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Its an interesting concept, but there is no such thing as a "private" email unless it has been encrypted. The very act of sending unencrypted email over the public internet, no longer makes it private. I think the same applies to someone "copyrighting" their email. So the question is, if the posting of emails is not allowed, is quoting from emails allowed? |
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Believe it or not I recieved my stuff back from SAI today. I was in shock when I saw the package. Here is a summary, I sent Gary a SAR-3 Romainian FSB and muzzle brake for installation and Laser align gas block. I recieved the gun today with all work completed even though I asked him to just send my gun back and keep my money. All work looks to be professionally done. I did not ask or pay him for a refinish so the finish is still the rough Romainian vodka soaked park job. I can fix that myself with some gunkote. The real impressive part was at the range. I shot 4, 3-shot groups wth this gun at 50 meters One group measured 1.2" and the other 3 measured 1.1" I was quite impressed because this gun was lucky to hit a paper plate before I sent it. My final conclusions are the work performed was good, it did take 16 months to complete the work. So Gary is capable of good work and I do not think he is con-man or anything like that. I will say I was quite nervous for a long time.
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Bob, not a conman ? I respectfully differ with that, I would guess he quoted you a return time of a month or so, and then he doesn't return it for 16 months ? Sounds like a con job to me. Did you have to take legal action against him to get your stuff back ?
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Enough is enough, please stop picking on GG, he has a realing cool set of tools, he is a swell fellow and probably the best AK smith in the country, just ask him, in fact he is so good I am going to send him two krink kits and pay him in advance, I will save money in shipping because I plan on driving there and picking them up myself, its only 800 miles. anyone with half a brain knows that if a gunsmith quotes you 6 weeks it really means 3 years Daaaa.
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Looks like he started from the back of the list of the customers
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This still doesn't explain why my Krinkov isn't done yet, even though I was promised it would be shipped by April 30th, I've not filed with KAG, and have been one of Gary's biggest defenders for years, as well as having paid in advance and been responsible for many of his new customers sending him work.
Still waiting . . . . . |
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I just want you guys to know that we are looking into the issue on posting information from e-mails from GG to members here.
Personally speaking, if GG decides to respond to a member on a particular posting through e-mail, rather than posting here, it changes things. I or staff will get this cleared up. Lets just be sure that we don't violate the boards code of conduct. |
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Beware of the fury of a patient man.
We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them. |
Emails are usually a private discussion between two parties. Sharing them openly without the authors' consent is a rude gesture IMHO, but unless either party requests for it to be removed, I usually dont waste my time patrolling it. We've done this from day one and will continue to do so.
If you want to posts a small bit of key information, or paraphrase the email, so be it. Since you are also an owner of the email discussion, if you want to offer to send it out to others, you have that right. All I will do is remove any emails requested of me. I have NO ROLE in this mess, nor do I want one. My only concern is the site, and treating each of you as fairly as possible. Gary is free to come here and post responses if he sees fit, just like everyone else. I wish all of you the best in this mess and sincerely hope all parties can come together to conclude this shit once and for all. I also would appreciate not being pulled into this mess by either side. I did send Cinci an IM after pulling the email with an explanation. |
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You only live once, but if you live right.. once is enough.
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Ok, now maybe we can get Gary to post here. He has been given the chance to respond, and if he chooses not to, but sends you an e-mail, it is acceptable for you to take out excerpts and to paraphrase his responses. In addition, it is acceptable for you to offer to forward it to interested parties.
Gary, I hope you read this and understand that these folks need answers. caveat emptor |
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Beware of the fury of a patient man.
We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them. |
Can someone please tell me what Garys screen names are?
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it is informer. later jay |
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He uses a couple of screen names:
Subguns: G2 AR15.COM: GG-SAI AK-47.NET: INFORMER FALFILES.COM: GG-SA |
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"This is the AK 47 Assault Rifle, the preferred weapon of your enemy; it makes a distinctive sound when fired at you."
Krinkov Forum Modera |
never noticed it before but it is kind of odd he didnt just go with one username being he was trying to get a bussiness up and going,name rocognition and all
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I really do envy w/ some of you who got your stuffs back, and have fun w/ them. I have been waiting for my Krinkov projects- some of them has now been closer to 2 1/2 years (that's 30 months). Pretty frustrating, though.
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It's our desire to be as instrumental as possible to bring light on this and push for the return of your property.
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Beware of the fury of a patient man.
We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them. |
Right now is the high season for the bridal business. He should have money coming in to finish projects (atleast the ones he still has).
So maybe he will kick some more stuff out, but if you dont get it by the time bridal season is over, I think it will be a long wait. Provided of course, that he is not shut down before then. Frankly, I am still surprised that no one has taken an ad out in the Topeka paper exposing the link between the Bridal Shop and the "Gunsmithing" business. That for one would really start a fire under his feet to get your stuff back. |
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I just happened upon something over on falfiles.com and asked the administrator for permission to repost here. I think that the threat and intimidation displayed by GG towards the folks that have sent him business are self evident. I applaud Jen for her stance, and hope that this type of intimidation is resisted everywhere and everyway that it presents itself.
In addition, she requested that this image be linked to her thread from which it came. www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74262&perpage=30&pagenumber=1 I do not know for sure, but I can only imagine that this type of intimidation is being used on other boards. Like I said earlier, we want you folks to get your property back. We are willing to support you in that effort. |
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Beware of the fury of a patient man.
We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them. |
This letter is old news to those of us following this tragedy over on FALFiles.com I am glad you chose to post it here for those who haven't seen it.
Sadly I predict that too soon all of this will be forgotten and it will be business as usual. Regards, Gary |
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Like the tag line says, beware of the wrath of a patient man.
I do not think that anyone except GG wants to forget about your problems. We will fight to ensure that truth be told. |
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Beware of the fury of a patient man.
We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them. |
It's actually 'Beware the fury of a patient man.', and it's a John Dryden quote. Not busting your balls or anything...probably my favorite quote of all time, and QUITE true.
take care, Tec |
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whatcha expect from a pole........perfection.
Will you settle for stubborn,angry and patient poleski? |
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Beware of the fury of a patient man.
We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them. |
Guys,
I have read all the posts here and at Falfiles, really I can see why people are upset. I am also waiting like the rest of you. However I will say this much, some here have dealt with Gary on many projects like I have. I had to waite on those as well, most of them taking over a year. This is the same thing if you were to send something to George Gauger or other one man operations. However the work you get back is well worth it. Most of the guys getting their stuff back have not even bothered to post pics, they just say they think it looks great etc. Gary is by far the best Ak smith but if you are just looking for a muzzle break change or re-finish with a stock change then you should have went with an outfit like InRange or Krebb's Custom. Gary's best work is on riveting, though some pics came out of an unfinished piece that did not fully represent his skills because it was just that, unfinished. Some of you guys chose to file with KAG- this only slows things down which is understood because of the paperwork and KAG negotiations. Look Gary may be slow at getting stuff back to the point of being admittingly excessive on some rifles but in reality if you just stick it out you will get one hell of nice rifle. I believe he does the best he can with the shop he has and has been sending stuff back in priority to those who are patient and discuss things in a civil manner with him. If you came here to vent then by all means do so but only if you know that he intentially did something to harm your project other than making you waite. I have been doing business with him for five years and honestly even with the setbacks I don't think I would consider another AK smith because I want the best for my money. Other than making people crazy with waiting, he does give you a finished project that you wanted. I know as well he has been working toward trying to complete some of the oldest projects before some of the newer ones. So when you get your rifle back post some pics, then at least others will see why they waited this long. He is worth it if you care about quality- I have yet to see another outfit produce the rivet work he does. Most places aren't even set up to do rivet work or turn barrels down. They have a press and re-finishing tanks but not much more. Gary builds rifles to original specs, I know because I have a few laying around that were worth every bit of the waite. Thanks, Creeper "Bryant" |
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28 months. I'm patient. No bitching. Just an inquiry every few months. No threats. I know of many rifles that were sent in after mine and finished before mine. Again, no bitching. I'm patient. I am supposed to get my rifle back the week of 6/23. I will post pictures. |
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Killing threads since 2000
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Man, this guy certainly isn't contributing to make the world a better place. Sure glad i got warned before considering him for work.
Kudos to Jen at FALFiles for telling him where to stick his idiotic legal threats. |
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Bryant, You're posting the same BS I've been reading for three years about GG. Promising 4-6 weeks delivery and continuing to promise 4-6 weeks everytime you ask him for a delivery date is not only bad business it's unethical. I was supposed to receive my custom AK-103 build for my 43rd birthday this week I turn 45. Many of us have close to a grand tied up in a single rifle and many have several grand with GG. Why is it OK for him to have that much of our money for years while he continually promises to deliver "next month"? His inability to stick to promised delivery dates is bad enough but what's really disappointed me are the terse e-mails he sends to people who question his business practices, that crosses the line in my book. In accordance with board policy here's just a snip of what he sent me just about a year ago. (4/18/2002) I'm currently working like hell to get things caught up... and yours is one of the 14 rifles in the group. It will be a few weeks longer at most, .. that's if you want to wait. Hope that helps, take care and please let me know if you just want me to ship your things back or not. Gary Gucciano, Gunsmith SAI I believed him at the time and told him he could keep the rifle as long as needed to finish it up. However, one year later I no longer have any faith in him and have asked for my rifle back. He "may" be a good AK-smith when he wants to be, but he's a really bad businessman and people including the KAG, should be aware of that. Cinci aka Philip |
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Brothers and Sisters....lift up your glasses of Kool-Aide and drink to our Lord....We are his ever obiediant severants and unworthy of the gifts he bestows upon us... |
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make mine a double..
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Makes you want to take a pole and see the relationship of happy customers to dissatified customers doesn't it? [:\]
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Beware of the fury of a patient man.
We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them. |
Look I didn't say I disagree with anyone here. I just said that the man does good work. I am in the same boat you guys are- a project sitting at SAI worth $2,500. With most parts unreplaceable, supposed to be returned April 30th- no definative response as of yet.
Look Gary does have some bad business practices which I will not go into. However his work is another matter altogether. Two projects ago, I sent him a rifle that was supposedly complete after six months. I sent him the remainder of the funds because he told me it was completed. I did not get the rifle back for another 10 months. This pissed me off tremendously and I swore I would never do business with him again. However when I got the rifle back it was absolute perfection- I mean not just slightly but this thing looked better than any AK I have owned or seen anywhere. Honestly the man should just build rifles all day and not address a single customer whatsoever but he does not have that choice since he is a small operation. My point being- send something to Gary then forget about it because if the writers for major magazines have to waite a year- then you know the average joe will waite longer. When you do finally get the project back- it is well worth any time you spent freaking out worrying that it was sent to the black hole to be parted out for scrap or whatever. I have taken to the range with other board members some 15 projects of Gary's, compaired them fit and finish with original manufacture rifles. By far his rifles are built better in my estimation than most original manufacturers. I am not here for Gary PR because that in and of itself is a lost cause since he chooses to fight with customers instead of addressing issues but I will stand by my belief that he does build awsome rifles. So you waite a year, two years, or more- if you can find an original 1977 Russian AKs-74 Sidefolder with all original Cryllic selector markings, Ishvesk Symbols, then by all means buy it. However since only about 80 are actually in the country fetching fees well over $8,000 then you have to go the next best route and that is through SAI. Gary is the only one outside of Ishvesk, Tula, or Arsenal Bulgaria that can build a true comm block rifle to spec. Look closely next time you handle an InRange Krinkov or a Krebb's krinks or 74's. Pay special attention to the bulgarian trunnion and sidefolder- in both cases these outfits install them but how? Krebb's changes the rivet pattern on the trunnion block and runs 1/4th inch threaded screws into the block and turns the heads down to look like rivets, then welds them in place. InRange uses rivets but manages to dent the reciever all around the rivet pattern because they don't have a proper rivet press. Then look at the pieces Gary has built- no dents, no welding, no bullshit quarter inch bolts, uses original rivet pattern and rivets. Sorry but I don't see how going some place else is better when the end product looks like shit. Truthfully I feel sorry for all the guys who sent Gary simple lame-ass projects because they don't fully understand who they sent a project to. The idea is when you send it to Gary push the man to his limits. Otherwise you just waisted you time. Take for instance recievers, what is the main noticable difference between a Chi-Comm and a Comm-Block? The "X" and "Y" patterns around the left side of the trigger, hammer, sear pins. Gary has the ability to press those "X" and "Y" patterns so there will between your rifle and an original Euro-pattern. Also look at stampings- Tula, Izhvesk, Code 10- he can put any of those on your rifle. The other outfits are still trying to figure out how to rivet the trunnions in properly. SO no I am not disagreeing- he takes way to long. Yet it is well worth it if you actually try and come up with something better than a stock change, re-finish, or muzzle break change. Tell him to build it to original specs- in every way, every detail, so it has un-noticable differences to the original manufacture model. We have AK's built because they are the coolest weapons in existance- only Gary can build them to exact original Russian reproductions if you ask him to. Bryant |
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I find it odd that the folks that defend Gary's work, never defend the man, they all say his work is well worth the wait but they never address the lies, yes LIES Gary spouts when he promises finish dates but fails to meet them time and time again.
If you are the type of man that does not care how you are treated as a customer and have no problem being mislead and lied to and you are willing to wait up to three years for a simple project because you feel the end justified the means, then you have every right to use SAI but if you are a man that lives by a code of honesty, respect and integrity then you may want to stay away from SAI. |
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Here are some pictures of Gary's rivet job on my MARS AK-47 pistol, would you care/dare to explain/defend it? First, we have the barrel trunnion rivets, note how the gap between the trunnion and the receiver. Also note how the rivet is forced against the barrel. members.cox.net/br-25/badbarrelrivet.jpg Here is a shot of the lower rivet, note the gap I was able to create with finger pressure. It moves even easier now that the paint seal is broken. members.cox.net/br-25/badrivet.jpg Here is a shot of the back side of this very same rivet. Note how it was not squeezed. Also note where he removed the welding ( also against my directions) and just left a rebated area. members.cox.net/br-25/badrivet2.jpg |
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If Guccianos was a restaurant and all 80 of us were prone on the sidewalk in front of the place gagging and puking from the undercooked, mis-prepared food, you, BRYANT, would still be calling us lame for not going back in and trying the filet mignon. Your little "you failed to properly task the master craftsman" bit rings as hollow here as it did anywhere else. No wait, improper analogy because most of us sitting at a table with no food, empty wallets and the waiter is on a 16 month smoke break! |
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damn bryant, wipe that shit off your face before someone sees what you are doin for Gary. im really surprised some ole boy from Oklahoma or Texas aint went up there to Kansas and beat tire out of hmm. you cant just keep other peoples property the amount of time he has and think it's ok cause he supposedly does some good work.
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I call Bullshit ! I waited from Sept 2000 till January 2003 before I filed with KAG, listened to lie after lie on the phone, read dozens of lying E-mails, and even met him face to face for more lies. He tried to pull some lost in the mail scam on me, even involved the great Bowhunt in the scam. I got back a half-assed hack job. GG is a conman and complete fraud. Just contact Jerry Howland at the KAG, or GG local sheriffs office and ask them. |
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Exactly what part did I defend Gary's business practices? I defend his work. I used to defend him alot until he started this recent situation by fighting with board members who were disgruntled for having to waite. TKTM- your rifle is a shame, I feel bad you waited for something that looks like that. You also know what probably transpired between you to in order to recieve something back in that bad of shape. I am not blaming you at all but crossing Gary when you have a project with him is not a good idea as you have come to find out the hard way.
Gary has done the same to me as to you guys but I still like the projects I get back. I mean this is why we pay the man- to build something not available in the US. Also like the rest of you- when I say something my word is bond. This is the first aspect of being a man. Promising something then not delivering because of excuse after excuse is a lie in my book- so once again I don't disagree. However once again Gary has built me great rifles and I have no complaints except the waiting and lack of firm deadlines. You guys think Gary put me up to this or somehow I am helping the guy- hell I am even banned from his personal board! I am just saying that for the most part he does great work and that is that. I wouldn't do business with him if I thought the work was bad. Truthfully Gary probably has me labeled as a whiner as well even though I have been one of his last supporters over the years. I don't even get responses to my e-mails any more. However I know that one day the thing will be back and be one hell of a rifle. So that is all I am saying- the man is one thing, his work is another. Gary has the ability to start a business to become the premier AK builder in the USA but because he chooses to fight with his customers about their whining he fails to see his undoing. I wish he could open his eyes and see what an opportunity he is throwing away customer by customer yet through all the phone conversations and support by a handful of us he still has lost sight of the golden rule of business, "the customer is first and formost, and the customer is always right." Don't get me wrong- Gary missed his calling in life, he is a salesman through and through. You want to believe the words he tells you because he makes such founding promises. Then he lets those promises go by with little care until you start to "whine". It is shameful that anyone should have to waite over a year for a project- I don't disagree at all. Yet if you do waite well then you get something that is really worth it- that is why I continue to do business with him. Bryant |
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Bryant,
At what point does a man's personal honor enter into your decision making process on who to do business with in life? Or in your world, do the ends justitfy the means? Regards, Gary |
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You MUST be a plant! You would continue to do business with someone that has ZERO business ethics? Crossing Gary? What kind of stupid statement is that? Am I dealing with a bunch of 15 year olds here? |
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The term "useful idiots" has been attributed to Lenin, as a description of those mindless people in the Western democracies who would always find ways to excuse whatever the Soviet Union did.
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I have four InRange AK Builds.....no dents....
Sorry, KF |
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"This is the AK 47 Assault Rifle, the preferred weapon of your enemy; it makes a distinctive sound when fired at you."
Krinkov Forum Modera |
Ditto...plus they were delivered on time! |
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Send lawyers guns and money....the shit has hit the fan..
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"This is the AK 47 Assault Rifle, the preferred weapon of your enemy; it makes a distinctive sound when fired at you."
Krinkov Forum Modera |
Everyone knows by now that we are on the internet right. Who comes in here and advocates a particular agenda is pretty much open to all. I would have to look at the big picture here.
#1. Has produced nice builds. #2. Broken delivery dates. #3. Stringing folks along for excessive delivery times. #4. Lack of professional customer service. #5. Threats, intimidation, and possible retribution against those percieved as "whinners". #6. Has produced poor and wrong builds. I think Ray Charles can see the big picture here. I know I can and I'm Polish. I made the decission a long time ago when I noticed #4 above. Folks can do as they please, it's a free world. Hopefully, the customers who sent work to him can recover their equipment and get what they had "hoped" for, someday. To those who have been through the BS and have been dissapointed, just consider it as an expensive "stupid tax". Once paid, only you are to blame if you pay it a second time. I feel for you, in your dissapointment. I've paid many "stupid taxes" in my life and I've learned how to avoid them most of the time. Look at the "BIG" picture. PLEASE. CAVEAT EMPTOR __________________________________________ DISCLAIMER: Thoughts and words expressed by me are MY opinions and in no way do they speak for this board, and or owners of this site. __________________________________________ Personally, I am ready to lock and keep this thread tacked. GG has been given the opportunity to respond and to me, enough has been said. Do I have a second? |
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Beware of the fury of a patient man.
We cannot solve the problems we have created with the same thinking that created them. |
I will agree with that.... this thing has gotten beaten to death here.
Those who wish to continue, under non constrained rules are encouraged to visit, and post at www.ak-74.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=9 |
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Send lawyers guns and money....the shit has hit the fan..
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That's a piss poor rivet job. Hopefully you didn't pay too much. Least you were able to get your pistol back. Looks like another smith should be able to fix it. Good luck. |
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Any news from the KAG?
Did anybody get his or her property back? |
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Nothing since the letters went out. Almost 30 days since Kansas State Troopers raided them. Would sure appreciate some news. |
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I wonder if he referred to the troopers has whiners and complainers as they were recovering his victims stuff ?
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No way, he/she is only a rude, lying dick through email. Does not have the nads to say a cross word on the phone. I am sure the Troopers only saw a quivering, repentant and obedient Gary. You know, the same one April sees........... |
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I got a present today in the mail. Both of the SAR-2s I sent to GG where returned to me by the Kansas Attorney Generals Office. I am still waiting on a Bulgarian receiver, and Polish parts kit to be returned to me along with several parts missing from the SAR-2s.
I sent the SAR-2s to be re-finished, and to have Romanian AK-74 FSBs installed. Gary (SAI) parkerized both rifles except for one selector, and gas tube. GG parked the bolt while it was assembled causing the firing pin, and extractor to become stuck, but took the time to disassemble the other. Both rifles have a fair amount of rust due to neglect. I am crossing my fingers that I get the rest of my items back. Anyone else received a package from the KAG? The Azalin |
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