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Posted: 4/2/2002 4:44:46 AM EDT
[#1]
Non-Demilled rifled cannon are quite rare in the US, at least in civilian hands. They are strictly controlled, and the gov't is making an inventory of all the cannon, etc. that it has donated to Vet's orgs, etc., and ensuring that they are where they are supposed to be, and actually de-milled.
While shells are not controlled, and are not uncommon, non-dummy projectiles, especially explosive ones are not only rare, but rigidly controlled. Reloading data for salute-type shells exists, but reloading data for projectile-loaded shells in hard to come by for obvious reasons. In short, the information you seek, if applied, would lead to an illegal (in the US) act, unless the individual had rather rare permits. |
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Posted: 4/2/2002 4:52:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Well Canada has NO caliber limit, in theory I could build as big a cannon as I want, and I have a source of 75mm cannon barrels. I am just wondering where I could get some non-explosive dummy ammo or anything I can reload. I would think if anyone with some information from either the military or some website could fill me in on what I need.
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Posted: 4/2/2002 4:58:21 AM EDT
[#3]
While I am not entirely sure, I believe that any such items in the US are subject to export controls. Even some "dummies" can be re-milled.
Sorry, but I can't and won't help you. |
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Posted: 4/2/2002 5:16:39 AM EDT
[#4]
From a legal standpoint there are as many restrictions on deactivated munitions as there are on any other inert object. I have bought inert grenades and ammo from the USA. There has never been a problem. The worst I have had to endure is ebay saying that the object must be filled with a inert solid substance, but that is there own personal rule, not law.
Well thanks anyways, I needed someone to scare the entire board because you are unsure what the laws are and are not. Your ignorance has helped to impede the simple harmless knowledge I seek by giving the impression I am somehow seeking to brake the law. The BATF need not pass any laws, in your mind they already exist. |
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Posted: 4/2/2002 5:17:02 AM EDT
[#5]
Art Alphin has load data for the 105x608 cannon used on the M-60A1 tank in his book "Any Shot You Want". Propellants listed are a variety of RAD charges with appropriate projectiles (APDS, HEAT, etc.). May be a starting point if you care to pursue. BTW there is a loosely organized association of crew-served weapons owners that holds yearly shoots in the desert near Las Vegas. Don't remember the name, but it's mentioned in "Unintended Consequences". |
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Posted: 4/2/2002 5:19:51 AM EDT
[#6]
Thanks alot Arock!
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Posted: 4/2/2002 5:49:39 AM EDT
[#7]
While you may not believe me, I actually DO have some first-hand experience on dealing with the Gov't, Army Materiel Command, and the BATF on the subject of Cannon and the like. As Armorer for the Artillery Company of Newport (RI, US) I had numerous instances of dealing with all the above orgs on a variety of issues, including, but not limited to cannon. I do not claim to be an authority on the law, but seeing how the various Gov't orgs can (and do) perform an instant regulatory back-flip, my general rule is to deal with them, and the regulations and laws in general, with a great deal of caution. It must be wonderful to live in Canada, where such things are much less regulated. I wonder why anybody would want to leave. |
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Posted: 4/2/2002 6:04:47 AM EDT
[#8]
Well raf I can understand your hesitation, its better to say nothing then take a chance at jail time.
As for the whole cannon issue, it looks like its one of those things no one in this whole country has even tried to explore! I have been in contact with a importer here of artilery pieces and he has told me its fully legal. Thing is cannons and such cannot be shipped "active", they must be demilled first. This seriously limits what I can and cannot do. Then there will be the huge price tag per shot. I am just planning for a possible future project. You being in the US mil wouldnt know of any load data from the us 75mm shell? I might avoid the 75mm completely and go for something else. Not to sure yet... |
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Posted: 4/2/2002 6:15:02 AM EDT
[#9]
I'm not in the US military. I'm a LT in the ACN, a State Militia. No, it's not one of those militias, my Commission is signed by the governor of RI.
I honesly do not have, nor do I know where to obtain the data you seek. BTW, wasn't Gerald Bull, one of the world's foremost artillery designers prior to his assassination, a Canadian? |
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Posted: 4/2/2002 6:34:36 AM EDT
[#10]
Yup, he was, but then Israel decided to have him killed for helping in the development of Iraqi missiles. |
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Posted: 4/4/2002 8:36:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Actually, can't a canon be made in the US on a Form 1 ?
I saw Demilled 75mm Canons for sale somewhere or the other recently. but, off the top of my head I cannot recall who the seller was. |
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Posted: 4/4/2002 8:53:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Yeah, a 105mm howitzer is just a destructive device. You should be able to manufacture it on a form 1(if legal in your state and signed off). Only downside is each round would also be a DD and require a $200 stamp. So it'd be really expensive to use. Most CLEO's would probably not sign off on DD's, but if you state is like maryland and NFA signoff is shall issue by the state police(only thing my stupid state does right) it shouldn't be a problem.
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:00:49 PM EDT
[#13]
Actually, the ammo for a DD is only a DD if it goes BANG. Inert, non-exploding projectiles are not considered DD's. They must have a specific amount of explosive contained in order to be considered a DD. Same thing the 40MM guys go through, they use training rounds that do not explode, so no $200 per shot. Infact, you could have a .50BMG round that would be considered a DD. The Raffous rounds are just under the limit, IIRC. But if loaded with a little more HE, and $200 a pop. Edited to fix broken quote |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:16:35 PM EDT
[#14]
75mm,now thats a DAMM big reloading press!!
Lets see Betty,is it 2 or 2 1/2 cups of gun powder? |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:28:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Hmmmmm. Let me see. Large brass cases, great big primers, lots of powder and 75mm projectiles. BTW, What state did you say you were shooting this in?
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:37:36 PM EDT
[#16]
hmmm, i have a friend with a 60mm morter. he had no problem with paperwork...just another dd...no biggee.
the biggest problem (no pun) with artillary is finding a place to light it up. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:48:00 PM EDT
[#17]
I stumbled across one of those cowboy shooting competitions at the range a few summers ago. Some of the guys there had black powder morters. They competed in trying to land solid iron balls near a stick on the longer range. it looked kinda neat but the dressing up like cowboys seemed a wee bit strange, especially when it was 90+ out.
I wish I'd asked about whether you need a license for one of those, they looked like a lot of fun. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 1:03:32 PM EDT
[#18]
there is a 75mm howitzer for sale, on gunsamerica...right now ( www.gunsamerica.com/search.cgi?complex=1&custom=&lowprice=0&highprice=99999999&age=0&uid=&words=destructive+device&state=All
it's no big deal...just pony up the $22k + transfer and she's all yours. i'm sure my neighbors would get a smile outta pulling the lanyard, if i could afford one. i'll take some pic's at the shoot next weekend...there should be a nice variety of privately owned cannons, howizters, rpg's, morters, flamethrowers and other assorted dd's being demo'd. last i checked, amerika was still a free country. even if you don't buy this gentleman's toy, you might try email to him for the ammo recipes? just an expensive hobby. don't be put off if ya want a cannon to play with. have fun a be careful! |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 1:12:52 PM EDT
[#19]
A WWII reenactment unit out of the Chicago area has a 75mm PAK 40. You might try to contact them as to reloading data. I know their gun is German and is 20X more powerfull than the U.S. gun you are talking about, but they might be able to help you.
If you cannot find them on the net, go to www.atthefront.com select Other links, then pick out the unit called 2nd Panzer. It's the chicago based one, the other 2nd panzer unit listed is based here in Akron, Ohio area and only uses 81mm mortars. I know it is a stretch, but they might be able to help with the powder charge. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 1:14:30 PM EDT
[#20]
The real question is Partition or A-Frame. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 3:52:02 PM EDT
[#21]
Seems to me cannons use a different kind of gun powder then smokeless? And extra LARGE primers!
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