It was a great event with a lot of industry news, not all of it AR related.
Just finished the clean-up and finally got a bit of rest.
Now I can try to get a bit more info up.....

Sorry it was not meant to be vague......I was just posting after Midnight and was a bit tired.
1. Yes, Wolf Performance Arms and Ammunition is firmly behind producing/marketing 6.5mm Grendel ammunition.
1. Yes, Wolf Performance Ammunition is now Wolf Performance Arms and Ammunition. They are working with both Izhmash and Molot
and will be importing a variety of AK rifles and shotguns including models in 7.62x54R. They are looking into a Grendel model as well.

There is no reason for them to build a 6.5x39mm when they are already producing Grendel ammunition. So it makes sense for them to produce a model
of rifle which chambers the ammunition they are already selling. We'll see what happens on this front.

Yeah, all of that pretty much.


Main reason I didn't want to get into the 6.5 Grendel was the whole proprietary rights crap they were pulling about 4-5 years ago.

Now, I'm interested, WAY interested.

I never had an ounce of interest in the 6.8mm.   I'll be happy should it eventually die a slow death and is gone from the world.    The only thing that is advantageous to me with a new chambering over 556 is much increased range, 6.5 Grendel has that.

On this topic I'm a well known follower of Marty's .458 SOCOM. I really like that cartridge.
But the .50 Beowulf has emerged as the big dog in this very small part of the market.
I don't know if Wolf has any interest in doing .50 Beowulf, the numbers may be too small for them.
But, a big bore Vepr or Saiga would be interesting...

Why they are doing testing now, to see if there are any problems which need to be rectified before production begins.

The Big 3 are two fun filled days. After dinner there were lectures and then a night fire. Most went back to their hotels and crashed
to get ready for the next day, then they hoofed it to the airport. I'm sure they will post it once they've gotten back and send it out
on the Shooting Wire or such....

We had one of the original designers for the 6.8mm SPC at the event and he brought with him some of the original paperwork
and testing on it. Very interesting. Very nice guy to speak with who added a lot to the lectures.
Once the 6.5mm Grendel steel case gets rolling maybe Wolf will look at 6.8 SPC steel case.
I think that would be a good move on their part, but we'll have to wait and see.......

Marc Krebs of Krebs custom had a few 6.5mm Grendel AKs at the event. He has done a lot of work in this regard
building a DMR rifle. His rifle is shooting 2 inch groups at 470 yards....which is pretty good for an AK...
So there is a lot of interest on the AK side of the house regarding this cartridge....

Wolf said the steel case 6.5mm Grendel will be priced like their steel cased .223 Rem.
It's a flexible cartridge that works very well in shorter barrels too.
We had a shoot house set up at the event. Writers and industry people ran it shooting
Zombie targets with a full auto AKS-74, 6.5 Grendel carbines, 5.56 ARs, 7.62x39mm AKs
and even a Beowulf and Swedish K along with pistols. The 6.5mm Grendel does great
out of a carbine and is likely where the vast majority of future sales will be. Hi-Lux was testing
a new CMR reticle and they spent a considerable amount of time running it on a 6.5mm Grendel
carbine both up close and out to 530 yards to see how it performed.
Seems to be a very good design and I like it better than their current one.

This is all academic. The Russians are producing 6.5mm Grendel, not 6.5x39mm. No one produces 6.5x39mm commercially.
It makes no sense to for them to develop and produce an entirely new cartridge when they are producing Grendel
and as Marc Krebs has proven, it drops right in........

What kind of AK mags was he using for the Grendel?   7.62x39?

He was using modified 7.62x39mm mags and an adapter with AR mags.
So a good purpose built mag would be required.

Hate to tell you but some DEA depts are adopting the 6.8, it's not going away...

Nope, way too good of a cartridge. Need to try to get inexpensive steel case 6.8.......that would be cool too.

The 6.8 is like Rock and Roll, ain't never gonna die pal. That said, I'm happy the 6.5 has finally been given a chance to breathe and grow. It's a great round.

6.8 die? LOL Now with H starting to build the 6.5, I might have to invest in one.

If I get back in healthy enough shape to go long range shooting again, may have to add one from H myself to my ARP 6.8. I kinda want one of his .223 based wildcats too though.

H, build Grendels??? Oh, the horror of it all. Please tell me, is the end of the world at hand?

I'm glad it's Barnaul making the ammo. I wont buy standard wolf but I buy brown bear all the time, works great!

When I start seeing the ammo appear I may have to build a 6.5 rig.

Just the news I needed to push me into the 6.5 club.  I've been thinking about an 18" 6.5 coyote rig but practice ammo cost has kept me in .223.

Yup, used to be voodoo and the AA name is what kept me from investing in a 6.5. Now with that BS gone, I can see myself owning a G-ARP. Use the 6.8 when I mean bussiness and use the 6.5 if I ever get into LR paper punching.

Let me get this straight.  The AA name kept you from buying a 6.5 Grendel? So if you buy one now does that mean you'll buy it from AA or will you buy it from someone else that makes it when that arises?

How long do 6.5G bolts last compared to 5.56 bolts?

Harrrison at AR Performance has been selling beefed up 6.5 bolts for his 6.5 rifles, and the 6.5 Grendel for a while, that allow for a hotter load, and better velocity without the breakage associated with pushing the Grendel. It is the I.T.S. version, beefed up similar to the other bolts he sells, that have more material where needed.

Look at the bolt pictured above. H's bolts look more like the one on the right material wise. The ones on the left will break if pushed hard.

They also don't work with standard barrel extensions.  His new 6.5 Grendels are supposed to be using standard 7.62x39 bolts, so the only difference between them and current Grendel bolts will be the lack of recess.  Of course his will also be his 9310 super bolts, so they should be stronger than most companies 7.62x39 or 6.5G bolts.  

His "big bolts" as he's calling them now, are incredibly strong.  They can handle 60k psi with a .308 bolt face.  That'd destroy an opened up standard 5.56 bolt in a heartbeat.

ETA:
Standard 7.62x39 bolt, ITS 7.62x39 Superbolt, 6.5G Big Bolt, .308 bolt face Big Bolt.

Not to get too far off topic here,

Josh you seem to have the 6.5 bolts figured out. Can you go into some more detail as to the differences between the AA bolts, the Les Baer Bolts and when I looked at the CSS website, they listed 2 bolts, one was OEM and one was the CSS bolt... So yeah, a little confused.

I am in the planning stages of a pretty special 6.5 build and the Big Bolts are going to be the ones I use for sure now, it does resemble the KAC E3 bolt. I like it, and the added strength is NTFW, and worth it. Do you know if they use the standard headspace or the recessed headspace? Thank you in advance.

IIRC, the 6.5 CSS uses standard headspacing.  I could be wrong on that, though.  Not all that familiar with CSS's version.  Pretty sure H's Big Bolt uses standard headspacing as well.  Best bet is to just have him make the barrel for you as well.  I was planning on going with the 6.5 Grendel until I found AR Performance's Big Bolt.  I went with the 6BRX instead.  Had H build me a barrel using a Kreiger blank and his Big Bolt and matching extension.  Better ballistics than the 6.5, but absolutely no factory support.  It's been an interesting round to learn handloading on.

So who makes these "big bolts" that you all are talking about?  Looks like it takes a different barrel extension, correct?

Thanks,

Indy

AR15 Performance  And yes, it takes a different barrel extension.

CSS uses the same bolt as AA.  They first used the standard bolt and for a short while they sold both, but now it's just an AA bolt.

It will be built by Harrison @ ARP, I would not buy a stick of gum from AA. I have a 6.8 from H already and it is amazing.

standard, ARP standard, ARP PPC face big bolt, ARP 6BR big bolt

Let's discuss the .295 neck. I see on some other forum they are making some incorrect assumptions. That neck on the 6.5 Grendel or other 6.5's that are marked differently, came about from Arne Brennan.  The fellow is basically a match or target shooter and these types like tighter dimensions.  Now on this other forum they are saying two things. They are saying that the advocates of the .295 neck claim is helps accuracy.  To this they refute that as good  accuracy can be had with the .300 neck. Then they will say when the advocates are told that, that their new claim is that it works the case neck less.  The pro .300 neck people claim that the .300 neck makes the rifle more reliable.  Okay...a little history on me. I'm a cast bullet shooter. As you know cast isn't nearly as clean shooting as jacketed mainly because you have to lubricate the bullet. This lube mixes with carbon fouling. Because a cast bullet can't be loose fitting in the throat would seem to make it not a good candidate for an AR 15. This is not so. What I'm getting at here is I have a .295 neck and I shoot tight fitting cast bullets which can really dirty up your chamber and my rifle hasn't skipped a beat EVER!  So the reliability statement with the .300 neck is BS.  Now in order to get any kind of accuracy from a cast bullet you have to deliver the bullet into the bore as straight as possible with the bore center line. Some of the accuracy benchrest tricks come into play here like partial sizing or neck sizing. Yeah, get that, I do this on my AR's (all of them) and they run reliable.  So a .295 neck more does more center the bullet to the bore center line. That is very important in shooting cast and target jacketed.  I use the Redding bushing dies. I have selected my bushing to only size the neck down the needed amount.  Doing this along with the .295 neck DOES increase the case neck life.  This reliability thing came from the military because the soldiers life depends on it and they are shooting firearms in a lot more dirty environment then most shooters that talk about reliability on gun forums.  .

Perhaps this is obvious to most but do all the above bolts fit standard 556 carriers?  Thanks

Yes. As already mentioned, the Big Bolts won't work with a standard barrel extension.  They fit standard carriers just fine though.

If one is going to get a barrel from H I don't see what the fuss is about you having to have the bolt and extension both.

I think the big bolt option is not known well enough.  Should be posted in new AR products section.  He should be selling a ton of barrel / big bolt combos, uppers, and rifles.  I really like the idea of 6.5BR or 6.5BRX but a strait 6.5G (with a big bolt) is also now really compelling given soon to be available cheap factory ammo and the likelihood of improved mag support.

Here's something interesting.  Now that the Grendel has been SAAMI anyone can produce it. SAAMI will standardize all of it's dimensions and to just name a few those dimensions are the cartridge, chamber, bore, among others.  Now one, not all, the differences between the Grendel chamber and the 6.5 CSS chamber (this is how it use to be but not anymore) is what I call the position of the chamber. With the Grendel the chamber is less .011 inch deep in the breech end of the barrel then the original 6.5 CSS was because Bill A. chose to use a .011 recess bolt.  At the time CSS was using a standard 7.62x39 bolt. They now use an AA bolt. Now that the Grendel has been SAAMI  a manufacture can use any bolt. If I were going to manufacture the Grendel I'd use the new 9310 standard bolt because it IS stronger then the recessed AA bolt. That's what H is doing.  His claims on his bolts are true.

Mr. Alexander, I beg to differ with you on reliability. How many cast loads, which the cases are partially sized or just necked sized, have you fired out of a variety of calibers of AR 15 and AR 10's?  I'll bet none. I'm just not buying the .300 neck diameter story.  I'm not even going to begin to debate the bolts, but I do see your story of deeper recess giving the lugs more flex has changed.  

I just got an e-mail about the sale on Grendel brass.  Shipping is a little pricey however.

Why remove material from the extractor claw? 7.62x39 extractors made now work fine or bolts can be made to run 5.56 extractors. Making the recess deeper only takes away material that supports the lug attachment which is the weakest part of the bolt when the recess is .448 dia to accept the 7.62x39 case. Durability better than the M4 5.56 bolt? I doubt that.

How many people run cast bullet loads in ARs?
Not being compatible with steel case ammo on the other hand would be a bummer.....

David,

The point being is cast runs much dirtier then jacketed..much, much, much dirtier and the cast bullet has to cam into the cone (sometimes the bore) for upmost accuracy and I can't think of a more severe test for reliability (under normal civilian target shooting and hunting conditions) then cast.  Now with the steel cases it's been told they had a problem with the coating on the case gumming up the chamber especially when the chamber gets hot and running lots of ammo through it, BUT I think they resolved that with a different coating.   I don't see the new steel case ammo being a problems except for maybe, and I say maybe, if it has the hard primers that AR 15 firing pins have a hard time detonating.

The .295 was never an issue for reliability as that the least area of conflict unless you are dealing with things like bulged crimps or when Hornady put out some cases with burrs on the case mouth, that is outside the case mouth. The issues with Hornady's first batch of ammo not fitting the "clone" chambers was with problems with the necks.  It was definitely a head space dimensions problem, but I'll suspect I'll get a reply from you or Bill A.  stating the radius at the neck shoulder junction, which no doubt is/was a problem, but not the main on.

Using cast bullets to "test' the reliability of an AR is like using liquified bacon fat to "test" the reliability of a jet engine. Yes, both can be made to work, but the premises are such outliers that no manufacturer would consider either a viable design parameter. Although I have to admit, such a jet engine would smell amazing...

Why do a few barrel manufacturers not like using your compound throat reamer?
I've never had a problem using Grendel or 264 LBC ammo in a 6.5CSS chamber so what are you talking about that is " obsolete, problematic and incompatible"

Bill let me clear that up some.  I have nothing to do or gain from the company/companies that use the .295 neck.  Funny in the beginning you had some Grendels with the .295 necks.  Also I was just recently told by Steve Satern that you phoned him telling him to put .295 necks on some special Grendels to to a target competition. Why would you do that if the .300 neck is so good?  Anyone can call Satern and ask them that too.  

Okay a tighter neck can be more accurate.  As mentioned before I'm a cast shooter.  By the way the circle of cast shooters I belong to is, and you won't believe this, larger then your 6.5 Grendel shooters. So that's a lot of AR 15 and AR 10 cast shooters with lots of different brand and caliber rifles which is more then likely a huge testing bed, probably larger then your so claimed production testing.  Anyways I shoot cast from a lot of early military rifles. More then often these rifles have oversised chamber dimensions, not only from poor machining standards in yesterday's firearms, but from being worn out from actual uses on the battlefields. What I'm getting after is I can tighten up those large chamber dimensions by using a larger thicker case such as a military 30-06 case. I even can size military 30-06 cases down to cartridges that have a much smaller body diameter.  One such case is the 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenaur. I made tools and dies to actually swage the solid web of the 06 military cases down.  More often I'm after getting that fatter case neck which I can turn to precise dimensions for a perfect fit in the neck.  That is the only way you can get precise accuracy with cast and for that matter even jacketed.  

How about answering this while I have your attention. When are you or Alexander Arms going to release the SAAMI on the 6.5 Grendel so manufacturers can start producing rifles for it and be legal to stamp them as 6.5 Grendels?   From what I've been told this hasn't been done yet.  Also from what I have heard the statement of trademark release and the 6.5 Grendel being SAAMI hasn't been officially announced by you or Alexander Arms.  It has only been announced, that I know of, by Gunwritr and bwaites on this forum, who, of which am sure aren't employees of AA.   Where has the announcement been officially announced by an official AA representative?