Well now they can't do it anymore so I would say that it wasn't the
right thing to do as it served no other purpose than to fuck it it up
for everyone else.

 

I wish you guys would stop fucking complaining.........ruin what??? The fact that you guys were using a brace like a stock??........if you didnt see this coming down the pipe your either blind or an ignorant fool.  This is now probably the BEST thing that could happened to you all, SIG is now going to counter this ruling by the ATF and many others hopefully will start to do the same........instead of bitching about something you know was going to get pinched in the first place.........try placing your efforts and time on actually trying to bring to the ATFs attention that shouldering your pistol doesnt make it an SBR........Stop being fucking sheep........and stop with the poking the bear shit already, its fucking old and tired.


Rant over.

I'll admit, that certainly doesn't look good, well the least they could do is dress nicely and not wear their hats indoors and perhaps not carry AKs, and not carry them in a low ready position like they are ready to kill at any second. Its lik they went out of their way to weair their shabbiest clothes and shoes and to loo scraggly as possible

Yep, pretty much the pic you posted are analogs to this:
(icky image removed of gays gaying it up bigtime from one of those parades, but you can imagine well enough to get my point w/o having to look at the pic).

regrding the OC bill here in FL that went down a few years ago, I don't know how that had anyting to do w/ OC fishing events.  I dont' think those had much of any impact.  OC went down b/c big business put pressure on FL repubs arguing that it would scare away tourists.

yes, listen, I'm not trying to escalate, so if you insist that you are serious than I will take you at your word and leave it at that.  I just find it suspicious that there are suddenly numerous new accounts w/ less than 100 posts that are arguing that it is wrong to have "misused" the arm brace.

Ban thread

Added a little bit...

Well we were talking about the open carry issue posed on the proceeding page not the brace issue. Try to follow along, it makes your ranting look a bit less stupid.(but not by much)





 

And you are what's wrong with America. To not exercise your rights defined in the Bill of Rights is just foolish. No, I don't go parading around with open carry, but why shouldn't I be able to. I live in Florida and it's kinda hard to conceal carry sometimes here(lack of being able to wear heavier clothes). So why shouldn't I be to open carry when I go out if I needed to? How about you leave this forum and not exercise your right to free speech. Sometimes it doesn't make it right to open your mouth....f--k off

It's allowed to happen because nobody speaks up anymore.

I exercise my rights all the time. Open carry because its not always easy to conceal is totally different then open carry just to prove a point, especially when the people doing it don't even know what the point is.
When my state (CA) increasingly violated my rights I left and moved to a state that is more inline with my mindset. That's right I left a great high paying job and moved with no plans other than to rid myself of a tyrannical state government. I'm not sure why you don't have that same conviction but it is obvious that you don't. That's why you will always be a little sheep following along. Have fun with your sweaters in Florida. And it's spelled: Fuck off, you don't even have the conviction to say that outright.
 

Thanks, at least there are still some smart people here.



 

The only thing I commented on was the pic of the guy shooting the gun in his crotch - that was almost enough to make me a gun-banner.  And that's what I stated.  FYI I've been here since 2005 (different account - long story).  Read the thread and who responded to what before you comment from now on...  And quit being a snob when it comes to folks with low post counts - everybody here had low post count at some point in their history.

So, all the brace owners selling off scared, and silly posts waving the verbal Hawaiian good luck sign to the ATF does exactly what?

You can still shoot the pistol. They haven't taken it away, the ATF is just saying shoot it like a pistol - not against the shoulder.

So, what do you lose? If it's braced against your shoulder (ya ha a pun) then it's a little more difficult to aim. Well, handgun shooters are on video hitting steel at 400m with 9mm's, WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM?

If your intent was to shoulder the brace you took your chances with an organization that is known to reverse their opinion. FOR EXAMPLE: The early AR pistols used the carbine stock pinned in the shortest position and it was legal then. Isn't now, is it? The owners had to pull the pins and remove them.

What a lot of younger shooters lack is some long term history to get them oriented to the long term skirmishing of skirting the NFA. There are no rules because the rule makers get to change them.

Ah, hello, ever hear of Fast and Furious? Dead government agents killed by guns the ATF let straw walk across the border.

So, all this whining about "I can't hold the tube/cheek rest/brace up against my shoulder!"

You don't have to. You could practice and learn how to shoot it accurately. As in diligent self disciplined and serious training. But that would spoil the one thing that most brace buyers were really doing, dressing up their Barbie in a risqué and dangerous looking outfit.

It's never been about being a good shot, it's about owning a cool looking gun and thumbing their nose at authority, enhancing their social status and being Big Man in the Locker Room. It's called the Monkey Dance, my gun is more cool than yours.

No wonder some SBR owners sometimes acted like their shorts were in a wad. They weren't mature enough to keep from taking the bait. Not only did they have to pay for a stamp, and wait for it, and shoot an AR pistol without a stock, and get a pass from the ATF to transport across state lines, and unload it to carry it cased when they did, they got to hear from pistol owners who didn't have to, plus see them add on a stock, too.

Y'all need some maturity and perspective, the adults are going to handle it, and hopefully the kids won't tick off the ATF further by throwing rocks.

And don't forget, the ATF doesn't ever have to follow the rules - because they write them. They can, have, and will change them.

detracted to end dick measuring contest

I did my time pal. Protected your ass while you were still shitting your diapers. Retired now and still have to put up with keyboard commandos like you. I prefer you just thank me and go about your way. You run your mouth like a poser. Sheepdog my ass.



 

If it were an actual law, it would be an infringement. Instead, it is a classic display of incompetence in a Federal Government Agency.

The ATF, while apparently complaining about the letters, makes it a point to spell out that the letters are only applicable to the business or individual it is addressed to.

The bottom line is that they want their $200 and registration and want owners in fear of using a shoulder thingy.

Technically, my buffer tubes rest next to my shoulder and were designed to be fired however that particular shooter may prefer.


Is that designed or redesigned? It's the only way the boy can shoot the thing.

Detracted to end dick measuring contest.

Calm your tits. That little tank icon means that he did show a DD214 to a site staff member... Precisely so he wouldn't have to post his personal info on the Internet over a stupid dick measuring contest.

This site has tons of vets on it. Special Forces, Colonels, Sergeant Majors, SWAT, all kinds of bad asses here (not me). While the vast majority here either have served, or at least appreciate service, I highly doubt if anyone will be impressed with your ERB, or feel like they owe you something. If you are THAT badass, why don't you use some of your awesome prowess to develop some humility?

I highly recommend you quit the dick measuring before you are embarrassed or banned or both.

Sorry, I was originally stating not using your rights, is why we have lost so many of them in this country. I was using my 2nd amendment to voice that opinion. He wanted to come tell me I didn't have any conviction in life. So I figured we would have, as you stated a "dick measuring" contest.

Doc

I realize there are a lot of vets on this sites, and some true badasses. But don't tell me I'm a poser or keyboard commando because my views differ than yours....just my observation..

People get fired up over the open carry thing. In general, it's a stupid debate that unnecessarily divides gun owners who have the same end state. In this thread, that's supposed to be about the latest infringement, it's a classic hijack.

If you want, send a moderator a pic of your ID card or redacted DD214, and people will know you have verified service. If you are going to be around you can also join for something like $24 a year. The info in the ammo FAQ, AR  build it yourself, and comedy in General discussion is worth it to me.

There is also a lot of good knowledge here on how to comply with the unconstitutional NFA if you ever want an SBR or suppressor.

Hijack complete

pssst......hey.......stupid............go back to the start of this thread and do a little reading..............go slow ok.......or shall we dumb this down for you?   thanks princess.

again.  Rant over   sorry OP

If I attach a glock to the buffer tube and shoulder it is it a sbr?

Looks like a 16" barrel, so no.

Hey thanks for putting some stuff into the limelight. Sent an apology and just going to move on. Will send ID card to Mods. Thanks for the help. Much appreciated

Doc

I appologize for "going off the deep end". Please accept my apology and let this be water under the bridge.

V/r
Doc

 

No worries Doc. I too go off the deep end at times, seems this is just one of those times.

Please accept my sincere apology.



 

That's a lot of words to say I support this infringement, and have accepted my JBT overlords supreme authority and abuse of our rights.

Sure, sure. We can just expect and accept that the ATF can and will renege on accepted established standards that at least make some logical sense for whimsical nonsense.

The issue is...at this moment...this is the law. Accepting and following are two different things. Just because I follow the law, doesn't mean I accept it. It means I'm not reckless and stupid. Abolishing the ATF would be a dream come true. Sadly...were too busy constantly fighting off another AWB "1994 style" or bullshit local laws like mag-cap, type-bans, anti CCW, or other 2A infringements to even get to the ATF and their stupidity.

What he said about the ATF is 100% true. At this moment, they can and will change their mind at any time. Thumbing your nose at them is stupid and something of that nature is never productive or "standing up for your rights".

Look at it this way, is breaking the speed limit on a back country road a smart way to protest traffic laws? Nope, it's a good way to get arrested if you take it far enough. Making matters worse by asking the police "Hey...can I drive 92mph on country road 1285? There's no speed limit signs posted" and positing videos/pics of you speeding on country road 1285 online is a good way to get a speed limit sign posted there and a cop sitting in the bushes 24 hrs a day running radar. Adding 100's of your buddies asking/filming/posting the same thing over and over and over again is even more stupid and pointless.

If someone wants to fight for their rights in this law laden, corrupt government...skirting the law and then being dumb enough to ask those that write the regulations about skirting the law while posting videos of you skirting the law is just absurd.

Writing a decree that makes speeding a felony overnight would likely incite a lot of drivers. Let's not make excuses for our overlords unreasonable actions.

The ATF didn't just legislate a law. They wrote an opinion letter on the law. One that contradicted themselves. The fact that people can't distinguish the difference between a law, and an opinion is disturbing.

Yes, just like throwing the tea in Boston Harbor.

The difference between throwing tea in Boston Harbor and now is that there is NO taxation without representation now.  We are in full control of our destiny through the ballot box, which was not the case in the early 1770's in the American colonies.  If you don't like the government we have, then you can vote to change it, campaign to change it, or run for office yourself.  Like it or not, NFA is the law of the land, upheld by the Supreme Court, and BATFE is the executive agency charged with enforcing it and enacting reasonable regulations to enforce the law.  Where they enact unreasonable regulations, we can challenge them in court.  Where we don't like the law, but it has been upheld by the Supreme Court as Constitutional, such as the NFA, we can seek to repeal it through Congress.  If we don't have the votes, we get to suck it until we find the votes by persuading our fellow Americans to vote to change the law.  

 

Given that it was written in the Constitution, it would be kinda hard not to.  

I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm disagreeing with the notion that it is pointless or hopeless to try to change regulations or to fight unreasonable regulations or laws. It's always better to be able to enact political change via the ballot box rather than the ammo box. We do have options we can exercise short of armed rebellion or civil war. They may not be easy or convenient, but they are less inconvenient than an insurrection would be.

Oh, I quite agree with you.  I'm in the Guard.  I really don't want to fight an insurrection.

Theory and reality apply here. Does anyone really think Congress will act to change the NFA in any way that helps firearm owners? In theory they could, but realistically speaking I don't ever see that happening. The group interested in repeal of the NFA is a small sample of gun owners and voters and there is no political upside for politicians to repeal it or even make it less restrictive. The best we can get, IMO, is the small changes here and there that can be accomplished through legal action. The Thompson Contender case is an example, and that small victory allows a receiver built first as a pistol to be reconfigured as a rifle, and then back to a pistol again. It was a small, but important win in the fight against arbitrary enforcement by the ATF.

The Sig Brace provides another opportunity, but it really isn't about the brace itself. It is about the ATF's arbitrary decision that the use of an ATF approved, non-NFA item in a way other than intended somehow redesigns said item into a new, NFA restricted firearm. This is a very dangerous precedent that must be challenged IMO. The Sig lawyer's statement that the ATF is oberstepping its bounds is the real key and the issue worth fighting. It's not about making the brace legal to shoulder, although that could possibly be the outcome. I'm hoping Sig's recent comment on the brace reversal means they will take the ATF to court, even if the outcome reclassifies the brace as a stock.

They have allready proved  willing to take the ATF on legally with their suit about the muzzle brake the ATF insists is a suppressor baffle stack, and therefore a suppressor. They don't care that the item they call a suppressor doesn't reduce dB's in any way. Another arbitrary ATF opinion with no basis in facts. The decision is still pending, but a small victory here will make getting suppressor parts and repairs easier since the parts won't be considered as silencers until they are assembled.

I see that SIG has an opportunity in court w/ the SIG brace, but I don't see it as a slam dunk.  A 26"+ "firearm" w/ VFG magically becomes an AOW if you conceal it.  So there is precedence for BATFE to rule that a particular use of a Title 1 gonne converts it to Title 2.  The SIG muzzle brake is clearly a baffle stack, and the Noveske Flaming Pig is clearly a single chamber suppressor - but since the law doesn't spell out what a suppressor is, BATFE has never bothered to define it, and in the SIG suppressor case, that has bit them in the ass.  Clearly the SIG muzzle brake ISN'T a suppressor, and as such, can't be regulated, which does call into question BATFE's regulations on suppressor parts.

It is funny how people can talk themselves into something even though they despise the agency telling them.

I've never considered the brace anything but a pseudo stock.  I think it has merits within the American Disability Act, but outside that it's just a rubber stock.  My biggest problem is that the law says you have to register a short barreled rifle.  That's flat out what it says.  And just because some tech writer in an agency I'm not a fan of says it isn't a stock, that still hasn't convinced me at least at the state level that it isn't a stock.  Of course, going against this administration is second nature coming from Arizona where we don't agree with much that these guys do.  

But in any case, I have doubts that the Feds would call preemption when it comes to most State laws that mirror the federal law for short barreled rifles.  Just because the Feds won't arrest you, doesn't mean your local agency won't.  In Arizona, I doubt they'd fight the Feds on this one.  But I wouldn't want to own one in a State that doesn't allow short barreled rifles.  To me it just shows how small a community this is, that it's flown under the radar of the States for this long.  And I wouldn't bet on a judge in California not calling it a stock regardless of what the tech writer at the Fed says.  I think it would be an interesting argument, though, for both sides.

I'll be really surprised if Sig wins these arguments even with the great Stephen Halbrook on their team.   It's nice the Feds gave them an argument to make in the first place.  Should be interesting.  I hope everyone gets to keep their crappy rubber stocks.  The whole NFA premise of concealment is quite obsolete given most states allow for concealed weapons to some degree.  Now if we can just figure how to get new machine guns back.  The bump fire stocks are a good start, let's hope the ball keeps rolling in a positive direction for our community.

Sig really needs to be commended and supported for making the efforts they're doing.  It's funny it takes a primarily foreign corporation to go to bat for us.  You'll never see a Ruger, Colt or Remington challenging the system.  Might have to go buy something Sig today for good measure.  

Of course there are no slam dunks, but as far as I know, the AOW use issue has never been challenged in court, has it? Probably because who whould coceal a 26" + pistol?

I would like to see the Sig attorney present identical braced pistols and ask the court to identify which one is an illegal SBR due to the brace being put to a shooter's shoulder.

+1000

Interesting dilemma... - would you fight your fellow Americans if the Guard called you up for such a thing?   I hope it never comes to that.

Arm braces, cheek rests, AR pistols, SBRs... accompanied NFA, inconsistencies, making up rules on the fly...

Sort of takes me back to the BATFE of days gone by -> http://nyti.ms/1tucRLE

I don't believe that applies here either. A better example for that would be the landowners dealing with the Department of interior/Exterior.

I don't think this opinion letter is anything other than one mans official opinion. It's worth exactly what we paid for it. I don't believe it has the force of regulation. I don't think it will be used in a court. Worse case scenario is an agent or LEO makes an arrest for an NFA violation after having had their opinion swayed by the letter/policy. Then it would have to play out in court. The actual laws haven't changed. The previous letter stating it was ok, was not a law, and neither is this. The only difference is people are just swaying in the wind with the ATFs opinion. The law is unchanged.

It's like theres a 55MPH speed limit, but everyone in your town drives cars that only go 45mph. Then Joe gets a Corvette and wants to go 55, so he writes the State troopers and asks if they will ticket him for going 55. They respond no. Then tons of other guys want to be Joe and Chevy, so they write letters. State Trooprs get sick of it, and start writing letters saying that 55MPH in a 55MPH zone is speeding. Then all the 'vette owners get their panties in a bunch and sell their 'vettes. The troopers opinion isn't law, and a speeding ticket for going the speed limit won't hold up.

It does look like a stock, and seems I could function pretty decently as a stock... The problem with that common sense logic, is the way the law is written. The first letter makes sense. If a firearm is built of components intended to build a one handed pistol, then it's a pistol. Same logic for why firing a pistol with two hands doesn't make it a rifle.

If the ATF doesn't like it, they can try to have the law re-written. Issuing an opinion to intimidate and confuse shouldn't work... But it seems to be working on many. Just the latest form of infringement.