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Posted: 9/16/2005 9:39:50 AM EDT
[#1]
Glock is your answer. 9mm is the only caliber you can get factory/Military waterproof ammo in.
Although I'm no fan of 9mm, I keep one handgun in this caliber for the waterproof ammo reason. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 10:12:33 AM EDT
[#2]
If you like the Glock except the grip angle, look at the HK USP. IMHO it's actually more reliable, but that sort of think is tough to quantify.
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Posted: 9/16/2005 10:20:57 AM EDT
[#3]
I am not a real brand-centric person, if you buy a good gun it will work. Sig, Glock, H&K....there are a few others too. Pick what you shoot well, that is name brand. I personally prefer the Sig 226 as a do-it-all gun because 15 rounds of 9mm +p is a decent handful of firepower. Add a handful of mags and it is quite capable. I like it because it works well for me as far as handling characteristics go and is DAMN reliable.
However, I also LOVE wheel guns, my GP100 is the most accurate gun I shoot, and a cylinder full of 125grain JHPs loaded to magnum pressure is not getting outgunned by much, except if engaging multiple targets. AND, a good 1911 is never far away, because I like the .45 round better than 9mm. That said, I would pick a good gun, train withit until you are confident in both yourself and the gun, and be happy. shooter |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 10:42:29 AM EDT
[#4]
You could look into one of the XDs with a stainless slide if you like the Glock but not the angle. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 11:50:52 AM EDT
[#5]
I like the Glock kinda, but the fact that I shoot it poorly bothers me. How does the XD seem to be as far as toughness goes? Is it in the same league as the H&K, Sig etc?
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Posted: 9/16/2005 12:01:54 PM EDT
[#6]
Where does one get this? Can someone provide an example? |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 12:37:22 PM EDT
[#7]
After watching that sand test i'd tend to disagree. Learn to shoot your glock any you'll realize what a superior platform it really is. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 2:43:31 PM EDT
[#8]
The Glock will never conform to your hand, but if you practice enough with it, your hand will eventually conform to the Glock!
 There is always the option of a grip reduction for your Glock also, which might make it fit you better. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 3:03:00 PM EDT
[#9]
I carry a Glock at work everyday...It is relaible, and simple.....Point and shoot, what is not to like. I am not a fan of the 9mm though....I say .40 or .45
Sean |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 3:21:41 PM EDT
[#10]
no real difference between all the major calibers.
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Posted: 9/16/2005 3:31:09 PM EDT
[#11]
You must not have seen bigbores Glock torture test post yet. 
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Posted: 9/16/2005 3:31:54 PM EDT
[#12]
The Glock is extremely reliable. Like an AK, it has such generous clearance that will eat up sand/mud/water. The 9mm can even be fired underwater with ball ammo if you install the optional "underwater striker cups".
As for the grip angle, do you prefer a 1911-like angle ? If so, you are the same as me - I do most oif my shooting with a double-stack 1911 IPSC match gun, yet I still carry a Glock for CCW. I chose a G27 with extended mag basepad... by happy coincidence, it points exactly the same as my 1911 w/flat MSH:   This works for me because the heel of my palm hangs off the bottom of the G27's grip. If you are lucky, you will find the same thing in your hand. As for capacity, its easy to use full-size mags if you really need more than 10 rounds. I also have a G22, and I got it to point like my G27 and 1911 by brute force: I filled the backstrap with Bondo then Dremelled it to shape. I will try to post a photo here later. Its not pretty, but it feels wonderful and works great. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 3:55:15 PM EDT
[#13]
And you must not have seen Larry Vicker's test...Where the USP beat the living daylights out of a G21 and a USGI style 1911. One test doesn't mean shit. Any firearm will jam if crap is in the right spot, Glock or HK. Good news is, between those two, you've quite possibly got the two most hard-to-jam designs. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 3:57:32 PM EDT
[#14]
bigbore put 4 different models of glock pistols through the sand test, slides open and closed. None of them repeated the results of larry vickers test. Good tests are repeatable.
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Posted: 9/16/2005 4:05:50 PM EDT
[#15]
So then how can you detirmine whos test was better if they've only been done once. There are too many variables involved in BOTH for either of them to be 100% repeatable.
Didnt bigbore test a USP compact anyways? Hell of alot less room in one of those than a full size... |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 4:13:32 PM EDT
[#16]
Yeah, I like the more 1911 style grip. I would like to see a pic of your G22. I thought of making a filler for the backstrap behind the trigger area. I have a buddy that is an expert in composits. He said it would be a simple to do. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 4:38:59 PM EDT
[#17]
IIRC he tested a full size USP in .45. I own both and both are excellent handguns, but while I like some things about the USP, I would take the G21 any day for balls to the walls reliability...but that's just me. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 6:15:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Photos of my G22 as promised:     As you can see, the finish is pretty crude. I performed the mod by first using a Dremel with a high-speed cutter like this:  ... to cut the offending original grip material from the "mainspring housing" area of the grip. Next, I removed the trigger assembly from inside the "beavertail" area and inserted plasticine in its place to stop the Bondo from getting in this area. Then, I filled the exposed open space in the grip (where I had made the cuts) with a Bondo-like substance (don't remember the brand - JB Weld, maybe ?). Once it was hardened, I hand filed to a shape I liked. As you can see, I place low value on aesthetics in my guns - I left the bubbles in the Bondo, and colored it to match the grip using a Sharpie marker (which, as you can see, is wearing off). If appearance is important to you, you could use a jewelers file to checker the Bondo before applying a painted finish. The result, while butt ugly, allows my G22 to point the same as my G27 and 1911:  If you want to try this, go slowly with the Dremel. Any questions, send me an IM. Good luck. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 6:49:13 PM EDT
[#19]
Glock is most reliable, best bang for the buck, period. HK and Sig are BOTH overpriced for what you get. For the price of a Sig you can get a Glock, 4 extra mags (for a total of six) and at least half a case of good quality ammo!
I started a thread like this some time back, but I stated my position in a different way; a way that got me chided because someone here thought that I was making light of the situation on the Gulf Coast. I was not; that reader was just way too sensitive; what I way trying to get across is that a SHTF situation like what happened down there could happen anywhere, in any number of ways...be prepared! What would you rather have...a Glock that functions in any conditions or a Sig that get submerged and rusts shut after day two? How about that $2500 Ed Brown 1911 that is also now rusted shut and has always been picky about what it's fed? I will take a Glock any day, because it has been proven by thousands of people in thousands of situations around the world that when you pull the trigger, it will go bang - reliability is the one characteristic of the Glock that even the most hard-core "tupperware" hater will concede it has going for it! I am referring only to Glocks chambered in 9mm - YMMV with other calibers... |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 7:07:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Not to gore anyone's personal ox here, but my go-to gun is an EAA Witness 40 that has fed every bullet profile I could find to run thru it, with 100% reliability. The external-rail design is good at keeping dirt and grit out of the innards, and it hits harder than any 9mm, period. I was a 45 ACP guy until mine blew a shell out over the feed ramp and took an hour to get perking again, and the Witness, despite its price, has been totally dependable under all conditions, with any and all ammo tried, 30K rounds worth. I'm a revolver guy at heart, but I like the combination of reliability and firepower I get with 12+1 on tap, in a ballistically adequate round. Just my .02 worth.
Papajohn |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 7:23:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Found a picture of the Glock 17 "Maritime Spring Cups":
 These parts allow the Glock 17 to function reliably even underwater or after immersion. Note: SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS ARE REQUIRED TO SHOOT UNDERWATER (only subsonic ball ammo, remove all air, wear hearing protection etc.). Do your homework on this before aquabumping  .
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Posted: 9/16/2005 7:28:33 PM EDT
[#22]
I did some shooting with a Glock 19 and the grip angle is all wrong for me. I tried several and picked up a Smith & Wesson 40VE with a SS slide and grip is very ergonomicly correct with an 18 degree grip angle (just like a 1911) and good thumb and finger support. Some HK and XDs work OK for me also.
This (40VE) would be a very good wet weather gun and priced right and 14 or 15 rounds of 40S&W to boot! Give them a look... 
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Posted: 9/16/2005 11:04:31 PM EDT
[#23]
For SHTF, "Big Easy" style I'd want a long gun and lots of ammo. It would be preferable to find a tall building and wait it out in the shade. I have a Witness in 10mm with 5-15 round mags for it, but if I were to go the 9mm route I'd get a G17, ammo by the case, and stock up on 33 round mags to fend off the hordes of greed and hate induced bad guys.
Ultimately: one or two guns, LOTS of ammo, but mostly a place to go with food and potable water that can be defended if needed. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 1:46:45 AM EDT
[#24]
G21
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Posted: 9/17/2005 2:06:51 AM EDT
[#25]
I'll take my tried and true SA Govt model every time. It'll dry out just fine. It's the most reliable firearm I've ever owned and reliability is my first and foremost concern. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 3:07:11 AM EDT
[#26]
It still be my standard carry gun - M1911A1, just might have to change holsters. If I ever deploy inside the US then it will be my duty gun of either M1911A1 or M9.
Ctg. Ball M1911 cal .45 can still be had if you look. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 4:46:03 AM EDT
[#27]
My preference as well. A P228 is a bit smaller that may tip the scales if you want to go concealed with it. But the points about reliability + firepower are correct. I've got two XD9s that I prefer over the Glock that I had. The grip angle was designed to be the same as the 1911 so no grinding is required to get it to fit. wganz ¶ |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 5:40:18 AM EDT
[#28]
Q4318 and/or RA9124N from WIN. If I remember correctly Q4318 was approching impossible to find due to low demand. I got my last 500 rounds from a Law Enforcement supply joint. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 7:41:11 AM EDT
[#29]
Bigbore tested each pistol multiple times. The first time the USP got through the mag, the remaining times it siezed. Also, what model of USP is just making excuses. He tested every size glock form fullsize to subcompact. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 7:58:24 AM EDT
[#30]
IIRC some of the glocks had issues there too. Good info, especially if you get caught up in a bucket of sand and rotated back and forth! I had that happen last week, too much beer  Edited: not to start the inevitable shitstorm but www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html My G22 failed as well (early 1992) It may be corrected but there's still plenty out there.
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Posted: 9/17/2005 8:07:13 AM EDT
[#31]
none of the glocks siezed. During 1 test he had to tap-rack his 21 to get back into the fight which takes esentially no time for a skilled shooter. The HK was siezed, it was an expensive club.
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Posted: 9/17/2005 9:17:47 AM EDT
[#32]
"Any firearm will jam if crap is in the right spot" Correct, but just from Bigbore's test, who I assume not to be biased in any way. The glock out performed the HK design time and again. I have not seen any Larry Vickers test. Besides I thought Bigbores test to be very informative of the abuse various pistols could take, I wouldn't say it "didn't mean shit". |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 9:32:17 AM EDT
[#33]
Nor do I. But there have been plenty other tests out there by plenty other people who showed different results. I just don't understand how people can take one test and have it be the word of god. Glock owners are VERY quick to reference Big-Bore's test. Which is fantastic. What you don't see is USP Tac owners throwing the Vicker's test in Glock owners faces every time the opportunity arises, a test in which the Glock came dead last, beat out by a springfield GI1911 and a USP tactical. Simply because the conditions were right, and the glock jammed. Vickers may have introduced sand to the Glock in a way that Bigbore did not, causing it to jam faster. OH WELL. No way to get anything 100% consistent. Sometimes the USP will win, sometimes the Glock will win. Sometimes a 1911 may win. Sometimes an M9 may win. You just never know. I know of a few friends who own USP's who have jammed. None of mine have. And yes, there is a difference between the compact and fullsize guns. One has a hell of alot more area for sand to move around in, the other does not. I would imagine a G17 would be more reliable than a 26 in the sand...but I may be wrong. I know a few people who have had Glocks jam, and some that have been 100% trouble free. People bash the beretta 92, yet its the pistol I have had more dirt, mud, and grit in, and still managed to fire 1000+ rounds with all of the above on/in it. I've seen AK series weapons jam. They all do it under the right circumstances. Bottom line is, if we ever get attacked by buckets of sand that rip our sidearms away from us, shake them around inside for a while, then give them back to us to shoot at them, we're all screwed because ever gun failed. And if Larry Vickers comes around throwing sand in our guns, we're still all screwed, because eventually, all of them failed too. I'll gladly take my USP tactical, and you can take your Glock 21, and I am sure both of us will do just fine in almost any SHTF situation. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 9:48:20 AM EDT
[#34]
I guess I'm just a research nazi. I've taken way too many courses in research design and statistics to know that there were way too many variables in both the Vickers test and Bigbores test to allow either one of them to be the be all end all test between Glock and HK. Hell, Glock came out on top in one, HK in the other. That is fine. I have no problem with that. I highly doubt the Vickers test was biased either. Neither of them were. But neither of them were perfect, and it makes me chuckle most anytime someone brings them up to dictate which pistol is more reliable than the other. Hell, I'll admit, I've done it once or twice, but I've also learned its a poor way to make a point. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 10:44:38 AM EDT
[#35]
That's cool. I have yet to see a Sig P226 test. I think it would do very well in an abuse test. I have ran mine (9mm) for a few years now. It will eat up any ammo put through it and will work dry and dirty. I think a Sig, HK, or Glock would be an excellent SHTF pistol. |
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Posted: 9/17/2005 10:51:39 AM EDT
[#36]
GLOCK 21!!!
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Posted: 9/17/2005 11:51:42 AM EDT
[#37]
Id still have my 1911, in a shoulder rig. I think my first thing to do before the hurricane hit wouldve been to get a rubber raft from walmart and cut a piece of plywood to fit the floor (used one of these with my Dad fishing bass ponds for over 10 years, used a trolling motor.) Even if I didnt live in an area that was flooded I could use it to go into those areas and help look for people and shoot looters and criminals up to no good. A set of NVGs would be great also, with no electricity at night you wouldnt have the problem of getting washed out by streetlights and you could probably do a lot to stop looters who were doing home invasions on defenseless people. The 1911 and my M1A would be all I would need, and a portable water filter.
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Posted: 9/18/2005 10:14:43 AM EDT
[#38]
+1 for the XD
BTW I also live in MI. and I don't really think there will be a class five anything here anytime soon. If the national guard people saw you with a thigh holster in knee deep water, I am thinking waterproof would be the least of your concerns. So all the swimming and shooting crap or ass deep in mud is just that, crap. Way to much cable TV. Good luck anyway. |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 10:39:58 AM EDT
[#39]
The XDs Achillies heel seems to be it's finish. with about a third of the owners responding to a poll on the subject reporting problems with rust on the slide. However, Springfield will put this right under warrenty. Otherwise, the XDs appear to be as tough as nails. i have several thousand rounds through mine with no problems at all. Handguns Magazine published an XD torture test in the Jun / Jul '05. They put 20,000 rounds through it, froze it, buried it in mud, ran it over with a truck, yadd yadda and it just kept working. I had the same problem you describe with a Glock. Found that I shoot an XD much, much better. |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 12:27:45 PM EDT
[#40]
p.10 of the torture test. It was a USP compact.
R |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 12:32:27 PM EDT
[#41]
My choices would be durable and reliable 9mm and .45 semi-autos.
I avoid oddball calibers that can be purchased in quanitity or locally scrounged. |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 12:49:45 PM EDT
[#42]
So you're saying you wouldn't use a TiN Jericho in .41 AE then?  Rich |
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Posted: 9/18/2005 1:02:56 PM EDT
[#43]
sig or beretta. I've had taurus, glock and hk fail on me. I fired an HK at a shoot I went to and it FTEd.....
glock I've had several FTEs with. taurus well that's self-explanatory so I wont comment on it. sig or beretta man. they're the ones you want. preferably a sig 226 with forged slide. |
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Posted: 9/22/2005 5:22:02 AM EDT
[#44]
I would + a XD or HK if you cant find a Glock that feels good to you. If you want Glock reliability you might consider a revolver... S&W, Colt or Ruger. Smith and Ruger make 9mm moon clip wheel guns.
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Posted: 9/22/2005 7:21:10 AM EDT
[#45]
Do you have a link to the Vicker's test? I can't find anything on it. |
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Posted: 9/22/2005 9:12:38 AM EDT
[#46]
I will try...if nothing else, it was plastered all over 1911forum.com
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Posted: 9/22/2005 10:05:12 AM EDT
[#47]
In a SHTF scenario a 9mm Beretta or Glock is going to be your best choice. Berettas are issued to the military so there are going to be plenty of parts available and Glocks are issued to LE so there will be a bunch of Glock parts available too. With that said, you should focus more on what kind of rifle you would want rather than a pistol.
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Posted: 9/22/2005 12:22:21 PM EDT
[#48]
My SHTF weapon (S)? Glock 21 with its sidekick, the Glock 30 w/ about 200 rds of ammo right now. Then there is my DPMS Panther Carbine (11.5" bbl w/5.5" FH) with a whole bunch of goodies on it and the second DPMS (AP4 Panther Carbine w/ goodies) on its way soon. What can I say, I like to be prepared. 5.56 ammo - 1000 rds as of now.
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Posted: 9/22/2005 2:14:54 PM EDT
[#49]
I hated the grip angle on a glock, the SIG was much better suited to me.
I have a P228, love it. |
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Posted: 9/22/2005 4:18:53 PM EDT
[#50]
USP .45
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