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Posted: 2/8/2005 8:14:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Tso,
Cool webpage. I wish the Horus pics are a little more proportion wrt to the complete fov. The big catch will be getting someone to take a picture of the real S&B reticle. I really think that's the best design. |
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Posted: 2/9/2005 5:30:05 AM EDT
[#2]
Excellent webpage!
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Posted: 2/9/2005 8:13:41 AM EDT
[#3]
hycheng and bb, Glad you both liked it! I sized all the pictures down for ease of viewing and loading speed. How do you feel about having a link under the present pictures to a larger, full field of vew shot? The real S&B reticle would be great. I'm going to see if one of the S&B-owning members will do us a favor and post pictures. Hycheng, did your scope come with a manual that would detail weight, eye relief, etc.? When I called them, there were some blank stairs on the other end of the phone I'm sure. If you don't, I'll shoot them a few e-mails and see what I can find out. (If it's been posted on the forums, I can't find it for the life of me.) Thanks again. I'll keep working on it. |
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Posted: 2/9/2005 1:06:29 PM EDT
[#4]
one of the members with a Short Dot has already posted pics of a Short-Dot reticle in either the Reticle FAQ thread or DevL's thread on the Short Dot. I can't remember which; but it is a pic of the dot/mildot reticle combo. |
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Posted: 2/9/2005 1:45:44 PM EDT
[#5]
It was in DevL's thread, but here they are again: 1.1x, no dot - crosshairs are very faint:  1.1x with dot, set too bright for conditions  4x with dot, again too bright:  4x, no dot  T |
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Posted: 2/9/2005 3:56:01 PM EDT
[#6]
Great pictures! Thanks for pointing me to them. If anyone would like to write a review of any of the low-power illuminated scopes, drop me an e-mail. It'd be cool to have everyone's thoughts in one place.
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Posted: 2/9/2005 6:59:25 PM EDT
[#7]
Horus specs (from sells materials) 1-4x24 length : 9.75" Weight : 15.9 oz (450g) Tube : 30mm Wall thickness : 2mm Material : 6061-T,340 HV Hardness 1pc tube Elements 11 + reticle Coating : Full green multi Objective : 24mm FOV : 26.3m-7.5m Eye relief : 4.3"-3.53" Exit pupil : 22-6mm Twilight factor 9.8@4x 4.9@1x Ocular adj : +1.5 to -1.5 Parallax adj : No Adj : 1 click = .1 mil Adj range : 15 mils Shock : 1,200G Waterproof : 2m illumination 11 postion |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 1:32:32 AM EDT
[#8]
Does anyone know the battery life on the Horus? Seems like an excellent optic. Certainly better than the CQT if the quality and optics are up to par. I know nothing about Horus scopes in general. How good are they?
The 1.09-4.0 magnification combined with the heavy CQB reticle might be just the thing to not NEED super bright illumination for indoor/outdoor use... you still would not have daytime, outdoor BAC use though. |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 3:31:24 AM EDT
[#9]
I don't know, the Horus is what, $1k? That's Nightforce and S&B territory. I'd think that would be a better comparision.
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Posted: 2/10/2005 5:39:31 AM EDT
[#10]
Thanks, hycheng! That's very helpful. I hadn't had much luck finding info on the Horus. Would you like to write some of your first hand experiences with the Talon, what influenced your choice, etc.? If you'd like to, feel free to drop me an e-mail: [email protected].
DevL, I'm still trying to find that information. I am going to try to get ahold of someone at Horus Vision again today and see what they are reporting. One member at least offered to contribute some of his thoughts on one of the optics. It'd be really cool to hear from all of you, and I think a lot of people would benefit (myself included). Here's the site as its taking shape: CQB/Intermediate-Range Variables Comparison. Right, now I have a brief introduction and specifications at a glance. Hopefully, I'll be able to add some of your reviews soon. |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 6:36:57 AM EDT
[#11]
G_T if you want I'll grab pics of my 1-4x20 leupold for you too granted it's not illuminated but I think it fits with intermediate ranges and close quarters idea. I don't think the 4-14 IOR would fit this bill though but if you still want pics of it I'll do them.
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Posted: 2/10/2005 7:58:52 AM EDT
[#12]
Some time back I'd read that Trijicon was going to be developing a variable power ACOG, Has anyone heard about this? It would seem to me that a 1-4x ACOG could be designed with the appropriate eye relief, lens diameter, and tube diameter to make it suitable for both CQB and intermediate ranges, which I believe was the whole point of the varible ACOG.
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Posted: 2/10/2005 8:41:36 AM EDT
[#13]
Tagged.
Great information here. I really like the IOR Valdada. The eye reliefe is 3.75" on that correct? Is that too long for CQB work? I was seriously considering an aimpoint, but I like the reticle and idea behind having a more versatile optic like th IOR. This will be going on a rifle that I will use for home defense, but I also will take it out to plink, target shoot etc for fun. Will the IOR be good for use in close quarters like home defense? |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 8:57:54 AM EDT
[#14]
I'd love pictures of both the Leupold and IOR 4-14. If you also want to send me an account of your experiences with the scope, I'd love to post those if for no other reason than it makes for an interesting comparison.
Lots of smart, very experienced people here and I am the least of them, but thanks on behalf of all them! I'm weighing the same decision myself. There's been a lot of positive feedback on the IOR, but I don't have experience with it myself. I'll leave that up to the others. Hopefully, we'll have some volunteers to post their thoughts on the above link and you'll be able to compare them. According to their website, that number is correct. However, I'm not sure if that is their relief for 1.1 or 4 power or possibly an average of the two. I'll be sure to get in touch with IOR-Valdada to get a little more information on that. |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 9:30:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Thats still less than NF by a few bucks and the S&B will be over $1700 dealer cost this year. Thats a nightforce plus a $700 compact ACOG... totally differnt league. |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 9:31:42 AM EDT
[#16]
Just noticed the eye relief on the Horus... thats too bad. Still would like to see it mounted on a rifle though.
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Posted: 2/10/2005 9:39:22 AM EDT
[#17]
I got the Horus at Shotshow for $699, that's IOR price range. I would say the retail price will put it close to NSX.
DevL, All of these 1-4x scope have very similar eye relief. In my case, it is going to a Springfield SOCOM so it is perfect. Keep in mind the 1x eye relief is very generous (with 22mm exit pupil). |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 10:21:23 AM EDT
[#18]
I don't have the IOR on my gun but I do have a 1-4 If you are going to make the Frozen Nuts 3 shoot you can play around with the set up and see how you like the concept if you want. |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 10:27:13 AM EDT
[#19]
What's the Frozen Nuts 3 shoot?  *runs to check the WI forum*ETA: Didn't find anything in the WI forum. What's the Frozen Nuts Shoot? Got a link? Thanks photoman! |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 10:28:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Wow, if I could find one for 700, I'd be really tempted to score one of those. From your pictures, I've been pretty impressed with the Horus. A lot of these optics are really tempting... hycheng, any mention in your literature of battery life or warranty? (You know, I'm a little disappointed with S&B's warranty. I'm sure its a great optic, but I'd feel a little better buying such an expensive optic if the warranty was weightier.) |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 10:44:25 AM EDT
[#21]
I had no idea the S&B was $1700.
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Posted: 2/10/2005 11:12:17 AM EDT
[#22]
Can you post a pic of the Horus lying above a flat top so I can get an idea of the size/scale. I know that you dont have a mount for the AR but just on the floor would give me an idea of the amount of overhand the front would have. Pretty please? Oh, could you do a battery test at full power for us? How does the illuminated reticle work? Like the Leupold...0,1,2,3,4... does it go from 10 to 0 for off or is it 1,off,2,off,3,off etc with offs in between or is it like the Nightforce with a push in/out activate/deactivate feature? Where can I find the reticle stats (ring thickness etc?) Is your reticle pic full power indoors? Also is the unit waterproof without the adjustment caps on? |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 11:41:14 AM EDT
[#23]
So the Horus compares to the S&B thusly:
Horus .25" more eye relief. Scope must be moved .25" further forward. This also makes for less FOV. The Horus has only about 75% the FOV of the S&B. Horus is 2.8 oz lighter, .75" shorter and $1000 less expensive. Battery life for S&B is 100 hours with 6 hour auto shut off and extra batttery stored on scope. Horus unknown battery life. S&B lit reitcle visable in daylight, Horus not. Both have 1/4 MOA clicks and front focal plane reticles with mil distances for ranging. Horus uses grid to have built in drop ticks and S&B uses a cam. Horus has less diopter adjustment which is only an issue if you have very poor eyesight and dont shoot with contacts/glasses. If the reticle brightness and battery life is not too bad I will probably buy the Horus scope if I can find the $700 deal somewhere. I wish they shortened the eye relief about 1" which would increase the FOV substantially. |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 12:20:59 PM EDT
[#24]
Would people like to see FOV added to the comparison?
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Posted: 2/10/2005 12:25:18 PM EDT
[#25]
I was about to Email you to ask if you would include that.
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Posted: 2/10/2005 12:39:59 PM EDT
[#26]
DevL,
I will take a shot of the illuminated reticle to compare with the S&B. But the idea of the day time reticle is just like the donut or eotech circle of death. Just bracket your target 1-200 yds in the circle and shoot. I am chatting with Larry Chao with Horus to get some more info on the scope and software and I'll get to the forum when its ready. My guess is the battery life will be more closer to Leupold than S&B. The Horus spec says .1 moa clicks but my scope says 1/2 moa so I will check on the range when I have the chance. |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 12:56:03 PM EDT
[#27]
DevL, consider it added. Hycheng, that's cool to be talking with Larry Chao. Can you ask him about the warranty also (unless it's listed somewhere obvious that I keep missing)?
Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 2:03:27 PM EDT
[#28]
Man, I wish I could find that onboard battery storage... |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 2:55:51 PM EDT
[#29]
Suposed to be under the windage cap opposite the illumination knob. |
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Posted: 2/10/2005 2:55:52 PM EDT
[#30]
It was a fab for awhile but what about this set up ?
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Posted: 2/10/2005 3:16:47 PM EDT
[#31]
I think those are cool myself, and it seems like it'd be a good solution. I'm not sure how much you'd loose without the same cheekweld, having not done three-gun or taken a carbine class. Did you see SinistralRifleman's three gun set up before the pictures went down? That was a cool setup that I hadn't seen before: red dot a 45 degree angle to the ACOG, mounted on a freefloated handguard.
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Posted: 2/10/2005 5:18:06 PM EDT
[#32]
I know it is supposed to be, but it's not. 
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Posted: 2/10/2005 5:22:59 PM EDT
[#33]
I'm glad to see some serious effort put into an all around combat/field scope solution. It appears that there are companies out there looking into the next level of optics. Low power variables with lit reticles are, IMHO, that next level. This thread shows what's out there today, we can only expect future products to be even better. General_Tso, thanks for the cool web page. It can only further shooter knowledge of the subject.
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Posted: 2/10/2005 5:33:06 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 2/10/2005 6:13:56 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 2/10/2005 8:32:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Great info here, and nice summary on the other website. How about putting mounted and/or unmounted photos of each of the scopes on your website? Helps to get a feel for their size, bulk and design.
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Posted: 2/11/2005 11:35:58 AM EDT
[#37]
Thanks again! I got a bug to dust off my HTML and thought this would be a useful application for that. The real brains at work are those with the experience with these optics (and all the cool toys). However, anyone who wants to thank me more can invite me over to play with some of these sweet optics.
 I'll add some mounted pictures to the review sections (as of yet unwritten) below the specifications at a glance. If anyone would like to write a mini-review of their scopes, send me an e-mail. You'll of course be credited to AR15.com or whatever name you want. Drop me a note if your interested! Here's the link again if the link is broken anywhere: Close Quarters and Intermediate-Range Variable Comparison. I was tinkering with the site, and I changed the URL slightly. |
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Posted: 2/12/2005 4:53:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Horus outdoor
1x  4x  Both illumination settings are Full 11 |
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Posted: 2/12/2005 7:13:59 PM EDT
[#39]
General tso keep up the good work. I am finding the info you are compiling in one location usefull.
Thanks to all the members for the pics and insight... |
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Posted: 2/13/2005 9:20:44 AM EDT
[#40]
Cool pictures, hycheng. Thanks, I post those shortly. Do you have a picture of it mounted yet? Stryfox, thanks!
 In lieu of specific "mini-articles," I'm going to collect some "pro" and "con" statements from various optics discussions and juxtapose them with citations to the appropriate thread. However, I'd love to put some some mini-reviews on the site, too. |
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Posted: 2/13/2005 3:08:21 PM EDT
[#41]
Mods,
I think this post starts to worth being a stick on. If Tacpoint FAQ is worth it, this thread certainly does. |
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Posted: 2/13/2005 6:17:11 PM EDT
[#42]
This might be outside the scope of this thread, but maybe not. I've been comparing the FOV of these optics, and something struck me. In the big reticle thread, new-arguy described the Leupold CR/T as having poor FOV--but on paper the FOV looks pretty decent: 116.6' according the Leupold literature. Do other factors impact the perception of the FOV that on paper might look impressive? Is the inverse true for optics with less impressive FOVs? Also, how much does FOV come into play when using the BAC?
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Posted: 2/14/2005 3:07:12 AM EDT
[#43]
Why is the ring not illuminated on the bottom half outdoors? Looks 'almost' bright enough for BAC use. If the bottom half of the outer ring was illuminated it would be much better. Seems like an uneven reticle lighting like in the early illuminated Leupolds. Is that normal or something that should be sent in for warranty work?
Also are the blurry, purplish aberations what you actually see through the scope? They look like hell IMO. The quality of the glass would be very sub par for the price if thats what you actually see and its not the camera causing that. |
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Posted: 2/14/2005 5:13:18 AM EDT
[#44]
 It seems illuminated in this shot although on second glance it looks a bit uneven in that shot, too. I don't know what that purple glare could be, though... |
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Posted: 2/14/2005 5:34:29 AM EDT
[#45]
tag.
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Posted: 2/14/2005 7:05:50 AM EDT
[#46]
In a year of using my TR21 I've come to a conclusion. BAC is not really the factor with variables as it is with a fixed power ACOG. It's more beneficial to just turn the power ring down and enjoy greater field of view and speed than use the BAC feature, IMHO. The illuminated reticle is intoxicating though, and once you get accustomed to it there's no turning back... Just my observation. |
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Posted: 2/14/2005 9:51:50 AM EDT
[#47]
The bottom half is illuminated also. I had a hard time getting the camera in focus and without any tripod, it is the best I can do with 2 mins of spare time on a valentine weekend with a wife wanting attention for the whole weekend  . But I would suggest you go to gunshow to check out the optics side by side to make your own judgement.
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Posted: 2/14/2005 10:26:26 AM EDT
[#48]
I've been thinking about sticking this in the FAQ threads post, i think i will, but only once it starts to loose the recent interest it has.
The FOV on the CQ/T is probably listed in its low magnification. Turn the magnification up and you loose a lot. Thats probably due to its very small lenses? All of these battery powered illuminated reticles dont glow as brightly as a non battery powered ACOG from what I have noticed. The Horus seems to be glowing very dim, even at its brightest setting. The Leupolds dont glow much either. I've looked through the US Optics SN4 just like the one pictured on the summary page, and it didnt glow brightly at all either. The Night Force was the brightest, so is the Scmidt and Bender, but only a dot is illuminated on the S&B. Then again, for BAC, thats all you really need. But for BAC, in my opinion, the brighter the reticle, the better. You can get "too" bright, but none of these reticles have that issue. Some of them are, again in my view, too dim. |
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Posted: 2/14/2005 11:41:00 AM EDT
[#49]
That's a good observation. Maxwell is quite fair on battery, if you illuminate a large area like the Leupold and Horus (full circle and the cross), you either have a not so bright reticle or you will have short battery life. S&B's dot has the smallest area (a dot) and thus can be bright and longer battery life too. That said, a thick non-illuminated circle like those in IOR or Horus helps the eye to focus whereas the Leupold thin lines are just washed out to the background when you rapidly move your view.
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Posted: 2/14/2005 12:57:33 PM EDT
[#50]
BAC is most usefull when the reticle allows quick targeting on distant objects ina magnified mode. It allows switching from one distant object to another without hunting. Trying to use the variable zoom then centering on the next target and zoming again is counter productive in that scenario.
As far as trying one locally I have a local gunshow who is a Horus distibutor and have none. None at the last 2 Houston gun shows either. If I could try it out and it was at least Leupold quality Id buy it for under retail if I could find it. As far as the reticle brightness issues... I have only tried older Nightforce design with pull out illumination on the paralax knob. This was one of the LEAST illuminated reticles I ever saw. Like an early Leupold it was BLACK during daylight and not the least bit colored like in the Horus outdoor pic. |
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