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Posted: 10/11/2014 1:06:24 PM EDT
[#1]
LEID,
thanks, that might explain some windage drift I have been getting. I have an extended rail on my Accuracy Speaks AR but not my bolt gun. One peice base would also let me mount an incline dial onto the one piece base. Would you recommend an aluminium or steel base for the bolt gun? |
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Posted: 10/11/2014 1:19:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Many major name builders/shooters appear to be comfortable with high quality aluminum. If weight is not a consideration, steel has superior strength IMO. The MK4 steel rings I use are heavy but they are rock solid. But for AR15/M16 use, we need to remember that the upper receiver itself is aluminum. Well engineered aluminum parts can work very well.
Edit: We want to give the TMK every opportunity to demonstrate its potential. |
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Posted: 10/17/2014 6:57:51 AM EDT
[#3]
Anybody planning on using this on deer this season? Would be curious to hear how it does on game, both varmints and slightly larger critters.
I have no doubt it would be quite devastating; I just can't get out to test it this year! |
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Posted: 10/17/2014 9:59:13 AM EDT
[#4]
Will try to sneak away for a week long hunt/shoot towards the end of the month. About the only suitable "walking ballistics tests" I can shoot with a rifle just yet are hogs and luckily I have very few. Would think a well-placed TMK bullet would work OK on hogs but also think that a 5.56MM TSX loading would be much better suited. Quick "short neck" expansion to over 2X diameter/100% weight retention/deep penetration of the TSX loads are just the ticket for hogs. IIRC, Jeff Hoffman encouraged this line of thinking early on in this thread. Hogs are pretty tough on bullets so starting with a bullet that is proven tough on hogs is wise planning. The 0.224" TSX bullet is a well proven hog killer. I am looking at the 5.56MM BHA 77gr. TMK loading as a LR accuracy cartridge that can be used for simple non-LE SD/HD & probably for hunting whitetail. Also very much hoping the TMK load has a healthy accuracy advantage over the TSX loads in 1X7 10.0"/10.3"/10.5" barrels. Have not had much luck with 62gr or 70gr. TSX accuracy in 10.0"/10.3"/10.5" barrel lengths but the 1X7 14.5"/16"/ longer barrels shoot them just fine. And I have one 70gr. TSX over 5.56MM NATO pressure TAC handload that is a hummer load in the 1x7 14.5" I use it in. Would rather use factory for many reasons: new mil spec brass with crimped/ sealed primers, high MV at much reduced pressure from the non-canister grade propellants used/increased thermal stability/etc. Handloaders may not like to admit it (been one for over 4 decades), but we can't touch some of these qualities mostly due to the canister grade propellants we use. And I would much rather spend my limited free time hunting/shooting rather than working up/accuracy testing my own loads. Unfortunately, high quality factory 5.56MM TSX loadings can be in short supply just when you start running low. Am hoping that the BHA 5.56MM 77gr. TMK load will prove capable of taking care of most of my 5.56MM ammunition needs (other than practice ammo).
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Posted: 10/18/2014 1:18:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anybody planning on using this on deer this season? Would be curious to hear how it does on game, both varmints and slightly larger critters. I have no doubt it would be quite devastating; I just can't get out to test it this year! Yes, I am planning to take this stuff to WV in late November, early December for gun season. I too think that this new TMK load will be great for mid to large-sized game. That, or for some awesome long range varmint hunting. We just got in our ammo for testing, which I'll hopefully start on early this week; weather permitting.  ETA: It fits in both my PMAGs and GI mags. I measured one round, and the OAL was 2.243".  |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 3:34:47 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll have to pick up a box of these to try out. Jeff you know how well these work out of a 10.5? Anyone? Seems like this round doesn't rely as much on fragmentation as it would penetration. What kind of velocity would you need to ensure expansion? Penetration? What kind of velocities are you achieving with a 10.5 barrel? 11.5? 12? Where is it in stock online? And, not to sound unpleasant, but how would this stand up to the two legged animals? |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 7:50:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone? Seems like this round doesn't rely as much on fragmentation as it would penetration. What kind of velocity would you need to ensure expansion? Penetration? What kind of velocities are you achieving with a 10.5 barrel? 11.5? 12? Where is it in stock online? And, not to sound unpleasant, but how would this stand up to the two legged animals? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'll have to pick up a box of these to try out. Jeff you know how well these work out of a 10.5? Anyone? Seems like this round doesn't rely as much on fragmentation as it would penetration. What kind of velocity would you need to ensure expansion? Penetration? What kind of velocities are you achieving with a 10.5 barrel? 11.5? 12? Where is it in stock online? And, not to sound unpleasant, but how would this stand up to the two legged animals? Jeff said that it would fragment down to 1900 fps or lower. I'm really interested in seeing some gelatin shots beyond the promotional one. |
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Posted: 10/19/2014 11:12:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where is it in stock online? I posted this earlier, and then went ahead and made a purchase with this seller. My order is on it's way (I have UPS tracking info), and should be here in a couple days. I won't be doing any testing to answer your questions, but can say that the seller is a great guy and shipped within one business day of payment. I did speak to him on the phone, and will buy from him again. https://www.thefinalimage.com/black-hills-5-56mm-77-gr-tmk-tipped-matchking-box-of-50.html |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 9:32:05 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I posted this earlier, and then went ahead and made a purchase with this seller. My order is on it's way (I have UPS tracking info), and should be here in a couple days. I won't be doing any testing to answer your questions, but can say that the seller is a great guy and shipped within one business day of payment. I did speak to him on the phone, and will buy from him again. https://www.thefinalimage.com/black-hills-5-56mm-77-gr-tmk-tipped-matchking-box-of-50.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Where is it in stock online? I posted this earlier, and then went ahead and made a purchase with this seller. My order is on it's way (I have UPS tracking info), and should be here in a couple days. I won't be doing any testing to answer your questions, but can say that the seller is a great guy and shipped within one business day of payment. I did speak to him on the phone, and will buy from him again. https://www.thefinalimage.com/black-hills-5-56mm-77-gr-tmk-tipped-matchking-box-of-50.html Of course. Days after I buy a bunch of 5.56 OTM, I find out about this. Stupid me . . . |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 7:42:51 PM EDT
[#10]
Well, I went to the range today and got some chronograph results, and shot some groups at 100 and 200 yards with my 18" SPR. I was very impressed with this load's performance. This stuff flies better out of my barrel than any other heavy 5.56mm load I've shot to date.
Velocity averaged 2736fps out of my 18" barrel (they claim 2750fps on their site), and most all of my groups were under 1MOA at 100 yards. 100 yards, best 5-shot group of the day. I have several that were close to this size.  200 yards, best 5-shot group (I shot this group rather fast too).  Side by side comparison: IMI M855, BH 5.56mm 77gr OTM (SMK), Australian Outback .223 55gr BlitzKing, BH 5.56mm 77gr TMK.  I have more in my range report here. |
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Posted: 10/23/2014 4:56:25 PM EDT
[#11]
This has me super excited!
Thanks for the review Muad. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 11:23:20 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This has me super excited! Thanks for the review Muad. You're welcome. I hope some find it helpful when looking at this new ammo. I'm going to go out today since the weather conditions are much better than when I shot the above groups (cold with 9MPG winds out of the North). I'd like to see if I can shoot some smaller groups, and I'm also hoping to shoot them in another rifle that has a WOA 20" SDM barrel. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 3:20:35 PM EDT
[#13]
GREEN tip?
Now I won't be able to tell this from my M855... |
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Posted: 11/2/2014 12:50:53 AM EDT
[#14]
If it will consistently do what it did in that image on page 1, then this stuff is going to be NASTY! I had moved away from previous OTM loads because I didn't completely trust them to perform reliably and consistently. There were just too many variables at play and if any one of them was off, you might not get much fragmentation, if any. But now that these are purpose built to deliver excellent terminal performance (consistently), I just may have to give up my controlled expansion loads for the these in the role of home defense. It is sweet to have a load capable of delivering this type of performance without being so dependent on velocity, early bullet yaw and cannelure failure to achieve it.
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Posted: 11/2/2014 2:11:12 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it will consistently do what it did in that image on page 1, then this stuff is going to be NASTY! I had moved away from previous OTM loads because I didn't completely trust them to perform reliably and consistently. There were just too many variables at play and if any one of them was off, you might not get much fragmentation, if any. But now that these are purpose built to deliver excellent terminal performance (consistently), I just may have to give up my controlled expansion loads for the these in the role of home defense. It is sweet to have a load capable of delivering this type of performance without being so dependent on velocity, early bullet yaw and cannelure failure to achieve it. I am eagerly awaiting some new gelatin tests, especially comparing this to 5.56 75gr tap... |
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Posted: 11/2/2014 4:11:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anybody planning on using this on deer this season? Would be curious to hear how it does on game, both varmints and slightly larger critters. I have no doubt it would be quite devastating; I just can't get out to test it this year! I'd like to see how well this stuff works, also. I know from experience that a 55gr ballistic tip will adequately drop a deer DRT, whereas a 69gr non-tipped Sierra MatchKing round will overpenetrate (3 rounds into a doe and she didn't even flinch until the third round, when she bolted off...got a reflex shot at close range that dropped her when I saw her coming back to the feeder as I looked for a blood trail). Best I could find on the rack at Academy this year was some 60gr Winchester PDX1 rounds, so that's what I'm going with this evening. If I get lucky, I'll let you know how it goes! |
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Posted: 11/2/2014 11:03:36 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd like to see how well this stuff works, also. I know from experience that a 55gr ballistic tip will adequately drop a deer DRT, whereas a 69gr non-tipped Sierra MatchKing round will overpenetrate (3 rounds into a doe and she didn't even flinch until the third round, when she bolted off...got a reflex shot at close range that dropped her when I saw her coming back to the feeder as I looked for a blood trail). Best I could find on the rack at Academy this year was some 60gr Winchester PDX1 rounds, so that's what I'm going with this evening. If I get lucky, I'll let you know how it goes! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Anybody planning on using this on deer this season? Would be curious to hear how it does on game, both varmints and slightly larger critters. I have no doubt it would be quite devastating; I just can't get out to test it this year! I'd like to see how well this stuff works, also. I know from experience that a 55gr ballistic tip will adequately drop a deer DRT, whereas a 69gr non-tipped Sierra MatchKing round will overpenetrate (3 rounds into a doe and she didn't even flinch until the third round, when she bolted off...got a reflex shot at close range that dropped her when I saw her coming back to the feeder as I looked for a blood trail). Best I could find on the rack at Academy this year was some 60gr Winchester PDX1 rounds, so that's what I'm going with this evening. If I get lucky, I'll let you know how it goes! |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 11:00:00 AM EDT
[#18]
A cold front with strong gusty winds was fast approaching so accuracy test had do be done very rapidly. Below (5) shot group fired with the BHA 77gr. TMK from a 18" 1x7.7 Krieger/CLE 5.56MM chamber with M4 can. Clean, cold bore shot is at 7 o'clock and was measured with the group. 600yd. group was about 5". That's it for testing until after the hunting season is over: I shoot/test where I hunt. Quiet time.
Water-Shot Expansion: Will pop a whitetail with the TMK bullet to verify terminal performance on flesh & bone but it all looks very good to me. Edit: (3) TMK bullets were fired into water at the (3) different muzzle velocities (MV) listed. Jeff Hoffman from BHA previously posted that testing of the TMK looked good down to 1920 FPS (with further testing pending) so I wanted to get a good spread on MV. The velocity spread of 1906 FPS to 2784 FPS is a good representation of the approx. minimum velocity needed for expansion up to the approx. velocity you could expect from a 20" 1x7 chrome lined barrel at the muzzle (MV). Each TMK bullet expanded to the point that small pieces of lead & copper jacket fragmented off the bullet as it continued to penetrate. The small pieces of green plastic tip/copper jacket/lead are pictured at the top with the largest pieces at the bottom. FBI protocol gel-shot testing gives a much better indication of the terminal performance you can expect on a flesh & bone target. But a thin-skinned flesh & bone target such as a whitetail will be my final test of the TMK bullet's terminal performance. 
BHA 5.56MM TMK MV at approx. 77 degrees F: 10.0" 1X7 Colt LWT M4: 2344 FPS 10.5 1X7 SS Noveske: 2403 FPS 14.5" 1x7 Colt M4A1: 2602 FPS (This barrel is pretty worn) 16" 1X7 Colt M4: 2705 FPS 18" 1X7.7 SS Krieger/CLE 5.56 chamber: 2784 FPS |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 11:19:04 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A cold front with strong gusty winds was fast approaching so accuracy test had do be done very rapidly. Below (5) shot group fired with the BHA 77gr. TMK from a 18" 1x7.7 Krieger/CLE 5.56MM chamber with M4 can. Clean, cold bore shot is at 7 o'clock and was measured with the group. 600yd. group was about 5". That's it for testing until after the hunting season is over: I shoot/test where I hunt. Quiet time. <a href="http://s9.photobucket.com/user/leid/media/shooting/29cfa568-7b4a-4877-a792-dce5986f8b17_zpsc535c830.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/shooting/29cfa568-7b4a-4877-a792-dce5986f8b17_zpsc535c830.jpg</a> Water-Shot Expansion: Will pop a whitetail with the TMK bullet to verify terminal performance on flesh & bone but it all looks very good to me. <a href="http://s9.photobucket.com/user/leid/media/shooting/c2e6e5e7-a81f-4f74-b2e1-42a2c0357de9_zpsd880506e.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/shooting/c2e6e5e7-a81f-4f74-b2e1-42a2c0357de9_zpsd880506e.jpg</a> BHA 5.56MM TMK MV at approx. 77 degrees F: 10.0" 1X7 Colt LWT M4: 2344 FPS 10.5 1X7 SS Noveske: 2403 FPS 14.5" 1x7 Colt M4A1: 2602 FPS (This barrel is pretty worn) 16" 1X7 Colt M4: 2705 FPS 18" 1X7.7 SS Krieger/CLE 5.56 chamber: 2784 FPS Great info, thank you! |
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Posted: 11/3/2014 12:48:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A cold front with strong gusty winds was fast approaching so accuracy test had do be done very rapidly. Below (5) shot group fired with the BHA 77gr. TMK from a 18" 1x7.7 Krieger/CLE 5.56MM chamber with M4 can. Clean, cold bore shot is at 7 o'clock and was measured with the group. 600yd. group was about 5". That's it for testing until after the hunting season is over: I shoot/test where I hunt. Quiet time. http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/shooting/29cfa568-7b4a-4877-a792-dce5986f8b17_zpsc535c830.jpg Water-Shot Expansion: Will pop a whitetail with the TMK bullet to verify terminal performance on flesh & bone but it all looks very good to me. http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/shooting/c2e6e5e7-a81f-4f74-b2e1-42a2c0357de9_zpsd880506e.jpg BHA 5.56MM TMK MV at approx. 77 degrees F: 10.0" 1X7 Colt LWT M4: 2344 FPS 10.5 1X7 SS Noveske: 2403 FPS 14.5" 1x7 Colt M4A1: 2602 FPS (This barrel is pretty worn) 16" 1X7 Colt M4: 2705 FPS 18" 1X7.7 SS Krieger/CLE 5.56 chamber: 2784 FPS Excellent shooting and info, thanks for sharing LEID. I'm hoping to tag a whitetail or two later this month with the 77Gr TMK. |
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Posted: 11/5/2014 3:34:26 AM EDT
[#21]
Could you please clarify something for the image with the fragmented bullets? Pictured is a total of 3 bullets, correct? The small fragments are in piles, with the larger fragments beneath? Or is that 6 bullets?
I think it's pretty clear already, and assume it's only 3 bullets. But I just thought I'd double check. |
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Posted: 11/5/2014 9:39:29 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Could you please clarify something for the image with the fragmented bullets? Pictured is a total of 3 bullets, correct? The small fragments are in piles, with the larger fragments beneath? Or is that 6 bullets? I think it's pretty clear already, and assume it's only 3 bullets. But I just thought I'd double check. No problem. (3) TMK bullets were fired into water at the (3) different muzzle velocities (MV) listed. Jeff Hoffman from BHA previously posted that testing of the TMK looked good down to 1920 FPS (with further testing pending) so I wanted to get a good spread on MV. The velocity spread of 1906 FPS to 2784 FPS is a good representation of the approx. minimum velocity needed for expansion up to the approx. velocity you could expect from a 20" 1x7 chrome lined barrel at the muzzle (MV). Each TMK bullet expanded to the point that small pieces of lead & copper jacket fragmented off the bullet as it continued to penetrate. The small pieces of green plastic tip/copper jacket/lead are pictured at the top with the largest pieces at the bottom. FBI protocol gel-shot testing gives a much better indication of the terminal performance you can expect on a flesh & bone target. But a thin-skinned flesh & bone target such as a whitetail will be my final test of the TMK bullet's terminal performance. Edit: Also posted above for clarification. |
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Posted: 11/6/2014 5:00:36 PM EDT
[#23]
That's some good muzzle velocity from a 10 inch barrel
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Posted: 11/9/2014 2:00:05 PM EDT
[#24]
For those with access to a ballistic calculator, what do the trajectories look like? I'm wondering what zero would offer me the smallest combat effective zone from 0-300 yards using a 16" barrel.
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Posted: 11/9/2014 8:03:27 PM EDT
[#25]
For the TL:DR crowd, anyone manufacturers loading it to NATO specs?
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Posted: 11/9/2014 8:50:12 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For the TL:DR crowd, anyone manufacturers loading it to NATO specs? Only Black Hills has access to this bullet, and they only make a 5.56 pressure load. |
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Posted: 11/9/2014 10:30:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For those with access to a ballistic calculator, what do the trajectories look like? I'm wondering what zero would offer me the smallest combat effective zone from 0-300 yards using a 16" barrel. So far I have only confirmed my dopes out to 200, but my come-ups matched the Hornady Ballistic Cheat sheet perfectly. ETA: I want to add that so far, the 50 yard zero has been the best for all .223/5.56mm loads I've tested, offering the least amount of deviation from POA. This includes my handloads, these TMKs, etc. ETA2: Using JBM's conversion calclulator, using my personal data and the .420 G1 profile BC, it came up with a G7 BC of 0.210. I'm going to run this through a couple ballistic calculators, and I plan to hit the range in a bit to verify out to 300 yards (maybe 500 if I have time). I'll report back with my findings as to which is more accurate. |
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Posted: 11/10/2014 11:36:04 AM EDT
[#28]
Here are the tables comparing 50, 100, and 200 yard dopes, using the data I captured from my 18" barrel.
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Posted: 11/10/2014 12:21:53 PM EDT
[#29]
Just a note, that a 50 and a 200 zero are really the same in that they cross the sight line twice, while a 100 does not.
Effectively, what you are doing with a 50 and 200 zero is super elevating to get the shot fall to intersect at 200, while at 100 you are sending it up at a shallow angle from which it begins to fall. All of which is okay cause it really is arbitrary as long as you know your distance well enough. Windage is always just as important in terms of shot placement and a more efficient bullet can't hurt in these conditions. Edit: Curious? Is there any BC data from a reliable source out there for this round? I noticed you ran the numbers with G1? |
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Posted: 11/10/2014 12:59:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just a note, that a 50 and a 200 zero are really the same in that they cross the sight line twice, while a 100 does not. Effectively, what you are doing with a 50 and 200 zero is super elevating to get the shot fall to intersect at 200, while at 100 you are sending it up at a shallow angle from which it begins to fall. All of which is okay cause it really is arbitrary as long as you know your distance well enough. Windage is always just as important in terms of shot placement and a more efficient bullet can't hurt in these conditions. Edit: Curious? Is there any BC data from a reliable source out there for this round? I noticed you ran the numbers with G1? Not that I'm aware of. I ran my numbers with G1 because Black Hills noted a BC of .420 (G1). I have yet to see any G7 data posted. I like the 50 yard dope because it offers the least amount of deviation from my POA at the distances I hunt. Therefore, so long as I know the target is within, say 250 yards, I can use the same point of aim and still take the animal. This is of course, assuming I've factored the other elements properly (wind, etc.). |
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Posted: 11/11/2014 12:37:16 AM EDT
[#31]
I made it to the range today to test the real world ballistics of this load using my 50 yard zero, and to compare to the output of the Berger and Hornady ballistics calculators (using the .420 G1 and .210 G7 profiles). I'll note that the ballistics between the two profiles looked almost identical, until beyond 300 yards, where there were slight changes (tenths of an inch) at each distance.
Today I had time to shoot from 50 - 300 yards, and my results were close to the BC; but not exact. I'll also note that the 77gr TMKs continue to fly extremely well for me, producing sub MOA results all the way out to 300 yards. Conditions: 62 degrees F, with a 10-15MPH wind out of the south (our range points pretty much due north). Velocity (5 shot spread average): 2756fps (20fps higher than the average I saw when it was colder out). Berger ballistics readout (using a 50 yard zero, velocity from my previous outing, and .210 G7 profile):  Berger ballistics readout (using a 50 yard zero, velocity from my previous outing, and .420 G1 profile):  My actual results: 50 yards - 0" 100 yards - +2.25" 200 yards - +0.5" 300 yards - -7.5" I'll be working up my own cheat sheet based off of these results, but either way I'm confident that I can pretty much hold dead on out to 200-250 yards on mid to large sized game, then hold high or add a few clicks of elevation at 300+. However, I doubt I'll be taking any long shots on my upcoming whitetail hunt. We shall see.  Pics of 100 yard and 300 yard 3-shot groups (ETA: I borrowed my Wife's purple pen  ):  |
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Posted: 11/11/2014 10:17:22 AM EDT
[#32]
Happy Veterans Day & Thanks for your service to you vets!
I fired some TMK cartridges last week at 29 degree F OAT in the morning but at 80 degree F OAT in the afternoon. We are getting into winter conditions so here is a heads-up. Many if not most of the common 5.56MM loadings, including both the BHA 5.56MM TMK & BHA 5.56MM MK 262 MOD 1 loadings as well as the U.S. standard M855 loading, use a spherical double based propellant. Double based propellant contains nitroglycerin (NG) for added energy. Because of the NG, the MV of a cartridge using a spherical double based propellant will vary with the temperature of the propellant. So don't expect the same MV in the dead of winter that you got at high noon in the Texas summer heat. I have been using 1 FPS/1 Degree F as a rule of thumb for thermal variation of the BHA MK 262 MOD 1 cartridge. A quick thermal check indicated this figure should also work with the BHA 5.56MM 77GR. TMK loading. When you chrono, always note the approx. ambient outside air temperature (OAT). Here is what the BHA TMK & early BHA MK 262 MOD 1 casings look like after being heat/cold soaked for a minimum of 4 hours then fired as quickly as possible after being removed from the heat/cold source (probably 20-30 seconds). A couple years back, I added a heating pad and a freezer next to the chrono just to get a good idea of thermal variation of different loadings. BHA 5.56MM 77GR. TMK (Lot 1806182604) over very early BHA 5.56MM MK 262 MOD 1 (Lot BLH03M034-001) fired in 18" Krieger/CLE 5.56MM chambered barrel: IIRC, the BHA MK 262 MOD 1 loading only generates approx. 58,300 PSI. DOD 5.56MM mil-spec limits pressure to 58,700 PSI but MAX 5.56MM NATO pressure is approx. 62,350 PSI. Edit: MVs added. This was just a one-shot-each "quick-look" at thermal variation. Will get data on a (5) shot string of TMK in the future. Already have it on a 2006 lot of BHA MK 262 MOD 1. 
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Posted: 11/11/2014 10:53:27 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Happy Veterans Day & Thanks for your service to all you vets! I fired some TMK cartridges last week at 29 degree OAT in the morning but at 80 degree F in the afternoon. This indicating we are getting into winter conditions so here is a heads-up. Many of the common 5.56MM loadings, including the BHA 5.56MM TMK & BHA MK 262 MOD 1 loadings, use a spherical double based propellant. Double based propellant contains nitroglycerin (NG) for added energy. Because of the NG, the MV of a cartridge using a spherical double based propellant will vary with the temperature of the propellant. So don't expect the same MV in the dead of winter that you got at high noon in the Texas summer heat. I have been using 1 FPS/1 Degree F as a rule of thumb for thermal variation of the BHA MK 262 MOD 1 cartridge. A quick thermal check indicated this figure should also work with the BHA 5.56Mm 77GR. TMK loading. When you chrono, always note the approx. ambient outside air temperature (OAT). Here is what the BHA TMK & early BHA MK 262 MOD 1 casings look like after being heat/cold soaked for a minimum of 4 hours then fired as quickly as possible after being removed from the heat/cold source (probably 20-30 seconds). A couple years back, I added a heating pad and a freezer next to the chrono just to get a good idea of thermal variation of different loadings. BHA 77GR. TMK (Lot 1806182604) over early BHA MK 262 MOD 1 (Lot BLH03M034-001): IIRC, the BHA MK 262 MOD 1 loading only generates approx. 58,300 PSI. U.S. 5.56MM mil-spec limits pressure to 58,700 PSI but MAX 5.56MM NATO pressure is approx. 62,350 PSI. http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a72/leid/shooting/c58d7b97-a1cf-492a-864d-30aaaa249947_zps6096a88f.jpg Thanks for the post Leid. Your formula (1 FPS/1 Degree F) sounds accurate. Yesterday ambient temps were approx. 20 degrees higher than the last time I chronographed the TMK load, and I saw a 20FPS rise in average MV. Thanks for sharing. |
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Posted: 11/11/2014 3:53:40 PM EDT
[#34]
I've been trying to find this round (or even the regular MK) in stock at a place will ship to me. But no luck. And every gun shop I've been to... I ask if they carry Black Hills 77gr. MK or TMK and they look at me like I'm an alien. They've never heard of this round before. Hard to find!
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Posted: 11/11/2014 4:25:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been trying to find this round (or even the regular MK) in stock at a place will ship to me. But no luck. And every gun shop I've been to... I ask if they carry Black Hills 77gr. MK or TMK and they look at me like I'm an alien. They've never heard of this round before. Hard to find! From one of Jeff Hoffman's earlier posts: "If you call our office and provide your zip code we can advise closest dealer to you, or set you up with a dealer that can ship to you. 800 568 6625. Thanks, Jeff Hoffman, Black Hills Ammunition" |
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Posted: 11/11/2014 4:40:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From one of Jeff Hoffman's earlier posts: "If you call our office and provide your zip code we can advise closest dealer to you, or set you up with a dealer that can ship to you. 800 568 6625. Thanks, Jeff Hoffman, Black Hills Ammunition" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've been trying to find this round (or even the regular MK) in stock at a place will ship to me. But no luck. And every gun shop I've been to... I ask if they carry Black Hills 77gr. MK or TMK and they look at me like I'm an alien. They've never heard of this round before. Hard to find! From one of Jeff Hoffman's earlier posts: "If you call our office and provide your zip code we can advise closest dealer to you, or set you up with a dealer that can ship to you. 800 568 6625. Thanks, Jeff Hoffman, Black Hills Ammunition" Awesome, will do just that. Thanks! |
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Posted: 11/12/2014 1:55:06 AM EDT
[#37]
Muad, thanks very much for your excellent data! That is extremely helpful and definitely supports the 50 yard zero. On a man size target you can basically hold COM out to 300 yards and get a combat effective hit. And once you memorize your holdovers, it looks like it wouldn't be much more of a challenge to do the same out to 500 yards with normal optics or irons. I can only imagine how useful this round would be for longer range work when combined with some sort of BDC reticle and a skilled distance shooter. Unfortunately, I'm not one of those skilled long range shooters. Nonetheless, this still appears to be an impressive load for defensive use and therein lies my interest. We are so lucky to be living in this age of firearms and ammunition innovation. I can't wait to see where innovation leads us in the coming years.
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Posted: 11/13/2014 1:21:47 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Muad, thanks very much for your excellent data! That is extremely helpful and definitely supports the 50 yard zero. On a man size target you can basically hold COM out to 300 yards and get a combat effective hit. And once you memorize your holdovers, it looks like it wouldn't be much more of a challenge to do the same out to 500 yards with normal optics or irons. I can only imagine how useful this round would be for longer range work when combined with some sort of BDC reticle and a skilled distance shooter. Unfortunately, I'm not one of those skilled long range shooters. Nonetheless, this still appears to be an impressive load for defensive use and therein lies my interest. We are so lucky to be living in this age of firearms and ammunition innovation. I can't wait to see where innovation leads us in the coming years. You're welcome sir. The more I've dug into the ballistics of various different 5.56mm and .223 loads, the 50 yard zero works best for my needs; scoped and iron sight rifles alike. |
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Posted: 11/17/2014 4:04:38 PM EDT
[#39]
Feel free to contact [email protected] before you do that again - Eric802
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Posted: 11/18/2014 7:53:29 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've been trying to find this round (or even the regular MK) in stock at a place will ship to me. But no luck. And every gun shop I've been to... I ask if they carry Black Hills 77gr. MK or TMK and they look at me like I'm an alien. They've never heard of this round before. Hard to find! As posted earlier - and he's in CA as well (no idea what your state's shipping laws are though). https://www.thefinalimage.com/black-hills-5-56mm-77-gr-tmk-tipped-matchking-box-of-50.html |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 11:10:56 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From the ballistic gel image.... you can see that the bullet frags... it just starts earlier because of the tip being forced into the bullet. This bullet is designed from the get go to work like that..... not to mention the big increase in BC. Rather than relying on the OTM / fragmenting design of the Mk 262 77 SMK... remember that bullet was designed to meet the rules of war....and a reliable HP is a big No-No in those rules. In those rules the Mk 262 was allowed because the OTM part just aided accuracy. This bullet is pretty much the pinnacle of soft target 77gr bullet designs... ( IMHO... note SOFT TARGET ) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The tip initiates expansion, like an AMax, instead of relying on the possibility of fragmentation. So the tip turns a Mk262 (normally) fragmenting round into an expanding round?  From the ballistic gel image.... you can see that the bullet frags... it just starts earlier because of the tip being forced into the bullet. This bullet is designed from the get go to work like that..... not to mention the big increase in BC. Rather than relying on the OTM / fragmenting design of the Mk 262 77 SMK... remember that bullet was designed to meet the rules of war....and a reliable HP is a big No-No in those rules. In those rules the Mk 262 was allowed because the OTM part just aided accuracy. This bullet is pretty much the pinnacle of soft target 77gr bullet designs... ( IMHO... note SOFT TARGET ) Actually America never signed on with the Hague convention. We just chose to abide by it, but in not signing on with it, gave us the option to do what we want, if and when we choose too. And from my understanding we are beginning to think about expanding small munitions, more and more. The argument that it's inhumane is retarded anyway. Faster kill = more humane, and more effective at stopping the threat. Were not in conventional warfare now days where there's going to be 2-3 guys to assist a wounded soldier...creating more targets. So when we shoot and hit the "bad guy" we want his ass out of the fight right then and there. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 4:55:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As posted earlier - and he's in CA as well (no idea what your state's shipping laws are though). https://www.thefinalimage.com/black-hills-5-56mm-77-gr-tmk-tipped-matchking-box-of-50.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've been trying to find this round (or even the regular MK) in stock at a place will ship to me. But no luck. And every gun shop I've been to... I ask if they carry Black Hills 77gr. MK or TMK and they look at me like I'm an alien. They've never heard of this round before. Hard to find! As posted earlier - and he's in CA as well (no idea what your state's shipping laws are though). https://www.thefinalimage.com/black-hills-5-56mm-77-gr-tmk-tipped-matchking-box-of-50.html Their shipping is insane. I wanted to buy 100 rounds to test out, but they wanted nearly $30 to get it to me. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 6:14:42 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Their shipping is insane. I wanted to buy 100 rounds to test out, but they wanted nearly $30 to get it to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've been trying to find this round (or even the regular MK) in stock at a place will ship to me. But no luck. And every gun shop I've been to... I ask if they carry Black Hills 77gr. MK or TMK and they look at me like I'm an alien. They've never heard of this round before. Hard to find! As posted earlier - and he's in CA as well (no idea what your state's shipping laws are though). https://www.thefinalimage.com/black-hills-5-56mm-77-gr-tmk-tipped-matchking-box-of-50.html Their shipping is insane. I wanted to buy 100 rounds to test out, but they wanted nearly $30 to get it to me. I'd contact him directly and ask for a better shipping quote. I bought 200 rounds + 3 Pmags from him and the shipping was closer to $20, and I live further east than you. ETA: I made my purchase initially through Gunbroker if that makes any difference...he's "jcmtfi" on Gunbroker. |
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Posted: 11/20/2014 7:36:31 PM EDT
[#44]
Folks, I don't want to lock this down but we are getting pretty far afield from the tech aspect of this round. Let's stay away from the availability/pricing discussions.
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Posted: 12/12/2014 6:50:32 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Folks, I don't want to lock this down but we are getting pretty far afield from the tech aspect of this round. Let's stay away from the availability/pricing discussions. Are there an issues with the way M193 performs on soft targets at SD ranges? No Is the TMK designed for barriers? NO Until there is independently funded data to suggest otherwise, assume TMK performs as abysmally as any other 22 at longer ranges. May have potential as a Match bullet. Did I miss anything? TTC |
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Posted: 12/12/2014 7:38:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are there an issues with the way M193 performs on soft targets at SD ranges? No Is the TMK designed for barriers? NO Until there is independently funded data to suggest otherwise, assume TMK performs as abysmally as any other 22 at longer ranges. May have potential as a Match bullet. Did I miss anything? TTC Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Folks, I don't want to lock this down but we are getting pretty far afield from the tech aspect of this round. Let's stay away from the availability/pricing discussions. Are there an issues with the way M193 performs on soft targets at SD ranges? No Is the TMK designed for barriers? NO Until there is independently funded data to suggest otherwise, assume TMK performs as abysmally as any other 22 at longer ranges. May have potential as a Match bullet. Did I miss anything? TTC Quoting Jeff from Black Hills posting on TOS: "The TMK design was developed for improved BC and to decrease yaw dependence. It accomplishes both goals. By reducing yaw dependence, the Temporary Cavity is moved essentially to the front of the test block, rather than 2-3 inches deep which is typical with the 77 OTM design. OTM bullets, upon hitting gel (or similar material) will penetrate some depth before going into a yaw. If the velocity is high enough when that happens, the bullet will fragment, and a significant cavity forms. With the addition of the tip, the bullet does not have to yaw for reliable performance. The cavity starts nearly immediately. This improves reliability of performance, and reduces the chance of over penetration. Our goals were more reliable performance and better BC. We had no thought to degree or direction of fragmentation. Some degree of fragmentation just happens, even on most expanding bullets, but it was not an intended design feature. We are however very pleased with the degree of performance that resulted from the TMK design. " I will be interesting to see more end-user data as the round becomes more widely available. |
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Posted: 12/12/2014 11:59:48 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
as the round becomes more widely available. Black Hills really needs a distribution scheme that's compatible with the 21st century 
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Posted: 12/13/2014 1:40:47 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoting Jeff from Black Hills posting on TOS: "The TMK design was developed for improved BC and to decrease yaw dependence. It accomplishes both goals. By reducing yaw dependence, the Temporary Cavity is moved essentially to the front of the test block, rather than 2-3 inches deep which is typical with the 77 OTM design. OTM bullets, upon hitting gel (or similar material) will penetrate some depth before going into a yaw. If the velocity is high enough when that happens, the bullet will fragment, and a significant cavity forms. With the addition of the tip, the bullet does not have to yaw for reliable performance. The cavity starts nearly immediately. This improves reliability of performance, and reduces the chance of over penetration. Our goals were more reliable performance and better BC. We had no thought to degree or direction of fragmentation. Some degree of fragmentation just happens, even on most expanding bullets, but it was not an intended design feature. We are however very pleased with the degree of performance that resulted from the TMK design. " I will be interesting to see more end-user data as the round becomes more widely available. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Folks, I don't want to lock this down but we are getting pretty far afield from the tech aspect of this round. Let's stay away from the availability/pricing discussions. Are there an issues with the way M193 performs on soft targets at SD ranges? No Is the TMK designed for barriers? NO Until there is independently funded data to suggest otherwise, assume TMK performs as abysmally as any other 22 at longer ranges. May have potential as a Match bullet. Did I miss anything? TTC Quoting Jeff from Black Hills posting on TOS: "The TMK design was developed for improved BC and to decrease yaw dependence. It accomplishes both goals. By reducing yaw dependence, the Temporary Cavity is moved essentially to the front of the test block, rather than 2-3 inches deep which is typical with the 77 OTM design. OTM bullets, upon hitting gel (or similar material) will penetrate some depth before going into a yaw. If the velocity is high enough when that happens, the bullet will fragment, and a significant cavity forms. With the addition of the tip, the bullet does not have to yaw for reliable performance. The cavity starts nearly immediately. This improves reliability of performance, and reduces the chance of over penetration. Our goals were more reliable performance and better BC. We had no thought to degree or direction of fragmentation. Some degree of fragmentation just happens, even on most expanding bullets, but it was not an intended design feature. We are however very pleased with the degree of performance that resulted from the TMK design. " I will be interesting to see more end-user data as the round becomes more widely available. I've seen unreleased gel shots for velocities down to 1900fps. I've replaced my Hornady 5.56 75gr tap ammo with tmk as my go to home defense ammo if that says anything. |
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Posted: 12/13/2014 4:49:21 AM EDT
[#49]
Any autoglass tests yet?
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Posted: 12/13/2014 11:29:24 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are there an issues with the way M193 performs on soft targets at SD ranges? No Is the TMK designed for barriers? NO Until there is independently funded data to suggest otherwise, assume TMK performs as abysmally as any other 22 at longer ranges. May have potential as a Match bullet. Did I miss anything? TTC Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Folks, I don't want to lock this down but we are getting pretty far afield from the tech aspect of this round. Let's stay away from the availability/pricing discussions. Are there an issues with the way M193 performs on soft targets at SD ranges? No Is the TMK designed for barriers? NO Until there is independently funded data to suggest otherwise, assume TMK performs as abysmally as any other 22 at longer ranges. May have potential as a Match bullet. Did I miss anything? TTC Given that your first assertion is wrong, yes. Please read the FAQs. |
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