for anyone who ever has to go to court with any part of that if brought to bear because he thinks differently.

- OS

There's no such thing as a "short barreled rifle" in the NFA.  It's just an NFA "firearm".  So no it's not a rifle at the Federal level.

I just engrave the barrel with the maker's mark.  

Wonder why there's a definition for Short Barreled Rifle in both the USC and CFR in the NFA "firearm" section, eh? (I know you're half yukking).

- OS

Good luck finding it. I'm joking it's there (Title 27), but not part of the NFA.

Really the definition is not there.  

https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-appendix-a.pdf

8 U.S. Code § 921:

(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

Admittedly, it's not in the "NFA section" as I said, but that section uses the term as defined here so I don't get the point.

- OS

The point is there's a lot of sorting out to be done.  The Thompson Center Ruling changes things a bit.  And the ADA has created a lot of de facto short barreled rifles that are perfectly legal as long as you never use them.  The Justice Department has a lot of problems coming down the road.  The laws are obsolete.  Too much room for kangaroo justice with what's going on.  

Well, I'll give you that.

But all those nuances are significantly muddled compared to how this got rolling, ie removing a stock from a registered SBR, deeming it a Title 1 pistol, and disposing of it as such. I do believe you'd be hammered for that even if Clarence Darrow and Melvin Belli resurrected to defend you. Again, the retention of parts that make it an NFA firearm in the first place is the gotcha. You've simply entered another and narrower strata once you go NFA.

- OS

except its not.



 

I think the moral of the story is that nobody is really sure, because the ATF has adopted an asinine and illogical standard for the term "redesign" with regard to the SB-15.  The safe approach is to ensure that, when shooting any AR pistol, the buffer tube/saddle/brace/whatever only contacts your cheek and does not transfer force into your shoulder.  I can't think of any way (for now, at least) that that could be characterized as firing "from the shoulder".

I don't think it would be wise to dispose of it as a pistol.  But selling or giving away the receiver wouldn't give me heartburn in the least.  And like I said, I engrave the barrels not the receiver.  But in any case, I have no reason to dispose of a registered receiver, it's just a thought exercise.  Like trying to get a stock approved as a brace.  Would be nice if you wanted a display and all you needed was a letter from the ATF indicating it was OK for you to use a fiberlite stock as a brace.  I wonder how thick a shockwave brace can be before it is no longer a brace.  The ATF is inviting all sorts of inventors to submit samples to find those parameters.  Makes me wish I had a 3D printer.   I'm surprised someone hasn't come up with an adjustable brace that utilizes a standard carbine tube (not everyones forearm is the same length).   Damn!  There goes my 50 cent idea!

You've stated you believe it's legal to shoulder an AR pistol but you're sticking to shouldering being the redesign.  What's your basis for it being legal?

all nfa rules apply

No, no, I've only stated that Mad Max Kingery says shouldering it redesigns it.

I've always held that the legality is in the config, not the use, that the USC "to be fired from the shoulder" definition will be interpreted by the court as requiring a stock, and that how you actually discharge a legally configured firearm will not figure into its classification.

- OS

Can anyone actually show me a law that states shooting a pistol from the shoulder is illegal?  I will accept court rulings as well.

We are all bent out of shape over the opinion of someone who does not have the authority to alter laws.

If Obama came out today and said all pistols are now illegal 90% of us would laugh our ass off.  So if what Obama says has no legal weight why do we care what some idiot at the ATF thinks?

While I doubt this opinion will be enforced, regulatory agencies are given a lot of leeway to interpret these sorts of things. If you got charged, the burden would be on you to demonstrate that their interpretation went too far. Or just hope you get a judge who thinks "he was holding it wrong!" is as big a load of horseshit as we do.

This is a great post...and I agree 100%.

Shouldering a buffer tube forces you to completely cock your head sideways to form a usable sight picture. Raising it to the cheek line will remedy this...but remove the shoulder element that so many swear they need.

When it comes to usefulness of a firearm, and what you do with it...I have always been under the school of throught that if you can keep it inside a cheap paper plate...you are 100% good to go.

Now, I'm not saying I don't actually go out and target shoot for accuracy/groups...but lets get real here. If I want maximum accuracy, I'm going to my 16" AR, not my AR pistol.

When it comes to my AR pistol, if I can keep my "group" to plate-size at 10 yards or less and be able to do it quickly, that's good enough for me.