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Posted: 1/17/2021 11:40:55 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Good morning all. So, I've only been reloading about 4 months, 45 colt only. I know this isn't the optimal forum, but I don't really feel like joining another forum just yet. Anyway ... I got a chrono for Christmas and found some interesting results. Shooting a 250gr RNFP .452 bullet. I was only able to find magnum large pistol primers for a while, so after some reading, I've been loading them and just keeping away from the max charges. I was using a powder charger, and wasn't fanatical with making the charges exact (ie, +/- 0.1gr). Using 32gr of Pyrodex P, I averaged (5-shot) 906 fps from a 4.75 inch SAA clone. Using 6.5gr Win 231, averaged 652 fps. Using 5.2gr Trail Boss, 675 FPS. I don't mind using the 231 or TB loads for range use, but had been thinking that it'd make a nice trail gun. I'm kind of concerned about the low muzzle energy, in the mid 200 ft-lbs energy range with those loads. I also have some Buffalo Bore and Underwood ammo, but had been saving them for my Win 94, as they're loaded hot. My question is, are there any smokeless loads that can approach the velocity of the Pyrodex, safely? I do have regular large pistol primers by this time. I have Accurate #5 to play with as well. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 12:55:11 PM EDT
[#2]
FPNI and all.
7 gr of Unique with a 250 gr lead bullet and any LP primer is the classic 45 Colt load and moves along at 850 fps. I can testify that this load will kill a whitetail dead, Dead, DEAD. MLG |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 1:56:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I usually run 7 grains Unique. Except .... I don't have Unique. And no place I've found within an hour selling it. Also, in Hornady, that much Unique is only recommended on the lighter rounds, ie, 200gr. Edit: Turns out, the Lyman book has that loading of Unique. Interesting how much of a discrepancy there is between the 2. I did read some posts on Castboolit that talk about 8 grains of Win 231, but that's over the max loading in the Hornady book, again for the heavier bullets. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 3:44:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did read some posts on Castboolit that talk about 8 grains of Win 231, but that's over the max loading in the Hornady book, again for the heavier bullets. I like Hornady’s book, but they seem much more conservative than others with many loads. You can use the Hodgdon Load Data for an additional reference. They lost up to 7.1 gr. of 231 with a 250 gr. LRN under the standard pressure (not Ruger / Freedom Arms) load data. I could comment on what I have used, but my .45 Colt firearms are all either large-frame Ruger or T/C, so may not be appropriate for a Colt clone. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:08:57 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I usually run 7 grains Unique. FPNI unique, or something with a similar burn rate. 7gr win231 HS-6 and CFE-P work well also |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 5:13:00 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Good morning all. So, I've only been reloading about 4 months, 45 colt only. I know this isn't the optimal forum, but I don't really feel like joining another forum just yet. We have everything from guys asking about buying reloading tools to advanced accuracy loaders. Then the jack of all trades master of none guys like me. Cast Boolets is a great forum, I'm a member there as well. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 5:30:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why wouldn't this be the optimal forum? We have everything from guys asking about buying reloading tools to advanced accuracy loaders. Then the jack of all trades master of none guys like me. Cast Boolets is a great forum, I'm a member there as well. I suspect there are fewer 45Colt loaders here than other forums, being that this is primarily for the EBR. Am I being overly cautious since I've got mostly the magnum large pistol primers? What I read suggested cutting max load by 1/2 grain, which is why I haven't topped off on the reload data. At some point I'll load up regular LP primers, but I'm keeping those for rifle loads at the moment. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 5:35:29 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suspect there are fewer 45Colt loaders here than other forums, being that this is primarily for the EBR. Am I being overly cautious since I've got mostly the magnum large pistol primers? What I read suggested cutting max load by 1/2 grain, which is why I haven't topped off on the reload data. At some point I'll load up regular LP primers, but I'm keeping those for rifle loads at the moment. Substitute Mag primers, the question that is asked almost daily. Yes you can, begin loading at the "start" load and work up watching for pressure signs. Which you should do in any caliber rifle/pistol any load. "start" load is lowest powder charge shown in data. Don't use pistol primers for rifle loads. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 7:25:07 PM EDT
[#9]
CFE-pistol will get you there. None of the powders you have on hand will do what you want.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 8:13:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Bump that 231 load up to 8 grains .
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Posted: 1/17/2021 9:05:57 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bump that 231 load up to 8 grains . Is that safe in a SAA clone? |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 9:21:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that safe in a SAA clone? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bump that 231 load up to 8 grains . Is that safe in a SAA clone? Chronograph results using a Colt SAA 4 3/4” barrel : 7.3 grains of 231 and a cast 250 grain bullet : 775 FPS 8.0 grains : 865 FPS . |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 9:31:49 PM EDT
[#13]
It's always interesting comparing different manuals. Or even manuals from the same company from different years. Regarding the 8.0 gr. of Win 231 load, the Speer No. 12 manual ((c) 1994) gives a range of 7.2 to 8.0 gr. of 231 for a 255 gr. LSWC (no pressures listed).
And while the current Hodgdon data gives a range of 5.8 (9,100 CUP) to 7.1 gr. (13,900 CUP), their 26th ed. loading manual ((c) 1992) gives a range of 7.0 (13,000 CUP) to 8.0 (15,600 CUP). Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that safe in a SAA clone? One reference I found shows a limit for standard pressure .45 Colt at 15,900 CUP. So the 8.0 gr. load should still be less than that, if not by a lot. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 9:41:20 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that safe in a SAA clone? Work up the load in your gun and find out. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 9:45:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Work up the load in your gun and find out. I read that in Elmer Keiths voice . . . yep, the SPEER #12 shows a win231 max at 8.0gr / 250gr 7.5gr w231 got me 803fps from a 4.25” cattleman |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 10:45:34 PM EDT
[#16]
I've spent very little time reloading 45 colt, but AA#5 (which you said you have) works fairly well for mid level loads and up. A max charge will get you close to what you're looking for, but your shorter barrel will be a limiting factor. I usually shoot for around 9.0-9.5 grains of AA#5 w/ a 250 grain lead RNFP, which puts me around 750-800 fps from a 5.5" barrel if I recall. That's about as hot as I like to go before it becomes "unfun" to shoot.
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Posted: 1/17/2021 10:48:23 PM EDT
[#17]
You 45 Colt shooters didn't disappoint.
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Posted: 1/18/2021 9:15:51 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You 45 Colt shooters didn't disappoint. No, they didn't. Thank you! |
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Posted: 1/19/2021 2:03:12 AM EDT
[#19]
Should def pickup some unique if u run across it great big bore revolver powder, tried alot of powders and keep going back to it for 45lc,38spl and 357m
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Posted: 1/20/2021 5:14:16 AM EDT
[#20]
Your gun is your limiting factor. The 45 colt brass case can handle more pressure than you would realize. I had a H&R rifle in the Buffalo classic in 45 colt. I was talking to several very knowledgeable people about this rifle and what you could load it to. Lets just say a 310gr lead bullet at 2200fps and was still not showing pressure.
Here is a very good article on the 45 colt in new modern lever actions. These were my starting loads. DO NOT EVER USE THESE IN YOUR PISTOL https://leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 5:31:00 AM EDT
[#21]
14.0gr AA#9 with a 250gr projectile is how I roll; use magnum primers as well.
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Posted: 1/20/2021 6:22:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: <snip> Someone didn't read the thread OP does not have a Ruger. |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 7:52:29 AM EDT
[#23]
There is a heap of loading data in the book SIXGUNS by Elmer Keith
2400 powder would be what I'd use if I wanted to make some higher velocity ammunition I can recommend the Keith designed bullet too - the old mold no is 454424, the modern version is 452424 |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 8:20:12 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone didn't read the thread OP does not have a Ruger. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Someone didn't read the thread OP does not have a Ruger. Thats not a ruger load, safe for SAA according to speer. |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 10:27:53 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thats not a ruger load, safe for SAA according to speer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Someone didn't read the thread OP does not have a Ruger. Thats not a ruger load, safe for SAA according to speer. I checked the Western Powders Load Data (Accurate Arms parent company). They list 14,000 psi “standard loads” and 30,000 psi “High Pressure Loads”. They do not list any standard pressure loads using AA#9. But they give a starting load of 20.6 gr. with a 255 gr. LSWC in the High Pressure section. Which would also support that FrankW134’s 14.0 gr. load is a fair bit lower in pressure. If the Speer book lists that as a standard pressure load, Western Powders seems to support that. |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 1:38:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your gun is your limiting factor. The 45 colt brass case can handle more pressure than you would realize. I had a H&R rifle in the Buffalo classic in 45 colt. I was talking to several very knowledgeable people about this rifle and what you could load it to. Lets just say a 310gr lead bullet at 2200fps and was still not showing pressure. Here is a very good article on the 45 colt in new modern lever actions. These were my starting loads. DO NOT EVER USE THESE IN YOUR PISTOL https://leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm I actually have a 94AE as well. Have plenty of Grizzly and Underwood loads for it. While I do load a bit for the rifle, I use their nickel cases, and SWC rounds, as a bit of a visual aid to minimize risk of mix up. Regardless, I have avoided pushing the envelope for the pistol rounds, since I know it's the weaker of the 2 weapons. I've read that Cimarron proof tests to 1.5x pressure, so I know there's a little wiggle room... but obviously measuring pressure is a bit of voodoo without actual equipment. Thus, not pushing the rounds so far. (https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/return-and-repair-policy) I did put up 5 rounds with Win 231 - 7.0 and 7.2 grains with the magnum primers. I'll take them out tomorrow to chrono and look for pressure signs. Stopped there since those were what I had lying around still made up. I'm currently doing some 9mm loading (hence having the 231 out), and just swapped over to the 45 dies for a few minutes the other day. |
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Posted: 1/20/2021 9:41:04 PM EDT
[#27]
Well they make the same gun in 357 mag (35Kpsi) so they probably tested the gun to 55K psi or more. Call and ask.
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Posted: 1/20/2021 11:06:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well they make the same gun in 357 mag (35Kpsi) so they probably tested the gun to 55K psi or more. Call and ask. Referring to the SAA clone? I'd assume that, if you are, the 357 has thicker walls than the 45, given case dimension differences. But I'll be happy if it can hold close to 15-20k PSI, since I've seen "3 levels of 45 colt loads" a few times on the internet. Seems the medium loads, around 20k PSI, go on the presumption that new guns have better metallurgy and different pressure curves with smokeless powder, and thus are stronger than the originals. Makes sense, but I'd still like to avoid a pistol blowing up in my hand. |
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Posted: 1/21/2021 1:08:46 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Referring to the SAA clone? I'd assume that, if you are, the 357 has thicker walls than the 45, given case dimension differences. But I'll be happy if it can hold close to 15-20k PSI, since I've seen "3 levels of 45 colt loads" a few times on the internet. Seems the medium loads, around 20k PSI, go on the presumption that new guns have better metallurgy and different pressure curves with smokeless powder, and thus are stronger than the originals. Makes sense, but I'd still like to avoid a pistol blowing up in my hand. |
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Posted: 1/21/2021 7:12:44 PM EDT
[#30]
So went out in a blustery 30 degree day. I think I found my happy spot.
Pushed 7.2 and 7.4 grains of Win 231 behind a 250gr lead round nose, with MLP primers. The 7.2 locked up the cylinder for some reason (tossed the round - light primer strike and the cylinder kept catching on it). 7.4 grains were right around 820fps (4.75 inch barrel). But also had loaded some AA #5. Those puppies were moving. 9.5 gr got me 810-860fps, and 10.0 grains 850-880 fps. None of the loads looked like the brass was bulging or primer strikes were light. I think the pistol was just gumming up; it seemed to do better once I removed that round out and kept on going. I might push that AA a bit more, but 10.5 gr was the recommended max in my books. Maybe try 10.2, but I don't think I'll go too nuts. I might throw a few 255 keith-style SWC's in the mix too and see how they do. Once the days warm up a bit I'll shoot for accuracy too and tweak from there. Thanks all for help |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 12:52:07 AM EDT
[#31]
If you don't seat primers fully, a high primer will make a revolver's cylinder hard to turn.
Will also cause a misfire, If that happens strike the primer again. If it goes off, then it wasn't fully seated. First strike seats it, round does not fire. Second strike fires now correctly seated primer. This is a common problem for new reloaders. Glad your loads shot well. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 12:20:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you don't seat primers fully, a high primer will make a revolver's cylinder hard to turn. Will also cause a misfire, If that happens strike the primer again. If it goes off, then it wasn't fully seated. First strike seats it, round does not fire. Second strike fires now correctly seated primer. This is a common problem for new reloaders. Glad your loads shot well. Thanks. Not 100% sure that was the issue, though it certainly could be. Once the light strike happened I wasn't able to cock the hammer - had to pull the gun apart and pull the cylinder out. That was the 2nd round in the course of fire - the first one cycled/rotated and fired just fine. Having said that, I was doing some 9mm reloads last week and had a non fire then, so it's certainly possible that I'm getting "lazy" when seating the primers. My primer tool was giving me fits and I was probably not in the best headspace at that moment (for the 9mm - the 45 was primed last month). Anyway, having 2 light primers in a short time frame sure could point to the reloader being the problem. I try to feel the primers as I pull the shell off the tool, but suppose I can miss some. Especially being fairly new (maybe 6-700 rounds done to date). |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:00:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. Not 100% sure that was the issue, though it certainly could be. Once the light strike happened I wasn't able to cock the hammer - had to pull the gun apart and pull the cylinder out. That was the 2nd round in the course of fire - the first one cycled/rotated and fired just fine. Having said that, I was doing some 9mm reloads last week and had a non fire then, so it's certainly possible that I'm getting "lazy" when seating the primers. My primer tool was giving me fits and I was probably not in the best headspace at that moment (for the 9mm - the 45 was primed last month). Anyway, having 2 light primers in a short time frame sure could point to the reloader being the problem. I try to feel the primers as I pull the shell off the tool, but suppose I can miss some. Especially being fairly new (maybe 6-700 rounds done to date).  Fast and easy way to inspect primer seating depth. Tilt box like shown, look above primer for the tiny bit of brass that will show that primer is seated below flush. Done like this a 10 second effort. I inspect every round I load. If using a case gauge, you do the same thing as you are checking that round will chamber. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:23:58 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 1/30/2021 10:34:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Thanks for the primer tip, and the load data above.
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