Greater Pittsburgh Gun Club charged me $147.00 for an FFL transfer.

Here's the story:

I asked GPGC if they could do an FFL transfer and they had absolutely no problem. I should have asked their fee, but I was familiar with the general cost and made the mistake of trusting them since I am a member. They did make it a point to ask if it was a dealer or a private individual. In this case I was purchasing a rifle from a dealer down south. They made no mention that it would affect the transfer price - they only decided to inform me of that fact after the deal was done.

I joined GPGC in October of '03 and re-upped my dues this year. I have spoken to the owner on numerous occasions, bought ammo and targets from him and talked on the phone with him. In all of the conversations I was always courteous, but most of the time he treated me with what seemed to be barely-disguised contempt. I thought maybe he was just "a man of few words", but I see clearly now that guy just had contempt for me. He couldn't even remember if I was a member, even though throughout the summer I’d been in there every week.

When I arrived to pick up my rifle the owner grabbed all the paperwork and rifled through it, even though it is none of his business what I paid for the gun. He basically ridiculed me for spending $1200 on my particular choice (fairly rare and no longer imported.) He then proceeded to charge me $147.00 for “the transfer, the instant check, sales tax and associated club costs.” He made sure to let me know that this price reflected a “member discount.” He told me there would have been no tax if it had been a purchase from a private individual.

The only possible thing I can think is that he decided that they "bought" the gun for me from this guy down south. But that did not happen. GPGC never spoke to this other dealer, there was no reason for them to. I did the deal, I secured the FFL to ship to and that was it. How can there be tax?

So I contacted the original dealer that I bought the gun from:

"Dear *****, I picked up the ***** carbine today. The rifle looks good but I have a question: The total cost this dealer charged me was $147.00. I thought this price was outrageous because the most that I've ever paid for a transfer was $35.00. he told me that I needed to pay tax on the carbine - I questioned this, since I bought it out of state. There should be no sales tax. he said that "you forwarded the tax information" and that he has to pay the tax on the gun. Please tell me if this is accurate or not. I have never paid this much money to an FFL for any reason. Even at 6% sales tax it's only $72.00."

The reply:

"Dear ***, You're right. That's ridiculous. The tax info. that I "forwarded" to him was simply my ******* Sales Tax ID number, which is photocopied to all of my F.F.L. copies. You are correct in assuming no tax for an out-of-state sale."

It appears that what GPGC really did was charge me (a dues-paying member) a penalty for buying a gun from another dealer. It was punitive. Even at 6.0% "sales tax", that's still $75.00 for the FFL transfer and instant check fee.

GPGC screwed me good. It is probably "technically" legal for them to do what they did. I messed up by trusting them not to screw a dues-paying member of their club who does business with them frequently. I have purchased dozens of firearms from other dealers and private individuals and have never been charged a "tax" on anything other than the price of the transfer, which was $15-25.

The service rendered is the transfer. I did the legwork.

It is pretty clear that the main reason GPGC chose to screw me was because I bought the gun from another dealer and not from/through them. However, It is a rare gun that they didn't have and couldn't order.

I know attempting to recoup any of these funds will be futile. I just should have refused to pay, but then I would have had a whole other set of troubles, and no rifle.

I figure $147.00 is a small price to pay to learn who not to do business with. I am never stepping foot at GPGC again for as long as I live. I will find another place to shoot and do business. GPGC is not getting one more penny from me.

Anyway, I will look into alternate locations to shoot, but I will be blunt up front with whomever I talk to if they have a problem or attitude with guys who shoot semi-autos. I will get all of that out in the open right at the beginning. It is unfortunate because GPGC is a very nice facility and I used to enjoy shooting there.

I think that there are two in Coraopolis and another one in McDonald, I will hunt for some other ones. I have made alternate arrangements for future FFL transfers.

Please learn from my lesson.

As far as I know, it was not legal for them to charge you tax on the gun if you paid for it directly.  They can charge you tax on the transfer fee but not the gun.  They ripped you off and you should tell them that you'd like a refund of your tax money for the actual price of the rifle or you'll happily inform the PA State Dept. of Revenue.

That is a real lousy thing to do to a good customer.  If the dealer used his money to secure the purchase(which he did not,)  or the firearm was transfered from inside PA and there was no proof of sale tax being paid, then the dealer would be obligated by state law to collect the sales tax.  In this case he has NO right collecting sales tax from you and you should push the issue with him.

I am in this business and I know lots of dealers hate doing transfers from other dealers.  I can not for the life of me see how this hurts anyone's business.  I do transfers, and in fact I encourage my customers to buy out of state and send transfers my way.  One I do not have the hassle of collecting sales tax on the gun, and two, I am only the broker and am not responsible for the condition of the gun.  It is not big money, and the state still gets their chunk out of every transfer, but if i do 40+ transfers a month, it adds up.

Your dealer is short sighted, and does not seem to appreciate a good customer.  Outfits like that give all of us a bad name.  Sorry to hear of your troubles.

John
Seneca Arms Co Inc

I WOULD REPORT THEM, AND DEMAND A REFUND. TAXES ARE USUALLY PAID ON THE QUARTERS, SO IT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN SENT IN YET.  EVEN IF IT WAS TAX, THEY OVER CHARGED YOU, WHAT DICKS

I am appalled that a club you belong and pay dues to could do such a shady thing. IMHO that is THEFT BY DECEPTION and should be criminal! It is amazing how quickly someones true colors come out when it comes to transfers. My favorite gunshop hates doing tranfers, however they said they wouldn't mind doing it for a good customer like me. Im sorry you had to deal with that bullshit, but I hope you have fun with your new toy!     dan

Call them up, ask to speak to a manager, and explain the situation.   You should demand a refund on the sales tax portion - that much should be non-negotiable on your part - and tell them that if they expect to keep you as a member, you expect a refund on part of the transfer fee as well.  The going rate for transfers in our area is $20-$40.  These guys raped you.  If they bulk, let them know you'll file an official complaint with the appropriate tax and business bodies.  Also, you might let them know that a growing number of Pittsburgh-area gun owners are hearing about this.  If it's not cleared up, I, for one, will never, ever shop there.

Let us know how it goes.

interesting.
I've been a member there for about 20 years. Not that this matters but the owner is going thru a bad divorce so his mind is pre-occupied. Thats prolly why he doesn't remember you're a member. Most people who shoot there are not. No excuse for this though. Just do what every other person does who Tex pisses off. Go shoot and "forget " to pay the range fees. That really PISSES HIM OFF  

Unless ...of couse, you've already done that and he's re-cooping  

I can attest that Thekatar pays every time he shoots.  I go shooting with him.  I know that we all have our own problems and I am sure that "Tex" is no exception.

But, when you are running a business, you have to keep in mind that your business generates money which keeps you from having other problems.  For him to charge a tax that he is not entitled by the state to charge is only creating more problems for him.  

Thekatar and I are very consciencious shooters who are nothing but respectful of other shooters at the range.  We don't leave our trash laying everywhere.  We don't destroy the shooting stands.  We don't take large hunks of trash only to leave them after they have been shot to bits.  We pay every time we shoot.  We go out of our way to respect the by-laws of the club.  

Just because we don't shoot sporting clays, doesn't mean we are second-class shooters.  

For him to charge my friend $147 for a transfer is unacceptable.  My money and my time will go elsewhere until the issue is resolved.  

Quoted: I can attest that Thekatar pays every time he shoots.  I go shooting with him.  I know that we all have our own problems and I am sure that "Tex" is no exception. But, when you are running a business, you have to keep in mind that your business generates money which keeps you from having other problems.  For him to charge a tax that he is not entitled by the state to charge is only creating more problems for him.   Thekatar and I are very consciencious shooters who are nothing but respectful of other shooters at the range.  We don't leave our trash laying everywhere.  We don't destroy the shooting stands.  We don't take large hunks of trash only to leave them after they have been shot to bits.  We pay every time we shoot.  We go out of our way to respect the by-laws of the club.   Just because we don't shoot sporting clays, doesn't mean we are second-class shooters.   For him to charge my friend $147 for a transfer is unacceptable.  My money and my time will go elsewhere until the issue is resolved.

I'm not insinuating...just joking in a bad situation. There are no 2nd class shooters there. Its a GUN club...not a sporting club. I would approach him and see if you can resolve this. I totally agree that 147 bucks is totally unacceptable. If you can't find common ground, do your transfers at John Browns Armory in Rochester. Tim is a real nice guy and fair. Next time I'm out there, I'll see what the scoop is.

He was pissed you didnt purchase it from him and he put his 10% mark up on it.
I know a dealer who will not do ANY tranfers with out adding his 10% on the normal cost of the gun if he sold it.

Thank you for the tip.  I'll check that place out sometime.

I would like to see the situation end in a good way but it doesn't look too promising.

It's good to know that there is a dealer around that is willing to do transfers and not give a bunch of heat about it.  A happy customer is a customer who spends money.  Some businesses forget that. :)

There is just one guy who is the owner of Greater Pittburgh Trap and Skeet, he is the FFL and that is the business end of the Greater Pittburgh Gun Club. Interestingly, he is not the club president. He also lives there, it is all his property as far as I know. So he is pretty much king of his domain there.

He should not have done this to me. Even if you figure in 6% sales tax for a sale that he did not make, that would be $75 dollars for the instant check and the transfer. And that is with the "member discount."

When he told me $147 I thought he was pulling my leg - then I saw it on the cash register. My jaw hit the floor and I shouted, "What?!"

I told him that was way more expensive than anything I'd ever heard of, that it was supposed to be around $30 (I was standing there like a dope with $40 in my hand.) He mentioned tax and I asked how there could be tax with an out-of-state sale. He said that "there has to be tax" and the other dealer "forwarded his tax info." You can see above what the other dealer had to say about that.

He made a conscious choice to do this to me because he knew he had me over a barrel. He knew I liked to shoot there (despite his act of not remembering who I was - yeah, right) and he knew that I was very happy to have my increasingly rare Russian rifle (which he belittled me over spending $1200 on.) The deal was done and that left me in a tight spot. Frankly, I was stunned.

I don't know if it's because of my relative youth (early thirties), because I do not shoot sporting clays, or a combination.

Or does he charge confiscatory rates to anybody who needs an FFL transfer? Remember - I asked about it up front and he didn't try to dissuade me in any way. He made no noise about me buying from another dealer.

Now I know why.

The following is the email I sent to GPGC:

Greater Pgh Gun Club:

I would like a partial refund for the $147.00 you charged me for an FFL transfer.

You proceeded to charge me $147.00 for “the transfer, the instant check, sales tax and associated club costs.” You also made sure to let me know that this price reflected a “member discount.” You told me there would have been no tax if it had been a purchase from a private individual.

I did the deal, I secured the FFL to ship to and that was it. The service rendered is the transfer. I did the legwork. The only tax is on the transfer fee. How can there be tax on the gun?

So I contacted the original dealer that I bought the gun from:

The reply:

"Dear ***, You're right. That's ridiculous. The tax info. that I 'forwarded' to him was simply my Georgia Sales Tax ID number, which is photocopied to all of my F.F.L. copies. You are correct in assuming no tax for an out-of-state sale."

It appears that what you really did was charge me (a dues-paying member) a penalty for buying a gun from another dealer. The Russian Tiger Carbine is a fairly rare gun that you didn't have and couldn't order. Even at 6.0% "sales tax", that's still $75.00 for the FFL transfer and instant check fee.

It is probably "technically" legal for you to do what you did. I messed up by trusting you not to overcharge a dues-paying member of your club who does business with you frequently. Yes, since the spring, I have shot there at least once a week, occasionally buying some ammo and targets, and I always pay before I shoot. We have spoken on numerous occasions, but every time you see me you ask me if I'm a member. Obviously my patronage/membership is not very important to you.

I made sure to consult with many people who enjoy shooting in the Pittsburgh area before I contacted you. Here is a sample of what they had to say:

They ripped you off and you should tell them that you'd like a refund of your tax money for the actual price of the rifle or you'll happily inform the PA State Dept. of Revenue.

That is a real lousy thing to do to a good customer.

If they don't refund your money I would tell them what to do with their club . That's no way to treat members.

I am appalled that a club you belong and pay dues to could do such a shady thing. IMHO that is THEFT BY DECEPTION and should be criminal!

I am asking you for the refund of the full amount of tax that you charged me, $72.00 for 6.0% or $84.00 for 7.0%, whichever it was.

I never thought that a gun club which I belonged to would treat a member like this.

I await your reply,

Thekatar

A few years ago, a dealer did the same thing to me. He charged me NYS sales tax on a rifle I already paid for, from Illinois. I was absolutely livid. I blew a gasket on him, because I too was a good customer. I had other customers in the store yelling at him, including people he has known for twenty years, that it was total BS, wrong and illegal. On the way out the door, I threatened to call the state on him and said I would never buy anything from him again and I would make sure my friends wouldn't either.

I would definitely confront him about it, don't let him get away with this BS.

If you get no satisfaction from the dealer, let him know you're applying for a refund of the unnecesaary state sales tax directly from the state. It IS supposed to go to the state, not pad his profit.

Start here: www.revenue.state.pa.us

Good luck!

We have met the enemy and they are us!  This type of business practice is so contemptable, I simply can not comment any further.  I wish you good luck in retrieving your funds.  A sad day for gun owners everywhere.

Regards,
Gary

Tagged for updates

This is disgusting... he is a stain on the reputation of sportsmen.

Ive never even heard of something like this... my FFL treats me right... just did a transfer for me for $22.

Give this guy hell and keep us updated.

- BUCC_Guy

I've never paid anymore than $25 when doing transfers and I'm only 45 miles north of Pittsburgh.  THAT is just plain shameful.

Fucked up story.  I hope things work out on your end.  (I saw your link to this in GD)

I dont really know Tex but he was as nice as he could be when I went up for PeteG's Basic tactical carbine class.  You should IM PeteG, slimeball, tonyf and a couple of the others that are in the tactics forum and alert them as to what happened.  They teach the classes at GPGC.

the most i have ever paid  was 15 +insta check. thats absurd, he has no right to charge you tax, he is not responsible for that, ony the transfer and the background check.

I sent the above message as an email and also USPS certified mail. We shall see if/when I get my receipt from the Post Office. Then we will all know that the issue has been properly raised - and we will all judge the response.

Thekatar,
You were hosed. I am an FFL transfer dealer in Pittsburgh. I charge $20.00. No other fee's or "plus this or plus that". Flat Twenty Bucks! They are not to collect sales tax from you if you purchased the firearm from out of state. It is your responsibilty to pay the "PA 6% Use Tax" to the state. I was told this by the PA Dept. of Revenue. Go get your tax money back. Next time, come see me, you will know what the fee is. Check out my website at www.gunrunnersofpa.com for all of the info on me. Have a good one!

I talked to Mr. Tex Freund of Greater Pittsburgh Gun Club.

He started off the conversation by asking me "Have you ever bought a car..."
I cut him off and told him, "This isn't about cars, this is about guns."

His reply?

"They're both registered. You need to pay tax on items that are registered."

He let me know that if a gun "goes through his books" that means it is just like he sold me the gun. I told him that he did not sell me the gun, but that a dealer in Georgia did.

He told me that it was the same as if I came into his store, looked through his books, and said, "Hey Tex, order this gun for me."

Now the breakdown of the cost:

He said he charged me $15 for the instant check, transfer etc.

5% for "club costs"

6% sales tax

on a $1200 rifle. That I bought from a dealer in Georgia.

BTW, he cut me a break. They usually charge 10% club cost.

I asked him who the rifle was registered with. He said, "the State." I let him know that that was interesting since there is no registration of guns in PA or nationally, that it was unconstitutional. He seemed taken aback and paused. "Well, that's what they call the instant-check." Yeah, sure.

He also tried to tell me about how private individuals out-of-state must ship through an FFL - which I immediately corrected him on.

He told me that he wanted to keep me as a member, but it was not worth it to him if he had to "pay the tax for me." He told me I "wasn't listening."

He let me know that he has been in business a long time and "know what I'm talking about." I told him that I have communicated with many PA shooters and FFL holders and dealers and that he is the only one doing business this way. "Are they all wrong?" I asked.

His reply: "My way is the only right way to do it."

So now we see what type of business man and friend to the Second Amendment that we are dealing with. If you feel that this is wrong and want to express your opinion, here is some contact information:

(724)796-9111
[email protected]

I sent the following email:

Sir, I am writing in reference to an issue that has been raised by one of your members on a national web board that deals with firearms. After researching the laws regarding both Federal and State sales taxes, I have confirmed that you are in error in your methods of dealing with private sales of firearms purchased from out of state, or even in state for that matter. You have neither the legal right nor the moral right to charge any individual a sales tax on such a purchase. As a resident of PA I am appalled that you would conduct your business in such a manner. I intend to forward information on this situation to my state and local representatives as well as post links to the web site in which this was brought to our attention in every forum I visit. I too am an employee at a Federally Liscenced Firearms dealer in the state of PA and we do a large volume of the types of transfers you did for this individual. I can assure you that word of your (probably) criminal activity will be spread far and wide.

If I get a response I will post it.

I made sure to let "Tex" or Constance or whatever his name is know my opinion also....

Hello, I recently heard from a friend of mine who I shoot with on a regular basis.  He was a member of Greater Pgh and he and I shot each week at Greater Pgh.  I paid the non-member fee each week since April to shoot there and he paid the member fee to shoot.  We never skipped out on payment.  We never left our trash anywhere.  We were always courteous to our fellow shooters.  We were always safety conscious.   My friend recently purchased a rare rifle, a Russian Tigr carbine, from a dealer in Georgia.  My friend used Tex to do the FFL.  In any case where he has made out-of-state purchases (something that he is more than familiar with), he pays anywhere from $15 to $30 to do the transfer and any NICS fees.  There is no tax on this transfer and there is usually no “fees.”  Unfortunately, when dealing with Tex, Tex has decided to charge very large fee (5% of $1200 is a LOT of money for a transfer that could have easily been done by a guy closer to home for $20) and charged 6% state tax. Just so you know, charging a state tax on something that was purchased out of state is unconstitutional and therefore ILLEGAL.  I will not go through the LARGE NUMBERS of court cases on this subject but it has been proven over and over again that this is a violation of the Interstate Commerce Clause of the US Constitution.    If anything, my friend would be responsible for a PA 6% “Use tax” that he and he alone would be responsible for reporting.  Business owners are not given the power to collect this 6% “Use tax.”  (If you don’t believe me, you can check the PA Dept of Revenue website). The explanation of this tax was unacceptable. Tex actually used the term “Gun Registration” in the conversation with my friend.   Tex, acting as an agent of the club has not only broken the law, he has also pushed away 2 shooters and their friends from the club.  These are shooters who abide but the club laws and PAY every time they shoot (unlike a lot of people we see) Because of the treatment that Tex has done to my friend, I will no longer shoot at Greater Pgh.  I also will not become a member (something that I was seriously considering doing).  I will also make sure to tell every shooter that I know about this experience so that they can make the decision on their own.   Thank you,

"Gun Registration?"  This Tex is speaking like a big ol' Liberazi!

I got screwed over by a local dealer in a very similar way. This guy was like the worst gun store owner in the history of the universe. All the stuff he sold was utter crap, this store was so bad that he was infamous around the entire state. Anyway, I wanted to transfer a 1911 through him that I was buying on line on gun broker. He said the transfer fee would be $25. When I went to pick up the gun, he charged me the $25, plus "his cut" of the reail price, the difference between the retail price and the price I paid for the gun. He also charged me for sales tax, saying that he had to pay the sales tax to the state since it was an out of state transfer. He then told me stories about how lots of people who transfered guns through him failed the background check, and so he kept their guns because he couldn't give them to the customer or return them. He was trying to intimidate me by insinuating that he could lie about the NICS check success in order to steal my gun, basically. I didn't want to argue and have to go through a ton of trouble, so I just paid the $120 transfer fee.

hunters warehouse in state college??

OH hell no!! if that shithead said I failed the NIC check I would go to another dealer get an approved check and then tell his sorry ass to give me my gun. Damn hearing shit like this pisses me off
 FREE

Quoted: I got screwed over by a local dealer in a very similar way. This guy was like the worst gun store owner in the history of the universe. All the stuff he sold was utter crap, this store was so bad that he was infamous around the entire state. Anyway, I wanted to transfer a 1911 through him that I was buying on line on gun broker. He said the transfer fee would be $25. When I went to pick up the gun, he charged me the $25, plus "his cut" of the reail price, the difference between the retail price and the price I paid for the gun. He also charged me for sales tax, saying that he had to pay the sales tax to the state since it was an out of state transfer. He then told me stories about how lots of people who transfered guns through him failed the background check, and so he kept their guns because he couldn't give them to the customer or return them. He was trying to intimidate me by insinuating that he could lie about the NICS check success in order to steal my gun, basically. I didn't want to argue and have to go through a ton of trouble, so I just paid the $120 transfer fee.

Quoted: hunters warehouse in state college??

yep, lol. See, that guy is so bad everyone knows him. He actually went out of buisness earlier this year though. Amazing he lasted as long as he did to begin with...

Thanks for all the support, fellas. We need to stick together. I am truly disgusted that an FFL would treat a Second Amendment supporter this way. Remember, he gave me "the member discount."

$147.00

What a POS.

YOu are a member and have to PAY to use the facilities? What a joke....

Find another club....

Quoted: What a POS. YOu are a member and have to PAY to use the facilities? What a joke.... Find another club....

The membership dues are $35 a year after the initial fee and then the shooting fees are very low, like $3.00. The range is nice (although it has become run-down recently??) and there are quite a few facilities. That is one reason why I am so disappointed; myself and a friend shot there every week this year and now we will boycott this place.

All because of greed.

A travesty.

Yes, this is p!ss-poor behavior on Tex's part. It WILL be a topic of conversation on the way down on Friday and possibly there as well. As ARFcom members make up a significant # of FIRE attendees, I think Pete will want to be made aware of this unfortunate situation.

I would love to join all of you fellas in your training and your shoots but I cannot in good faith patronize GPGC at this point in time.

Let me know if you have training at another local place.

Best regards,

Thekatar

How about that expensive, but nice, club on the parkway rest.. Bullseye something???

I stoped by there one time, like $500 bucks a year for the best level membership, but damned nice place???

The Ohio ARFCOM group is strongly contemplating attending the F.I.R.E. Basic Carbine Class, too.  
So possibly count out 8 more guys if nothing is done to make this right for you.

Tagged for any more details.

Finding another club to hold our courses is unlikely. GPGC has a very liberal policy among most gun clubs in SW PA meaning you can just about do anything you want within reason. Most other clubs won't let you draw from a holster, no rapid fire and on and on and on. Regarding Bullseye or Anthony Arms, etc., I don't think they have outdoor ranges and that puts severe limits on what kind of material you can offer in a defensive oriented training course.

Sounds like he may change his mind and start charging you to do it, at anytime, without warning.  This issue speaks directly to his character.

tagged .

Tagged.....

Tex is wrong on this one...

I hope he makes this right...

Dan Tucker
UPstate NY

I liked that place too....

Tagged to see what happens...

Tagged.

It turns my stomach to hear gun shops/clubs pull this kind of BS on their own people

I hope the group going down this weekend can talk some sense into this assclown.

This is so wrong, even by NJ standars.  I will be moving into PA by the end of the month, and be carefull of not steping into that place.  Hope you get your money back but I honestly doubt it as you are not dealing woth an honest person.  I'll learn from yur experience.

I would file a complaint with the BBB..  oh and if you paid with your credit card, I would dispute the charges 100%.