Hi folks,

Now before you jump in and tell me just to give up and get her a 9mm, hear me out as to why I'm so set on her shooting a .45. My main reasons are:

1. I already carry a 45 (Glock 21 Gen 4), handload for it so we have huge quantities of cheap practice ammo, and I really am big on standardizing around as few calibers as possible. Further, I have a good few hundred rounds of Gold Dot 230gr LE ammo I got on sale saved up, so we wouldn't hurt for top-quality defensive ammo.

2. She has shot my Glock 21 side by side with a Glock 19, and while she liked the grip size of the 19 way better, her only comment on the recoil difference was that the 19 felt "snappier." She shot them both fine, with a little better accuracy and speed from the 21.

3. I've had her try on many different pistols, and being a very slight an girly Chinese woman, she adores the XDS 4.0 above all else. Given that the two calibers of that pistol are EXACTLY the same size, and the XDS in 9mm only has 2 more rounds of capacity than the 45, in her chosen gun there is not much ammo capacity advantage and no size advantage to the 9mm.

4. One of the biggest reasons I picked the 45 over the 9mm or 357 SIG for myself is the extremely low operating pressure of the 45. This means more parts life and a longer useful life of the weapon in survival situations.

5. Ballistically, there's more "room for error" with the 45 than the 9mm. Now, while I prefer the 45 partly because it is one of the, if not the, best manstopper pistol round, I'm not one of those "there is no caliber but the 45, and John Browning is His Prophet" guys. I recognize that with a +p or +p+ 124gr Gold Dot, HST, or Golden Saber, the 9mm is extremely efficient at stopping an assailant quickly with a minimum of hits. However, with standard pressure anmo, especially in 115gr, it becomes more iffy in effectiveness. My wife and I, having been competitive athletes in our high school and college days, are HUGE believers in the doctrine of "practice how you perform." That is why I have as my defensive/hunting/SHTF loads in 7.62 NATO and 5.56 150gr SST and 55gr soft-point; so standard ball practice anmo shoots to the same point of aim, has the exact same bullet weight and velocity as the performance rounds so I'm perfectly used to them if ever need them for real. As far as I know nobody makes +p 124gr FMJ practice anmo, and shooting some after firing 115gr standard pressure ball rounds, my wife could tell a very big difference I recoil. She also shot slower and considerably less accurately with that stuff. It seems ludicrous to me that people will spend lots of money and put thousands of rounds down-range practicing with their 9mms using standard pressure anmo, and then turn around and load their magazines for defensive carry with a round with higher pressure and a heavier bullet. In the middle of a defensive shooting seems to me to be about the worst time imaginable to be trying to get used to new and unfamiliar recoil characteristics. If she carries the 45, on the other hand, she'd practice with standard pressure 230gr FMJ, and carry standard-pressure 230gr gold dots, guaranteeing she'd be perfectly accustomed to the recoil and point of impact of the round she's carrying from practicing with same-weight and velocity FMJs. Furthermore, the room for error goes way up with ball ammo. If one cannot find premium hollow points for the 45, the FMJ is still a pretty solid man-stopper (60-70% one-shot rating), while he 9mm drops way the hell off with ball rounds (down to 25-40%).

6. Having to put fewer rounds on an assailant is much better from a legal standpoint. Although it is a travesty that this consideration must enter into the equation at all, as a DC lawyer (we live on the free side of the iron curtain in Virginia, we cross under it every day to go to work), I know that investigating officers, a jury, and prosecutor is much more likely to condone 2-3 rounds into a bad guy than 6-10. In that way, having the higher capacity of the 9mm and the probable need of firing more to effect a stop can be a liability.


I really look forward to hearing what y'all think of my reasoning, and of other things I might be missing.

wow that's a lot of words.

My wife only shoots .22lr.  She has shot my Glocks before for the sole purpose of knowing how to use them.

I don't see any of the points in convincing her to shoot something else.

9mm should arguably be in your SHTF collection.
Room for error is in the hundredths of inches.
Less recoil makes a girl happier, they are not men.
I doubt she is going to out shoot the parts on whatever gun she picks.
Legal wise, who cares, alive is better.

You're way overthinking this...

Most important aspect of a carry gun is the carrier being comfortable with it and being able to hit what they want (as long as it shooting effective ammo). There is plenty of effective ammo for 9mm. So if that is what she likes to carry then leave it be. In general, when you are the target of a street crime, the sight of the gun is enough to send the badguys fleeing with possibly one or two shots being fired by the parties. And generally speaking, the thugs that are shooting at you are doing it while running away and without aiming... Teaching her to move, cover and point shoot would probably be much more fruitful than forcing her into a new caliber.

She should carry, and shoot, whatever she's most comfortable with - period.

Just let her carry what she likes best.

Lower parts wear in survival situations? You're dumping 20,000 rounds through your pistol in a survival situation?

I would tread carefully trying to tell someone else what to carry.. even the wife. Well, especially the wife.

9mm's give up nothing for self defense, so let her shoot a bunch of different ones in both 9mm and 45 and let her pick.

Council her on why "you" think one is better over another, but don't make up stuff in an effort to convince her to go your way. Let her choose the one she is most comfortable with and the one she will enjoy training with the most.

Then encourage her to enroll in some local Tactical Training classes. Near me, there are some that are "women only" which makes for a really good environment without macho men running around telling them what to do (except for the instructor who knows how to handle women with guns).

My own wife had a great time going through such a class and got to know a lot of the things women should know when it really is time to get "tactical" on an attacking perp.

I can't find one reason in that mess of words that is valid for your wife to carry a 45.  Most of your reasons involve price, why would you let price determine your choice for self defense?  She should carry what she feels comfortable with, and can reliably put rounds on target with.  

Less hits from a 45 than a 9 to put someone down? A well placed shot from either is game over.  With the vast majority of rounds ending up in the dirt why not have the extra capacity?


It sounds to me like you just love 45 and wish your wife did too.

Let her carry a 9mm

I'm intrigued by your appraisal of the 9mm's stopping power. I know that the +p and +p+ are excellent manstoppers, but I've been led to believe that the 45 doesn't need to "reach" and stretch to its absolute upper limit of performance to be effective like the 9mm. However, are you saying that standard-pressure 115gr or 124gr 9mm hollow points really effective manstoppers? If so, how do you come to that conclusion and on what evidence do you base it?

 

You are exactly right that I do indeed love the 45, but I feel I have some very good reasons why.

 

You lost your credibility right there.

In pretty much any handgun caliber, unless you hit central nervous system, the only "stopping" effects are pain and blood loss.

.45 is a better stopper than 9mm WHEN YOU ARE LIMITED TO FMJ because it pokes a bigger hole.

With modern hollow points, in a defensive situation, it's not worth the loss in capacity over 9mm.

Buy some HST 147gr +P if your chosen gun will run it and call it a day.  That's what I carry in my M&P with 18 rounds.

Or I could carry my MP45, which is basically the same size and holds 7 less rounds.

Stopping power, from a pistol round? Are you serious? Let the woman carry what she wants and be pleased that she's responsible for her own defense.

Dude, if Momma wants a 9mm then Momma gets a 9mm.

EVERY time she holsters/unholsters/loads/shoots/thinks about the .45 she's also going to think "that rat bastard husband of mine MADE me get this against my wishes".

Is it really worth the hassle?

Find out what Momma likes to shoot.  If it's 7.62x25mm, or 9x25mm Dillon, get a gun in the caliber Momma likes to shoot.  If she likes to shoot it, then she'll shoot it often, and will be practiced if she ever has to shoot it in anger.  If she shoots a lot, then when you bring home a new gun, she'll want to try it out rather than giving you a hard time about it.

Or you could give her a gun that you picked out that she doesn't like to shoot, so she won't.  Since she doesn't shoot it, she'll stop carrying it, and won't have it if God forbid, she ever needs it.

all good counter points.....

what are you wifes reasons for not wanting a .45?

Line breaks, man. Use them! I think I went permanently cross-eyed trying to read your post.



That being said, your wife should carry and shoot whatever she is most comfortable with, regardless of what you think or your justification for thinking it. I have my own opinions on guns and ammo, but my wife liked the Glock 42, so I bought her one and started stockpiling .380 ammo. The most important thing is that SHE CARRIES IT!



Whatever gun you have on you is better than the one you leave at home.

She should use the gun she wants to use.

This
/thread

No amount of reasoning or justification should sway anyone on what they want to carry.  

This.  Being comfortable and confident with what may save your life one day is about as personal of choice as it gets.  Be glad she is committed to carrying and let her carry what she wants.

Look at it another way:  Let's say a world class expert hands down his opinion to YOU as to what you should carry and INSIST you do what he says, and it happens to be contradictory to your own personal choice.  How would you respond to that?

Fully agree she should carry what she wants! A gun you like to shoot and carry is far more likely to be at hand than one you do not. If my wife chose to carry ( she does have the proper permit) I would let her pick what she wants. Any gun even a 22 or 25 is preferable to nothing !

Yup

First and second post nail it.

It's not your carry gun, it's hers... Let her carry what she wants

With that said I would just be happy that my wife was willing to carry, my wife has zero interest in carrying

You're putting way too much analysis into a simple problem.  Find her a handgun she shoots well, that fits her hand, and that she likes.  Buy said handgun.  If that happens to be a .380 then so be it.  Getting her something too large, heavy, uncomfortable and it will get left at the house or in the glove box instead of on her person, where it will make a difference.  A Beretta 21A in the pocket is better than a Glock 21 in the nightstand when you're out of the home......

Listen to your wife, and get the 9mm. Ammo's cheap for it anyway.

agreed - just get her whatever she's comfortable with.   Read the recent FBI on 9mm, makes a lot of sense.   I love 45 also, 9mm is better all around choice.

I'm not usually the one to be offensive but I think a little slap might be in order in this one....



Don't be stupid.  



What the others said, let her shoot what she wants to shoot and count your lucky stars that she WANTS to shoot with you.  It's a very very very very small price to pay to have another gun and ammo for the value of having your spouse be a shooting partner.  And having the peace of mind that she can defend herself when you're not around.  

You don't need +p or +P+ 9mm to be effective.  Well, I'm no expert but it sounds like maybe some more research in the area of cartridge performance might help you.  If you go to the ammo forum in the AR sections here there is a ton of good info.  

heresagoodstart

I'm a 45 fan.
My wife can hit much more consistently with 9mm.  
Shot placement is key.  

You need a shrink.

Ask yourself - will she even engage?


If you know she won't fight- give her a tazer, or OC. Otherwise just let her carry what she WILL FIGHT WITH.

Absolutely.

 

this

1:cool
2: cool; no one's ever wanted less ammo during a fight
3: ok
4: yes...but unless youre shooting 5-digit numbers of rounds a yr, this is hardly a concern
5: This is a fine theory, but stupid; shot placement and how the person responds to being shot is king...caliber/etc is way down on the list
6: this one is just retarded...get training, take some classes.

I think I didn't make it clear at all, but my wife is actually just on the fence. She really does not have a preference, and is trying to make up her mind. It's not at all that she loves the 9mm and I'm just trying to bully her into getting the 45 XDS. She shot them side by side and didn't have a clear favorite, simply saying that the 9mm is "snappier." Although I certainly believe "any gun is better than no gun" is logically true, I still firmly believe that all defensive handguns are not created equal. If she would only carry a .32 ACP and steadfastly refused to carry anything else, I'd be cool with that. However, I hold that getting a good gun in a potent caliber and then training a lot is the better answer.

I wouldn't want to be shot by a 22lr, but that DOES NOT make it an ideal defensive round.


Those of you who hold this opinion too, do you feel comfortable that standard pressure 9mm really is "enough gun?"

No such thing as a service pistol cartridge that is a "Manstopper" sorry does not exist this has been tested proven and put to rest.  No statistical or observable advantage between any service cartridge basically choose a caliber and go they are all equally weak.  Higher pressure does not translate to better performing cartridge some higher pressure rounds have a tendency to fragment, not penetrate as deep, not expand properly.  The only way you will get a "Manstopper" round is to get a CNS hit otherwise you will be relying on the pain or exsanguination to stop a threat.

Shot placement trumps all, and with modern defensive ammo in standard service caliber, capacity trumps caliber, in my opinion.

I still carry a .45 in the woods, I used to EDC a Glock 10mm until I broke my wrist and it was uncomfortable to shoot much.

Now I EDC 9mm.

Standard pressure has lower recoil, less flash, faster follow up shots, and with the right bullet actually sometimes preforms better than standard pressure.  But the differences are usually negligible to the point the standard pressure is the better cartridge because of less felt recoil and faster follow up shots.

I carry 147gr standard pressure 9mm.  So long as you stick to 9x19, .357Sig, 40SW, 45ACP/GAP, 10mm you are in the same boat as everyone else performance wise.

my wife shoots the 45 better than the 9 and likes to carry the 45 as well. if they like it they will carry it and if they don't they wont.

One thing that doesn't make sense about this post is that it seems you're getting opinions about this to help figure out what to buy her.  Or is it that she's trying to figure out what gun that you already have that she might want to carry?  If it's the former, then the type of weapon along with the caliber is what she needs to figure out.  Maybe I'm not quite understanding your post.  

But each gun is going to behave differently in different calibers and if it's a smaller gun she's after for carrying, you might not even have the option of a .45.  You might have to look at 9, .40 or maybe even a .38/.357.....  


ETA:  OK, after rereading it again....  if she said, I want a .45, does that mean you have to buy another gun?  Or you'd give her the 21 and you carry the 19?   But yeah, if you're having her shoot +p in the 19, it's going to feel snappy.  Give her some standard pressure and more than likely she will be even more comfortable with the 9 over the .45.  Probably.  Maybe not, but I always find 9mm easier to shoot than .45 in similar sized guns.  When comparing standard pressure ammo.  Well especially if the .45 is 230 grain FMJ.  Some of the lighter bullets are easier to handle.  Like 200 swc's and even 185's.  Now weather they feel lighter than a standard pressure 9mm might be a bit subjective.  

Either way, let her make the choice.  Nothing wrong with guiding, but do it very sparingly and let her come to her own decision about it.  But give her all the options available.  Within your means.  Of course I say this like I know what I'm talking about and my wife isn't really a shooter.  My Mom is though.  

This should be the final answer OP.  I started loading/shooting 9mm because my wife did and now most of my handguns are 9mm including my CCW.  45 ACP gains you nothing meaningful over 9mm for CCW with the advances in bullet technology.  9mm guns can be smaller, carry more rounds, and have less recoil than a 45ACP as well which is better for those with smaller hands and lower hand strength (like many women).

ETA: Hitting what she is aiming at is the most important thing.  I would rather my wife carry a 22lr that she hits what she is aiming at every time than even a 9mm that she can't shoot well.

Also, a local deputy decided to stop me (on property I was allowed to be on) one day and disarmed me in the process during his "questioning".  When he saw I was carrying a G26 he said "Pffff....I won't let my wife carry anything smaller than 40 S&W." which was solely based on the fact that they carry 40 S&W G22's.  The local police carry 45ACP so guess what they want their SO's to carry?

Yes it's enough gun.    Bullet technology has come sufficiently far that standard pressure 9mm and 45 essentially make the same hole and penetrate as deeply.   The important factors are:  does it penetrate deeply enough? can you shoot it well?  does it generate a decent temporary and permanent wound cavity?   On the temporary cavity "maybe" 45 has a slight edge, but it is outweighed by all of 9mms benefits.  Read the article below.

FBI link

A 32 is certainly inadequate - but you can see that.  In other words when they test the ammunition in ballistic gel, 32 auto will really not penetrate deeply enough and it will rarely expand.    9mm on the other hand, does.  You might want to check out shootingthebull410 on youtube.  Anyway, some old timers are in love with 45 and will tell you anything - every other caliber is inferior to 45 ACP.   It's just not true.

Yes I do.  Quicker followup shots that hit where you are aiming is more important than the 30-50fps more velocity you gain with +P ammunition.

The gun is her carry gun. Not your "I want you to carry this" gun. While I was still working at a lgs a solid 80% of the used guns we had were guns husbands forced upon their lady folk despite the woman's input on what she wanted to carry or shoot.

ETA:  I'm a 45 guy and carry no other cartridge when it comes to handguns...but I don't think I know everything so I don't force my PREFERENCE onto other folks.

FPNI

Fifth Post Nailed It.


This guy knows the secret to the universe.

Has she actually shot the .45 XDS?  My pastor has one and I when fondling it I can't stand the way it feels.  The texturing feels like a cheese grater and I just don't like it at all.  I don't really know how felt recoil is in it but my guess is a G19 would be a lot more comfortable gun to shoot than an .45 XDS.  Maybe someone else could comment on that.

But shooting .45 in a G21 is probably a whole different experience than an XDS.

+1

 

I carry standard pressure 147gr every day off duty  and bet my life on it

If I had my choice I would carry a 9mm on duty, but that's not a option

All right, folks, consider me slapped



Depending on which she likes better, she will be carrying a Glock 19 or XDS 4.0 in 9mm, and thanks to your input, I will rest easier with her carrying standard pressure 115gr Gold Dots when I'm not around with my 230gr Gold Dots to back her up! She likes the feel of both the XDS and Glock 19, it's just that since her liking the feel and weight of the gun and being willing to carry it are the most important things, I think slim size is very important for her to be able to carry it. Despite being 5'6", she is a Size 0/Size 2 (and yet she eats like a trucker! Man, Chinese women are great!), so a double-stack would be pretty obvious on her extremely slender frame.



As far as listening to my wife more, the fact that I do not do as much stupid stuff as I did when I was a teenager (we met at 19), is a testament to that fact. Anybody else who is married to a Chinese lady knows that the only two rules for making her happy are: 1) listen, 2) OBEY! I will now do that on the 9mm vs. 45 question

Removed - Maynard