Ideally, a 308 magazine fits into the magwell at a certain slight up angle.

The ideal 308 magazine fits into that slight up angle magwell and has a slight down angle on the feedlips. Specific degrees withheld just in case I decide to look into making a 308 magazine again . If the magwell isn't at an angle, the magazine really should be curved, not straight.

One company in the world REALLY knows how to make a 308 magazine, that company is HK.

The G3 magazine is a great magazine, take a look at the G3:



Probably the best 308 magazine in the world today is the HK417 magazine, which I have spent some time playing with, it is a truly kickass mag:



The 417 mag does curve a bit, the G3 doesn't, G3 magwell is at an angle, 417 magwell really isn't, both mags work really well though.

Now compare that to the SR-25 magazine well and magazine:



And yet Knights still wonders why 20% of the magazines they produce fail their own testing, and the M110/SR25s in service right now aren't doing too well.

Okay, now back to the 30 AR... sorry Martytw...

Ok I'm all ears, could you please explain to me how a cartridge with half the case capacity and a lower pressure rating outperforms 270 Winchester in pretty the same length barrel with the same bullet weight without resorting to excessive pressure.

TOP 15" barrel 100grn 270 winchester load @ 65K PSI

My 30PPC largo will get close (7.62x39imp)...BUT.....That's at quit a bit overpressure with a 1-15 twist 26" barrel

because the powder you selected, 4895, doesn't work worth a crap out of a 15" barrel......maybe in a .223 with 69gr bullets but not a .270....the 47gr load out of a 24" barrel will clock at nearly 3,300fps, so does that sound like a optimum efficient load for a 15"....

the 30ppc was optimized a long time ago, the case capacity works best with 20" barrels and 112 to 115 bibs....have several that get shot in hunter class matches and achieve over 3,000fps....since around 2002...

personally I think the case diameter of the 30RAR would be great as a .358......If the mag well is wider that promises a whole new set of possibilities....a double stack sometin sometin...

as I said earlier, I hope it works out for em....

Well since the powder reflected in the 270 above yeilded the highest mv out of about a half dozen other powders how can you say it's "not worth a crap"


Just answer the question

How does a cartridge with a lower pressure rating, half the case capacity  outrun a 270 with the same bullet.

And please don't go with the same old "because powder is still buring as the bullet leaves the muzzle" myth

I'm gonna have to think up something nice to say again at the end of my post so this doesn't equate as thread drift.......

you answered your question with your own 30ppc, a cartridge with half the capacity of a .270 that will achieve the same 3,000fps velocity out of a short barrel, its not the cartridges fault that you chose to put a .270 length 26" barrel on an intermediate case capacity cartridge.....


hmmm...the 30RAR.....I do like the color green....

No you haven't answered anything.

My ppc largo has to be pushed hard to hit 2800 with it's 26" barrel it sure as hell ain't gonna kit 3k if I chop off 6"


The 270 load above hits 3050 in a 15" barrel, again how does 6.8 match that with half the case and what's supposed to be a lower pressure celing

bullshit it won't......make you up a 20" 1:18.....fill er up with N120....get off those cheap ass 125 noslers and get you some 110 triple shocks and get ready to be amazed....3,100fps...and will shoot the right eye out of bambi at 200yds....they call it hunter class matches for a reason....

with the case capacity of the 30ppc it is too small to make use of a 26" barrel.....whether you believe it or not I'm trying to help you out here.....


and I still like the color green.....


eta: the above combination will not work for an AR-15, action will not live.....since you were comparing it to your bolt-gun, the above is a 20" bolt combination that works......

And yet you still refuse to answer the question posed. 6.8 vs 270  

But you do get close in your alluding to the fact that the 30ppc loads will not be kind to anything other than a bolt action.  More velocity is possible with this cartridge but the problem with going faster is brass life becomes quite brief. As the guys over on benchrest central will attest to.
To be blunt the br guys don't give a crap about pressure beyond the context of brass life.

And for the record I don't shoot nosler bullets through my ppc largo.

28grs of n120 is good for 2870 with a 100 grn lapua hpce

Hey, stop the bickering... can we get past the whole 6-point thing already? You are comparing a deep rifled fast twist 270 barrel (old school) to a shallow rifled slow twist 6.8.  There may be something there.  Plus, there is a weird efficiency thing that happens that seems to throw everyone for a curve.

In my 8th Ed COTW,
the 223 is shown to launch a 45 SP at 3300 fps (no barrel length or pressure mentioned as usual) - case capacity is 28.8 gr water in my books
the 22 Super Jet is listed as a 45 SP at 3300 fps (again no barrel length or pressure) - case capacity is 18.5 for the regular version, 20.5 for the Ackley
max pressure for the .223 is 55,000 and for the Jet is 40,500 psi. (71% capacity and 74% pressure, arguably 52.5% lower performance expected)

Can I explain why?  Nope.  But there appears to be  a sweet spot where case capacity, length, diameter, caliber, etc all come together.  I did a study on that very idea (like what Jamison did with the short magnums) and using some regression software, it gives interesting results - it validates the empirical results of some of the "super efficient" cartridges plus suggests some other cartridges that should perform exceedingly well.

The point of this thread was that the R-15 in .30 RAR is not a standard AR-15 lower, the magazine well appears to be wider, which should make some interesting things possible.  Some folks have already suggested it would accept 45 ACP magazines, some of us are thinking of a 6.x version on this case.  

Thank you HTR for confirming what I found.  My interest was that I wanted the gun writers to be more clear that the lower is NOT a standard lower (if the upper is compatible with a standard lower, that is cool with me, trust me, I have some projects that could use that type of lower).

Can we get past Remington's goof on the numbers they have on their website and stop the infighting on the performance of our preferred cartridges?

fixed typos

Here it phuqueing goes downhill.

My 2¢ is that I'm glad that Remington brought it out and every FUDD that buys one is one less Zumbo. If Remington  does have a wider mag well, then I'm willing to lay money&odds that Marty is going to do some might wonderous things with it. If Remington brings out a .260 RAR, then I'm going to be all over it.

Who said it could?

Dude, are you serious with this crap?  What does the .270 Win have to do with the 6.8 SPC and the 30 RAR?  Ceartinly not the AR15 platform.  Answer is...nothing.  Well, I guess the common link is that Remington manufactures ammunition for all three calibers...

If the mag pattern is .308 width or close to it......it looks like they have plenty of meat in the bolt and extension......need to down size the bolt face.... I'm thinking something like a double stack .30BR .....or a 6.5 Grendel / 6.8 SPC double stack MAGNUM.....

This guy:

I think you need to remember the timing of his comment.  He was thinking the round only went 2200 whatever FPS from a 22" muzzle...

I think you need to stop being cynically argumentative.  He said this ...

Average muzzle velocities for 10-round strings from the 22-inch barrel were 2,721 fps for the MC and 2,770 fps for the Core-Lokt, slightly down from the advertised 24-inch-barrel numbers of 2,800 fps.

... in the same @#$@!$ post.

At 1:40, "in conjunction with our R-15 modular repeating rifle", like Remington inventing or even developed the platform they are using for the .30RAR. And the guy in the video loads without closing the port door, shameful.

For a company Remington's size, they have got to have a web department, why do they still have miss printed info up?  

I believe the 300OSM is everything the 30RAR is trying to be and more.  I am not an fan of OA in general, but their WSSM rifle and uppers are a truly unique offering, and they have been around for years.  

Right, I'm looking at the wrong guy.  My bad...

Relax brother!  

No problem.  We all err.

Case in point:  Nobel committee awards Peace Prize to Algore.  I'm sure those guys learned from their mistake, and wont ever do anything that stupid again.  Right?

How about a rimmed  Ar in .30-.30 I wish there was one to use up m7 8,000 rounds  of ammo in that I bought dirt cheap

Righhhhtttt!  

Who cares which bullet you want to stuff down the barrel of your AR15?   As long as the uppers and lowers are interchangeable. I do 4 on one lower and it suits me fine. My Golf bag is getting a little heavy though.

Spoke to Remington today, the rep swore up and down that it uses a standard lower ....and that they were shipped to distributors a few weeks ago...

A local store had one for about 2hrs before it sold....I missed a look at it....

I was told they may be getting more tomorrow.....


Anybody see one in a store yet?

Sure, I would be happy to do that.

The 6.8 X 43mm has much better efficiency, versus the .270 Winchester, and using far less powder, and in much shorter barrels, one can now generate velocities as high as 3000 FPS with 85, 90 and even 100 grain bullets.  I will admit, that the 100 grain Nosler Accubond I loaded was a test handload, using SSA's proprietary powder, and loaded to a higher pressure.  In the 11.25" twist, 5R AR Performance  XT barrel, I was able to reach 2920 FPS with the 100 grain Nosler Accubond, before I saw significant ejector swipes.  I backed off 0.3 grains in this load when I got swipes.  

W/R/T the 85 grain TSX, that load is sold as a factory load, and advertised as achieving 3050 FPS from a 16" barrel, by SSA.  I have personally loaded the 85 TSX to 3100 FPS in a 16" barrel with loads that are generating 58.000 PSI.  We confirmed this using a pressure trace system at my ranch, when we did the 6.8 performance test.

Those velocities are routinely produced with the 85 TSX and the Speer 90 grain TNT.  The 100 grain Accubond has only been available to LE / MIL thus far, but I was able to test some of the powder and projectiles for SSA.  The maker of the AR Performance barrels has also tested the Accubond in 16" barrels, and reached the 3000 mark, but I don't know what those pressures were.

Though these velocities seemed surprising to many who thought the 6.8 was another .30 RAR....well, the facts speak for themselves.

ETA:  please excuse the relative hijack.  I just wanted to be sure that when you ask a question here, you get factual answers, before a stupid-ass flame war starts over 6X. 30 that.....  For now, all I have heard is that the .30 RAR shot 2200, no, wait, then it was 2800 FPS...yeah, that's it..  I heard the exact same thing with the 6.8 and people started blowing primers when they tried to equal that velocity claim before....only to find out that they could not get near that, until they changed the chamber, rifling and twist specs.  I will believe the 2800 FPS claim when I see it myself.  I should get to do that in 2 or 3 weeks.

I was thinking about buying one for the wide lower, but if it's a standard lower I've got plenty of those.   may end up having to get one anyway for the extension and bolt.

All of the 6.8 voodoo aside, the answer to your question is that the example load you gave for the .270 does not make use of the higher pressure rating.  Note that it specs 50K cup ...  I dont think that equates to 65K psi.

Edit:  Huh.  Looking it up, it does appear that 65K PSI rougly correlates to about 52K CUP.  Nevermind.  

The question remains:  How does higher peak pressue (PSI rating) and higher sustained pressure (larger amt of slower powder) push a bullet to lower velocity?

The .22 Super Jet was a improved wildcat version of the .22 Remington Jet.  As such, there were no pressure specifications other than the fact that Dan Cotterman's test rifle didn't blowup. COTW is quoting P.O. Ackley, who was quoting Cotterman's 1962 "Gun World" article.

Even COTW's cited loading data from factory manuals is suspect given their possible age.  Many cartridge entries have remained unchanged across multiple editions, particularly after Frank Barnes died.  Combine this with the transcription errors folks continue to find, relying on COTW load data is a potential recipe for disaster.

You guys can argue this x vs. y "on paper" stuff all you want, but the real world results for the 6.8x43 has been and is continually being documented.

My newest 18" Bison is tossing the Speer 90gr TNT at 3060~ish fps (+/-15) using 30.4gr of RL7 at 68^F, and I have a bit of room to add more powder (SSA-S/Wolf SRM).  I am convinced of it's performance.  It's quickly becoming the go to gun for anything in this state (GA)...

This is why I noted the absence of barrel length and pressure data.  

That said, the 22 Ackley Jet, using a 45 gr Sierra SP, in a 24" barrel, over 16.1 gr Win296 generates 51,000 psi and 3300 fps per QuickLoad - so the Ackley Jet CAN indeed achieve 223-LIKE performance within reasonable pressure... and the quoted 3300 fps is not unreasonable

The 223 with that same bullet, same barrel length, loaded to 55000 psi gets 3600 fps, but when loaded down to 51000 psi, the larger case only offers 250 fps extra... (3550)

Hence a 40% larger case (28.8 v 20.5) only yields 7.5% more velocity (3550 v 3300).  So there is something to be said for efficiency....

Does anybody make a 7mm WSSM ish cartridge that would hold to 2.250"-2.260" C.O.l that would work  with a standard .223 mag?.
Marty what is the max case diameter that a standard AR upper will handle?
Would something like a rebated Warbird work or will it be too large of Diameter for the Barrel extension?
Of course if you built a Proprietary upper reciever the magazine would be the only limiting factor.
Make the Cartridge Fat with an agressive angle and Titanium Nitrate the throat to help with errosion, have 10 rounds of near 7mm Rem  power.

Dtech makes a 7mm WSSM upper, and I think he can line you up with the dies needed to modify 243 WSSM or 25 WSSM brass.

Has it been confirmed yet that this new 30RAR has a new wider mag lower or is it just a bad rumor?
I hate it when people just spout speculation as fact.

AL

The way that the thread is being directed away from the original post, my guess is speculation, or market research...I spoke to a rep at Remington that said it was a standard lower...hopefully it's not the same rep in charge of their web site, lol. Lol lol

i read somewhere that the 30rar is a necked down 450bushmaster.. in which case it should work on the standard lower.

here is an article...


http://www.shootingtimes.com/longgun_reviews/ST_r15andthe30rar_200905/index1.html

I think you're on to something. The wood and steel crowd likes .30.

I was first a necked down 450 bushmaster but they changed that so the rim is .492" instead of .473" they wanted the bigger bolt face so no one could put a 30 RAR in a 450 bushmaster.Why? Dont Know. All manufactures have done some weird shit in the past and i think this is one of them. Mike

Looks like a 30 BR

Did anyone ever lay eyes (and calipers) on one of the 30RAR mag wells?

Hey guys, I almost never post, but Remington is really pissing me off!! But first, some background. My first and only AR is a .458 SOCOM I got in a group buy from Marty at Tepo Jetsu. I love the cartridge and the rifle... Thanks Marty! I do own a 6.8 SPC in a Remington 700, which is one of the most accurate combinations I've ever fired.

My problem is that I would really like an R-15 in .30 RAR, but finding ammo is a nightmare and I have yet to see a single rifle anywhere. I sent the following email to Remington a few days ago:

"It's been about a year since you started advertising this new round. Ammo is impossible to find and I have yet to see a single firearm chambered for it. Is it possible for Remington to show a little manufacturing and marketing skill just once when they introduce a new cartridge? The way you treated your customers when you introduced the 6.8 SPC was shameful, but that was good compared to how you're handling the 30 Remington AR. Instead of the comment: The worlds only 30-caliber big-game cartridge for the light weight AR-15 platform, maybe you should use this: The world is still missing a 30-caliber big-game cartridge for the light weight AR-15 platform because we can't seem to bring our idea to market."

Their response was: "30 Remington AR ammunition has been in production and shipping to distributors."

Needless to say, that is NOT an answer. It is; however, deciet at best and a damned lie at worst. Keep in mind that I'm someone who is willing to drop a cool $1000 for one of their products and I'm being denied simply because Remington appears to be too incompetent to take it.

I would like to know if anyone out there actually owns one of these rifles. Is ammo available anywhere? Why has Remington failed to bring this to market after advertising it for a year?

Now, everytime I post on a site, I tend to get dozens of responses telling me why I should get a different rifle or caliber, no matter what gun is being talked about. So please, I don't need anyone telling me why their favorite 7.62 Whoopass, .30 Nutcracker, or 6.5 Violator is better, and that I should give up on what I have in mind.

I'm gong to respond with a question

Name one cartridge Remington has introduced in the last 25 years that they haven't totally and royally screwed the consumer on
Ultra Mag,  RSAUM, SPC, RAR and the whole EtroniX debacle

Want a reach around? Start buying from another MFGR

Just like the 5mm Remington Magnum just stopped making ammo. Remington is Fucked UP!!!!!

Try responding to that with, "Please send me the names of those distributors that have this in stock so that my dealer can contact them to place an order."

So has anyone confirmed or dispelled that this rifle uses a different lower and magazine?

YES

Believe it or not I did see a Remington 30 AR at a gunshop near a Gander Mountain store in Binghampton, NY (Late November/December '09)...It did seem like a std. size AR-15 lower reciever thougth, the guy behind the counter didn't offer much Info. on the rifle however.