User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 7:38:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Something smells fucky here.
The dealer needs to transfer them as what he received them as. If they came into him as pistol, they gonout as pistol same as receiver. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 7:49:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Doesn't sound right to me, either. I believe this dealer is likely hesitant to speak up to his IOI, but the IOI is wrong here.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 8:45:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Your friend needs to talk to that IOI's supervisor.
The IOI needs to read the definitions of pistol and firearm frame or receiver in ATF regs. Or the IOI could just read the instructions for Question 24. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 8:54:41 PM EDT
[#4]
I'd think they should transfer as receivers.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 (29)The term “handgun” means— (A)a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and (B)any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled. Without a short stock, it does not meet the legal definition of a handgun. YMMV |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 9:29:19 PM EDT
[#5]
FWIW, I think the IOI is full of crap. According to OP these are UPPERS. No reason I know of that they would even be logged in or out as anything. In the process of assembling several thousand ARs, and selling thousands of stripped uppers, lowers, parts kits, barrels, stocks, etc, etc, we NEVER logged ANYTHING but the LOWER RECEIVERS and any complete rifles in/out of our bound book. My IOI never said a single word about anything being wrong, EVER.
Sum tin fucky going on here. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 9:34:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Trying to help out a friend with a situation he's gotten himself into. He has a number MK IV upper receivers awaiting transfer from his dealer and before he could get there, his IOI came in and told the dealer they must be transferred as pistols instead of other firearms (receivers). It's pretty obvious that Question 24 of Section C makes this issue clear but the dealer was advised to transfer in this manner by his IOI. I've spoken to the dealer and he's agreed to forward any guidance to the IOI in an effort to get this straightened out, but he wants to see it from ATF directly. I seem to recall a published guidance on this years back but I'm having trouble finding it now. Is there anyone here who might be able to help me out? I believe such a thing does or used to exist on ATF's website? These are bare MK IV uppers; barrel, upper and sights. No frame, no trigger, no bolt, etc. Thanks guys. So the dealer is not xferring them to you, err I mean your friend until he sorts this out with IOI? How did the IOI even get involved? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 9:35:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FWIW, I think the IOI is full of crap. According to OP these are UPPERS. No reason I know of that they would even be logged in or out as anything. In the process of assembling several thousand ARs, and selling thousands of stripped uppers, lowers, parts kits, barrels, stocks, etc, etc, we NEVER logged ANYTHING but the LOWER RECEIVERS and any complete rifles in/out of our bound book. My IOI never said a single word about anything being wrong, EVER. Sum tin fucky going on here. Ruger MKx uppers are the firearm. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 9:47:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FWIW, I think the IOI is full of crap. According to OP these are UPPERS. No reason I know of that they would even be logged in or out as anything. In the process of assembling several thousand ARs, and selling thousands of stripped uppers, lowers, parts kits, barrels, stocks, etc, etc, we NEVER logged ANYTHING but the LOWER RECEIVERS and any complete rifles in/out of our bound book. My IOI never said a single word about anything being wrong, EVER. Sum tin fucky going on here. Never held a Ruger .22 pistol? Look where the serial# is. While the lower receiver on an AR is the firearm, thats not true for all "split" receivers. (Being addressed in the new pending regulations from ATF) |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 9:51:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ruger MKx uppers are the firearm. OOPS, my mistake. I misread the OP and mistakenly thought he was talking about AR uppers. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 9:52:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Still don't see how an AR upper of any sort would require being recorded in one's bound book. Unless there's something new out there I'm not aware of. I mean its possible......... Perhaps you should read the OP's post? Cause he made no mention of ARs.... These are bare MK IV uppers; barrel, upper and sights. No frame, no trigger, no bolt, etc. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 9:54:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Never held a Ruger .22 pistol? Look where the serial# is. While the lower receiver on an AR is the firearm, thats not true for all "split" receivers. (Being addressed in the new pending regulations from ATF) Yeah, I've owned several over the years. Never had just a separate upper come through anywhere I worked. My mistake. Misread the OP and somehow thought he was talking about ARs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 11:53:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your friend needs to talk to that IOI's supervisor. The IOI needs to read the definitions of pistol and firearm frame or receiver in ATF regs. Or the IOI could just read the instructions for Question 24. That's what I was thinking. Admittedly, I don't have much experience dealing with this issue. I'd planned to look for contact information for the IOI's office and recommend my buddy contact the supervisor. He's not very well versed in gun stuff or regs, etc. which is why he asked me for advice. I told him I'd look for the guidance and I quoted Question 24 from the 4473 to him but I think it went over his head lol. I gave the dealer a call and mentioned this to him as well, and he seemed uncertain but he did ask if I could send him a link to guidance for this on ATF's website. I get the feeling I'm gonna wind up doing the talking here, so I hope this goes easier than I expect it to.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2022 11:54:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd think they should transfer as receivers. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 Without a short stock, it does not meet the legal definition of a handgun. YMMV Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd think they should transfer as receivers. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921 (29)The term "handgun" means (A)a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and (B)any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled. Without a short stock, it does not meet the legal definition of a handgun. YMMV |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 12:17:44 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the dealer is not xferring them to you, err I mean your friend until he sorts this out with IOI? How did the IOI even get involved? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Trying to help out a friend with a situation he's gotten himself into. He has a number MK IV upper receivers awaiting transfer from his dealer and before he could get there, his IOI came in and told the dealer they must be transferred as pistols instead of other firearms (receivers). It's pretty obvious that Question 24 of Section C makes this issue clear but the dealer was advised to transfer in this manner by his IOI. I've spoken to the dealer and he's agreed to forward any guidance to the IOI in an effort to get this straightened out, but he wants to see it from ATF directly. I seem to recall a published guidance on this years back but I'm having trouble finding it now. Is there anyone here who might be able to help me out? I believe such a thing does or used to exist on ATF's website? These are bare MK IV uppers; barrel, upper and sights. No frame, no trigger, no bolt, etc. Thanks guys. So the dealer is not xferring them to you, err I mean your friend until he sorts this out with IOI? How did the IOI even get involved? My understanding is that the IOI got involved after the receivers showed up. I guess an unexpected inspection maybe? It could be the dealer called and asked for advice on the matter. I'm not really certain, though I could ask. My understanding is they made a deal to transfer the receivers ahead of time. My buddy told him the a number of receivers and asked for a price. They agreed on everything. The dealer transferred the first few uppers as receivers with no problems. While waiting on the next box to show up, somewhere in there the IOI got involved and while arranging to pick up the next box, the dealer told him he talked to his IOI who informed them they would have to transfer as handguns, a multiple sale and disposition form would have to be filled out on all of them or he could pick them up one week at a time, and now, the price is going up $500 more. Maybe it's bullshit and the dealer is looking for more money. I'm not sure what his plan is currently, though I did explain to him the IOI is wrong and that he should try to contact their supervisor. I'd hoped to be able to give him the guidance I thought I remembered seeing previously, in the hopes of getting this taken care of quickly. I know there is some good advice in this forum, so I thought I'd see what you guys think. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 12:32:47 AM EDT
[#15]
maybe I am being paranoid but it sounds like the IOI is pushing this so the ATF gets a multiple handgun sales report (backdoor registery) since he is buying so many
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 2:19:26 AM EDT
[#16]
What state? Federally they may be “firearms”, “receivers” or “barreled actions”, but state definitions may be different. For example here in Washington State, those would be considered “pistols”.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 7:52:17 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what I was thinking. Admittedly, I don't have much experience dealing with this issue. I'd planned to look for contact information for the IOI's office and recommend my buddy contact the supervisor. He's not very well versed in gun stuff or regs, etc. which is why he asked me for advice. I told him I'd look for the guidance and I quoted Question 24 from the 4473 to him but I think it went over his head lol. I gave the dealer a call and mentioned this to him as well, and he seemed uncertain but he did ask if I could send him a link to guidance for this on ATF's website. I get the feeling I'm gonna wind up doing the talking here, so I hope this goes easier than I expect it to. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Your friend needs to talk to that IOI's supervisor. The IOI needs to read the definitions of pistol and firearm frame or receiver in ATF regs. Or the IOI could just read the instructions for Question 24. That's what I was thinking. Admittedly, I don't have much experience dealing with this issue. I'd planned to look for contact information for the IOI's office and recommend my buddy contact the supervisor. He's not very well versed in gun stuff or regs, etc. which is why he asked me for advice. I told him I'd look for the guidance and I quoted Question 24 from the 4473 to him but I think it went over his head lol. I gave the dealer a call and mentioned this to him as well, and he seemed uncertain but he did ask if I could send him a link to guidance for this on ATF's website. I get the feeling I'm gonna wind up doing the talking here, so I hope this goes easier than I expect it to. Part in bold. No offense op, but if you aren't the ffl, nor the person trying to get these guns/receivers why do you think the ffl or lol ioi would even speak to you. I'm an ffl, if customer A's buddy comes into my shop and even starts talking to me about a situation like this, I'm telling him to kick rocks and returning the remaining items back to the ffl I got them from. If you called my ioi and inserted yourself into my business, I'd be super pissed. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 7:56:15 AM EDT
[#18]
Were the receivers originally part of a complete pistol?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 9:17:34 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Were the receivers originally part of a complete pistol? Does not matter. A licensee records the type of firearm he receives, not what it can/may/possibly be reassembled as. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 9:39:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My buddy told him the a number of receivers and asked for a price. They agreed on everything. The dealer transferred the first few uppers as receivers with no problems. While waiting on the next box to show up, somewhere in there the IOI got involved and while arranging to pick up the next box, the dealer told him he talked to his IOI who informed them they would have to transfer as handguns, a multiple sale and disposition form would have to be filled out on all of them or he could pick them up one week at a time, and now, the price is going up $500 more. I highly doubt an IOI is going to tell the dealer to do a structured sale to avoid the Multiple sale form. Curious why your buddy did not just take the remaining ones as handguns. So what? No skin off his back how the 4473 gets filled out. I would want to get my guns out of there ASAP. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 9:40:34 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: maybe I am being paranoid but it sounds like the IOI is pushing this so the ATF gets a multiple handgun sales report (backdoor registery) since he is buying so many IOI could have just photographed the page if they wanted the record. I am doubting there is an IOI and this is just the dealer. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 9:43:33 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am doubting there is an IOI and this is just the dealer. This. IOI's don't just drop in to say hi. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 9:50:39 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Part in bold. No offense op, but if you aren't the ffl, nor the person trying to get these guns/receivers why do you think the ffl or lol ioi would even speak to you. I'm an ffl, if customer A's buddy comes into my shop and even starts talking to me about a situation like this, I'm telling him to kick rocks and returning the remaining items back to the ffl I got them from. If you called my ioi and inserted yourself into my business, I'd be super pissed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Your friend needs to talk to that IOI's supervisor. The IOI needs to read the definitions of pistol and firearm frame or receiver in ATF regs. Or the IOI could just read the instructions for Question 24. That's what I was thinking. Admittedly, I don't have much experience dealing with this issue. I'd planned to look for contact information for the IOI's office and recommend my buddy contact the supervisor. He's not very well versed in gun stuff or regs, etc. which is why he asked me for advice. I told him I'd look for the guidance and I quoted Question 24 from the 4473 to him but I think it went over his head lol. I gave the dealer a call and mentioned this to him as well, and he seemed uncertain but he did ask if I could send him a link to guidance for this on ATF's website. I get the feeling I'm gonna wind up doing the talking here, so I hope this goes easier than I expect it to. Part in bold. No offense op, but if you aren't the ffl, nor the person trying to get these guns/receivers why do you think the ffl or lol ioi would even speak to you. I'm an ffl, if customer A's buddy comes into my shop and even starts talking to me about a situation like this, I'm telling him to kick rocks and returning the remaining items back to the ffl I got them from. If you called my ioi and inserted yourself into my business, I'd be super pissed. I did approach this as a polite and informative discussion and the dealer did seem receptive to it. He seemed as if he didn't know any better or perhaps was unsure. Could also be he's trying to get more money. I don't know him well enough to say. I also intend to approach things with the IOI and/or supervisor in a general way, if possible, so as not to create grief for the dealer, as best as possible. Having said that, these are government employees, and incorrect advice will affect a number of gun buyers. Trying to get it corrected benefits not only future customers, but the the dealer and the IOI, whether they choose to see it that way or not. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 9:54:28 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does not matter. A licensee records the type of firearm he receives, not what it can/may/possibly be reassembled as. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Were the receivers originally part of a complete pistol? Does not matter. A licensee records the type of firearm he receives, not what it can/may/possibly be reassembled as. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 9:54:42 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I also intend to approach things with the IOI and/or supervisor in a general way, if possible, so as not to create grief for the dealer, as best as possible. Dealer is phucking your friend over by jacking up price by $500 and not xferring them immediately to friend. What state is this and how many uppers? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 9:55:33 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: DogtownTom, you're not aware of any published guidance showing this, are you? I wonder if this may be the cause of the issue. The IOI may be mistaken, perhaps thinking they need to be transferred as pistols if they started out that way. It is in the CFR. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:08:17 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I highly doubt an IOI is going to tell the dealer to do a structured sale to avoid the Multiple sale form. Curious why your buddy did not just take the remaining ones as handguns. So what? No skin off his back how the 4473 gets filled out. I would want to get my guns out of there ASAP. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My buddy told him the a number of receivers and asked for a price. They agreed on everything. The dealer transferred the first few uppers as receivers with no problems. While waiting on the next box to show up, somewhere in there the IOI got involved and while arranging to pick up the next box, the dealer told him he talked to his IOI who informed them they would have to transfer as handguns, a multiple sale and disposition form would have to be filled out on all of them or he could pick them up one week at a time, and now, the price is going up $500 more. I highly doubt an IOI is going to tell the dealer to do a structured sale to avoid the Multiple sale form. Curious why your buddy did not just take the remaining ones as handguns. So what? No skin off his back how the 4473 gets filled out. I would want to get my guns out of there ASAP. As to why he didn't take the remaining ones, I believe it's simply an issue of not enough time. The second box of uppers just arrived and he simply hasn't been to the dealer to pick them up yet. They spoke for the first time on this second box of uppers yesterday, when he was arranging a time to come pick them up. (Dealer is appt. only I believe.) After speaking with the dealer, he asked me what I thought. I believe his concern is more about the extra $500 after they'd already agreed on a price, rather than how the 4473 is filled out, though I can't imagine he's in love with the multiple sale form, when these should be transferring as receivers. I'll ask his reasoning on this later to be certain but that's what I gathered. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:11:24 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. IOI's don't just drop in to say hi. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am doubting there is an IOI and this is just the dealer. This. IOI's don't just drop in to say hi. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:13:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dealer is phucking your friend over by jacking up price by $500 and not xferring them immediately to friend. What state is this and how many uppers? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I also intend to approach things with the IOI and/or supervisor in a general way, if possible, so as not to create grief for the dealer, as best as possible. Dealer is phucking your friend over by jacking up price by $500 and not xferring them immediately to friend. What state is this and how many uppers? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:18:02 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It is in the CFR. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: DogtownTom, you're not aware of any published guidance showing this, are you? I wonder if this may be the cause of the issue. The IOI may be mistaken, perhaps thinking they need to be transferred as pistols if they started out that way. It is in the CFR. Maybe it was years back, when they changed the 4473? Change before last or something. I'm gonna do some more searching. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:18:56 AM EDT
[#31]
I'm going to agree with the IOI here. Ruger doesn't sell stripped MK IV uppers so these started life as a complete pistol and the upper receiver is the serialized part. Stripping them down doesn't change their status as a pistol.
ETA - why does this even matter? What are you planning on doing with these that makes it a big deal what they are transferred as? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:20:22 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll word that differently. The IOI told the dealer they had to be transferred as handguns. The dealer relayed this to my buddy and informed him of the multiple sale form; giving him the option of coming weekly with more money or getting them all at once and filling out the forms, with more money. $500 more money, with the amount being increased by the dealer with the stated reason being having to fill out the multiple sales forms or the multiple 4473s over a number of weeks. As to why he didn't take the remaining ones, I believe it's simply an issue of not enough time. The second box of uppers just arrived and he simply hasn't been to the dealer to pick them up yet. They spoke for the first time on this second box of uppers yesterday, when he was arranging a time to come pick them up. (Dealer is appt. only I believe.) After speaking with the dealer, he asked me what I thought. I believe his concern is more about the extra $500 after they'd already agreed on a price, rather than how the 4473 is filled out, though I can't imagine he's in love with the multiple sale form, when these should be transferring as receivers. I'll ask his reasoning on this later to be certain but that's what I gathered. Tell buddy when all uppers are in, go and get them all. Do not be part of a conspiracy to avoid the Multiple Sale form. Get guns out of FFL ASAP. Never mind a structured sale on 2 boxes of uppers would take weeks to complete and dealer would only jack price again and literally be an episode of tales of stupid criminals. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:21:54 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm going to agree with the IOI here. Ruger doesn't sell stripped MK IV uppers so these started life as a complete pistol and the upper receiver is the serialized part. Stripping them down doesn't change their status as a pistol. You are wrong too. Not an FFL are you? Never read CFR or 4473 Instructions have you? Perhaps you should stay the phuck out of the FFL forum. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:31:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tell buddy when all uppers are in, go and get them all. Do not be part of a conspiracy to avoid the Multiple Sale form. Get guns out of FFL ASAP. Never mind a structured sale on 2 boxes of uppers would take weeks to complete and dealer would only jack price again and literally be an episode of tales of stupid criminals. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'll word that differently. The IOI told the dealer they had to be transferred as handguns. The dealer relayed this to my buddy and informed him of the multiple sale form; giving him the option of coming weekly with more money or getting them all at once and filling out the forms, with more money. $500 more money, with the amount being increased by the dealer with the stated reason being having to fill out the multiple sales forms or the multiple 4473s over a number of weeks. As to why he didn't take the remaining ones, I believe it's simply an issue of not enough time. The second box of uppers just arrived and he simply hasn't been to the dealer to pick them up yet. They spoke for the first time on this second box of uppers yesterday, when he was arranging a time to come pick them up. (Dealer is appt. only I believe.) After speaking with the dealer, he asked me what I thought. I believe his concern is more about the extra $500 after they'd already agreed on a price, rather than how the 4473 is filled out, though I can't imagine he's in love with the multiple sale form, when these should be transferring as receivers. I'll ask his reasoning on this later to be certain but that's what I gathered. Tell buddy when all uppers are in, go and get them all. Do not be part of a conspiracy to avoid the Multiple Sale form. Get guns out of FFL ASAP. Never mind a structured sale on 2 boxes of uppers would take weeks to complete and dealer would only jack price again and literally be an episode of tales of stupid criminals. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:31:36 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do not be part of a conspiracy to avoid the Multiple Sale form. What is wrong with picking up 1 at a time to avoid the Multiple Disposition report? I understand it will take longer, but I'm not aware of it being illegal to space out acquisitions to avoid doing the form? I know "Structuring" bank deposits and withdrawals to keep them below the reporting requirements is illegal but I have never heard that applied to firearms. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:53:35 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is wrong with picking up 1 at a time to avoid the Multiple Disposition report? There is no upside and ATF is going to find out anyway. All you are doing is delaying getting your guns and bringing more scrutiny to yourself. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 11:27:04 AM EDT
[#37]
1. Dealer jacking up the price of the transfer by $500 tells me all I need to know about that dealer.
2. Dealer may have an imaginary IOI that stops by to visit him. 3. OP needs to tell us what state the dealer is in. While it doesn't change how the dealer abides by federal law, other state laws may apply. 4. While "structuring" sales to avoid filling out a Multiple Sale of Handgun form is not illegal, it WILL be noticed by an IOI during a compliance inspection. 5. Firearm frames and receivers are clearly not handguns under ATF regulations. 6. The dealer filling out a Multiple Sale form on a firearm that IS NOT a handgun is a violation. 7. The dealer filling out the Form 4473 and describing those receivers as a handgun is a violation. 8. The dealer should know exactly what ATF defines as a handgun.....and barreled receivers aren't. 9. Not all IOI's are brilliant, asking to speak to their supervisor when you disagree is normal. As is asking the IOI to point out the applicable regulation. 10. The dealer should know all of the above. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 11:46:06 AM EDT
[#38]
Ok, this makes sense.
Dealer is nervous, I'll bet money no ioi is involved. If there is one involved the atf WILL contact him about these guns/receivers. Dealer wants to make more money, that's it. Tell your buddy to suck it up and go get his shit. The atf ain't gonna make the dealer lower his pricing. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 11:46:48 AM EDT
[#39]
You guys have me convinced, in addition to the $500 thing, that I need to tell my buddy to find another dealer after this. I have a feeling the $500 thing will convince him anyway though. I got the impression he maybe liked the guy and he's being too nice with him.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 11:55:49 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1. Dealer jacking up the price of the transfer by $500 tells me all I need to know about that dealer. 2. Dealer may have an imaginary IOI that stops by to visit him. 3. OP needs to tell us what state the dealer is in. While it doesn't change how the dealer abides by federal law, other state laws may apply. 4. While "structuring" sales to avoid filling out a Multiple Sale of Handgun form is not illegal, it WILL be noticed by an IOI during a compliance inspection. 5. Firearm frames and receivers are clearly not handguns under ATF regulations. 6. The dealer filling out a Multiple Sale form on a firearm that IS NOT a handgun is a violation. 7. The dealer filling out the Form 4473 and describing those receivers as a handgun is a violation. 8. The dealer should know exactly what ATF defines as a handgun.....and barreled receivers aren't. 9. Not all IOI's are brilliant, asking to speak to their supervisor when you disagree is normal. As is asking the IOI to point out the applicable regulation. 10. The dealer should know all of the above. I don't think my buddy would mind at all about the multiple sale form, though I do think it's a bs excuse for him to make another $500. Is there any sort of published information on filling out the multiple sale form and describing them as handguns being a violation? I'd love give that to my buddy when he goes to pick up his property. Given the $500 ripoff the guy's trying to pull, he needs to sweat a little bit. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 11:57:19 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm going to agree with the IOI here. Ruger doesn't sell stripped MK IV uppers so these started life as a complete pistol and the upper receiver is the serialized part. Stripping them down doesn't change their status as a pistol. ETA - why does this even matter? What are you planning on doing with these that makes it a big deal what they are transferred as? You are basing your agreement on which rules? You record the gun as it is received not as what it used to be. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 3:02:19 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there any sort of published information on filling out the multiple sale form and describing them as handguns being a violation? The instructions are on the back of the form: Multiple Sale Form for handguns 27 CFR 478.11 Meaning of Terms What it is: Firearm frame or receiver. That part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. What a Ruger barreled receiver is not: Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and (b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled. What a Ruger barreled receiver is not: Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s). While the form doesn't explicit say that its a violaton to include barreled receivers, the purpose of the form is to report the multiple sale of handguns, not barreled receivers. Further, the dealer (when he applied for his FFL) agreed to abide by federal law and ATF regulations regarding the accurate recordkeeping of firearms he acquires and their disposition. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 3:07:18 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm still hung up on the dealer wanting $500 to fill out one multiple sales form. Obviously I'm undercharging.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 3:08:57 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm still hung up on the dealer wanting $500 to fill out one multiple sales form. Obviously I'm undercharging. I read it the other way. He was going to have to fill out X 4473s, one each week. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 3:15:12 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read it the other way. He was going to have to fill out X 4473s, one each week. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm still hung up on the dealer wanting $500 to fill out one multiple sales form. Obviously I'm undercharging. I read it the other way. He was going to have to fill out X 4473s, one each week. And charge for each transfer |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:32:16 PM EDT
[#46]
I'm not in GA, but I looked up GA's definition of a "handgun", and it's vague enough to be problematic:
Section 16-11-101.1 (2) "Pistol or revolver" means a handgun as defined in subsection (a) of Code § 16-11-125.1. Section 16-11-125.1. Definitions. (1) "Handgun" means a firearm of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which any shot, bullet, or other missile can be discharged by an action of an explosive where the length of the barrel, not including any revolving, detachable, or magazine breech, does not exceed 12 inches; provided, however, that the term "handgun" shall not include a gun which discharges a single shot of .46 centimeters or less in diameter. The devil is in the details. GA law says "a FIREARM of ANY description" with a barrel length that does not exceed 12", is a handgun. The barreled MKIV receiver is a "firearm" per the ATF, certainly meeting the "of any description" definition, and it likely has a barrel length of 12" of less. That makes no difference to the ATF/Feds, but it appears to matter to GA, who would classify such a firearm as a 'handgun." |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/28/2022 10:38:29 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not in GA, but I looked up GA's definition of a "handgun", and it's vague enough to be problematic: The devil is in the details. GA law says "a FIREARM of ANY description" with a barrel length that does not exceed 12", is a handgun. The barreled MKIV receiver is a "firearm" per the ATF, certainly meeting the "of any description" definition, and it likely has a barrel length of 12" of less. That makes no difference to the ATF/Feds, but it appears to matter to GA, who would classify such a firearm as a 'handgun." GA law is irrelevant as to what a FFL fills out in his book/4473. It would matter if the state had a one handgun a month law like VA, or needed a separate permit like NJ, in those cases it could take months to get all the uppers if they have to xfer as handguns, but that does not appear to be the case in GA AFAIK. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/2/2022 10:06:22 AM EDT
[#48]
If you need a new dealer in GA, let me know.
I'm not sure what the fuss about the multiple sales form is (despite not being required in this case). |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
