Hey experts,

Looking for some input on duty/carry loads. When I work OCONUS, I've always been issued something like a Speer GD 124 +P or the HST and Winchester Ranger equivalents. So I've always figured those rounds were safe bet for personal purchase here at home. But being home, I have more options that I have at work so my questions are:

1) In terms of 9mm, which performs better 124gr +P or 147gr? Does platform dictate (handgun v PCC)?

2) What would perform better ballistically in an urban environment: Some type of K sized PCC loaded with 124 +P or 147's or Sig Rattler with Hornady 190gr SUB-X?

I have a Sig Rattler that I just picked up some of the SUB-X for but I have no way of testing velocities or terminal performance. I'm wondering if an MPX(k) loaded with some type of 9mm would perform better. FYI, both running suppressed.

Thank for your time!

147 grn hollowpoints will likely stay closer to their expansion window than 124 grn +P out of a 16" bbl.  Proven defense hollowpoints in 9x19mm are likely to be at least as effective as .300 Blackout subsonic loads.

If you're going subsonic in the house, the only reason to go Blackout is the ability to switch to supers.

How far will you shoot?  I always prefer a rifle.
I have killed a deer with a BO subsonic at a hundred yards. Don’t think I could do that with a 9mm.

GD or HST will be superior to 300 blk subsonic sub-x load.

Regarding the 300blk compared to 9mm, Military Arms Channel has a video on YouTube where he compares 9mm vs the 300blk velocity and energy.

I remember the video showing that the 300blk is going to have more energy and fps, but if you're using subsonic 300blk, not by much. Supersonic ammo is 3-4x times the energy of 9mm. Subsonic just a little more than 9mm.

Personally, I have a Rattler and really like it. However, in hindsight, i wish I had either gone with a slightly longer barrel 7-8") or a 9mm carbine. The 7-8" would give me more suppressor choices (mainly my Omega 9k) and the 9mm carbine i could actually see myself using at the range for fun instead of barely touching the rattler due to ammo cost.

Thanks for testing.  Glad to see the standard pressure 147 grn remained subsonic in a 16" bbl.

If you can ring a steel torso at 100 yards using your 9mm pistol, why bother building something just physically bigger...unless it is going to be a range toy that likes cheap ammo.  

300 with mono metal supers to compliment a 9mm on the waist.

Put a collapsing / folding brace on it and then ask yourself why you would ever consider a 9mm pdw for work.

Hey SMT-long time no see!

One reason is that with all the braces available for true handguns these days, they make a god case for a 9mm PDW you'll actually have with you than the rifle cum PDW you left in your dedicated "laptop" bag back in your trunk. I've got a USW-A1 and it's everything I need in a PDW and a lot of things that an AR in .300 isn't.... namely it's not a rifle, it's a handgun you can holster but fire from the shoulder like a rifle. And it totally works.

Data proves otherwise. There's a reason why year after year, SOF, agencies, departments more and more are making the swap. 300BLK, especially paired with a micro assault rifle like the AAC/Q HB is without a doubt one of the biggest small arms advancements of the last half century. This year Wolf will have same priced super and subsonic 300blk as 5.56. 5-10 years you will see more sub 5lb "micro assault rifles" being developed as this sector kicks off IMO. Personally, I think there is too much "just as good" "fad caliber" nonsense that comes from the ammo still being noticeably more expensive, however that will change soon and those same individs will flipflop.

Let's ignore super sonic completely right now and compare. Assume barrel length choice is done in fashion both stay subsonic 1000fps. Also use IMO a more comparable 300blk subsonic round to 9mm HST in regards to expansion focus, Discreet Ballistics.
-9mm HST 147gr Muzzle energy: 326 ftlbs 100yd: 273ftlbs
-300blk DB 188gr Muzzle energy: 417 ftlbs 100yd: 373ftlbs
That's a 37% more energy gain. At same time, versatility of 220gr subsonic can be used for even more energy (448ftlbs and 437ftlbs @100yds) and offers more penetration power against soft armor.

Combine this with the ability to switch to super sonic, it's not even close. But even in a strict subsonic role, 300BLK still outperforms. Especially consider the platforms available, the fact 300 sub will recoil noticeably less than a 9mm PCC and you have all the benefits from STANAG mag size.

As for the 5.5" Rattler, yeah once you go past that 7" magic length, the ballistics suffer greatly (extrapolating that to 5.56 is like going from a 11.5" to 8"), but assuming using the right ammo, I'd take the rifle (300blk) every time over, and the ballistics show (albeit a closer gap)

Neat argument, but the data you post is for subsonic bullets.  Under 2100 fps, for the most part, energy doesn't matter - it's expansion & penetration, and our ordinary 9x19mm modern hollowpoint reliably penetrates @ least 12" in ballistics gel.  It also starts out at .355" before it expands, whereas .300 Blackout starts @ .308".  .300 Blackout has to expand to .355" before it's as effective as 9x19mm FMJ.  .45 ACP starts larger than 9x19mm - and surgeons apparently can't tell the difference between a modern 9x19mm hollowpoint load & a .45 ACP hollowpoint wound in the emergency room.  Pistol bullets suck @ killing people compared to supersonic rifle rounds - and .300 Blackout subs are effectively a pistol bullet - and very expensive ones @ that.

Once you get out past 100 yds, sure, subsonic Blackout has much better ballistics than 9x19mm, .40 S&W, & .45 ACP b/c of bullet shape, so if you're hunting past 100 yds w/ a subsonic bullet, then .300 Blackout makes sense.  As far as recoil, yes, most Blackout platforms are gas-operated locked breech, but subsonic Blackout can likely be run in a straight blowback action, and 9x19mm, & .45 ACP are available in delayed blowback and gas operated locked breech actions as well, so your recoil argument is purely down to action chosen for subsonic rounds.

The great advantage Blackout possesses over comparable pistol rounds is the ability to go super - where it competes directly w/ the far cheaper 7.62x39mm.  If you want to go on about mag size, 9x19mm will fit in far more magazines than .300 Blackout, and there are multiple 9mm cross-platform magazine form factors that are already widely possessed.

I think a 220 grain 300blk round is more comparable to a 230 grain 45acp round. Both are good choices for self defense. 300blk is probably going to penetrate more being a thinner longer bullet. 45acp will leave a larger hole. Hunting 300blk all the way. Home defense it's more of a toss up, but I'd probably lean towards 45acp. Now supersonic 300blk blows any subsonic round out of the water.

Why would I post data on supersonics? They blow a subgun out of the water, not sure I follow you? This is the very reason subguns are on the way out.

You are right about the importance of expansion and penetration in subsonic velocities in regards to lethality, but then proceed with hypothetical opinion when the facts are just a websearch away! Come on! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSWt0cZzeVw
The 188gr DB "the HST of the 300blk subsonic" - 15" penetration. Expands a lot more than HST as the rifle bullet shape can take advantage of the long length https://discreetballistics.com/shop/300aac-blackout/

As awesome as 300blk subs are, the whole point of the LVC/LVAW concept was the ability to be discreet with better lethality, range then the MP5SD, quieter, and be able to pop in a real fighting round (300blk supersonic) if things kicked off. To do that you need a gas-operated breech. Of course it's being compared to blowback 9mm, what action are most subguns? Blowback, even if roller delayed like the MP5. So why this would be an unfair comparison I don't get, this is the actuality of use of the calibers in platforms.

As for the mag size, I think you are missing the point being made. There's more gear available for STANAG mag use and arguably leaps and bounds more preferred than any sub mag. Regarding price, as mentioned that is about to change, but the circles 300BLK is being used in most probably don't care about ammo price anyhow.. But yes, 9mm less than half the price of a 300blk and leaps and bounds more available, doesn't change the ballistic facts.

Any case, I post this as there is so much "basically a 45" bad info out there. I really don't care if you think 9mm "just as good".

As far as basically a 45 posted, yeah sure if you are using a 45+p, don't care about the 12" dope at 100yd, don't like less recoil and weight, don't like AR mags, or care about being able to flip to 11 by popping in a supersonic mag. Basically just as good

Why not use Barnes 110gr VOR-TX with the can? Is your can rated for that short of a barrel withs supers?

If we are talking supers, .300blk laughs at IIIa armor which would stop pistol caliber.  Sub 2 MOA accuracy with factory defensive/hunting loads is expected.

.300blk does NOT compete with 7.62x39 because no one wants to shoot 7.62x39 out of an 8.5 inch barrel, nor can 7.62x39 go subsonic with a mag swap, nor can it easily feed from the AR platform.  

You do have a point on price, then again....we are all just waiting for this to show up Wolf 145gr 300blk for 0.20/rnd with free shipping.   Seems like we've been waiting for about 5 months now.  

I think the bigger story is the 5.5" barrel, where pistol calibers start to make more sense. That is on the shorter side for .300blk.  Not impossible, but a lot of velocity gets left on the table (for supers at least).  But Tac-tx rounds would work pretty well.

Speaking of velocity...I've seen 1800 fps, 2100 fps, 2200 fps, 2600 fps (and some even higher speeds) tossed around.  There are a ton of variables that go into "rifle damage".  I really don't know where the line is, but I don't worry about it anymore.   Velocity by itself means little, same for energy.

I'll go with Fackler:
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY






Fragmenting ammo FTW!


https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5759573_Ten_Common_Myths_of_Ballistic_Injuries

1) I'm selling the everliving shit out of Dracos;
2) 7.62x29mm subsonic is the only 7.62x39mm we have in stock, and I only have about 6 boxes left;
3) Unimags.

1. And 300blk?, I mean...right now isn't almost everything selling?
2. Similar to #1...isn't almost all ammo out of stock?
3. Hit or miss with those, which is the thing with subsonic AK's in general.   It has gotten better, but it is still just "iffy".  I can pop a mag of subsonic in my 300 and it runs just fine.  I don't even have a can.  (I've done this because for awhile, S&B FMJ subs were cheaper than supers....so I shot those).

When AAC updated the Whisper, it was meant to take on suppressed 9mm (as the OP is discussing).  I just don't think this is a Draco's lane.

With monolithic solid copper bullets like Barnes TAC-X in 9mm or their TSX in rifle loads, you can go lighter, faster, still have barrier blind penetration, reliable expansion, high weight retention (approaching 100%) and superb terminal ballistics.

In my carry 9mm I run the Barnes 9mm 115 (yes 115) +P+ load.  I have used handloaded Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets in hunting rifles for decades.

Here is a review of the 9mm TAC-X 115 +P load.  My box looks a little different, as it is the Buffalo Bore loading, yellow and blue.  It is a hotter +P+ loading, clocking a smoking 1400 +/- from most 4-6” 9mm pistol barrels.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/ammo-test-barnes-barnes-tac-xpd-9mm-p/

The Buffalo Bore loading:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=118

I’ve not chronoed it in my Browning FN Hi-Power, but should be just a tad over 1400 fps.

This is pricey stuff, but for duty or personal defense, it’s strong medicine.

To me the only benefit of 300blk is the ability to switch to supers.  Otherwise I don’t want to deal with proprietary shit, PCC that takes glock mags is low a low logistic drag setup.

Going back to the original question.

1.) Depends on who you ask and which day the test is run.  Is the goal to stay subsonic with the 147 since you are indoors?
2.) Seems like an odd question.  Super sonic 9mm vs subsonic 9mm vs subsonic.300blk.   The best of the group BY FAR is not listed: Supersonic .300blk.

The Sig with Sub-X is good for two things.....shooting yotes in your yard without waking anyone.....or high speed low drag operating operators that sneak up and shoot sentries in the head when infiltrating oil rigs being held by terrorists.  

If you are determined to go with a pistol caliber (and you are not using a handgun), go with 10mm.