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Posted: 12/20/2019 1:12:12 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://live.staticflickr.com/1543/26327976255_62dca3c3d1_b.jpgDSC_5312-Turkey SBS by FredMan, on Flickr https://live.staticflickr.com/5572/31025554082_be15eda405_b.jpgRooster Action Shoot by FredMan, on Flickr https://live.staticflickr.com/4886/46174162064_b18c5de7a8_b.jpgE&F Drop The Hammer by FredMan, on Flickr 
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Posted: 12/20/2019 2:49:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A shotgun being difficult to operate. It's like the easiest thing out there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Okay, I have to know. What did I say that was off? 
The Benelli M4 seems great but it's still ergonomically terrible. I kind of like that new IWI shotgun but it's still got some major un-intuitive drawbacks. |
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Posted: 12/20/2019 3:07:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe it's just me, I'm all fumble fingers with shotguns. It's like trying to learn how to fly an un-ergonomic antique plane to me.
The Benelli M4 seems great but it's still ergonomically terrible. I kind of like that new IWI shotgun but it's still got some major un-intuitive drawbacks. |
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Posted: 12/20/2019 4:11:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: I've flown a Stearman Biplane. Using a shotgun is much easier. The shotgun has like 3 controls including a simple push button safety and trigger. That's counting the slide or bolt on an autoloader. Stuff shells in tube, work action, shoot, repeat until empty. Stuff in more large shells into larger hole. When I switched from an 870 to an 1100, I admit it took me about 2 minutes of practice to get the shell latch thing down.
Hell, I've watched guys running a pump shooting sporting clays... bragging about how they don't need a fancy Semi or O/U, and then when you throw a true pair, they short stroke on the second shell and practically propel themselves out of the box jerking the trigger before they realize it. Ever watch some one try to load a shell in brass first?? Or not get it in all the way? I'm not surprised Ex cops like Shot guns... but I'm guessing after a generation or two of younger guys running Patrol rifles, the shotgun will go the way of the Colt Single action. Again Low magazine capacity Ammo is big and bulky slow to reload Hard Recoil Tight patterns that require aiming like any other forearm Easy to short stroke Again, why would I want to use a shotgun?? Everyone likes to talk about the horrific wounds, yet no one wants a 5.56 to the head... game over. |
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Posted: 12/20/2019 4:44:28 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've heard that many times....As I watch a lot of folks, Short stroke a Pump when there under a little duress like a shot timer...
Hell, I've watched guys running a pump shooting sporting clays... bragging about how they don't need a fancy Semi or O/U, and then when you throw a true pair, they short stroke on the second shell and practically propel themselves out of the box jerking the trigger before they realize it. Ever watch some one try to load a shell in brass first?? Or not get it in all the way? I'm not surprised Ex cops like Shot guns... but I'm guessing after a generation or two of younger guys running Patrol rifles, the shotgun will go the way of the Colt Single action. Again Low magazine capacity Ammo is big and bulky slow to reload Hard Recoil Tight patterns that require aiming like any other forearm Easy to short stroke Again, why would I want to use a shotgun?? Everyone likes to talk about the horrific wounds, yet no one wants a 5.56 to the head... game over. work that way. Like, maybe not a lot of the time. The head is a pretty small target at 20-30 feet. 10 yards for a shotgun, and the spread is anywhere between 5-10 inches, depending on the load.  Understanding Shotgun Patterns With 12ga Buckshot (HD) |
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Posted: 12/20/2019 5:08:57 PM EDT
[#6]
I cut my teeth on a shotgun. It's able to be shot almost anywhere where I grew up in the woods, so we would shoot skeet, trap, throw clays, shoot cans, etc. I have been doing that since I was 10 years old. Didn't touch an AR till college, and that was one range trip. didn't own one till I was like 24. So decades of practice and familiarity factor in.
another thought is my wife. She doesn't like rifles. she doesn't want to learn how to work one or shoot one, but she loves shooting shotguns. So while an AR would be arguably a better choice for most situations, it's not for her. I think the fear of body armor equipped baddies is overblown. All but the military footage and movies show that when lead starts flying, people go running away. That said a shotgun sending an ounce of lead or basically the entire mag worth of an M&P shield in one pull is pretty persuasive. I like shotguns, I'm good with them, I know what they can and can't do. I keep an AR SBR handy for me but the wife gets an old school double barrel 12. It's what she wants, and I wouldn't piss her off wielding it. 
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Posted: 12/20/2019 5:15:29 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've flown a Stearman Biplane. Using a shotgun is much easier. The shotgun has like 3 controls including a simple push button safety and trigger. That's counting the slide or bolt on an autoloader. Stuff shells in tube, work action, shoot, repeat until empty. Stuff in more large shells into larger hole. When I switched from an 870 to an 1100, I admit it took me about 2 minutes of practice to get the shell latch thing down. It would take some major training to learn how to load a shotgun under stress. |
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Posted: 12/20/2019 5:22:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I cut my teeth on a shotgun. It's able to be shot almost anywhere where I grew up in the woods, so we would shoot skeet, trap, throw clays, shoot cans, etc. I have been doing that since I was 10 years old. Didn't touch an AR till college, and that was one range trip. didn't own one till I was like 24. So decades of practice and familiarity factor in. another thought is my wife. She doesn't like rifles. she doesn't want to learn how to work one or shoot one, but she loves shooting shotguns. So while an AR would be arguably a better choice for most situations, it's not for her. I think the fear of body armor equipped baddies is overblown. All but the military footage and movies show that when lead starts flying, people go running away. That said a shotgun sending an ounce of lead or basically the entire mag worth of an M&P shield in one pull is pretty persuasive. I like shotguns, I'm good with them, I know what they can and can't do. I keep an AR SBR handy for me but the wife gets an old school double barrel 12. It's what she wants, and I wouldn't piss her off wielding it. https://i.imgur.com/o54svB9.jpg?1 ARs are much easier and less scary to use than shotguns.
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Posted: 12/20/2019 6:33:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Except, on the two way range, where you think you will be able to put that well placed round into a moving target, it doesn't always work that way. Like, maybe not a lot of the time. The head is a pretty small target at 20-30 feet. 10 yards for a shotgun, and the spread is anywhere between 5-10 inches, depending on the load.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddvkPIh0z3UNo thanks, I'll stick with my Rifle. |
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Posted: 12/21/2019 7:02:29 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your wife doesn't make sense. ARs are much easier and less scary to use than shotguns.
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Posted: 12/21/2019 12:13:35 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@556Cliff if she was rational she wouldn't have married me Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Your wife doesn't make sense. ARs are much easier and less scary to use than shotguns.
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Posted: 12/21/2019 12:14:06 PM EDT
[#12]
My partner dumped a guy from 9 yards with Federal 00B. DRT. Maybe even before he hit the ground. Couldn't really ask him.
Another one of our guys shot a guy in the neck with a 12 ga 1 oz slug at 98 yards. The recipient of the slug hand just beat another officer unconscious and was trying to remove the unconscious officers pistol from the holster. Also DRT. The officer that did the shooting was a USMC sniper before coming in the job. He may or may not have related he was upset because he was aiming for his head. Both shootings were before we were issued rifles.I have to admit, at close range shotguns work very well. On this side of 100 with slugs in the hands of a capable person they work pretty good too. That being said, rifles are more versatile and much quicker to reload. I carry a rifle. The guys that were in this shootings carried rifles once they were issued. |
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Posted: 12/21/2019 12:52:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Jill, buy a double barreled shotgun baby.
 Standard Manufacturing DP-12 Slugfest |
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Posted: 12/21/2019 3:05:51 PM EDT
[#14]
 DP-12 The Best Home Defense Shotgun Ever Invented |
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Posted: 12/22/2019 12:07:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If they made one that's as easy to use as an AR I might consider one. I don't feel like I'm asking for much in that regard either, it's almost 2020 after all. And AK versions exist |
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Posted: 12/22/2019 7:54:34 AM EDT
[#16]
There is so much derp in this thread...
My two cents. You cannot account for the flight path of the wadding. Period. I don't want to fire something that produces an errant projectile that I CANT control that CAN still kill someone. If you've never shot a live, moving target, like, actually moving with intent to kill you please don't comment on "aiming for the head". Good lord people... |
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Posted: 12/23/2019 1:32:48 AM EDT
[#17]
Breaching a door.
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Posted: 12/23/2019 10:39:22 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Works both ways. This also helps illustrate that you can miss at close range with a shotgun. The shot pattern from across-the-room distance is only an inch or two. Not arguing one way or the other, but you do still need to do more than just point in the general direction and let loose. As to possibly missing on the first shot, like with a rifle or pistol, double tap. You have the remainder of an extended tube magazine at your disposal, if needed. Repeat as necessary. |
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Posted: 12/23/2019 10:43:44 AM EDT
[#19]
Ultimately, it's about the recoil. A lot of people, just can't handle the smack of a 12 gauge shotgun. I used to feel sorry for the females in our academy on shotgun days.
A .223 kicks like a Red Ryder BB gun. Much easier to train people with that amount of recoil. |
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Posted: 12/23/2019 12:46:15 PM EDT
[#20]
With reliable 10/12 round mags available, it's hard to argue that a SBS mag fed shotgun isn't good for home defense. I don't have a giant house, so I wouldn't be shooting at some guy 100 yards away. People keep talking about long range and high capacities. I'm not opposed to them but let's not forget the stats. It's exceptionally unlikely that you'll be in a shootout at all...and SUPER unlikely, like time to buy a lottery ticket and meteor strike insurance, that you'll be in a protracted gun fight and need super high capacity. If you do, mag changes on an S12 are plenty fast. Throw a light and aimpoint on this bad boy and go to work. |
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Posted: 12/23/2019 12:55:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ultimately, it's about the recoil. A lot of people, just can't handle the smack of a 12 gauge shotgun. I used to feel sorry for the females in our academy on shotgun days. A .223 kicks like a Red Ryder BB gun. Much easier to train people with that amount of recoil.
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Posted: 12/23/2019 1:02:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If they made one that's as easy to use as an AR I might consider one. I don't feel like I'm asking for much in that regard either, it's almost 2020 after all. And AK versions exist |
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Posted: 12/23/2019 7:30:12 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I admit I'm not a fan of heavy recoiling guns of any kind, and it's one of the reasons why I only own guns chambered in 5.56 and 9mm. I'm like a giant girl in that way.
Seriously my 9 yr old grandson is fine with a mossberg 20ga pump. |
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Posted: 12/23/2019 11:09:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So 45-70 is probably not on your list either?
Seriously my 9 yr old grandson is fine with a mossberg 20ga pump. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I admit I'm not a fan of heavy recoiling guns of any kind, and it's one of the reasons why I only own guns chambered in 5.56 and 9mm. I'm like a giant girl in that way.
Seriously my 9 yr old grandson is fine with a mossberg 20ga pump.
My Mom has a 20 gauge semi auto Benelli that seems to recoil harder than any 12 gauge shotgun I've ever shot... Oddly enough she is willing to shoot that but she is afraid to shoot an AR. 
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Posted: 12/24/2019 7:46:13 AM EDT
[#25]
Just for the heck of it...
Resident with shotgun kills 3 during home invasion I'm not even a huge fan of the shotgun, but it definitely has some advantages versus multiple, unarmored opponents at close range. |
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Posted: 12/24/2019 9:00:06 AM EDT
[#26]
Anyone have sound metering data on a Shotgun with varied loads and barrel lengths?
Simply firing a handgun inside of a home was enough to ring my ears and leave me with hearing damage in my right ear. A rifle sans suppressor is in the 160-170 DB range. I'm curious to see if a shotgun is in the same neighborhood. |
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Posted: 12/24/2019 9:06:10 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's why they used brass shotshells. Also the Germans complained to the Geneva convention that shotguns were immoral for use against people. They were great trench weapons. 100 YEARS AGO and I do believe shit might have changed a little since then in the world of Firearms development. Just a little... |
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Posted: 12/24/2019 9:16:26 AM EDT
[#28]
It's always nice to have options in the arsenal. I have my Rem 870 and my old school double barrel with hammers if I need to throw some buckshot. I grew up shooting shotguns more than rifles in my early days hunting birds so feel very comfortable with the recoil.
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Posted: 12/24/2019 9:33:56 AM EDT
[#29]
Shooting doves.
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Posted: 12/24/2019 9:54:42 AM EDT
[#30]
Options in my opinion makes it a versatile tool. Buckshot is extremely effective if your close. Slugs make it effective out to moderate range or against soft armor or windshields. Change rounds and you have a less lethal tool at your disposal.
Shotguns are also extremely reliable when neglected. I’ve seen shotguns taken out of racks that were so full of dust and lint that it looked like they were drug behind a truck. Had guys talk about when they had pool cars other guys using them as ash trays. Or dumping candy/straw wrappers out of them. However since your doing the cycling you can over come this to a greater degree. You can break the shell latches or completely remove them and run an 870. No lube or over lubed and they will still work. A rifle is an amazing tool but it’s not as versatile noir as tolerant of neglect/abuse. The two biggest detractors for shotguns in my opinion are capacity and ability to defeat armor. On the capacity side of things shotgun fights don’t typically last that long since a hit is generally a DRT. As for armor a slug Center mass or to the pelvic girdle still is a very likely stop. With the above said still need correct tools for the job and one won’t accomplish all things in all situations. |
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Posted: 12/24/2019 10:27:29 PM EDT
[#31]
There is not a single civilian situation where I would want to use less than lethal munitions in a Firearm.
There is not a single situation in a law enforcement capacity where I would want to use less than lethal munitions in a Firearm. |
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Posted: 12/26/2019 10:58:11 AM EDT
[#32]
Always have a need for a good shotgun for up and close. I keep a Benelli M4 Super 90 by the bed loaded with 7 rounds of 3" #1 buck. Course that's to get to the M4, PKM or Mk44 Minigun in the next room, 5' away.
CD |
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Posted: 12/26/2019 11:22:57 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone have sound metering data on a Shotgun with varied loads and barrel lengths? Simply firing a handgun inside of a home was enough to ring my ears and leave me with hearing damage in my right ear. A rifle sans suppressor is in the 160-170 DB range. I'm curious to see if a shotgun is in the same neighborhood. As for the poster earlier worried about where the plastic wad goes, i had never thought of that before, so Tuesday i decided to pay attention. From 25 yards i fired 4 00 buck, normal remington, nothing fancy, 18.5 cyl bore. All pellets and wads on sillouette standard opota target. Also tried cheap walmart slugs, same results. |
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Posted: 12/28/2019 3:06:15 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A 12 gauge shotgun is considerably more versatile then most any other firearm out there. There is a reason the 12 gauge is still it use for so many things. And sometimes, a big slug of lead will do amazing things. https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-6-ballistic-resistant-glass-gets-tested/ https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth/ A Benelli is great for this because (to quote the 1995 PC game S.W.A.T.) "An inappropriate load can be quickly substituted for a more suitable ammunition type, increasing the shotgun's tactical flexibility." It has come in handy a few times. Also something that certainly doesn't apply to everyone but shotguns have less legal red tape in some areas. In Canada for example, AR-15s must be kept unloaded and in a safe at all times. A higher level firearms license is required to own an AR-15 and they can not legally be used for anything but target shooting. If you get caught blasting pests with one or cruising around with one you might be in some trouble. On the other hand most shotguns do not have to be kept in a safe and if you are using it for predator control can be stored unlocked as long as it is unloaded. So not so much a performance/mechanical advantage but a very real advantage for some people. |
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Posted: 12/28/2019 11:00:07 PM EDT
[#35]
dupe
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Posted: 12/28/2019 11:06:43 PM EDT
[#36]
There is one in my safe room. My anticipated shot distance is between 1 and 3 feet. thru a pine door. I am OK with a shotgun in that scenario. If you want to tie up $2000 worth of AR in a closet for the next 20 years, OK.
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Posted: 12/29/2019 9:49:00 PM EDT
[#37]
I can't argue with anything you said! I have two 12 gauges, and they are not fun to shoot at all. First time I ran one my chest was all bruised up. Like I said in the original post, I can see if you are in a hallway with someone and you want the 8 or 9 pellets to stop one person quickly. But other than that I don't see it.
I completely agree with the point on the spread. Imagine any type of hostage situation. A guy has someone with a gun to their head. How do you even pull the trigger if you have a shotgun? I'd be too scared to shoot them both. Also, aren't 14.5", 11.5" and even 10.5" ARs sufficient ballistically? If I ever had to grab one of my firearms for any type of SHTF or bump in the night I'm grabbing my 10'5" 5.56 pistol. Got an optic, flashlight and 29 rounds. Put one 9mm pistol on my hip and I'm out the door. Would definitely feel like that's easier to maneuver/manipulate than a 18"ish shotgun! |
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Posted: 12/29/2019 10:54:12 PM EDT
[#38]
If your chest was all bruised up, you were not holding it right.
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Posted: 12/29/2019 11:27:32 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't argue with anything you said! I have two 12 gauges, and they are not fun to shoot at all. First time I ran one my chest was all bruised up. Like I said in the original post, I can see if you are in a hallway with someone and you want the 8 or 9 pellets to stop one person quickly. But other than that I don't see it. I completely agree with the point on the spread. Imagine any type of hostage situation. A guy has someone with a gun to their head. How do you even pull the trigger if you have a shotgun? I'd be too scared to shoot them both. Also, aren't 14.5", 11.5" and even 10.5" ARs sufficient ballistically? If I ever had to grab one of my firearms for any type of SHTF or bump in the night I'm grabbing my 10'5" 5.56 pistol. Got an optic, flashlight and 29 rounds. Put one 9mm pistol on my hip and I'm out the door. Would definitely feel like that's easier to maneuver/manipulate than a 18"ish shotgun! |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 10:45:50 AM EDT
[#40]
Picture a charging hog. About 25 yards away, beelining toward you.
I had a 5.56 semi, guy next to me had a Benelli M4 12ga Because of the speed of the target, the sight offset of the rifle at close range, and the hardiness of the animal itself, my rounds were not very effective. I hit it several times, but it was the 12ga that put him down hard and fast. 95% of the time I’ll take a rifle, but I personally discovered one instance where the shotgun was clearly the better choice.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 10:50:20 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shotguns were rarely issued and the ammo would swell since they were paper shells. They had a demoralizing effect on soldiers..... OURS. In the Philippine Insurrection, they worked very well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not LEO, but... Ww1 I think it was, shotguns had a demoralizing effect on german soldiers in trench warfare. I'm not debating, but there's something to that. Discuss In the Philippine Insurrection, they worked very well. |
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Posted: 1/4/2020 11:53:01 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have both available for duty use and use the shotgun ig going into a residence or other building smaller than a walmart. |
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Posted: 1/6/2020 5:11:41 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://i.imgur.com/kJikSbc.jpg But my room clearing trench broom.... Heavy low capacity heavy recoil limited range difficult to reload quickly need to aim Easy to short stroke on a pump For the life of me, I don't know why anyone would choose a shotgun over a rifle/carbine. other then the Hollywood romance that makes the shot gun seem way better then what it is... Even a 10x10” group at 50 yards, knocks a deer down, dead right there with a composite entry wound and wound channel that is like congealed goop. My complaint, frankly, for deer hunting, is excessive meat damage. |
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Posted: 1/24/2020 7:09:49 AM EDT
[#44]
Isn’t a single12 gauge slug to the chest way more likely to stop a bad guy in his tracks, armor or not? Hard to argue with that.
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Posted: 1/26/2020 1:20:06 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
when faced with large angry beasts intent on turning you into a turd....12ga. with good slugs.... |
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Posted: 1/26/2020 11:54:32 PM EDT
[#46]
Obviously a rifle is more versatile, but some of the posts here are insane. Suddenly shotguns are hard to use and lack lethality?
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Posted: 1/27/2020 1:07:32 AM EDT
[#47]
KynShot Recoil reducer
If a pump 12ga recoils too hard for you, add one of these. They really do work and it cuts recoil in half. Or you could buy a 20ga and add one. |
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Posted: 1/28/2020 1:55:58 PM EDT
[#48]
I can run my pump gun half decent but after a while my arm gets tired of all that.......pumping
It's not something I'm going to grab for any use other than shooting clays or birds. We have a local multigun match here that loves to have long 30+ round shotgun stages. Gets old and eats up a lot of time. I much prefer to run 2 gun matches but a shotgun in there everyonce in a while is fun too. |
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