I'm a member of the NRA, and as such I get tons of mail from them. About 60% of it warns me that if I don't contribute money, then the US will wind up like England where disarmed citizens cower behind locked door for fear of the gangs of criminals who unabashedly roam the night. Is it really all that bad over there?

Also, what are the current consequences if you shoot an intruder. I read an article in one of my NRA magazines a while back about some farmer who offed a burglar who had broken into the farmer's house. The farmer went to prison for a couple of years as a murderer, and the burglar's cousin was vowing to exact revenge. I understand that there has been a change in the law since then though giving you the right to defend yourselves in your own homes. What is the current situation like?

Motown Steve,
I too am a member of the US NRA and also get the mail and publications that you do, including American Rifleman every month.

Don't believe the bullshit that Wayne LaPierre and his Cronies feed you...and all other NRA members about the gun and crime situation in the UK.
I have stated this on several occasions on this forum.

Yes there is crime, but it's nowhere near the same scale as you have in the US.

The British people were never disarmed because they were never armed in the first place.
Firearms have never been permitted for self-defense, only for sports/recreational shooting or hunting/pest control.
It's true that handguns and self-loading rifles were banned but there is no connection between this and any rise in crime. It's purely coincidence.
The bans were bad law making though.
There are still plenty of legally held firearms in Britain.

As for the farmer Tony Martin, if you shoot a fleeing burglar in the back with an illegally held and prohibited firearm, you are going to face a murder charge anywhere.

then the US will wind up like England where disarmed citizens cower behind locked door for fear of the gangs of criminals who unabashedly roam the night

Don't know what part of Britain this is, bit it's not one I'm familiar with.

Once again, it's all bullshit and is designed to do nothing more than scaremonger the American population.

A couple of years ago, Wayne LaPierre came over to London to give a lecture. How many of us US NRA members that live in the UK were invited??? None.

Keep on giving them money if you wish, but don't believe everything they tell you.

Mark

Mark

Great points and well made. I often point out that we are not confined to our houses because of gun weilding gangbangers. But there are small hotspots where the Yardies have shootouts with each other
In general we dont need to be armed
I have rifles in my house but I do not feel safer because of them just as when I did not have them I did not feel at risk.
My rifles are for target shooting ....period
If I need to defend myself I would have to resort to other/minimum force methods.

but you had better believe I'm going to defend my family and myself with determination.

I often post replies to threads where people mention we have had all our guns taken away by correcting them. I hardly bother now because there are so many.


I do however have great respect for Americans who come here and ask us the truth.

Steve
The UK is a very safe place most of the time and if memory serves me well Glasgow has the highest crime figures here.
Where I live more people die each year fishing (swept out to sea from the cliffs where they fish from) than die from gunshot wounds.
Last shooting (shotgun) I remember within a 30 mile radius from me was about 7-8 yeas ago
And he was caught in a matter of days.

Don't belive all the hype. I started a thread a while back asking what the laws were like over in the US and I was surprised to find some laws similar to ours in a few states/cities and some worse than ours.

cheers

Taffy


ETA
Tony Martin was let down by the authorities and coupled with that and two thieving toerags created the catalyst for his actions. I dont condone killing a burglar but I understand his motives and actions.

Quoted: ETA Tony Martin was let down by the authorities and coupled with that and two thieving toerags created the catalyst for his actions. I dont condone killing a burglar but I understand his motives and actions.

I think his problem was that he pre-meditated an ambush situation by lying in wait for the burglars - not really a self-defence shooting at all... There have since been other cases where burglars have been shot without the shooter ending up in prison.

ETA We had a shooting down the road from here a couple of years ago (rural Sussex countryside). Drugs related, the hitman was a pillion passenger on a motorbike and shot the 'victim' in the head through his drivers window when the car stopped at a junction. Turns out the victim was involved in dealing in some way and was going to testify in court against his former associates... As an aside, the bikes number plate was V1LON - even hitmen have a sense of humour!

Quoted: Quoted: ETA Tony Martin was let down by the authorities and coupled with that and two thieving toerags created the catalyst for his actions. I dont condone killing a burglar but I understand his motives and actions. I think his problem was that he pre-meditated an ambush situation by lying in wait for the burglars - not really a self-defence shooting at all... There have since been other cases where burglars have been shot without the shooter ending up in prison.

True ...very true


But ask yourself why?

The history to the case provided ample oppertunites for the police to attend incidents at his farm previously to this. He "felt" he was on his own and that the police would/could not get to his remote location to help him. He felt his only option was to try to protect himself. Misguided perhaps but he felt helpless.
Therefore I understand the build up to the event


He is not a good example of self defense but he is a good example of someone the system failed. I belive whole-heartedly "He" was the victim. He "WAS" being robbed and he felt no one was going to come to his aid. So he took the actions he did to protect himself and his property.

Taffy

Interesting. Thanks for the info guys. I figured that it wasn't as bad as the NRA was making out, but I wasn't sure how badly they were exagerating the problem.

I looked through your picture thread, and I was pretty impressed with some of the rifles y'all have.  Is there a limit to the number of guns you can own?

Quoted: And as for 'disarmed'… there are about 2 million registered shotguns and rifles in Britain, plus at least that many unregistred ones. You need a licence for shotguns and rifles, up to six rifles seems to cause no comment, but over that they can ask a lot of questions, you can however own as many shotguns as you like. ANdy

Six rifle's?
You're force must be pretty anal, 'cause my lot only limit it by your security arrangements.
I am cleared for 20 firearms and that's because I only have a 20 gun cabinet
And I'm pretty close to filling that

Anyway, people don't realise just how many people in the UK actually have a shotgun or firearm. Something like 1 in 50 I believe

Mark

very interesting topic,
I assume you guys know that the Police Chief of New Orleans has decreeded that no civilians will be allowed guns. And the the N.O. police are actively disarming law-abiding citizens.

This has always been our nightmare senario despite assuraces from the anti-gunners that law abiding citizens would never be disarmed(I could rant for hours on this).

How is this new being received across the pond? I would guess that most Brits support such measures.

Quoted: How is this new being received across the pond? I would guess that most Brits support such measures.

I can't speak for most Brits, but personally, I'm pretty open-minded about it.
I can understand that in such a lawless place as N.O. has become, the last thing the authorities want is a load of vigilante's.
But I might be barking up the wrong tree on this one

Mark

Quoted: very interesting topic, I assume you guys know that the Police Chief of New Orleans has decreeded that no civilians will be allowed guns. And the the N.O. police are actively disarming law-abiding citizens. This has always been our nightmare senario despite assuraces from the anti-gunners that law abiding citizens would never be disarmed(I could rant for hours on this). How is this new being received across the pond? I would guess that most Brits support such measures.

I've read a lot of the NO threads knocking about GD and the survival forums.
I can understand authorites wanting to remove the guns but if your constitution allows you to have them for protection then you should be allowed to keep them. If you are shooting at helicopters or people bringing in aid etc then confiscate sure.
The little old lady being dissarmed by the police and taking her pistol off her did look to be over the top.
Just damn lucky it was not my mother if we lived there. I'd be pissed about that.

I was horrified to see so many people advocate killing police officers who were doing their job if they came looking for their guns.

The survivalisits did make me chuckle though they said "well I've got loads of guns i'll just dedicate a couple as throwaways to give to the police when they turn up"

I have read a lot about genuine good people who have done their best in helping others by either sending supplies or boats etc but so so many threads were just...."I'd kill anyone trying to take my guns"
The Police are there to help
Alledgedly "protect and serve"


Taffy

Quoted: Quoted: very interesting topic, I assume you guys know that the Police Chief of New Orleans has decreeded that no civilians will be allowed guns. And the the N.O. police are actively disarming law-abiding citizens. This has always been our nightmare senario despite assuraces from the anti-gunners that law abiding citizens would never be disarmed(I could rant for hours on this). How is this new being received across the pond? I would guess that most Brits support such measures. I've read a lot of the NO threads knocking about GD and the survival forums. I can understand authorites wanting to remove the guns but if your constitution allows you to have them for protection then you should be allowed to keep them. If you are shooting at helicopters or people bringing in aid etc then confiscate sure. some jerk offs were shooting at helicopters, not the law abiding. The little old lady being dissarmed by the police and taking her pistol off her did look to be over the top. Just damn lucky it was not my mother if we lived there. I'd be pissed about that. well she was someone's mother. I was horrified to see so many people advocate killing police officers who were doing their job if they came looking for their guns. police officers like all public servants take an oath to "defend the Constitution from all invaders, foreign and domestic". So why have they forsaken their oaths to carry out unconstitutional orders? The survivalisits did make me chuckle though they said "well I've got loads of guns i'll just dedicate a couple as throwaways to give to the police when they turn up" if you can afford it why not? the cops think you're disarmed and you still got guns, everbody is happy I have read a lot about genuine good people who have done their best in helping others by either sending supplies or boats etc but so so many threads were just...."I'd kill anyone trying to take my guns" I would bet that many of those good people were gun owners. And anyone who would take your guns is not your friend. The Police are there to help Alledgedly "protect and serve" I doubt that Brazilian guy, or his family, who was shot because the London cops thought he was a terrorist would agree. Taffy

Quoted: Quoted: very interesting topic, I assume you guys know that the Police Chief of New Orleans has decreeded that no civilians will be allowed guns. And the the N.O. police are actively disarming law-abiding citizens. This has always been our nightmare senario despite assuraces from the anti-gunners that law abiding citizens would never be disarmed(I could rant for hours on this). How is this new being received across the pond? I would guess that most Brits support such measures. I've read a lot of the NO threads knocking about GD and the survival forums. I can understand authorites wanting to remove the guns but if your constitution allows you to have them for protection then you should be allowed to keep them. If you are shooting at helicopters or people bringing in aid etc then confiscate sure. The little old lady being dissarmed by the police and taking her pistol off her did look to be over the top. Just damn lucky it was not my mother if we lived there. I'd be pissed about that. I was horrified to see so many people advocate killing police officers who were doing their job if they came looking for their guns. The survivalisits did make me chuckle though they said "well I've got loads of guns i'll just dedicate a couple as throwaways to give to the police when they turn up" I have read a lot about genuine good people who have done their best in helping others by either sending supplies or boats etc but so so many threads were just...."I'd kill anyone trying to take my guns" The Police are there to help Alledgedly "protect and serve" Taffy

sorry Taffy, in AZ (and most of the other states I suspect) the police have absolutely no duty to protect you individually. although you have to protect them if they request it. learnt this when getting my CCW license.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: very interesting topic, I assume you guys know that the Police Chief of New Orleans has decreeded that no civilians will be allowed guns. And the the N.O. police are actively disarming law-abiding citizens. This has always been our nightmare senario despite assuraces from the anti-gunners that law abiding citizens would never be disarmed(I could rant for hours on this). How is this new being received across the pond? I would guess that most Brits support such measures. I've read a lot of the NO threads knocking about GD and the survival forums. I can understand authorites wanting to remove the guns but if your constitution allows you to have them for protection then you should be allowed to keep them. If you are shooting at helicopters or people bringing in aid etc then confiscate sure. The little old lady being dissarmed by the police and taking her pistol off her did look to be over the top. Just damn lucky it was not my mother if we lived there. I'd be pissed about that. I was horrified to see so many people advocate killing police officers who were doing their job if they came looking for their guns. The survivalisits did make me chuckle though they said "well I've got loads of guns i'll just dedicate a couple as throwaways to give to the police when they turn up" I have read a lot about genuine good people who have done their best in helping others by either sending supplies or boats etc but so so many threads were just...."I'd kill anyone trying to take my guns" The Police are there to help Alledgedly "protect and serve" Taffy sorry Taffy, in AZ (and most of the other states I suspect) the police have absolutely no duty to protect you individually. although you have to protect them if they request it. learnt this when getting my CCW license.

+1
It may take 45 mins to an hour before the cops show up to a 911 call, meanwhile you've already been shot/stabbed/beaten/robbed/raped ect. Although most cops are good and do their best, but bottom line, your safety is your responsibility.

Quoted: sorry Taffy, in AZ (and most of the other states I suspect) the police have absolutely no duty to protect you individually. although you have to protect them if they request it. learnt this when getting my CCW license.

In the UK you also have a legal duty to help a police officer if he/she asks.

I know several people that visited Europe (Germany Belguim, Italy) that Europe is not "peaceful" and that the crime element lurks just as they do in this country. A few of these people were actually confronted by such criminals and robbed. I understand what you say about the countryside being peaceful(like it is here) but most toursits visit the major cities. Crime lurks everywhere, it's the drawback of society. And I believe if you feel your life is endangered that you should be able to do harm to the criminal to protect yourself. That "try to run away" at gunpoint/knifepoint crap doesn't cut it with me. Most of the time you'll end up with a bullet in your back. I guess I just differ from you that way. I get what you're saying as far as the "nicer" parts of England go. I bet it's a great place to visit.

And I hear that your police are generally disarmed. How true is this?

Keep in mind that the US is a much larger and diverse nation so that what may work in the UK may not work here and vice-versa. Which I guess is why our positions on the issue differ so much. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers here. I just couldn't begin to imagine living under your laws.

Also, what are the "pro-gun" organizations in the UK?

Article I've read on the matter:

CHICAGO, Sept. 20 /U.S. Newswire/

A report released this week by the United Nations confirms what law-abiding Americans have known for quite some time. That being that criminals prefer victims who cannot fight back.

Based on a crime survey of the world's top industrialized countries, the U.N. report indicates that a resident of the United Kingdom is nearly 3 times more likely to become a victim of violent assault than is a citizen of the United States. The report reveals that Scotland is the most violent country in the industrialized world with over 2,000 Scots attacked every week, which amounts to about 3 percent of the population on an annual basis. England and Wales are close behind with 2.8 percent of the population falling victim to violent assault. By comparison, Americans are victimized by violent offenders at a rate of 1.2 percent.

These latest crime figures are a snapshot of the upward spiral of violent crime in the United Kingdom. The rate of violent crime in the UK continues to grow despite the passage of successively more restrictive laws governing private firearm ownership. While violent crime in the UK has been ramping up, the rate of similar crimes in the United States has been declining -- thanks in large part to the passage of "concealed carry" laws in over four dozen states.

Quoted: I know several people that visited Europe (Germany Belguim, Italy) that Europe is not "peaceful" and that the crime element lurks just as they do in this country. A few of these people were actually confronted by such criminals and robbed. I understand what you say about the countryside being peaceful(like it is here) but most toursits visit the major cities. Crime lurks everywhere, it's the drawback of society. And I believe if you feel your life is endangered that you should be able to do harm to the criminal to protect yourself. That "try to run away" at gunpoint/knifepoint crap doesn't cut it with me. Most of the time you'll end up with a bullet in your back. I guess I just differ from you that way. I get what you're saying as far as the "nicer" parts of England go. I bet it's a great place to visit. And I hear that your police are generally disarmed. How true is this? Keep in mind that the US is a much larger and diverse nation so that what may work in the UK may not work here and vice-versa. Which I guess is why our positions on the issue differ so much. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers here. I just couldn't begin to imagine living under your laws. Also, what are the "pro-gun" organizations in the UK? Article I've read on the matter: CHICAGO, Sept. 20 /U.S. Newswire/ A report released this week by the United Nations confirms what law-abiding Americans have known for quite some time. That being that criminals prefer victims who cannot fight back. Based on a crime survey of the world's top industrialized countries, the U.N. report indicates that a resident of the United Kingdom is nearly 3 times more likely to become a victim of violent assault than is a citizen of the United States. The report reveals that Scotland is the most violent country in the industrialized world with over 2,000 Scots attacked every week, which amounts to about 3 percent of the population on an annual basis. England and Wales are close behind with 2.8 percent of the population falling victim to violent assault. By comparison, Americans are victimized by violent offenders at a rate of 1.2 percent. These latest crime figures are a snapshot of the upward spiral of violent crime in the United Kingdom. The rate of violent crime in the UK continues to grow despite the passage of successively more restrictive laws governing private firearm ownership. While violent crime in the UK has been ramping up, the rate of similar crimes in the United States has been declining -- thanks in large part to the passage of "concealed carry" laws in over four dozen states.

These statistics cannot be compared as what is violent crime in one country might be affray in another. Most of the violence is amoung the same groups each week at kicking out time, it's part of a night out for some. Mostly it's the same 3%.

But what you say is basically true, large inner city sprawls with above average unemployment produce a more lawless society. The solutions are not the same for every country and even for different parts of the same country, it needs a local solution.

There are several 'pro-gun' organisations, but all deal with keeping (or returning) our rights to have and use for sporting purposes only, they don't campaign for the right to protect. I'm sure most, if not all, would like to see a return of pistols.
The NRA, the Sprotsmans' Association, British Association for Shooting and Conservation and the Gun Trade Association are the four main lobbyists for our 'rights'.
There are other smaller associations, some are more successful than others at times, but the main ones do now try to coordinate their efforts. Each of the main four has a slightly different area of expertise with some overlap, so shooters are usually a member of more than one.

Matt

Quoted: Quoted: I know several people that visited Europe (Germany Belguim, Italy) that Europe is not "peaceful" and that the crime element lurks just as they do in this country. A few of these people were actually confronted by such criminals and robbed. I understand what you say about the countryside being peaceful(like it is here) but most toursits visit the major cities. Crime lurks everywhere, it's the drawback of society. And I believe if you feel your life is endangered that you should be able to do harm to the criminal to protect yourself. That "try to run away" at gunpoint/knifepoint crap doesn't cut it with me. Most of the time you'll end up with a bullet in your back. I guess I just differ from you that way. I get what you're saying as far as the "nicer" parts of England go. I bet it's a great place to visit. And I hear that your police are generally disarmed. How true is this? Keep in mind that the US is a much larger and diverse nation so that what may work in the UK may not work here and vice-versa. Which I guess is why our positions on the issue differ so much. I'm not trying to ruffle feathers here. I just couldn't begin to imagine living under your laws. Also, what are the "pro-gun" organizations in the UK? Article I've read on the matter: CHICAGO, Sept. 20 /U.S. Newswire/ A report released this week by the United Nations confirms what law-abiding Americans have known for quite some time. That being that criminals prefer victims who cannot fight back. Based on a crime survey of the world's top industrialized countries, the U.N. report indicates that a resident of the United Kingdom is nearly 3 times more likely to become a victim of violent assault than is a citizen of the United States. The report reveals that Scotland is the most violent country in the industrialized world with over 2,000 Scots attacked every week, which amounts to about 3 percent of the population on an annual basis. England and Wales are close behind with 2.8 percent of the population falling victim to violent assault. By comparison, Americans are victimized by violent offenders at a rate of 1.2 percent. These latest crime figures are a snapshot of the upward spiral of violent crime in the United Kingdom. The rate of violent crime in the UK continues to grow despite the passage of successively more restrictive laws governing private firearm ownership. While violent crime in the UK has been ramping up, the rate of similar crimes in the United States has been declining -- thanks in large part to the passage of "concealed carry" laws in over four dozen states. I would point out that firearms and other means such as tasers are very widely available in Belgium and German for self defence purposes. Italy is quite liberal on weapons too. I've found Belgium to be fairly quite, boring really, even the 'bad' parts of Germany, I went into the 'turkish' quarter of Mannheim recently, was not very threatening. Italy has it's moments though! especially in the big cities further south. You need to realise that something like 90% of Britains 'Gun Crime' is concentrated in 4 cities… London, Manchester, Birmingham and Liecester and are predominantly 'Black on Black' drug related shootings. ANdy

Bloody hell Andy,
I know you've not been posting much here recently, but your spelling and punctuation have gone to ratshit.

Your posting fu is weakening.
In fact........


Mark

Did anyone actualy read the stats I posted?

There's plenty @ the Home Office website. I just chose a couple to download/reformat/upload that were relevant. I hate cities and would quite happily stay here in the countryside/town where I dont need to CCW. Life is peachy.


Hey come the SHTF situation
SSS

Spelling...shmelling

I'm crap at spelling but I dont let it stop me from participating in things online.
I'd hate to think people would refrain from participating just cuz they canna spell.

Batt
You keep posting mate


taffy

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Bloody hell Andy, I know you've not been posting much here recently, but your spelling and punctuation have gone to ratshit. Your posting fu is weakening. In fact........ home.att.net/~jckpics/emusuck.jpg Mark You'll have to cut me some slack… I just came out of hospital after a minor heart attack. Still doped up. Andy

Shit mate....heavy news.

Prognosis?

Taffy

Thinking bout ya

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Bloody hell Andy, I know you've not been posting much here recently, but your spelling and punctuation have gone to ratshit. Your posting fu is weakening. In fact........ home.att.net/~jckpics/emusuck.jpg Mark You'll have to cut me some slack… I just came out of hospital after a minor heart attack. Still doped up. Andy

What?????
I hope you're OK

Jeez, I know you're not in the best of health but I didn't even think you were heart attack material.
I really do wish you all the best.
Best regards
Mark

Andy I know you'll take this the right way.

Laughter is the best medicine.

Chin up old fella.

While visiting his niece, an elderly man had a heart attack. The woman drove wildly to get him to the emergency room. After what seemed like a very long wait, the E. R. doctor appeared, wearing his scrubs and a long face. Sadly, he said, "I'm afraid that your uncle's brain is dead, but his heart is still beating." "Oh, dear," cried the woman, her hands clasped against her cheeks with shock, "We've never had an airsoft shooter in the family before".

Taffy

Quoted: You'll have to cut me some slack… I just came out of hospital after a minor heart attack. Still doped up. Andy

Andy,
sorry to hear that, you take it easy.

Matt