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Posted: 9/15/2010 8:38:15 AM EDT
[#1]
I believe all SGW conversion RRs are forged or machined –– apparently Olympic did not start using cast receivers until after the May 19, 1986 cutoff. So this SGW would be worth neither more nor less than any other Oly conversion RR.
Though many have been fixed by now, the Oly receivers are notorious for having out-of-spec magwells, top decks and takedown pin holes. It limits the mags you can use, and uppers have to be modded to work with the lower as-is. All these receiver issues are easily fixed if you know what you are doing, but still ... I would suspect that a safe queen has not yet been brought into spec. Fair price is $8.5-8.9k. Smoking price is $8k or less. YMMV. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:29:23 AM EDT
[#2]
Man you guys are tough, 2nd time I came in here with cash burning a hole in my pocket and you guys set the pricing bar low...
This is Phoenix with I am sure a bunch of MGs around and one of the worst economies in the country, but I can't find the deals referenced by folks on this board. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:04:38 AM EDT
[#3]
It's tough to go out and find deals locally anywhere. Smokin' deals come to you, not the other way around, unfortunately. And they usually show up when you don't have cash in-hand.
I watch the sales boards religiously (sturm, subguns, etc.) and the above prices are the average of what I see posted. The smokin' deals –– $8k or so –– sell within hours. The $9k guns sit for days or weeks, and that means that in at least some cases, they probably went to lower offers (not the full advertised price). A member here sold a Sendra/Bushmaster RR on gunbroker.com last month for a last-minute top bid of $9,075; it had sat in the 8's for days. Just goes to show what happens during auctions.... To many buyers, it's worth a couple hundred extra to buy from someone local, particularly with an established business. That way you can see the gun, maybe test-fire it, and you also reduce the chance that between buying and Form 4 approval the buyer will abscond with your money. (Though that rarely happens in the NFA world –– everyone is just too well-armed.) Still, when you pay $9k plus sales tax locally, and then the next week you see three for sale on subguns/sturm for $8.5k, no sales tax ... did you make out OK on the deal? That's up to you to decide. You might consider posting a WTB on sturm and subguns. List your top price (say, up to $8.5k), say you are a serious buyer with cash in hand (and mean it), that you know the NFA process, and that priority will be given to AZ or FFL/SOT sellers. I know several folks who have done this successfully ... and sometimes, the guy advertising a gun for $9.5k will respond and take your offer. The other thing you may want to consider is deciding exactly what you want, and going for it. Right now the market is so down, there are several Colt factory M16s on those boards for $12-13k. That's about $3k less than three years ago, when SGWs were geting close to $12-13k. Just sayin'.... 
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Posted: 9/15/2010 1:17:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Like tony said above, they are out there. You just have to be quick. There was one on sturm with in the last week that sold for $8,500. It lasted a couple of hours. There was one at my local gun show last weekend for $8500 to tell you the truth. I thought about getting the guys number, but I didn't. I know there are a couple listed around $9k. If you post a WTB add for a RR M16 on strum for $8k, I'd think you'd likely get some bites. Try the WTB. Doesn't cost you anything but 5 mins to write it up.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 1:33:27 PM EDT
[#5]
I bought my Frankford Arsenal RR from a local guy who posted it for sale on Sturm for $8.5K 3 months ago.
Luckily I saw it right when he posted it and told him that I would take it after a test fire (he was only 45mins away). I went and test fired it a couple of days later and he said that he had 4-6 people call saying that they would take it. I got luck. Plus my transfer only took 9 weeks. The RR will be going to US Anodizing early next week to get re-finished. I already have a brand new set of all Colt internals and some Magpul goodies that will be going on it. 
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Posted: 9/16/2010 6:10:38 AM EDT
[#6]
Thanks for the good tips.
Have a couple more questions. If the gun is on a form 4 out of state, that is two tax stamps to me correct? And form 3 is tax free for the first stamp? How does a gun get on a form 3? Is that a SOT thing? Second, I see a lot of deals require 100% cash up front, do people actually do this? Seems a bit much to hand over the full price to a complete strange, esp one of out state, to take delivery in 3 months plus. Finally, did a SGW really sell for $12 to $13k a few years ago. And was that a private sale price or dealer? Since SAR is only a couple months away, I might wait till then before putting any WTB ads out. Plus I want to be a big man and stroll the aisles of SAR with thousands of dollars of cash for a down payment.
However, at the end of the day, I think its definitely worth more paying extra to go through a dealer you trust. The question is how much more. If the gun in question was setup in something trendy like an M4 or Commando, I probably would just buy it now. |
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Posted: 9/16/2010 7:57:09 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:Have a couple more questions. If the gun is on a form 4 out of state, that is two tax stamps to me correct? And form 3 is tax free for the first stamp? How does a gun get on a form 3? Is that a SOT thing?
It doesn't actually matter what form an NFA firearm is "on" - it matters the current SOT status of the seller, the buyer and all the intermediaries. If the seller is a current SOT, then regardless of whether the NFA item is "on" Form 1, Form 2, Form 3, Form 4 or Form 5, it can transfer to another SOT tax-free via a Form 3, or tax-paid to a non-SOT via a Form 4, or tax-free to/from a gov't entity on Form 5. However, it's generally a shorthand to say that if a gun is "on" Form 3, that means the initial transferror is a SOT, and will be able to transfer it tax-free to another SOT via Form 3 for the first transaction after the sale. In the case of your specific question, the firearm appears to be privately held (non-SOT initial transferror), and in another state. That will require two tax-paid F4's to get into your hand, if you're not an FFL/SOT yourself. The firearm can either come directly to an FFL in your state (SOT or non-SOT doesn't matter), on a tax-paid F4, then to you from the FFL on a tax-paid F4. Or, it can go to a SOT in the seller's state on a tax-paid F4, to a SOT in your state on a tax-free F3, then to you from the in-state SOT on a tax-paid F4. Obviously, if you've got an in-state FFL (with or without SOT, though a SOT might help the initial F4 clear more quickly), who will accept a direct transfer from the out-of-state seller, then do a transfer to you once it's in-state, that will require the fewest forms, and shortest wait time, but still $400 total on two tax-paid Forms 4. Second, I see a lot of deals require 100% cash up front, do people actually do this? Seems a bit much to hand over the full price to a complete strange, esp one of out state, to take delivery in 3 months plus.
Many sellers do want it all up front now. You can say no, and pass on the buy, but most transactions I've handled in the past two years have been 100% paid in advance, whether by myself or my customers doing the buying. |
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Posted: 9/16/2010 1:53:09 PM EDT
[#8]
And to your question about if a SGW sold for $12k, yeah, they did. Sendra's sold for about that, if not a bit more. Then the market dropped out, and prices came down. They had gotten alot higher because of the shrike, and never really came back down. Guess we'll see how the market turns around when the economy comes back.
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Posted: 9/18/2010 2:23:59 PM EDT
[#9]
I have an SGW RR. I had the typical high shelf issue that had to be machined and re-anodized. I don't know where the thread is, but it was here in the M-16 section.
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Posted: 10/24/2010 8:18:32 PM EDT
[#10]
FYI. Same gun was posted on EE and sold for $10k, at least asking price. Maybe a stamp was paid for to out of state buyers.
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Posted: 10/25/2010 7:37:07 AM EDT
[#11]
I ended up buying the M16. Might of paid on the high side for it but its looks to be in excellent condition and that is worth something to me. I have lots of tax stamps in suppressors and SBR's but this is my first MG. Can't wait. Sold off most of my other guns to pay for it. No regrets so far.
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Posted: 10/25/2010 7:53:02 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
I ended up buying the M16. Might of paid on the high side for it but its looks to be in excellent condition and that is worth something to me. I have lots of tax stamps in suppressors and SBR's but this is my first MG. Can't wait. Sold off most of my other guns to pay for it. No regrets so far. Congrats then. It wasn't a great price, but it was in line with what they have gone to. Rubin has sold them for about that, if not a little more. Now for the wait, but I guess you are used to that if you have other NFA toys. |
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Posted: 10/25/2010 8:26:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Waiting on two Form 4's will be a first. Sounds like things have a picked up a bit with NFA so hopefully I have it by May.
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Posted: 10/25/2010 7:39:57 PM EDT
[#14]
the lower is very clean with excellent machining, at least compared to other SGW I have seen. I was going to give this deep thought after SAR in early dec., just couldn't buy it before SAR and have no money when SAR rolled into Phoenix.
I was going to test fit some of uppers on it, but did not get the chance. Not sure about the nickel bits, are you going to be brave enough to change out the BHO? |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 5:48:28 AM EDT
[#15]
That's good to know it's a good looking receiver. It is hard to tell with pictures exactly what you are getting. I am going to leave the BHO on, I don't think I'd have a problem driving the pin out but I don't want to chance it either. I'll change all the other FCG parts out. Hopefully it will accept other uppers without modification. The guy who has it said he tried another upper on it and it fit fine.
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Posted: 10/26/2010 11:21:28 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
If the gun is on a form 4 out of state, that is two tax stamps to me correct? And form 3 is tax free for the first stamp? How does a gun get on a form 3? Is that a SOT thing? Simply put, if it's on a Form 4 in another state, that individual would transfer it to your SOT on a Form 4 ($200) and then you would transfer it to youself from your SOT on another Form 4 ($200). You wouldn't need to have a Form 3 transfer in there at all. You can think of Form 3 as a dealer to dealer transfer which doesn't require any tax and is generally a lot faster of a process than a Form 4. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 5:34:50 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the gun is on a form 4 out of state, that is two tax stamps to me correct? And form 3 is tax free for the first stamp? How does a gun get on a form 3? Is that a SOT thing? Simply put, if it's on a Form 4 in another state, that individual would transfer it to your SOT on a Form 4 ($200) and then you would transfer it to youself from your SOT on another Form 4 ($200). You wouldn't need to have a Form 3 transfer in there at all. You can think of Form 3 as a dealer to dealer transfer which doesn't require any tax and is generally a lot faster of a process than a Form 4. Predator's explanation is completely on-point. For more detailed info .... NFA items are not on forms. Instead, the type of form used depends on the type of transfer, and the status of both the transferee and the transferor. Rather than being "on" a particular type of form, it only indicates the legal status of the parties involved in the last transfer. Transfers between FFL/SOTs (FFLs which also hold valid Special Occupation Taxpayer status) are tax-free, and thus are done via Form 3's. Transfers where either, or both, the transferor and transferee do not hold valid SOTs are tax-due, and thus must be done via a Form 4. The reason it's best to not think of the firearm as being "on" a particular type of form is because SOT status often changes over time. If an FFL who holds a valid SOT buys an NFA item from another FFL/SOT, it transfers via a Form 3; but if the buying FFL later lets his SOT lapse, the same firearm must transfer to the next FFL/SOT via a tax-due Form 4. Similarly, a regular FFL (non-SOT) may buy NFA items via Form 4's, then later acquire an SOT, and thus can sell those same NFA items out of inventory to other FFL/SOTs via tax-free Form 3's. Once you get out of thinking of NFA items as being "on" forms and start thinking about the SOT status of both transferor and transferee, the determination of which form must be used, and whether a tax is due, becomes much clearer. (It is particularly important when it comes to machine guns, because an FFL who acquires post-sample MGs may later allow his SOT to lapse, in which case he must transfer those post-sample MGs to other dealers via tax-due Form 4's. The MGs are still restricted to FFL ownership only, but seeing that the last transfer was via a Form 4 may give the false impression that they can be owned by unlicensed individuals, same as pre='86 transferables.) HTH. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 7:00:02 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the gun is on a form 4 out of state, that is two tax stamps to me correct? And form 3 is tax free for the first stamp? How does a gun get on a form 3? Is that a SOT thing? Simply put, if it's on a Form 4 in another state, that individual would transfer it to your SOT on a Form 4 ($200) and then you would transfer it to youself from your SOT on another Form 4 ($200). You wouldn't need to have a Form 3 transfer in there at all. You can think of Form 3 as a dealer to dealer transfer which doesn't require any tax and is generally a lot faster of a process than a Form 4. Predator's explanation is completely on-point. For more detailed info .... NFA items are not on forms. Instead, the type of form used depends on the type of transfer, and the status of both the transferee and the transferor. Rather than being "on" a particular type of form, it only indicates the legal status of the parties involved in the last transfer. Transfers between FFL/SOTs (FFLs which also hold valid Special Occupation Taxpayer status) are tax-free, and thus are done via Form 3's. Transfers where either, or both, the transferor and transferee do not hold valid SOTs are tax-due, and thus must be done via a Form 4. The reason it's best to not think of the firearm as being "on" a particular type of form is because SOT status often changes over time. If an FFL who holds a valid SOT buys an NFA item from another FFL/SOT, it transfers via a Form 3; but if the buying FFL later lets his SOT lapse, the same firearm must transfer to the next FFL/SOT via a tax-due Form 4. Similarly, a regular FFL (non-SOT) may buy NFA items via Form 4's, then later acquire an SOT, and thus can sell those same NFA items out of inventory to other FFL/SOTs via tax-free Form 3's. Once you get out of thinking of NFA items as being "on" forms and start thinking about the SOT status of both transferor and transferee, the determination of which form must be used, and whether a tax is due, becomes much clearer. (It is particularly important when it comes to machine guns, because an FFL who acquires post-sample MGs may later allow his SOT to lapse, in which case he must transfer those post-sample MGs to other dealers via tax-due Form 4's. The MGs are still restricted to FFL ownership only, but seeing that the last transfer was via a Form 4 may give the false impression that they can be owned by unlicensed individuals, same as pre='86 transferables.) HTH. Tony/Predator - I thought it had to be transferred F4 to an in-state dealer first, then state-to-state via F3, then a 3rd time F4 to the end buyer. It can go direct F4 across states TO an SOT? |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 8:09:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the gun is on a form 4 out of state, that is two tax stamps to me correct? And form 3 is tax free for the first stamp? How does a gun get on a form 3? Is that a SOT thing? Simply put, if it's on a Form 4 in another state, that individual would transfer it to your SOT on a Form 4 ($200) and then you would transfer it to youself from your SOT on another Form 4 ($200). You wouldn't need to have a Form 3 transfer in there at all. You can think of Form 3 as a dealer to dealer transfer which doesn't require any tax and is generally a lot faster of a process than a Form 4. Predator's explanation is completely on-point. For more detailed info .... NFA items are not on forms. Instead, the type of form used depends on the type of transfer, and the status of both the transferee and the transferor. Rather than being "on" a particular type of form, it only indicates the legal status of the parties involved in the last transfer. Transfers between FFL/SOTs (FFLs which also hold valid Special Occupation Taxpayer status) are tax-free, and thus are done via Form 3's. Transfers where either, or both, the transferor and transferee do not hold valid SOTs are tax-due, and thus must be done via a Form 4. The reason it's best to not think of the firearm as being "on" a particular type of form is because SOT status often changes over time. If an FFL who holds a valid SOT buys an NFA item from another FFL/SOT, it transfers via a Form 3; but if the buying FFL later lets his SOT lapse, the same firearm must transfer to the next FFL/SOT via a tax-due Form 4. Similarly, a regular FFL (non-SOT) may buy NFA items via Form 4's, then later acquire an SOT, and thus can sell those same NFA items out of inventory to other FFL/SOTs via tax-free Form 3's. Once you get out of thinking of NFA items as being "on" forms and start thinking about the SOT status of both transferor and transferee, the determination of which form must be used, and whether a tax is due, becomes much clearer. (It is particularly important when it comes to machine guns, because an FFL who acquires post-sample MGs may later allow his SOT to lapse, in which case he must transfer those post-sample MGs to other dealers via tax-due Form 4's. The MGs are still restricted to FFL ownership only, but seeing that the last transfer was via a Form 4 may give the false impression that they can be owned by unlicensed individuals, same as pre='86 transferables.) HTH. Tony/Predator - I thought it had to be transferred F4 to an in-state dealer first, then state-to-state via F3, then a 3rd time F4 to the end buyer. It can go direct F4 across states TO an SOT? Yes you can transfer it to a SOT in a different sate yourself on a form 4. You do not have to have to transfer it to a dealer in your state so he can transfer it again to another SOT out of state. I have transferred several items I have on a form 4 to out of state dealers with no SOT middle man. |
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Posted: 10/26/2010 11:04:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If the gun is on a form 4 out of state, that is two tax stamps to me correct? And form 3 is tax free for the first stamp? How does a gun get on a form 3? Is that a SOT thing? Simply put, if it's on a Form 4 in another state, that individual would transfer it to your SOT on a Form 4 ($200) and then you would transfer it to youself from your SOT on another Form 4 ($200). You wouldn't need to have a Form 3 transfer in there at all. You can think of Form 3 as a dealer to dealer transfer which doesn't require any tax and is generally a lot faster of a process than a Form 4. Predator's explanation is completely on-point. For more detailed info .... NFA items are not on forms. Instead, the type of form used depends on the type of transfer, and the status of both the transferee and the transferor. Rather than being "on" a particular type of form, it only indicates the legal status of the parties involved in the last transfer. Transfers between FFL/SOTs (FFLs which also hold valid Special Occupation Taxpayer status) are tax-free, and thus are done via Form 3's. Transfers where either, or both, the transferor and transferee do not hold valid SOTs are tax-due, and thus must be done via a Form 4. The reason it's best to not think of the firearm as being "on" a particular type of form is because SOT status often changes over time. If an FFL who holds a valid SOT buys an NFA item from another FFL/SOT, it transfers via a Form 3; but if the buying FFL later lets his SOT lapse, the same firearm must transfer to the next FFL/SOT via a tax-due Form 4. Similarly, a regular FFL (non-SOT) may buy NFA items via Form 4's, then later acquire an SOT, and thus can sell those same NFA items out of inventory to other FFL/SOTs via tax-free Form 3's. Once you get out of thinking of NFA items as being "on" forms and start thinking about the SOT status of both transferor and transferee, the determination of which form must be used, and whether a tax is due, becomes much clearer. (It is particularly important when it comes to machine guns, because an FFL who acquires post-sample MGs may later allow his SOT to lapse, in which case he must transfer those post-sample MGs to other dealers via tax-due Form 4's. The MGs are still restricted to FFL ownership only, but seeing that the last transfer was via a Form 4 may give the false impression that they can be owned by unlicensed individuals, same as pre='86 transferables.) HTH. Tony/Predator - I thought it had to be transferred F4 to an in-state dealer first, then state-to-state via F3, then a 3rd time F4 to the end buyer. It can go direct F4 across states TO an SOT? Yes you can transfer it to a SOT in a different sate yourself on a form 4. You do not have to have to transfer it to a dealer in your state so he can transfer it again to another SOT out of state. I have transferred several items I have on a form 4 to out of state dealers with no SOT middle man. Exactly. This is why I made my post, because a lot of people think you have to transfer to a local SOT in your state first then form 3 it to the out of state SOT, which is not true. It's just another one of those NFA misconceptions out there.
Of course you can go that route and there is nothing wrong with it, but the overall process will take longer as you are adding a Form 3 transfer in there... Oh and tony, I used the terminology "on" because it seems most of the listings on subguns and sturm list them as such. Personally when I read "on" form 3, to me that means the next transfer can be done "on" a form 3 (as an example.) Of course this is another one of those potential NFA misconceptions, so I'm glad you pointed it out. |
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