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Posted: 7/17/2004 4:27:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Saiga magazine fed 12 guage has very little recoil. Currently only 5 round mags available, but 8 rounders sre made and sold in other countries and to LEO. Post september this will be a real bad boy with a folding stock.
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Posted: 7/17/2004 7:47:14 PM EDT
[#2]
If you plan to shoot trap, skeet, or any other clays game I would advise you to get a a gas operated autoloader, like the Beretta AL390, AL391, or perhaps the Browning Gold series. I have both the Beretta and the Browning, they are both nice autoloaders. I would advise a 28" barrel length.
You will need to get a model with a 'normal' hunting style stock, not a 'tactical' stock. People show up at the range periodically with 'tactical' short barreled shotguns thinking they can hit stuff  They usually get their clocks cleaned when they discover there is a world of difference between hitting stationary targets and moving ones......ECS
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Posted: 7/17/2004 11:24:31 PM EDT
[#3]
I don't know a ton about shotguns, but what makes a gas operated gun better than, say, the inertial (recoil) operated Benelli? I only ask becuase as a physics buff, I kinda like the Benelli system. BoB |
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Posted: 7/18/2004 7:52:51 AM EDT
[#4]
IMHO, the absolute best shooting and pointing shotgun available today is the Beretta Xtrema. I do know a lot about shotguns having been a competition shooter for years. I've owned Perazzi, Krieghoff and every other O/u and auto loader on the market.
The Xtrema is simply the softest shooting "Xtremely" reliable shotgun I've found. I've found that it is the perfect all around shotgun. The 3.5" chamber is fine for any hunting I may choose and it still works great for target shooting. I get some odd looks when I step into the box with a camo shotgun but when I smoke the targets I'm usually asked what I'm shooting. |
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Posted: 7/18/2004 6:28:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Nothing wrong with the Benelli recoil operated action. To me the gas guns are the softest shooting though. The Benelli is RECOIL operated so that means it needs RECOIL to make it work 
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Posted: 7/18/2004 7:34:52 PM EDT
[#6]
I'm able to double tap full velocity buckshot with my 1100 :)
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Posted: 7/18/2004 8:04:01 PM EDT
[#7]
I bought a saiga 12 gauge earlier this year and I can confirm recoil is minute. Mags are getting expensive but its a great shotgun.
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Posted: 8/19/2004 7:27:16 PM EDT
[#8]
*bump*
Just wondering if others have opinions. |
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Posted: 8/19/2004 7:47:00 PM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 8/19/2004 7:53:51 PM EDT
[#10]
I shoot a lot of rifles. What would the recoil of this compare to when loaded with regular olde 3" trap loads? BoB |
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Posted: 8/19/2004 8:26:53 PM EDT
[#11]
Yesterday I took my new Benelli Super Black Eagle to the sporting clays and shot 75 rounds of 2 3/4", 1300 FPS (3 3/4 dram equivalent?) Wincherster AA 1 1/8 oz. loads to practice for Dove season next week. This is the hottest load they have for Trap/Skeet/Sporting clays that I am aware of.
I also have a Browning Gold Hunter , Remington 1100, Winchester O/U. We also shot a .20 gauge short barrel single shot and a .410 pump. The Benelli did not seem to kick that much less than the Browning, or the Remington auto loaders. The O/U always kicks more, but competition shooters use less powerul 2 3/4 dram, or less loads and this isn't much of an issue. My shoulder was sore, but not as sore as I thougt it would be. The single shot .20 gauge kicked the most by far as it had not butt pad and weighed the least. The .410 was like shooting a .22 compared to all of them. I like the Benelli but I don't think the recoil is much less if any than the other gas operated shotguns. The recoil operated action is much cleaner and no crap blows in your face from the gas venting. It did cost $ 1275 dollars for the camo version in 28" with 5 chokes which is significantly more than the other available shotguns. The Benelli will also shoot everything from 3 dram 1 1/8 oz. loads up to the max load 3 1/2" loads with no changes in the field. |
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Posted: 8/19/2004 8:30:50 PM EDT
[#12]
But what are we talkin', here? .223, .243, .270, .308, .30-06? I'm just wondering the magnitude. The only 12ga that I've ever fired was an old single shot that put me on my ass when I was 12.
 BoB |
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Posted: 8/19/2004 9:12:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Hard to say , but its much less then my M1-S90 , I' guess I'd compare it to a Rem 1100 shooting field loads . |
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Posted: 8/19/2004 9:21:28 PM EDT
[#14]
12 gauge, 2.75" (1oz at 1180fps) 7.5 lb. gun weight 17.3 ft. lbs. recoil
12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/8 at 1200) 7.5 23.0 12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/4 at 1330) 7.5 32.0 12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/2 at 1260) 7.5 45.0 12 gauge, 3" (1 5/8 at 1280) 7.5 52.0 12 gauge, 3" (1 7/8 at 1210) 8.75 54.0 10 gauge, 3.5" (2 1/4 at 1210) 10.5 62.9 .300 WSM (180 grain, MV 2950 fps), 6.5 lb. rifle = 30.8 ft. lbs. .300 WSM (180 grain, MV 2950 fps), 8.5 lb. rifle = 23.6 ft. lbs. Information from www.chuckhawks.com As you can see the 12 ga. recoil ranges from 17.3 ft.lbs. recoil up to 62.9 ft. lbs. of recoil, ouch. The average 12 ga. load is probably near the 23 ft. lbs. range which is equivalent to a 180 grain bullet fired at 2950 fps from an 8.5 lb. rifle. This would be more than the standard .30 06 180 grain 2650 fps and more like the .30 06 Hornady Light Magnum load at 2820 fps. All of these calculated values depend upon the weight of the firearm with heavier translating to less recoil. 12 gauge trap or skeet loads of 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 dram are not bad from any autoloading shotgun due to the weight of the gun. When you go up to the 3" and 3 1/2" loads for hunting you are out of the league of all but the heaviest rifles. Hunting this does not bother me, but I wouldn't want to shoot 50 rounds of 3 1/2" turkey, or goose loads in a week. |
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Posted: 8/19/2004 9:29:35 PM EDT
[#15]
So if they use an x lb spring, would felt recoil on an autloader be (recoil - x)?
BoB |
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Posted: 8/19/2004 9:36:33 PM EDT
[#16]
No, it isn't that simple. The spring is only part of the equation required to calculate the recoil and it is set to cycle with different loads.
The .12 gauge isn't that bad. On the sporting clays course you can shoot either 50, 100, or 150 targets per round and some people shoot multiple rounds. You just normally don't go out and burn up that many .30 06 rounds in a short time. Get a good recoil pad on the gun you choose as that seems to help the most. |
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Posted: 8/20/2004 7:14:43 PM EDT
[#17]
12 Guage TARGET loads are mild compared to full house buckshoot and/or slugs. I would put the recoil somewhere between the .223 and .308. Definately less than .308. Over/unders, side by sides, and pumps have more recoil than the autoloaders because the moving parts in the autoloaders store energy and then release it. All this motion spreads out the recoil time so its not so sharp and pronounced. |
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Posted: 8/21/2004 12:54:30 PM EDT
[#18]
B-O, You did not give a price range. Remington 1100 would be in the 450 to 650 range and the Beretta's would be in the 600 to 1500 range depending on model. Recoil operated guns are great for hunting and self defense but gas guns are better for targets. MIKE.
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Posted: 8/21/2004 1:11:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Serious question: What is the basis for that statement? Several people have made it and it doesn't make a ton of sense to me. BTW, I'd spend up to $1500 to get reliable comfort. BoB |
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Posted: 8/21/2004 3:24:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Bob, You don't understand this price question or the difference between recoil operated and gas operated guns.? MIKE.
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Posted: 8/21/2004 3:50:00 PM EDT
[#21]
Price makes sense. I understand how they work, but I don't understand the gas operated gun being better/worse for a particular activity than a recoil operated. Thanks, BoB |
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Posted: 8/21/2004 4:05:17 PM EDT
[#22]
From Chuckhawks.com
The autoloader Long recoil operated, short recoil operated, and gas operated autoloading actions were all devised by John Browning, and the firm that bears his name has made all three types. The most famous long recoil action is the Browning Auto-5. This same design has been produced by Remington (as the famous Model 11), Savage, and others. All of these guns can be easily recognized by the familiar "square back" receiver. A long recoil action uses the force of recoil to achieve the seven steps of operation. It requires the barrel and bolt (locked together) to travel rearward for a distance somewhat greater than the full length of the fired cartridge before coming to a stop, so that the fired shell may be extracted and ejected. Then the barrel unlocks from the bolt and returns to battery, followed a little later by the bolt, which strips a fresh shell from the magazine and chambers it as it returns to battery. Springs, compressed on the rearward movement, power the return to battery of the barrel and bolt. The jolt caused by the heavy barrel/bolt assembly reaching the end of its rearward travel immediately after the recoil caused by the firing of the cartridge gives the long recoil gun a peculiar "double shuffle" kick, which some shooters find disconcerting. The short recoil shotgun also uses recoil energy for power, but the barrel and bolt are only locked together for a short distance, usually less than 1/2 inch. Then the two are separated, and the barrel returned to battery by a spring while the bolt continues rearward to eject the fired case. At the end of its travel, the bolt is forced forward (by another spring), and it strips a fresh round from the magazine and chambers it as it returns to battery. The Browning Double Automatic was an interesting example of a short recoil operated shotgun. Most autoloading pistols also operate on the short recoil principle, and this is where the system has found its most common application. The gas operated autoloading shotgun uses the power of the expanding gas from the power charge to operate the action. It works in a similar manner to the gas operated autoloading rifle, so for a more detailed description of this action I will simply refer you to my article The Autoloading Action in the "Rifle Information" section of my Guns & Shooting Page. Probably the best-known gas operated shotgun ever made, and typical of the type, is the Remington Model 1100. This benchmark design has influenced the great majority of subsequent autoloaders. It has proven to be a reliable gun that significantly reduces perceived recoil. As I write this in 2002, the 1100 is still in production. Also from Remington is the similar 11-87. Today, gas operated autoloaders are offered by most manufacturers of repeating shotguns. Autoloaders are very popular for the various clay target sports, and also for hunting. They offer reduced perceived recoil (about 30%, due to the energy absorbed in operating their action) and a quick, almost effortless, second or third shot. This reduced recoil is particularly advantageous for trap and skeet shooters, who may shoot hundreds of rounds a day. It is also pretty important to the waterfowl hunter shooting magnum loads. Autoloaders are a little more expensive than an equivalent pump gun, but much cheaper to manufacture and sell than a decent double gun. The shooter wishing to increase the versatility of his or her autoloader can purchase a second barrel of different configuration at a reasonable price. Barrels can usually be interchanged in minutes without tools. Today, at least in North America, autoloaders are probably the best selling type of shotgun. An autoloader may be somewhat less reliable than a manually operated action, particularly in very cold weather, or if it is not kept clean. Modern gas operated designs have minimized, although not entirely overcome, this problem. The primary disadvantage of the autoloading shotgun relates to the length of the receiver necessary to contain its action. This long receiver between the barrel and butt stock makes an autoloader about 4" longer than a break action gun with the same length barrel. Autos tend to be muzzle heavy and slow to swing with a barrel longer than 26" in length. This is a disadvantage shared with the pump gun (see below). Some shooters find the automatic operation of the action between shots distracting, especially when shooting clay target doubles. Some autos tend to be fussy about ammunition; they will often fail to eject light loads, and sometimes fail to feed heavy loads. Reloaders dislike the fact that autos throw the fired shell on the ground. Some autoloaders also tend to be sensitive to reloads, and will only operate with reloaded shells previously fired in their chamber. This can be a pain in the neck for the reloader that owns more than one shotgun. Most experienced shooters consider autoloaders the most dangerous type of shotgun in the hands of a careless or ignorant shooter. Because, after the first shot, it is ready to shoot again with no action required by the shooter beyond pulling the trigger. This is, of course, also true for a double gun with a single trigger. Safety is really an operator problem, as the autoloader is as safe as any other repeater when used correctly. Careless individuals are dangerous to themselves and others with any sort of gun, and also around motor vehicles, boats, aircraft, power tools, matches, propane stoves and lanterns, machinery of all kinds, and electricity. They should be studiously avoided. |
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Posted: 8/21/2004 4:19:06 PM EDT
[#23]
Bob, The short answer is that the gas autoloader uses some of the gas from the shot to work the action and giving the shooter less perceived recoil. The recoil operated gun uses your shoulder as a fixed object to operate the gun. If the recoil operated gun was fired without a backstop it would not load the next shell.
Gas gun are more plesant to shoot so that is why they are used for targets. They are less reliable if not kept clean. Recoil operated guns are more dependable because thay are not as dirty and not as fussy with the different loads used. But they kick hard! MIKE. |
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Posted: 8/21/2004 4:30:40 PM EDT
[#24]
The Beretta 391 is absolutely the lightest I have felt. It just seems so smooth....
I am partial to my Remington 1187's but the Beretta is way low on the recoil side. |
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Posted: 8/21/2004 6:36:40 PM EDT
[#25]
The gas guns have less recoil. Recoil eventually causes flinching which leads to lost targets. So any reduction in recoil is a good thing. You may not think you have any flinching until your gun jams and you practically fall off the shooting station. Some people are not recoil sensitive but many are including myself. Shoot a couple hundred targets in a day and you will start to notice the recoil even with target loads. Hunting is different. You don't typically shoot 10 boxes of shells in one day so if the recoil is higher you can tolerate it. |
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Posted: 8/22/2004 5:27:52 AM EDT
[#26]
I am a fan of the 1100 when it comes to autos - and the 870 for a pumpgun... I have a friend who does alot of shotgunning - whose input I respect, and he really likes his Winchester SuperX2 - and he's shot 'em all at one time or another...
-georgestrings |
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Posted: 8/22/2004 8:28:44 AM EDT
[#27]
So this whole topic was prompted by a review of the SBEII in American Rifleman. They claim a 35% reduction in felt recoil. Does this allow the recoil operated Benelli to surpass a gas operated gun? BoB |
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Posted: 8/22/2004 9:54:41 AM EDT
[#28]
B, 35% reduction for the original Benelli, not less than a gas gun. If you plan to shoot skeet, trap or sporting clays you need a gas gun. If the gun is for hunting or self defense take your pick. Me I picked gas guns for target and bird hunting. For big game with the shotgun or defense I am using a pump. MIKE.
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Posted: 8/22/2004 10:02:16 AM EDT
[#29]
Benelli M1014. Despite all other Benellis being recoil operated the M1014 is GAS operated and recoil is very managable. The M1014 has two large gas pistons under the handguards that are removeable for cleaning and the shotgun will cycle even the very light dove/quail loads.
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Posted: 8/22/2004 8:20:25 PM EDT
[#30]
Can anyone find any statistical data on the recoil reduction of a gas operating system vs. a recoil operated system?
My shoulder can't tell much difference, but the Benelli SBEII does not kick appreciably harder than either of my gas operated shotguns. |
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Posted: 8/23/2004 5:18:59 AM EDT
[#31]
BB, I will search around for some numbers this afternoon. I can tell you this, I have a good friend who has several recoil operated guns in all guages that he uses for birds. When I got him to shoot skeet he switched to gas fast because of the recoil. Again hunting or defense they are fine but for shooting hundreds of shells over and over again gas is best. MIKE.
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Posted: 8/23/2004 6:12:13 PM EDT
[#32]
BB, From CHUCKHAWKS.com Not what you were looking for but interesting just the same. MIKE.
Shotgun Recoil Table By Chuck Hawks The following are taken from various sources including the recoil nomograph in the Handloader's Digest 8th Edition, the online recoil calculator at Big Game Info (http://www.biggameinfo.com/RecoilCalc.asp), or calculated from the formula given in the Lyman Reloading Handbook, 43rd Edition. The formula is: E = 1/2 (Wr / 32) (Wb x MV + 4700 x Wp / 7000 x Wr)squared Where E = recoil Energy in ft. lbs., Wr = Weight of gun in pounds, Wb = Weight of shot+wad in grains, MV = Muzzle Velocity of shot in feet-per-second, Wp = Weight of powder in grains. For an expanded version of this table showing more loads, see the "Expanded Shotgun Recoil Table" on the Tables, Charts and Lists Page. Gauge, length (oz. shot@MV) Gun weight (lbs.) Recoil energy (ft. lbs.) .410 bore, 2.5" (1/2 at 1200) 5.5 7.1 .410 bore, 3" (11/16 at 1135) 5.5 10.5 28 gauge, 2.75" (3/4 at 1200) 6.0 12.8 20 gauge, 2.75" (7/8 at 1200) 6.5 16.1 20 gauge, 2.75" (1 at 1220) 6.5 21.0 20 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/8 at 1175) 6.5 25.0 20 gauge, 3" (1 1/4 at 1185) 6.5 31.0 16 gauge, 2.75" (1 at 1220) 7.0 21.5 16 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/8 at 1240) 7.0 27.6 12 gauge, 2.75" (1 at 1180) 7.5 17.3 12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/8 at 1200) 7.5 23.0 12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/4 at 1330) 7.5 32.0 12 gauge, 2.75" (1 1/2 at 1260) 7.5 45.0 12 gauge, 3" (1 5/8 at 1280) 7.5 52.0 12 gauge, 3" (1 7/8 at 1210) 8.75 54.0 10 gauge, 3.5" (2 1/4 at 1210) 10.5 62.9 Boy does that 10 gauge kick! MIKE. |
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Posted: 8/28/2004 4:03:56 AM EDT
[#33]
I was looking at a new Benelli, but after this i think I will go with a Beretta 391. Great info thanks guys
 I almost exclusively use o/u Browning for skeet (I hate too pick up hulls since I reload)and was looking for a light recoil auto in 20 ga. to start my daughter on.
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Posted: 8/28/2004 4:59:28 AM EDT
[#34]
In general shotguns recoil according to the following list from most to least given the same shells are used:
Over-under/side-by-side pump recoil operated gas operated I used to own a Benelli M3 which was an awesome shotgun and was fast as shit. However, being recoil operated it kicked like a mule and was ammo sensitive. Recoil operated guns tend to be more ammo sensitive than the gas guns. You need a shell that kicks pretty good to get them to function reliably. This is part of the reason that you hear more stories about recoil guns kicking more; because they have to in order to function. Personally I'd go with an 110 or 11-87 and be done with it. That way you don't have too much invested into a game you may not wind up enjoying that much. |
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Posted: 8/29/2004 10:11:54 AM EDT
[#35]
What you need to do is get out to a range and get some trigger time on each model, not depend on a bunch of message bouard posters to describe the feeling to you. There's only so much of the experience you can convey with words. Just do it.
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