User Panel
Posted: 9/24/2004 11:22:32 PM EDT
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It hits flesh like a .22 WMR, otherwise a pretty good gun. Caliber is, cost aside, just about the best plinking round ever devised.
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This is a weapon designed to defeat body armor. Last I heard it is illegal for civilians to possess or own. The gun itself is very tightly regulated and the 5.7 ammo even more tightly regulated. Maybe My info is out of date, I doubt it.
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... You have to be kidding right? ... Muzzle energy is about that of the 45ACP with a purported muzzle velocity at 2345 FPS. With a 20 round mag, one in the pipe and a back-up mag, you'd have an awesome weapon system. |
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... Nope. They're selling to civies now. CDNN Investments have them for $699 |
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Sure, it punches right through body armor, but it doesnt do much on the other side. It tumbles a little, but leaves a clean hole.
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There have been a few shootings with the P-90 and all were very quick one-shot stops. The difference between the P-90 and Five-seveN wounding abilities is that the P-90 shoots 200 fps faster. No, this weapon was not designed to defeat body armor; that is merely one of its design attributes. The P-90 and Five-seveN came as a result of a US Army PDW program from which the preferred ballistics were defined.
Yes, the Five-seveN is now legal, but only with the SS-192 JHP ammo. You could get lots of info from p99guy about this round, as he shot up a vest with it and more. Also, another member here was going to test it on a hog, so keep watching for that. Combat_Jack, where do you get the info that the SS-190 doesn't do much "on the other side"? Articles from Doc Roberts or Dr Fackler? I've seen all of them about this round and don't need to see them again. According to an article from Charles Petty, the P-90 penetrates 9" of flesh AFTER penetrating a Level IIA vest. The SS-190 tumbles a LOT; it is turned upright (which would mean 1" tall wound) throughout nearly the entire travel, which is 11 to 13.5 inches with the P-90. Study the below picture. Here is another post from a different message board:
And here is a nice P-90 article: www.trmagonline.com/Spring2003TR/spring2003experienceswiththefnp90.htm Anyway, the SS-190 and P-90 aren't available to the public, (not legally anyways) so SS-192 and Five-seveN is what we should be talking about. Wait 'till p99guy sees this thread; he could offer alot of info from his experiences with the latter pair. I'm with you, Winston; its awfully hard to go wrong with 20 rounds, whatever caliber. And with the fragmentation in p99guy's picture + low recoil, it sounds great. While I'm talking about the SS-192, I might as well put down a couple other rumors with these facts: Fact: The SS-192 will penetrate Level II body armor, and afterwards two thick phone books. Fact: There have been no exploding Five-seveN's; I heard from someone on Glock Talk who knew 15 different people who owned Five-seveN's and not one had heard of this. |
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most here seem to agree that the round is a very poor choice for defense..... |
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... Boy howdy, I'm sure getting mixed signals here. On one hand the cartridge has the energy of a 45ACP and ballistic vest notwithstanding, fragmentation looks impressive. Yet some say it's crap? ... |
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To quote Dr Gary Roberts: Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol. I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4’s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP’s fired from our duty 1911’s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure. The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9...... Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system. It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely. The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available? The best uses for the P90 might be for executive protection details where the threat is expected to be wearing body armor and perhaps as a PDW for vehicle crew and pilots. But then again, Im just tilting at windmills. You should buy TWO |
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Since it is a eaentiallt a .22 on D-bol is it quiet relative to a 9mm or .45a.c.p. . You wre being sarcastic about the Beretta with ball ammos stopping power, right?
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I just don't get why people refer to this article as the last word. There are just so many statements made in it that make no sense to me. Why on earth does Doc GKR compare 5.7mm to 5.56mm and 6.8mm? This is not a rifle. You cannot chamber 5.56mm or 6.8mm in a pistol, or even a magazine like the P-90's, without it being ridiculously unergonomic. True, the 5.56mm gives better performance, but it also overpenetrates and has thrice the recoil of the 5.7mm. Responding to his last sentence, the threat is not always "expected" to be wearing body armor. Another question from me: why does this article claim that "9mm JHP offers better penetration, but will not overpenetrate"? The P-90 gives 11 to 13.5 inches of penetration. The average human is 9.4 inches thick. True, sometimes a hand or arm may intervene, but the P-90 still gives more penetration than needed. Doc GKR states that the 5.7mm gives insufficient penetration, but it depends what your view of sufficient penetration is. I don't see 11 to 13.5 inches penetration as being inadequate. I may be wrong in some way, but as far as I know the wounds go like this: 9mm FMJ: 9mm wide x 9mm tall 5.7mm FMJ: 5.7mm wide x 5.7mm tall 5.7mm FMJ in tumble: 5.7mm wide x 25.4mm tall If you looked at my earlier post, you would have seen the picture I posted showing the 5.7mm in gel with 13.5 inches of penetration; it looks like the round was upright throughout nearly the entire travel. Also, Doc GKR claims that the 9mm gives better barrier penetration than the 5.7mm; unless there is something i'm not thinking of, he is wrong. If the 5.7mm will penetrate body armor so well (IIIA at 200 meters), then why wouldn't it penetrate barriers? The 5.7mm has a semi-sharp steel tip and it travels at 2346 fps. If momentum is the sole factor in barrier penetration, why won't the 9mm penetrate body armor like or better than5.7mm? Please tell me what i'm forgetting about that would make the round-nose 1,000 fps 9mm so much better at penetrating. No, Mattl, it is not quiet at all. Supposedly about as loud as a .223, according to people who own it. And Lumpy was not the one talking about the M882, Doc GKR was. What really cracks me up is how Doc GKR asks "what will the P-90 do that is not already available?"; why doesn't he ask himself? The 5.7mm's characteristics were defined by the US Army, not FN. Here is why the P-90 stands by itself: No recoil Lightweight Extremely high capacity Works on armored opponents Flat trajectory for its intended purpose (again, it was NOT intended to be a front-line weapon, we are talking about a tiny sub-machine gun and pistol) Fully ambidextrous Extremely compact Performance similar to 9mm JHP (I'll get to this later) The Five-seveN is the companion pistol to the P-90 and shares most of the above attributes. Also, it might seem logical to hate this round if it had given poor performance in a shooting, but such has not yet been the case. There have been three or four shootings with the P-90 and all have been quick one-shot stops. There has been only one human and a pitbull shot with a Five-seveN and both were stopped immediately as well. I know you'll hate this reason to defend the gun, but i'll say it anyway: the P-90 has been adopted in over 25 countries as of 2003. Users include the Dutch BBE and KCT, French GIGN, US Secret Service, and Federal Protective Service. Proof here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=176451&page=1 Here are some excerpts from an article by another user of the P-90: The Houston, TX, Police Department was the first American law enforcement agency to deploy with the FN P90 submachine gun on its SWAT team. The first time I saw a P90, I couldn’t help but notice how unique and interesting it looked. It was fun to shoot and no one could argue about the innovations the engineers at Fabrique National in Belgium had featured on this weapon. The fact remained, however, that the 5.7x28mm cartridge was unproven. We had all the energy data and gelatin shots, but had no documentation on what the round would do on a real human body. It may sound morbid, but in the tactical world the proof is in the real deal. That missing element was always in the back of our minds. Well, the jury is now in. Houston SWAT was involved with the first and only lethal engagement with the weapon to date. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. I have shot thousands of 5.7mm rounds in training and continue to deploy with the weapon on every SWAT situation and high-risk warrant I respond to. I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon. The SS190 version of the 5.7mm cartridge uses a 31-grain, steel jacketed, steel tipped, aluminum core bullet. It is capable of 2350fps and it can defeat level IIIA body armor at 200 meters. The SS190 ball is not only flat shooting, but also capable of penetrating car doors and auto-glass with minimum ricochet potential. In contrast, the bullet is designed to stay intact and start a controlled tumble once it penetrates a soft medium, thus reducing any over-penetration worries. The SS190 ball penetrates between 11 and 13.5 inches of gelatin. Upon impact with soft targets, the 5.7mm ball tumbles one time, base over point. This transfers energy and limits over-penetration. The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. When I talk to operators from other agencies about weapons, I now seldom have to explain what weapon I’m talking about when I mention the P90 as my primary. Obviously the folks at FN are getting the message out and the weapon is now familiar. If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can’t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready. The above in quotes comes from my previously posted article. Think what you want about this round, but when you downtalk it, you are to a lesser extent downtalking the many elite units who use it. |
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My 2 cents, which is all I have left after having just bought one: It's big, plastic, and fun. Too big for a carry piece. Plinks like a .22 magnum. Expensive ammo. Good candidate to replace a .22 for first-time shooters.
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It is purpose built...
I would purchase one if I could get a P90 as a companion weapon. MT |
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... Thanks all for the fantastic insight. I look at it this way, I haven't added too many nice pistols to my collection since the '94 AWB. Primarily because of the limited magazine capacities. The FN Five-seveN® is the first, real pistol making a paradigm shift because of the sunset a couple weeks ago.
... I drove over to Scottsdale Gun Club today to look at one. ... Pros: They are not big nor bulky. They appeared to be well engineered (that means a lot to me). They are light, the rounds are tiny and cute, Picatinny rail. Big tactical-glove trigger guard. Ergonomically correct grip. Sights OK. ... Cons: Moderately expensive.The slide is not all steel, the outer "shell" is a polymer. Not sure exactly why they did that except perhaps for weight reduction. I'm not used to affecting pistol safeties with my index finger , and the $39 (20) round magazines on on back order. Puny looking barrel. ... Oh well, I think I'll buy one anyway. For the novelty if nothing else. |
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I can make it perfectly clear on the performance of the round.
We've been discussing for several years now the search for improvement on the terminal performance of the 5.56mm round in military use. A 62gr 5.56mm bullet at 3100fps isnt giving impressive performance according to some end users, yet a 31gr bullet at 2130fps IS going to give good performance? HOW???? |
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As someone who has used 5.56 in combat within the last year, I can say that it is more than capable of doing its job, thats with both M16A2 and M249. I havent used the 5.7 on anything alive, but Ill make sure to shoot something with it if Im not in the field during hunting season this year. |
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You win.
You played the been there, done that trump card. Im assuming the entire driving force behind the 77 OTM and the 6.8 SPC was a fluke perpetrated by a bunch of inexperienced idiots who havent been on the internet enough. |
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Ill never see a 6.8 in my unit because Im not special, but I do plan on buying a upper chambered in it for the house. I never said 6.8 isnt a good idea, I will argue the fact that 5.56 is a perfectly good caliber for the military, its been proven since vietnam and worked for me just fine.
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I think the only solution here is for me to get one, and then wander around Philly late at night.
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Absolut, I will address your posts below:
1. I have already read this article from Dr Fackler and it doesn't really bring anything new to the table that is not mentioned in the Doc GKR article. 2. The post from Troy is complete misinformation. Neither the P-90 nor the Five-seveN have had poor LEO sales -- I will get to this later. LEO's have NOT had failures to stop with this round. There has been a friendly fire incident with the Five-seveN, but NO failures to stop. If you were to ask Troy right now about it, I'm quite sure he would tell you there have been no FTS's. An FN rep in a old thread a while back denounced this rumor privately with Troy. I can show you the post if you don't believe me. Troy also claims that "the only reason the P-90 is effective is because of burst capability". I have two reasons to believe that Troy posted this without thinking it out first. ONE: the few shootings with the P-90 have been one-shot stops. TWO: who cares if it takes a burst of 5.7mm's to kill? This weapon holds fifty rounds, and the Five-seveN holds twenty. Obviously, in a shooting you shoot until the threat has been stopped. That goes with any gun. A P-90 can afford a 5-8 burst if it needs it. You'd still have 42-45 rounds left in the magazine. According to Troy's "poor" P-90 performance, you would have enough firepower with one P-90 magazine to kill about 10 people. BUT, it has not taken 5-8 rounds in shootings. 3. Nothing new. Lumpy already posted this article. Here is the list of all the departments using either the P-90 or Five-seveN: Houston, TX PD Jacksonville, FL PD Salt Lake City, PD MO St Hwy Patrol Creve Coeur, MO PD Edmond, OK PD Little Rock, AR PD North Little Rock, AR PD Burmingham , AL PD Benton County, AR Sheriffs Dept Bentonville, AR PD Belleview, NE PD Olathe, KS PD Palm Beach County, FL Sheriffs Dept US Dept of Immigration & Naturalization Richland County, SC PD Sioux Falls, SD SWAT Batesburg/Leesville, SC PD Davis County, UT Sheriffs Dept Pasco County, FL Sheriffs Dept Zephyr Hills, FL PD Charleston County, SC Sheriffs Dept Oakdale, MN PD Lexington, SC PD Anderson County, SC Sheriffs Dept Washoe County, NV Sheriffs Dept Whiteoak Borough, PA PD City of Daleville, AL Greenwood County, SC Sheriffs Dept Camden, SC PD Dallas, TX PD Austin, TX PD Slidell, LA PD Davidson, NC PD Duluth, GA PD It is current as of 2003. I need to confess: I just hate it how people condemn a round just because it isn't high-caliber. If caliber was the deciding factor in wounding ability, we would be using .45 in our rifles instead of 5.56mm. I'm not saying the 5.7mm is "all that", but I AM saying that you should keep an open mind when there is evidence of its possible potential. You just need to get your head clear of two myths: "caliber always equates to effectiveness", and "change is always bad". I'm almost sure this post will be greeted with the same ballistics articles. |
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... A fellow ARCOMMER and I went into a local watering hole last night to ogle womenz, swig a couple beers and eat some buffalo wings.
... This subject came up and he made a profound observation about the conundrum of buying the pistol with all its controversy on ARFCOM. His point was, with the relative newness of the pistol and cartridge, just how would I know about its performance without first-hand experience with one. ... Excellent point. Buy one. Put her through a battery of my own tests, personally appreciate how it handles at the range and the ergonomics of carry and concealment. ... Then, if perchance I felt it didn't meet my requirements I could always sell it. At least I would then feel a bit more qualified to comment on its performance from firsthand knowledge. Simple. |
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WW,
Do you need some suggestions for the terminal bullet performance tests? Like names of people to shoot. |
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No. What makes you ask me that? I realize it sounds like I know all the statistics, etc like an FN rep would, but if you take the time you could find all and more of the information i've posted, such as who uses the guns, etc. (Some of it even posted on this site a long time ago) My argument comes from my own observations of this subject. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I just found Troy's post misleading and inaccurate when examined in greater detail. I don't think its too big an accusation to accuse someone of posting information that wasn't well thought out. Troy seems to be the one making bold comments: a year or two ago he and a few others were threatened with lawsuits by FN for comments like the one you posted from him. Don't be too quick to quote someone without first thinking out and researching what it is they're claiming. |
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How do they fit in 30 rounds? Three rows of ammo? |
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They are getting rid of theirs, but I think it is due to the cost of ammo. |
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Thats not entirely true; yes, I have stepped up to defend it/them several times, but never promoted them here AFAIK. I can't help it -- people here are talking about these guns all the time now and its a controversial subject. I see 5.7mm threads here constantly and I haven't seen one in which the guns were not illogically put down. Every now and then i've got to post my 2 cents. Thats what winston asked for. |
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Ballisticly the 5.7x28mm from a pistol IS about the same as a 22Mag. FROM A RIFLE. From a pistol the .22Mag. gets about 1600 fps the 5.7 gets 2100 fps, hardly the same as a 22mag. I think the general concept behind the 5.7 is a good one if they can get the bullets to fragment 90% of the time. It would be devastating and at the same time because of low recoil and lack of thru and thru penetration it would also be a "safe" weapon for someone with a CCW or a LEO conserned with the welfare of inocent bystandars. Buy what you want, if you've got the money go for it, I'd like to have one someday. I'm waiting for the Government Model(same model as used by the Seceret Service) to hit the market.
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That sounds possible, but there are a couple more differences. The 5.7mm is made to maximize damage during "tumble" by having a 1-inch long projectile, and p99guy's test showed that it tumbles very consistently. The other difference is that 5.7mm, even SS192, will pierce body armor and hard objects such as car doors much better. |
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My point was to all these "ballistics experts" that keep saying that "it's just a 22Mag.". Well, yes and no. If you're talking about vel. from a rifle length barrel for the Mag. vs a pistol length barrel for the 5.7 then yes, it is the same vel. but when you talk pistol vs pistol there's a very big difference. Also, as you have pointed out, the projectile design is very different from the bullet used in a 22 Mag. I like the idea of the 5.7x28mm and can't wait to save up the money to pick one up. I'd not feel a bit "under gunned" carring one for my CCW gun. In fact, with a 20 round mag and another in reserve I'd feel real comfortable about carring it. P99guy has proven that this little round can do some real damage, much more then any 22 Mag that I've ever seen so we really need to drop that comparison because it's really getting old. |
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I concur with the last statement, if there should be any argument it should be against the round it was designed to replace, the military issue 9mm ball ammo used in every military issue beretta and sig in the defense of this nation.
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Shhh! It is magic!! And legend!!! Don't question it!!! |
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I have this gun and love it. If the peoples Republix of NJ allowed for CCW it would be my carry gun. It ticks me off when all of these so called experts judge the gun without even firing it. As for the OLD debate as to its penatration. Well... Once zombies start to walk the earth I will let you know.
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Seems like $16.50 to $17.00 is about the best ammo prices I've found so far.
JR |
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So what I'm gathering about this round is that it's both the best and the worst ammo on the market, that both lives up to and completely undershoots its own hype. It is better, and worse, than 5.56 nato, and would be a rival or not even compare to the lethality of a common .45.
Always a pleasure to mingle amongst the algonquin round table of ballistic geniuses here on ARFcom. Carry on, top men, carry on. |
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Nobody is claiming that its the best, nor are they claiming that its better than 5.56mm, AFAIK. But there is no doubting its potential after reading this recent post from another member: As one who has actually used the P90 for tactical operations I can say that it is a devastating round despite its small size. From our initial training, I recall the fact that no one has survived being shot by the P90. One cannot (logically) argue with people who have extensive experience with it. |
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