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Posted: 2/12/2015 1:42:39 AM EDT
[#1]
Forgot to mention that the Tavor is also a piston system. This is a good option if you also want a bullpup piston. Keep on forgetting to mention this gun, and now this gun is much better with the Geissele trigger replacement pack. Realize that Tavor is not an AR piston.
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Posted: 2/13/2015 9:17:29 PM EDT
[#2]
I have owned Adams Arms, POF, Barrett, LWRC, and Robinson Arms Piston AR's (well if you can call Robarms an AR). Barrett is by far the best designed piston system of the bunch. I have never owned or shot one, but if the PWS is truly long stroke system then there are definite benefits to be had there. But from the PWS photo's I've seen, the Barrett system is still a much simpler design. Even though Barrett is a short stroke, I also feel it is the most "AK-like". Just for some perspective, I sold my XCR and my LWRC M6A2. I still have a POF 308, Adams Arms and two Barrett REC7's.
Please note: I am a recovering member of the Church Of LWRCentology. It's a decently designed and reliable rifle, but a little overly cultic in its following for whatever reason. |
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Posted: 2/14/2015 6:03:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have owned Adams Arms, POF, Barrett, LWRC, and Robinson Arms Piston AR's (well if you can call Robarms an AR). Barrett is by far the best designed piston system of the bunch. I have never owned or shot one, but if the PWS is truly long stroke system then there are definite benefits to be had there. But from the PWS photo's I've seen, the Barrett system is still a much simpler design. Even though Barrett is a short stroke, I also feel it is the most "AK-like". Just for some perspective, I sold my XCR and my LWRC M6A2. I still have a POF 308, Adams Arms and two Barrett REC7's. Please note: I am a recovering member of the Church Of LWRCentology. It's a decently designed and reliable rifle, but a little overly cultic in its following for whatever reason. All of the piston followers are a bit "cultic" like in their following of the product. From the PWS, to the Adams Arms and LWRC. |
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Posted: 2/14/2015 2:02:19 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have owned Adams Arms, POF, Barrett, LWRC, and Robinson Arms Piston AR's (well if you can call Robarms an AR). Barrett is by far the best designed piston system of the bunch. I have never owned or shot one, but if the PWS is truly long stroke system then there are definite benefits to be had there. But from the PWS photo's I've seen, the Barrett system is still a much simpler design. Even though Barrett is a short stroke, I also feel it is the most "AK-like". Just for some perspective, I sold my XCR and my LWRC M6A2. I still have a POF 308, Adams Arms and two Barrett REC7's. Please note: I am a recovering member of the Church Of LWRCentology. It's a decently designed and reliable rifle, but a little overly cultic in its following for whatever reason. Have you compared the Colt 6940P to the Barrett REC7? |
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Posted: 2/14/2015 8:13:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All of the piston followers are a bit "cultic" like in their following of the product. From the PWS, to the Adams Arms and LWRC. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have owned Adams Arms, POF, Barrett, LWRC, and Robinson Arms Piston AR's (well if you can call Robarms an AR). Barrett is by far the best designed piston system of the bunch. I have never owned or shot one, but if the PWS is truly long stroke system then there are definite benefits to be had there. But from the PWS photo's I've seen, the Barrett system is still a much simpler design. Even though Barrett is a short stroke, I also feel it is the most "AK-like". Just for some perspective, I sold my XCR and my LWRC M6A2. I still have a POF 308, Adams Arms and two Barrett REC7's. Please note: I am a recovering member of the Church Of LWRCentology. It's a decently designed and reliable rifle, but a little overly cultic in its following for whatever reason. All of the piston followers are a bit "cultic" like in their following of the product. From the PWS, to the Adams Arms and LWRC. I've also noticed it comes and goes in cycles. LWRC , PWS, and AA are the predominant ones I've observed. |
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Posted: 2/14/2015 8:55:12 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you compared the Colt 6940P to the Barrett REC7? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have owned Adams Arms, POF, Barrett, LWRC, and Robinson Arms Piston AR's (well if you can call Robarms an AR). Barrett is by far the best designed piston system of the bunch. I have never owned or shot one, but if the PWS is truly long stroke system then there are definite benefits to be had there. But from the PWS photo's I've seen, the Barrett system is still a much simpler design. Even though Barrett is a short stroke, I also feel it is the most "AK-like". Just for some perspective, I sold my XCR and my LWRC M6A2. I still have a POF 308, Adams Arms and two Barrett REC7's. Please note: I am a recovering member of the Church Of LWRCentology. It's a decently designed and reliable rifle, but a little overly cultic in its following for whatever reason. Have you compared the Colt 6940P to the Barrett REC7? Sorry I haven't. I just looked at photo's and it looks similar to Barrett. Like I said, the Barrett is the most "AK-like and has the fewest parts. It consists of the adjustment plug, op rod with spring, and single piece carrier like everyone else. The piston has the concentric grooves around the head just like the AK to allow fouling a place to migrate out and even though you can't see it, the gas block also has the longitudinal flutes like the AK Piston "block". And of course it has a military grade CHF barrel. The only drawback with the Barrett is that the gas port on the barrel is in a non-standard location. 
If you want to see a detail of it go to 17:00 minute mark in this video. Ronnie Barrett is salt of the earth and you have to respect a man that is willing to loose business, refusing to sell his 50 to California law enforcement, because of his strong belief in the 2nd Amendment. 
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Posted: 2/14/2015 10:34:34 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have both the LWRC M6A2 SPR and the Ruger SR 556. Both needed new triggers which were replaced with Geissele SSA-E triggers. Surprisingly the SR 556 turned out to be more accurate than the LWRC. 5 shot 100 yard groups with the SR 556 averaged 0.6 moa, With the LWRC averaging about 0.75 moa. I have had the SR556 and now the SR556E. I like the E handguard much better and the non chrome bore does not really bother me. It is more accurate than any other AR I have ever had. I put a SSA in it and am very pleased. You get a lot of gun with the Ruger providing you are ok with the two available styles of handguards that they offered. |
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Posted: 2/15/2015 11:48:02 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even though Barrett is a short stroke, I also feel it is the most "AK-like". . Please look at your own picture of the Barret system then go to -- PWS AK like Bolt -- and notice the actual AK bolt along with the PWS bolt and explain to me how the Barret is the AK bolt type The AK op rod is attached directly to the top of the BCG and the PWS op rod is attached to the top of the BCG. The Barret is not So, I must be missing a point because the only AR that has an AKish piston system seems to be the PWS |
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Posted: 2/15/2015 6:43:56 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please look at your own picture of the Barret system then go to -- PWS AK like Bolt -- and notice the actual AK bolt along with the PWS bolt and explain to me how the Barret is the AK bolt type The AK op rod is attached directly to the top of the BCG and the PWS op rod is attached to the top of the BCG. The Barret is not So, I must be missing a point because the only AR that has an AKish piston system seems to be the PWS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Even though Barrett is a short stroke, I also feel it is the most "AK-like". . Please look at your own picture of the Barret system then go to -- PWS AK like Bolt -- and notice the actual AK bolt along with the PWS bolt and explain to me how the Barret is the AK bolt type The AK op rod is attached directly to the top of the BCG and the PWS op rod is attached to the top of the BCG. The Barret is not So, I must be missing a point because the only AR that has an AKish piston system seems to be the PWS ARAK 21 |
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Posted: 2/15/2015 10:11:52 PM EDT
[#10]
I would consider the Sig 516. I love mine
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Posted: 2/16/2015 1:34:11 AM EDT
[#11]
My vote:
Adcor Bear PWS BRA |
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Posted: 2/16/2015 3:57:44 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please look at your own picture of the Barret system then go to -- PWS AK like Bolt -- and notice the actual AK bolt along with the PWS bolt and explain to me how the Barret is the AK bolt type The AK op rod is attached directly to the top of the BCG and the PWS op rod is attached to the top of the BCG. The Barret is not So, I must be missing a point because the only AR that has an AKish piston system seems to be the PWS Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Even though Barrett is a short stroke, I also feel it is the most "AK-like". . Please look at your own picture of the Barret system then go to -- PWS AK like Bolt -- and notice the actual AK bolt along with the PWS bolt and explain to me how the Barret is the AK bolt type The AK op rod is attached directly to the top of the BCG and the PWS op rod is attached to the top of the BCG. The Barret is not So, I must be missing a point because the only AR that has an AKish piston system seems to be the PWS Yeah, you missed the point. Go back and read my previous posts. I have no experience with the PWS. I was speaking about the piston systems I have personally owned. According to PWS marketing, It is the only long stroke piston out there. The only difference between it and the Barrett is that the op rod is attached to the BCG. Does the PWS gas block have the AK type flutes? |
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Posted: 2/21/2015 1:33:24 PM EDT
[#13]
I love my POFs, I like them so much I have 3 and counting [8D
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Posted: 2/21/2015 4:30:10 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love my POFs, I like them so much I have 3 and counting [8D You need to diversify then. Having 3 of one gun is boring. I do have 3 PWS though, 116, 216 and a Diablo :) Never owned a POF, seems to be a lot of negative feedback about their reliability and tolerances. |
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Posted: 2/22/2015 6:20:51 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You need to diversify then. Having 3 of one gun is boring. I do have 3 PWS though, 116, 216 and a Diablo :) Never owned a POF, seems to be a lot of negative feedback about their reliability and tolerances. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I love my POFs, I like them so much I have 3 and counting [8D You need to diversify then. Having 3 of one gun is boring. I do have 3 PWS though, 116, 216 and a Diablo :) Never owned a POF, seems to be a lot of negative feedback about their reliability and tolerances. No way buddy, that was there old Gen1 and Gen2 models that had issues, there Gen3 and Gen4 models are the shiznit, there piston system is the best as far as im concerned, just a rod and a piston, no springs or collars to break or fail, the lest moving parts u have the better, and I love the ease of cleaning the POF, 10 min or less to strip clean and reassemble, and 3 of the same gun is not boring, its smart thinking when it comes to maintenance and repair, all of the same spare/backup parts rod and piston will fix my 3 different calibers from the same manufacturer , 556,6.8 and my 6.5 not just 1 or 2 of them, it saves alot of money and hassles in the long run, I also have 2 Seekins precision lowers, 1 is being built as a dedicated 22lr, and not sure what im going to do with the other Seekins lower yet, it will most likely have a POF or PWS upper on it when its done, again there is nothing boring about any AR15, im in love with them, im addicted to them  , I have 5 and counting  ..........
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Posted: 2/23/2015 9:04:43 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You need to diversify then. Having 3 of one gun is boring. I do have 3 PWS though, 116, 216 and a Diablo :) Never owned a POF, seems to be a lot of negative feedback about their reliability and tolerances. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I love my POFs, I like them so much I have 3 and counting [8D You need to diversify then. Having 3 of one gun is boring. I do have 3 PWS though, 116, 216 and a Diablo :) Never owned a POF, seems to be a lot of negative feedback about their reliability and tolerances. Sorry but I feel the need to point out the hypocrisy in telling someone their collection is too singular when yours is as well. That being said I've heard overall mostly good from POF owners. Having owned the bush master pof based system I can say I never had issues. Aside from all that where in Ks are you? Pm me so we can link up and shoot some. I have a few other arfcommers I shoot with and you're more than welcome to join us. |
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Posted: 2/23/2015 5:33:49 PM EDT
[#17]
In no particular order:
LMT LWRC PWS Barrett I happen to prefer LWRC, but I'm not going to tell you they're the best. ANY of the above will provide outstanding service. Hell, my CMMG piston was an outstanding performer. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 2:45:31 PM EDT
[#18]
AA is nice and gives you quite a lot of customization options.
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Posted: 2/25/2015 3:38:05 PM EDT
[#19]
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Anyone seen the ARAK21? Think ak upper with ar lower gas piston 5.56 or 300 black or 7.62x39 What questions can we assist with? Long-stroke, adjustable gas piston w/ quick change barrels. 
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Posted: 2/25/2015 11:58:56 PM EDT
[#20]
I'll cast my vote and say sig sauer 516. Simply because it comes in under 2k, breaks down into its core components in 5 minutes, easy to clean, and is on the lighter side, 7.3 lbs, around $1500 on average, and you can put the$500 toward optics or ammo
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Posted: 2/26/2015 7:20:32 PM EDT
[#21]
In today's deflated market a Sig 516 is a $1200.00 gun. If you are paying 1500 you have overpaid IMO
At $1200.00 I believe the 516 is an excellent value and I have had 2 516s and they were both flawless. One can find a PWS MK114/116 Mod 1 for $1600.00 and also IMO that is the best dollar for dollar AR piston or DI one can buy. If someone makes a better one I will happily switch but by that I mean in my hands no IYO |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 9:10:10 PM EDT
[#22]
LWRCI if for no other reason than their truly ambi controls and their ultra compact stock. Are they more accurate than anything else with a piston? For most people, yes. Are they more reliable than most other systems? For most people, yes. Are they worse balanced than most any other system? for most people, yes. How ever lets look at the undeniables. Their stock system is the shortest. Their lowers are 100% ambidextrous. Their customer service is among the best. Those are advantages you cannot deny. Personally I have come to a point where I don't give a fuck about weight and balance, what drives the BCG, or who makes what. Guys who do are fucking splitting cunt hairs. I like things that work. Personally I would try to find an M6SL with the IC lower and call it a day based on your price point.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 9:26:29 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LWRCI if for no other reason than their truly ambi controls and their ultra compact stock. Are they more accurate than anything else with a piston? For most people, yes. Are they more reliable than most other systems? For most people, yes. Are they worse balanced than most any other system? for most people, yes. How ever lets look at the undeniables. Their stock system is the shortest. Their lowers are 100% ambidextrous. Their customer service is among the best. Those are advantages you cannot deny. Personally I have come to a point where I don't give a fuck about weight and balance, what drives the BCG, or who makes what. Guys who do are fucking splitting cunt hairs. I like things that work. Personally I would try to find an M6SL with the IC lower and call it a day based on your price point. Well said. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 11:35:09 AM EDT
[#24]
LWRCI does make a fine rifle ( and I would like to own one for sake of loving all AR's) but PWS covers all those bases but the "100% ambidextrous" and typically are less money! And if looking at "undeniables" pws from there brake to there buffer system has features that I believe are also unmatched and well thought out. I'm not sure how 3 things that are very huge in an ar-15's make up (weight, balance, and what drives the bcg) are splitting hairs....those are some of the most important things base on what an AR was designed for.....weight and balance effect speed of operation and how quick you get back on target, and what drives the bcg is one of the largest factors in reliability which is why a lot of have chosen a piston gun to begin with! The reason it is hard for people to agree with piston/DI argrument is that design wise DI rifles are all made the same (parts quality varies but design is the same) and with a piston rifle all designs are different and that difference is what makes not all piston rifles better/created equal but just the ones that have the right design. LWRCI has a great design but I don't believe it is as good as the pws...and maybe I'm splitting hairs but in those split hairs is the real differences! |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 11:49:01 AM EDT
[#25]
LMT....without hesitation.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 1:56:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LWRCI does make a fine rifle ( and I would like to own one for sake of loving all AR's) but PWS covers all those bases but the "100% ambidextrous" and typically are less money! And if looking at "undeniables" pws from there brake to there buffer system has features that I believe are also unmatched and well thought out. I'm not sure how 3 things that are very huge in an ar-15's make up (weight, balance, and what drives the bcg) are splitting hairs....those are some of the most important things base on what an AR was designed for.....weight and balance effect speed of operation and how quick you get back on target, and what drives the bcg is one of the largest factors in reliability which is why a lot of have chosen a piston gun to begin with! The reason it is hard for people to agree with piston/DI argrument is that design wise DI rifles are all made the same (parts quality varies but design is the same) and with a piston rifle all designs are different and that difference is what makes not all piston rifles better/created equal but just the ones that have the right design. LWRCI has a great design but I don't believe it is as good as the pws...and maybe I'm splitting hairs but in those split hairs is the real differences! I respectfully disagree. In the long run if it goes bang and functions every time I pull the trigger it doesn't matter what drives it. LWRC and PWS reliability as a whole is the same. Let's not bullshit about this by taking a magnifying glass to different piston ARs. At the end of the day EVERY piston rifle I have shot or seen others shooting a majority of the time has been reliable. So yes I do think splitting cunt hairs is a perfect description of the way I'm beginning to feel about this. I remember when the piston boards here used to have a good diversity. Now 98% of what I see posted here is PWS this PWS that. What happened to the days where I could come on here and not only see PWS but, AA, Barret, ADCOR, LWRC, POF, Osprey, Sig, Ruger, and much more on a REGULAR basis. I swear this place has become white bread in the past month and not only does it frustrate me but also deeply saddens me. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 1:20:40 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I respectfully disagree. In the long run if it goes bang and functions every time I pull the trigger it doesn't matter what drives it. LWRC and PWS reliability as a whole is the same. Let's not bullshit about this by taking a magnifying glass to different piston ARs. At the end of the day EVERY piston rifle I have shot or seen others shooting a majority of the time has been reliable. So yes I do think splitting cunt hairs is a perfect description of the way I'm beginning to feel about this. I remember when the piston boards here used to have a good diversity. Now 98% of what I see posted here is PWS this PWS that. What happened to the days where I could come on here and not only see PWS but, AA, Barret, ADCOR, LWRC, POF, Osprey, Sig, Ruger, and much more on a REGULAR basis. I swear this place has become white bread in the past month and not only does it frustrate me but also deeply saddens me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
LWRCI does make a fine rifle ( and I would like to own one for sake of loving all AR's) but PWS covers all those bases but the "100% ambidextrous" and typically are less money! And if looking at "undeniables" pws from there brake to there buffer system has features that I believe are also unmatched and well thought out. I'm not sure how 3 things that are very huge in an ar-15's make up (weight, balance, and what drives the bcg) are splitting hairs....those are some of the most important things base on what an AR was designed for.....weight and balance effect speed of operation and how quick you get back on target, and what drives the bcg is one of the largest factors in reliability which is why a lot of have chosen a piston gun to begin with! The reason it is hard for people to agree with piston/DI argrument is that design wise DI rifles are all made the same (parts quality varies but design is the same) and with a piston rifle all designs are different and that difference is what makes not all piston rifles better/created equal but just the ones that have the right design. LWRCI has a great design but I don't believe it is as good as the pws...and maybe I'm splitting hairs but in those split hairs is the real differences! I respectfully disagree. In the long run if it goes bang and functions every time I pull the trigger it doesn't matter what drives it. LWRC and PWS reliability as a whole is the same. Let's not bullshit about this by taking a magnifying glass to different piston ARs. At the end of the day EVERY piston rifle I have shot or seen others shooting a majority of the time has been reliable. So yes I do think splitting cunt hairs is a perfect description of the way I'm beginning to feel about this. I remember when the piston boards here used to have a good diversity. Now 98% of what I see posted here is PWS this PWS that. What happened to the days where I could come on here and not only see PWS but, AA, Barret, ADCOR, LWRC, POF, Osprey, Sig, Ruger, and much more on a REGULAR basis. I swear this place has become white bread in the past month and not only does it frustrate me but also deeply saddens me. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 6:15:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep I stopped posting in here for a while because people dick suck the cheaper options and deny the intangibles. Not to dereail this thread by getting into a piston vs DI discussion I do agree with this point. |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 9:06:26 AM EDT
[#29]
I don't get the idea the way to make your "brand" seem better is to trash others.
I do believe the positive attributes of PWS have elevated its standing on this forum as more people make the comparison and like the way the unique type of piston operates. While i now have 3 MK114s I do like many other pistons (and DI) and my preference for PWS does not diminish my admiration of the many great rifles being made. It reminds me of religion where a guy can not feel comfortable about his belief unless he rags on you and tries to make you feel inferior. Makes me wonder who he is trying to convince. IMO he is the one who questions himself but I digress |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 3:29:18 PM EDT
[#30]
I know this is kind of off topic because of there price$$$$$ but, can anybody tell me what the FREAK! makes HK worth so much money, how is there piston system that much better then LWRC, POF, PWS, ect, ect, to warrant there price??, over the past 6months ive seen some HK uppers being sold on GB for crazy amounts of money, the last one I seen was a HK 10.5" upper I think it was there new style and the last bid I seen on it was for over 7000 dollars
 and it still had 3 days to go, I saw that and thought to myself that guy has got to be crazy paying that much for just the upper!!
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Posted: 3/5/2015 7:39:30 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know this is kind of off topic because of there price$$$$$ but, can anybody tell me what the FREAK! makes HK worth so much money, how is there piston system that much better then LWRC, POF, PWS, ect, ect, to warrant there price??, over the past 6months ive seen some HK uppers being sold on GB for crazy amounts of money, the last one I seen was a HK 10.5" upper I think it was there new style and the last bid I seen on it was for over 7000 dollars and it still had 3 days to go, I saw that and thought to myself that guy has got to be crazy paying that much for just the upper!!If someone is paying $7k for an upper they're really really stupid. What makes them better......NOTHING.....except it was publicized that ST6 used them on the OBL raid. That's about it. |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 7:40:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know this is kind of off topic because of there price$$$$$ but, can anybody tell me what the FREAK! makes HK worth so much money, how is there piston system that much better then LWRC, POF, PWS, ect, ect, to warrant there price??, over the past 6months ive seen some HK uppers being sold on GB for crazy amounts of money, the last one I seen was a HK 10.5" upper I think it was there new style and the last bid I seen on it was for over 7000 dollars and it still had 3 days to go, I saw that and thought to myself that guy has got to be crazy paying that much for just the upper!!HK is a great product, I think some of it is name, some of it is they concentrate more on military and spill over to the civilian market. Is their product that far superior, that is up for debate. |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 10:08:57 PM EDT
[#33]
No complaints from a middy 16" Huldra (AA piston). 100% reliable and as accurate as my DI's. Cost for complete upper was $600. Recoil is the same as 16" middy BCM.
I know that's only a sample size of one, but it just plain works and hits what I aim at. For a fighting rifle, are we really worried about fractional differences in groups? |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 12:01:39 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HK is a great product, I think some of it is name, some of it is they concentrate more on military and spill over to the civilian market. Is their product that far superior, that is up for debate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I know this is kind of off topic because of there price$$$$$ but, can anybody tell me what the FREAK! makes HK worth so much money, how is there piston system that much better then LWRC, POF, PWS, ect, ect, to warrant there price??, over the past 6months ive seen some HK uppers being sold on GB for crazy amounts of money, the last one I seen was a HK 10.5" upper I think it was there new style and the last bid I seen on it was for over 7000 dollars and it still had 3 days to go, I saw that and thought to myself that guy has got to be crazy paying that much for just the upper!!HK is a great product, I think some of it is name, some of it is they concentrate more on military and spill over to the civilian market. Is their product that far superior, that is up for debate. No it's them believing their name is worth as much as it is when it isn't. |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 12:12:51 AM EDT
[#35]
C'mon now... sure they're a bit expensive, but you guys really think the HK isn't one of the best, if not the best piston AR platform?
If price were the same, would you really turn down the HK MR556? I'm seriously tempted to get one and have the barrel reprofiled/cut down to 10.4" myself. |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 10:17:13 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
C'mon now... sure they're a bit expensive, but you guys really think the HK isn't one of the best, if not the best piston AR platform? If price were the same, would you really turn down the HK MR556? I'm seriously tempted to get one and have the barrel reprofiled/cut down to 10.4" myself. This will be easy. At the same price the PWS is still, IMO superior to the HK so I would still buy the PWS if HK ever decided to remove the "I have a German name so can charge more for the same quality" badge I do not believe there is any quality difference of note between HK, PWS, LWRC, LMT, Barret etc etc and I am sure 99% of buyers of any of these well made products will be delighted by them.. For those who buy an HK because they intend to sit at the bench and shoot the heavier barrel may be a better choice. For those that run close quarter drills and/or will be walking around with their AR the PWS is lighter better balanced and that makes it, IMO, the best for non bench shooters but that is again IMO. If you have a different opinion than you are correct because we all get to choose what meets our desires. I retired as a photojournalist and when I was a photog I was not a camera buff. It was about getting the image on film (dating myself) not the cool toy aspect. An M4 to me is a short range weapon that eliminates the weaknesses of handguns while allowing a rifle to be lighter and able to be deployed quickly and except for concealment all the requirements of a pistol except with pinpoint accuracy capable of multiple targeting in seconds with optics and large ammunition on gun. Nothing does that better than a PWS and nothing that does it as well is as light (except DI ARs and they do not have the stay clean quality I want) But, they are not the same price and considering I will add a Geissele enhanced and EOTech EXPS3 and updated stocks/grips to any of the M4 pistons with the PWS I can buy all of those and still have spent less than the stock MR556 or most others. That was certainly one of the easiest questions I have answered here on piston ARs. |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 11:17:59 AM EDT
[#37]
No rifle is perfect, but as of now, the PWS is in my opinion the BEST piston upper.
As an owner of a PWS MK110 MOD1 and a HK MR556. The PWS is better because it is lighter, smaller rail system (allowing me to hold the rifle better, so better controllability), HK rail could be longer for mounting lights, the long piston system is easy to disassemble and it honestly seems like a better design, I like the one moving part of the long piston vs the multiple impacts and movement in the HK piston design. the upper receiver has a normal height rail, the PWS feels more like a DI gun (which i was used to), the HK grip is stupid large, the PWS has 4 piston settings which make it awesome with cans. the MR556 semi carrier is in my opinion a worse carrier than the PWS or HK416 or KAC (nothing to prove this, i just have more confidence in the PWS suppressed). PWS bolt carrier (new one) is slicker than HK. I don't like how HK thinks civilians should get a rifle thats worse than the 416. the HK has a STUPID tool removal/reassembly of rifle and upper, I've never had a single hiccup with the PWS and its the gun I bring out when I NEED it to work. it feeds the cheap russian crap that some of my DI guns won't. I honestly think that HK only sells so many guns to civilians because the SEALs and military units are seen using them. HK (like surefire) does a great job of making people believe they are the best simply because some guys use them. HK is a great rifle and has never failed me, but its not the best and its not my favorite. Until my PWS fails me, I would honesty take a PWS out any day over the HK even if they were the same price. |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 8:38:15 PM EDT
[#38]
The LMT and its Monolithic upper just makes sense to me. It is heavier, but not by a lot, and I would like to see slimmer, modular rails such as the SLK8, but not enough for me pass on the piston. I can add optics where I like, and there is no shift between the rail and upper. Easy to switch barrels also, if that's your thing. PWS doesn't allow you to switch to a piston in 6.8 SPC.
PWS's are beautiful rifles, but my LMT is built like a tank. Maybe I'm just hard headed, but since I have only one rifle, this is it for me. Also, as far as it's piston system, it's dead simple too. I mean, the extra part is a spring on the piston. LMT's aren't the flavor of the month, but they are outstanding rifles. |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 11:28:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
C'mon now... sure they're a bit expensive, but you guys really think the HK isn't one of the best, if not the best piston AR platform? If price were the same, would you really turn down the HK MR556? I'm seriously tempted to get one and have the barrel reprofiled/cut down to 10.4" myself. Yes to both. The HK is nothing special. On top of that the magwell makes it so you can't use normal AR mags and a lot of parts between it and other ARs are not interchangeable. |
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Posted: 3/8/2015 3:30:52 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LWRCI if for no other reason than their truly ambi controls and their ultra compact stock. Are they more accurate than anything else with a piston? For most people, yes. Are they more reliable than most other systems? For most people, yes. Are they worse balanced than most any other system? for most people, yes. How ever lets look at the undeniables. Their stock system is the shortest. Their lowers are 100% ambidextrous. Their customer service is among the best. Those are advantages you cannot deny. Personally I have come to a point where I don't give a fuck about weight and balance, what drives the BCG, or who makes what. Guys who do are fucking splitting cunt hairs. I like things that work. Personally I would try to find an M6SL with the IC lower and call it a day based on your price point. POF had ambi controls before LWRC. POF also had the one piece bolt carrier and nitride barrel before LWRC. I was the proud owner of an M6A2 which was one of the first ones with the nitrided barrel but still had the two-piece bolt carrier. This was almost two years after I bought a POF 308 with both the nitride match barrel and one-piece carrier. |
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Posted: 3/8/2015 3:36:43 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HK is a great product, I think some of it is name, some of it is they concentrate more on military and spill over to the civilian market. Is their product that far superior, that is up for debate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I know this is kind of off topic because of there price$$$$$ but, can anybody tell me what the FREAK! makes HK worth so much money, how is there piston system that much better then LWRC, POF, PWS, ect, ect, to warrant there price??, over the past 6months ive seen some HK uppers being sold on GB for crazy amounts of money, the last one I seen was a HK 10.5" upper I think it was there new style and the last bid I seen on it was for over 7000 dollars and it still had 3 days to go, I saw that and thought to myself that guy has got to be crazy paying that much for just the upper!!HK is a great product, I think some of it is name, some of it is they concentrate more on military and spill over to the civilian market. Is their product that far superior, that is up for debate. Our SWAT team used MP5's and G3's pretty exclusively and I can tell you they both had hiccups regularly. The roller lock is not the be all end all. In their defense, they all had high round counts and were used extensively. However, when we transitioned to Colt AR-15's, the malfunctions went way down, even though we were still beating on them regularly. Oh and I drank the Koolaid and bought (10) of the HK "high reliability" AR mags for $55 a pop!!!!! Let's just say they are not even medium reliability. The springs gave out after a few hundred rounds. I couldn't give them away on gunbroker and I still have them. If you aren't LE or Military, I've heard HK customer service sucks a$$. |
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Posted: 3/8/2015 3:40:49 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
C'mon now... sure they're a bit expensive, but you guys really think the HK isn't one of the best, if not the best piston AR platform? If price were the same, would you really turn down the HK MR556? I'm seriously tempted to get one and have the barrel reprofiled/cut down to 10.4" myself. I used to believe this way until I started building AR's. There is nothing magic about a rifle built to mil-specs. My Noveske CHF, M249 steel chrome-lined barrel made by FN will easily surpass any barrel HK is turning out. I couldn't believe a chrome lined barrel could shoot XM193 through the same hole at 50 yards. Not sure what type of magic juju Noveske puts in their barrels, but they are well worth the $455 price of admission. |
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Posted: 3/8/2015 1:18:49 PM EDT
[#43]
Some people only wish to buy gear used in actual combat wether its better or not or good value or not this is why 416 uppers sell for insane prices
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Posted: 3/8/2015 1:26:00 PM EDT
[#44]
I have been following this discussion for a while and I have come to the conclusion that many people are missing the underlying point. That point is that there is no best piston driven AR for under or over $2000. I have also found that many people utilize selective portions of the information to justify their bias. This is called conformation bias, and it is a psychological response not an empirically driven conclusion. The short answer to the original question is that there is not, has not, and probably never will be a truly best overall piston driven rifle. The direction we must now go in is to honestly assess the strengths and weaknesses of each rifle as well as the price factor to determine an accurate picture of each rifle so people can make the right decision for what rifle fits their life.
I can not honestly give an accurate picture of every piston driven rifle as I am not familiar enough to do that successfully, however I do have sufficient knowledge to give a good starting point on several of the options available. These brands are in my experience as follows: the subsequent reviews will be done in individual posts. |
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Posted: 3/8/2015 1:26:32 PM EDT
[#45]
Adams Arms: The factory installed systems run quite well, and are serviceable for any purpose, however the individual kits can be hit or miss as people in many cases do not have the engineering ability to properly install the system. If you look at the multitude of companies that utilize an adams piston in their factory piston kit, the conclusion is quite clear that adams arms make a great rifle for the price. Many have said that quality of parts is not as high as some other brands, however the parts are quality made and are not comparable to any cheap crap. There are reasons for the lower price; the barrel is not hammer forged, the brand is not as flashy, and some of their early models were seen as finicky. Overall any new model one buys from them will work fine. Anyone interested needs to decide if they like the weight, balance, felt recoil, feel, and the aesthetics of their rifles.
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Posted: 3/8/2015 1:27:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Barrett Firearms: The rec7 is by all accounts a fantastic rifle, however their are very few options in regards to length and caliber. On the positive side many have said that their piston system is far and away the most robots of all that are available. I have seen on multiple occasions shooters put obscene amounts of rounds (over 1500) through these rifles in a day and these rifle do not even hiccup. All that being said these rifles can be very cost exclusive as the gen2 rifles are running in many cases over $2500, and I know many just can not justify spending that on a rifle when you can get top notch reliability for much less. There are a couple drawbacks to these rifle one being that it is hard to find one to put your hands on before you buy and the other being the very limited production of these rifles. The limited production affects a number of things, however none are more important than the difficulty to find replacement parts. To conclude any rifle that Barrett firearms makes is bound to be overbuilt to the nth degree and if one has the money or the justification to buy one then I believe they will be very pleased with the result.
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Posted: 3/8/2015 1:27:39 PM EDT
[#47]
H&K: I'm sorry but I have to follow my full belief and it will sound like I'm just bashing them and I probably am. HK is wildly to expensive for what they offer. I have seen the barrel they use and it is no doubt top notch in every way, however it is not considerably better than the other top notch barrels. Their system is very robust, however not even remotely worth the price they want for it. HK offers very few options for the MR556a1 (you can't buy the 416), and as in few I mean one. The mr556 doesn't even come chrome lined like the HK416. Even worse HK customer service is very similar to prison customer service as neither gives two shits what your problem is and they have no intention of helping you. In conclusion, I have not, would not, and will probably never buy an HK rifle.
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Posted: 3/8/2015 1:28:15 PM EDT
[#48]
LMT: I have a more limited experience with these, however I have only ever heard one comment against them, and that was in regards to the weight.These tend to be harder to find where I live in the south, so I just don't really see them. From what I have seen LMT makes everything like a freaking tank, and that has been their M.O. from the beginning. Much like Barrett LMT has very few options for their rifles and if you want one they really only come in a couple sizes and calibers. I welcome someone with a more complete knowledge to put forth a better account of the pros and cons of this rifle. Much like many other brands LMT piston driven rifles are very expensive.
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Posted: 3/8/2015 1:28:49 PM EDT
[#49]
LWRC: For some reason LWRC seems to be one of the most polarizing brands of piston driven rifles the world over, and for the life of me I do not know why. LWRC makes a great rifle with state of the art components; they use a cold hammer forged barrel that is treated with some form of nitrocarburization (don't ask me the specifics I'm not a chemist), their bolt carrier groups are nickel boron or nickel teflon treated (both treatments work great but I can't keep straight what company does which treatment), and their lower receivers are fully ambidextrous. One of the other great aspects of LWRC is the multitude of options they have for caliber, size and length (they have everything from pdws to patrol and precision rifles). All that being said LWRC is not without their own cons one of which being that the company was bought by Colt. I'm sorry I couldn't help myself I just don't like colt as I have had to deal with their customer service on three occasions and all were bad (worked at a Gun Shop for a while). On a more serious note of all the piston rifles LWRC does seem to have the most breakable little parts, which is not to say their rifles are fragile, but rather that the people that buy them use them and their system seems to have more small parts. Small parts always break, and that is in every rifle across the board. One thing to credit LWRC is that they make in my opinion the most aesthetically pleasing rifle sold today. Much like Barrett they can be cost exclusive as these rifles tend to cost exclusively over $2000 across the country. I have heard mixed reviews of their customer service, but most of the negative accounts I've heard in person I would judge that the purchaser was kind of a dick. My final judgement is that these rifles are great buys, however if I bought one I would also purchase an extra couple piston parts kits.
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Posted: 3/8/2015 1:31:04 PM EDT
[#50]
PWS: This company is mildly unique in that the piston system they use is a long stroke system much like the AK47 which is a departure from the more popular short stroke or tappet system that the large majority of companies utilize. PWS is one of the more popular brands, and among those with heavy brand recognition their rifles tend to cost slightly less, which is not to say their cheap as $1700 is not cheap. Some say the difference in price is in due part, because they use a button swaged barrel which is cheaper that a hammer forged barrel. Another possible reason for the difference in price is the inherit simplicity of a long stroke piston system. That system is really the hallmark of their sales, and by all accounts is does work quite well. In my experience with all the brands of rifles they all run very well, however many people that dislike PWS have stated that the lighter profile of their barrel makes it more likely to wear out faster. PWS proponents state that such a thing is not true. Most of them have never shot a rifle enough to even seen one wear out. In actuality the barrel wears in a similar manor to some of the chrome lined hammer forged barrels, because PWS utilizes a nitrocarburizing method very similar to what adams arms and LWRC uses. The reason that barrel treatment allows their barrels to wear slower is because it is considerably harder than chrome lining on the rockwell scale and the engineers I have spoken to stated that nitrocarburizing is more resistant to oxidation and chemical corrosion. I would state that LWRC has really the best combination of barrel production and treatment with their nitrocarburized cold hammer forged barrel, but the barrel PWS uses will last well over the standard 10,000 rounds. . . tbc
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