I've always wanted a belt fed and coulda should bought a sweet like new M60 when one was offered at $45K.
Oopsy !
I do have a RR HK91 that I really dont shoot and was thinking of a conversion.
Will the upper still accept magazines ?
If so who to do the work ?
Is Terry Dyer still around and doing conversions ?
If not there is Michael's Machines.
Anyone else with good recommendations ?

If you are already heavy in the MG game I'd lean towards an m16 conversion to belt. Seems like you can just buy the upper and start spraying lead.

Yes.  HK21E is the model you want, not HK21.  Not a suitable military MMG, but a fun collector gun.


18Z50

HK21

More info

Yes a Fightligte makes a lot of sense. I have 2 M16 Lowers.
However I'm wondering if I can increase my investment dollar wise by converting the 91 to 21.

I have a HK21E/23E built off a HK91/G3 Registered Receiver using a demilled German 21E beltfed for the conversion.   It is about as close as you can get to a factory HK E beltfed as a civilian.

It is an expensive and time consuming proposition and not every RR HK91/G3 is suitable for conversion depending upon how the original conversion was done and where the manufacturing markings on the gun are.  

The conversion cost on my HK21E gun was $30k (parts and labor) and the German 23E conversion kit was another $12K.  All in the total cost was around $60K for the build and took a couple years from inception to completion.  My guess is that the cost would probably be closer to $75K today to do the same build.  (Granted you already have the RR HK91 so maybe $50K for the parts and labor)

Overall they are mechanically fascinating guns in terms of how they work the ability to go from belt fed 308 to belt fed 5.56, to mag fed 308 to mag fed 5.56 all in the same chassis.   That said as a battlefield implement they are very complicated with an enormous amount of components.

To answer your question(s)

Will the upper still accept magazines ?  Yes the swing down feed mech HK E beltfed will accept magazines with the proper HK11E or 13E mag well conversion kit.  (mag well, bolt carrier group, and recoil rod assembly)  The older slide in feed mech HK21s will also accept mags with the proper magazine adapter.

If so who to do the work ? The only two people I know that are still doing these types of conversions are Mike Otte and I believe Ralph Smith (although I have not talked Ralph in some time).   I can 100% confirm TSC Machine no longer will do these guns and I don't believe Terry Dyer is doing these anymore either, at least not for people he doesn't  have a pre-existing relationship with.

Is Terry Dyer still around and doing conversions ? To the best of my knowledge, no.  I couldn't get him to return my calls a couple years ago when I was talking to gunsmiths about my HK21E project.

If not there is Michael's Machines.   Mike did my gun and it turned out perfect in every way.   I also own one of his MM21/23 EK guns that runs great as well and two local friend with MM US E guns that both run great.  

Anyone else with good recommendations ?   To the best of my knowledge all of the German E gun conversions were done by TSC, RDTS, Terry Dyer, or Mike Otte.    Carlos at BPP makes clone guns but I have never seen a German build from him although they may exist.

I have an M60E4 as well and they are two completely different guns and systems and both guns have their pros/cons.

If you have any other questions I am happy to help try and answer them.

Some HK E motivational photos for you:

Remember, you're not married to 308 just because it's a 91.  The 23e is a sweet shooting gun in 5.56.

If you had MM build you a 23e out of US parts, it would cost a lot less, and be a great shooter.

To me this is not an investment question but a desire question. You have a low end version of a classic muscle car and asking guys on a forum for such cars,  if you should spend 10s of thousands of dollars on upgrading to the V8 classic configuration. The first question is, can your RR be modified to original factory 21E configuration as it is a push pin conversion? Or do you have an unmodified semi auto receiver converted with an unregistered sear as a collection of parts?

The second question is parts. I think that you received a decent explanation of what is required. But with the change in ATF policy of Post  Samples no one is cutting up original Post Samples anymore. There might be the possibility of an imported parts set, but there won't be any barrel. The barrel is the key. If the receiver can be modified you could choose to use domestic made parts but that would be a more limited resale market.

IMHO the window on such a project is closing. The number of Smiths with the knowledge and skills are diminishing. Parts are near unobtainable. If you can modify the receiver you have and would enjoy organizing and completing the project, go for it. As far as investment aspect, sell the gun and put the money in the market. If you want to own a roller delayed beltfed, sell the receiver and put the money towards a sear and buy a semi auto beltfed host you can see run. To me this is not a "wouldn't it be cool" type of project. If you would enjoy the process, that would be an intangible. If you fell into a complete HK parts set for $500 or $5,000 there could be a profit in it. But there are so many points where such a project could turn into a nightmare. YMMV.

Scott

With the lack of parts kits and the cost of conversion (and the fact TSC is no longer doing them), you're going to take a huge risk and on top of that, lose financial value by trying to convert your hk 91. A much better bet would be to sell it, and use the proceeds to buy a quality HK sear (DLO pack, LaFrance Pack, Fleming Sear) and then buy a MM23e/21e kit. As mentioned, the costs would be high if you convert the HK91.

here's why. the hk91 is a one trick pony. You can chop it shorter to a g3k or 51 length which is fun, but you're still limited. Getting a sear lets you destroy clone guns (ptr 91, c93s, SW5s, SP5s, mm21s, etc) without killing the value on your sear. With HKs, because of the simple flexibility of the sear pack, you can easily drop it into all sorts of platforms.
Sear Packs are roughly 35k. A MM23e/21e is 12-14k for one caliber, and usually another 4k for a second caliber kit. Thats roughly 50k and both are pretty easy to sell if you ever have to liquidate.

Forgot to add, if you go the MM21/23 route, have Mike add some mounting rails so you can put optics and PEQ devices. Nothing like shooting a suppressed belt fed at night with a IR lasers. pew.

MM full size base model guns are now $13,500 and the alternative caliber conversion kit is $6500, so the total cost  for the full size gun with both the 308 and 5.56 parts is ~$20,000 now a days.  If you start adding extras like welded on rails, burst housings, assault grips, belt boxes, AA tripod mount, hard case,  extra barrels it is easy to quickly add another couple thousand to the overall cost.

I personally wouldn't recommend using US parts to convert a German Registered Receiver, especially if you are looking for any type of financial preservation or future appreciation.

Full German Parts on a  Registered Receiver 21/23E builds are usually purchased by the more die-hard HK nerds who want to own the top of the German HK roller-locked model pyramid.

If you convert a German HK91/G3 RR machinegun using US parts, very few (if any)  "HK collectors" will ever be interested in purchasing it.

Conversely the clone shooter world will see little value in the German Registered MG Receiver that was used as a basis for the conversion.  Folks who primarily collect and shoot clones have a sear(s) and as such want a clone belt-fed sear host for less than the cost basis of the HK91/G3 receiver.

It ultimately would put your gun in a really weird spot value wise as you have a $20K-ish German registered receiver with basically $13 to 15K worth of US parts and labor attached to it (for one caliber) giving you a $35K to $40K basis for the gun. Folks with a sear just see an extra $20K+ they don't need to spend for a semi clone, and German HK collector folks just see a mixed pedigree gun.

As mentioned above, if you want an HK E beltfed and you don't care about a full German pedigree or don't want to put the money into it for a full German parts conversion the better option is to sell the RR HK91/G3 and put the funds toward a sear and US clone host.

If you want the lowest cost to entry in the beltfed world and have an M16, no other rifle caliber beltfed will come close price-wise to a Ares/Fightlite MCR upper at ~$6000.  

If you do really want an all German 21E/23E and have the funds and patience to do it, imho they are awesome guns and you will end up with a really rare piece in the civilian transferable world.  I would be surprised if there are more than 100 total complete (with both calibers) all German transferable 21E/23E machinegun conversions out there.

As also mentioned above, the window to do these conversions is closing as the 21E has been out of production for over a decade now,  parts kits are drying up, and there is only a very select few individuals who have the knowledge/skill and are willing to take the risk to cut apart a $20K+ machinegun and expertly weld/graft on tens of thousands of dollars worth of parts.

Lots of good info above, but as asked, what type of RR is it? Double PP swing-down or is the conversion in the trigger pack with a registered semi-auto receiver? Huge difference.

I think you missed the boat here on the investment side.  Wanting a cool gun to shoot and enjoy is one thing, but the sheet amount of money and time you’d be committing to this would make it a loser investment. Prices and services are at an all-time high, and the C2s who would be worthy of this job are going to tie your gun up for a looooong time.

In the end, you’ll have an extremely cool gun, but will it make you substantially wealthier by reselling anytime soon? Absolutely not. Generally, no one does well when they buy high and sell high.

If you were to say you bought your RR back in the 1980s and have had the HK21 parts sitting around for decades, then the investment potential is huge since you would have “bought low.” But starting this journey now? Not worth it as an investment.

ETA: And nothing will induce buyers remorse faster than spending $70,000 and years of waiting to finally shoot your gorgeous HK21. They hurt. They beat you to death. They are not fun to shoot. I wanted one until I shot one.

Good point.  I don't know if the OP has ever shot an HK21.  I didn't like it either.

If I were in his shoes and wanted a belt fed 7.62x51 I would sell the RR HK 91 and get an M60.  
Then also get a Fightlite upper for belt fed 556 if so desired.

Everyone is different but I like a cyclic rate around the 600 RPM range.  The HK's shoot too fast for my taste and there is not much you can do about it other than changing locking pieces which won't drastically change the rate down that low.

The M60 already shoots at a very nice cyclic rate.

The Fightlite can be tuned to run in the 600's with a buffer and spring change.   You can also obviously use a nice Geissele SSF trigger in the M16 platform which I would say is better than anything you will find on an HK.

Wow lots of great insight and advice from all
THANKS !

All of a sudden it doesn't sound like such a great idea

Yes the fightlite makes the most sense now but I do have 2 registered HK sears ( one in an MP5 the other in an MP5K) so if a either a HK kit gun can be built or a clone purchased that would be the way to go.
I've shot M-60s back when in the Army and have fired the 91 full auto but never a 21.
Still kicking myself for passing on that M60 deal ; live and learn.

Where does one pick up either a 21E kit or 21E clone ?

So have you actually shot an HK21 yet?  If not, I'd highly recommend you try one before spending the cash.

The US clone 21E/23E route you have two options.  Mike at Michael's Machines and Carlos of BeltFed Precision Products.

Each outfit has their proponents and/or detractors but I am going to guess that MM has probably built 10X (or more) the number of E guns vs. BPP,   I have never seen a BPP gun in person or shot one but have had direct experience with about half a dozen different MM guns including my own and they all have run. Granted there have been reports online of people with guns from both builders who have had issues as well.  In either case don't expect to write a check and get a gun the following week.  You are probably looking at a multiple month wait at a minimum.

As to a German 21E demilled kit they are pretty rare nowadays.

There was a guy out of Ohio recently who had a truly complete kit  21E, 23E, 11E, 13E parts and all the demilled receiver parts and I believe was asking $80K.   I could dig up his name if you wanted it as I have bought German parts from him in the past.

The last time I talked to Mike Woodard at TSC about 21E parts (granted this was about a year ago) he mentioned he had a demil kit that a customer had changed their mind on the build and was for sale.  I am not sure if he still has it or not.

A friend of mine was recently discussing a similar German 21E project with Mike Otte  and it sounded like Mike may have a complete German 21E kit still available but I don't know if he has any 5.56 conversion kits available.   When I did my gun with Mike a couple year back he wanted some really high dollars for a 23E conversion kit, like $20K or more as I believe it was his last complete 5.56 kit.   I ended up sourcing my 23E kit  through TSC.

The only other option is to just pound the pavement making phone calls and putting out WTB ads and sort through the scammers to try and shake loose a nice demilled kit.

I have all three of the beltfeds mentioned in this thread, the HK21E (both long and short versions), an M60, and the Shrike.

They all have their pros / cons.

M60:

Pros:

- Extensive military Service with a proven design.
- Parts are pretty available from multiple sources.
- Part pricing is mid-tier for a GPMG.
- Slow cyclic rate with pretty gentle recoil. <- This is user preference specific.
- Quasi bullpup type construction that gives it a better center of gravity balance for off-hand shooting.
- Flip up top cover arrangement make loading much easier.
- With high quality parts, is in my experience an extremely reliable gun.

Cons:

- The M60 is still heavy and even being a quasi bullpup arrangement can still be too heavy with a full belt for many folks to accurately/safely fire offhand.
- Slow cyclic rate.  <- For some people having a 600rpm in a belt fed doesn't scratch the "machinegun" itch.
- Poor trigger.
- Full auto only.
- Not super optic friendly.  Even the railed top covers are not ideal for an optic due to POI impact shift having the optic sit on top of a non-precision hinged top cover.
- 308 only.  (unless you own one of the extremely rare 5.56 kits)

HK E:

Pros:

- Converts between 308 and 5.56
- More accurate with a fully free floated barrel
- More optic friendly (although cheek weld to the stock can be a bit of a challenge depending upon the optic)
- Semi-Auto and Burst fire
- Higher Cyclic Rate <- Again subjective
- I personally think they just look way better than the M60 series.
- Better trigger than the M60, not as nice a trigger as a Shrike.

Cons:

- High part cost and German OEM parts are very rare/expensive
- Higher Cyclic Rate vs. an M60
- Loading belts with the swing down feed mech is more difficult than with a flip open top cover arrangement.
- Even though they weight slightly less than the M60, the center of balance is not as nice as the M60 so it a bit harder to shoot off the shoulder, especially when coupled with the higher cyclic rate.  The shorty EK helps and is more on par with the M60 even though the EK is probably 5lbs lighter than the 60.
- Recoil is a bit higher but I have never found any of the E guns  to beat me up.  Sure M60 recoil is softer vs. the 21E  but I never thought the 308 21E recoil was terrible by any stretch. The 5.56 23E is a joy to shoot zipping through belts at 900rpm in a 20+ lbs gun.

Shrike/MCR:

Pros:

- The Shrike is lightweight.  It basically to me doesnt feel all that much different than an M4 with a betamag attached.
- A benefit of being lightweight is that its easy to shoot off the shoulder for most folks and fits in a regular M4 softcase without issue.
- Semi and Full auto and has a better trigger than the M60 (by far) and the 21E.
- Upper acquisition cost is cheap compared to a M60 or HK E gun (clone or not)
- Parts are cheap compared to the other two guns.
- Native cyclic rate is fast.  They can be slowed down but quite often reliability takes a hit.
- Similar top cover feed arrangement as the M60. Easy to load and clear malfunctions.

Cons:

- Shooting them they don't really feel like a GPMG to me.  They really are basically a beltfed M4 and don't really offer a huge shooting experience difference vs. a M4 with a drum.
- Like the M60 they are one caliber only (5.56)
- They can be link sensitive and you may find you need to stretch your links depending upon the ammo/spring/buffer you run.
- There are a lot of Shrikes/MCRs out there, so if you are looking for any type of exclusivity....the Shrike isn't the top gun of the three listed here.
- Being so small and lightweight to me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to shoot them off a fixed mount.  Its similar to setting up an M4 carbine on a tripod.  i.e. why bother.
- Durability /duty-cycle of the lightweight Shrike upper is probably not anywhere near as high on an aluminum and highly skeleton-ized Shrike upper vs an M60 or HK E gun both being solid steel construction. Shrikes used to eat their feed ramps and break off rear lugs but I think that Ares/Fightlite has fixed both of those issues on the latest generations.

Overall they are all great options in a limited transferable belt fed world.  They have their own personalities and I appreciate each gun for its pros.

I also have a 1919A4 and again while I appreciate it for what it is, to me its really not in the same league as the more modern guns listed above as it looks, feels, and shoots every bit of its 100+ year old design age. (although I know others will disagree with me)

If I was to only keep one beltfed it would be the Hk21E/23E primarily due to its caliber flexibility and the fact that I just really like HK machineguns.

Awesome info.
Awesome collection !
Thanks for taking the time.
At this point the dream is kinda dead in the water.  Especially the $80K bit about a German parts set !! Typically time isnt a factor but something has come up. Probably no big deal.
For grins I will call MM and TSC just to feel the water about belt fed clones that can accept registered sears. Thats probably the smart way rather than chopping up a German 91 and adding anything other than German ($$$$) parts.
Perhaps I should get a new Fightlight and call it a day. Can anyone recommend someone other than Ruben M. ? Long story.
On the other hand if the Fightlight feels no different than an M4 with beta mag I do have several Colt IAR uppers and tons of Surefire 60 magazines. Live with what I have ?
A belt fed sure is sexy though.

I would only do a fully German build on a RR G3.

Yeah, sometimes you need to go all in and all HK.

To that end, I remember 10-15 years ago some guy proudly posted pics here of his newly-completed Urbach PSG-1 clone. He had a rare and complete HK PSG-1 parts kit and sent it off to Murray along with…..his PTR host gun. Very head-scratchy decision….

This is the main reason to get a Shrike/MCR in my opinion.

To be fair, the Shrike/MCR does come with a lot of other nice AR/M16 features as well.

- It has a pretty robust piston drive arrangement.
- It has a quick change barrel system.
- Of course it takes belts......which is is primary draw.

Granted its just about as easy to swap an fresh M16 upper onto a M16 lower as it is to swap out a barrel on a Shrike.    And there are no shortage of good piston uppers as well.

So from a purely utilitarian point of view is a MCR/Shrike really that much better than a pile of D60s/Betas and a pair of decent piston uppers to swap back and forth, its hard to say there is an extra $4K of true utilitarian "value" on a Shrike upper vs "2" ~$1000 piston uppers and a couple hundred bucks worth of drums.

However, this isn't really a hobby people get into for utilitarian purposes.  Its not like this is a discussion on what clothes washer/dryer set presents the best "value" for features.

That said,  is there ~$3 to $4K worth of non-tangible extra beltfed goodness to a MCR/Shrike if you already own an M16... my vote would be yes.

will Shrike run on a lower with a RDIAS ?

Yes a Shrike/MCR belt fed upper will run with an RDIAS host based lower.

They will also run with  a Lighting Link as well but require a RLL cut Shrike/MCR bolt carrier.  I actually set up a new Fightlite MCR upper with a RLL for a local friend of mine about a month back.

There is another choice but it ain't cheap.

Lightest true LMG ever used by the US military.
Unique gun that can be converted to 7 different configurations.

As for the Shrike/MCR reliability factor: Might try the VLTOR set up. Longer tube takes a longer proprietary buffer and works great with a SPRINCO green spring. Make sure the feed roller assy is not hitting the back of the receiver. Making custom spacers is a good thing. If you want to slow down the ROF and have great reliability, A A2 stock with the old AAC slowfire buffer and either a cut down MG34 spring or the KAC SR25 spring work great. The KAC has a slightly looser fit and less friction. The Colt hydraulic buffer from their open bolt set up is also a great soft shooting option.

Stoners are really neat guns and its too bad there are not more transferable examples around.

Unfortunately they  are all now $100K+ guns at this point if they have the belt feed parts.

There was one that just went at Morphys for ~$150K+ and one on Sturm that purported to sell for $135K.

Many Stoner63 repair/spare parts are either close to non-existent and/or nuclear in price if you can find them as well.

I have nothing to add but a video of one that almost kept up with the MG42 next to us RPM wise.

This was a old gun friend of mine's (RIP Ron).. he had like 10.5" barrel(s) on it and a recoil buffer in it.

It was sooo much fun to rip belts out of it.

Go to 14 seconds.

Awesome!!

@freeride21a

We own a 21E that was built from a G3.  It does have both calibers but we haven't shot it yet, but we were told the .308 setup would need maintenance after 1000 rounds.

What, specifically? (if you know)

That doesn't sound right. There's an armorer manual and I thought it was 10k rounds

I don't have a specific HK21E Armorers manual  but I do have the ~45 page HK21E "Instructions for Maintenance and Repair" manual.  (maybe those are one in the same)

The HK21E - Instructions for Maintenance and Repair Manual has everything from cleaning and oiling all the way to removing dents from the receiver using the HK specific dent removal tools.  However the version I have has no reference to required maintenance at a specific 1000rd interval.

While not formal HK design engineers....my conversations with Mike at TSC and Mike at MM who are probably some of the most reasonably knowledgeable individuals in the US about these guns there has never been a communicated 1000rd required maintenance either.

I am not saying there isn't an HK document on this somewhere as I am not the end all be all HK21E expert by any stretch.... but if there is a doc listing this HK21E 1K round maintenance requirement  I would also be interested to see what all it includes or if its just a general recommendation to "clean and oil" every 1000rds which is probably more than reasonable.

Since the Fightlite was brought up.. they are a bit finicky. When they run, it is fun. when they don't it is frustrating. They like green tip ammo more, though I usually use 55gr.

Brownells had the MCR uppers available a couple weeks ago, but they sold out. Note, they are not easy to find but you're probably aware of that. I believe Ruben sells them as well, but they are expensive there too. Also note that if you get the upper standalone, you may get the full bolt carrier, You'll have to check to see.
Brownells still has the complete rifle in stock.. which comes only with the semi auto carrier. Really sucks because you have to buy a full auto carrier which is very expensive.

I just bought one of these on a non german receiver (RDTS)




I have yet to drop my sear in and shoot it, was gone for a month when I returned home caught the flu, finally getting over it, hoping to take it out next week
And yes the barrel is that short

Personally, if I had a registered receiver front pushpin G3 and 21E or 23E parts, I would send it to Ralph Sr at RDTS or Terry Dyer, assuming either will do conversions on RR MGs. If starting from scratch and you don’t have any E parts, I’d probably just look for a registered channel RIA M60 and convert it to E6.